Thanks R, that was fairly exhausting, but conclusive - I had to send some of them home due to it being my supper-time.

Right - well to start with, you can't teach skill, you can only impart knowledge. This may sound a bit cynical, but that is one of the reasons why I have always been - up to a point - completely open when asked about my techniques. It is all very well knowing how something is done, but learning to do it well, and quickly, with, in some cases, your own slant, is another matter. I know how you play a piano, but I can't do it.

You are right about the picture being worth a thousand words, as long as the drawing is accurate, clear and unambiguous. Being multi-skilled, I was asked to erect a tipi for a client last week. I had already erected it and taken it down for storage last summer, but couldn't rely on memory to re-build it, and we had to down-load another set of instructions. Now, I wish the idiot who drew the diagrams and wrote the instructions had been there to witness my rage at the completely miss-leading scribbles. Both technical illustrators and authors have to be accurate, and I'm not sure why (and wasn't aware) authors are paid more, or why illustrators are not more highly regarded. Cheap, powerful software is one reason, I suppose - and that is not a dig at digital - but it does mean that it is probably easier than ever to produce simple illustrations with only basic training. Obviously I am not refering to complex stuff, or illustrations that need a high standard of colouring and lighting. I imagine that the need to be able to read engineering drawings is diminishing too, as CAD takes over, and illustrations can be pulled directly from the design files.

I had to design a small logo for a die-cast collectors magazine some years ago, a rectangular plate, mounting screws at the corners, raised and polished rim and vintage-style script in the centre saying 'Classic Commercials', the field filled with red 'enamel'. A nice little fun job, not worth much, but done for a friend who was a contributor to the mag. to accompany his article. It probably took the best part of a day to design the typeface, draw it and paint it, but I was told later that the Art Director, who had only recently got her degree and the post, couldn't understand how I had done it without a computer, in fact, I think, refused to believe that it was done by hand! Last week there was a feature on TV about architecture students going to life-drawing classes to improve their visualizing skills. It helps, and often it is quicker, if you can DRAW!



I know that illustrating is a dying art, but you can't artificially prolong the teaching of 'skills' that are redundant. I can see some people adopting it as a fascinating and satisfying hobby, and in time there might be a renewed interest in it, like making wicker baskets. I certainly don't think of you as an idiot for carrying on, you obviously have a passion for it, like Mick144, who's wife wants him to get a 'proper' job!

To get back, briefly, to the matter of my recent dental treatment, I'm no longer dribbling and mumbling, but I've got serious jaw-ache due to having my mouth wide-open for an hour and a half. I have renewed respect and admiration for those girls who work in the porn industry...

They use abdominal muscles nowadays to shoot cucumbers and bananas at you down at the Banana Bar in Amsterdam.

Hmmm, I know there is a "joke" thread somewhere on here,..... but think of the guy walking through the red light district one evening.
He saw a tarty blonde behind one of the brightly red lit windows, and rapped on the pane asking "wotsit cost??"
The tart said 50 euros.
His reply ?

That's not much for double glazing!!!

P.S. your screws are good Tony !!!.......ahem

Any praise gratefully received, Marc!

Re Tony's screws:

I was heavy-duty into 3-D CAD 20-odd years ago and one project in training had the class afix hex nuts to a series of studs. I dutifully complied but then thought the rendering looked rather odd...sameness with all the nuts perfectly aligned. I tweaked each nut a random number of degrees in rotation to better reflect what a real image might show. The result was much more pleasing to the eye.

Don't remember if it scored a coup with the instructor. Most likely not.

I can relate to most of that. Things have changed somewhat over the years.

I spent a few years in the late 70's and early 80's working at Hunting Engineering in Ampthill. In those days Tech Pubs was full of drawing boards, Illustrators and a few Graphic Designers. Most of the Tech Authors were ex RAF. It wasn't a bad place to work as we involved in some good projects, mainly for the MOD. I did rebel against the military attitude of some of the bosses, they sometimes forgot they weren't dealing with Squaddies any more!

I'm still producing Fitting Instructions for a company that produces high end shower enclosures. I've been with them for years, but the company was taken over by an American Company who also own MIRA showers. MIRA have there own in house people producing their instructions. They certainly aren't old style illustrators. Little idea of line weights, perspective and ellipse angles etc.

I worked with a guy from Cornwall when I was at Industrial Artists in Hitchin around 1976. I can't remember his name, but he was bloody good!

I think you would remember if you had!

The odd thing is that, yes, it does look better if there is a slight variation in hex or slot alignment, but whenever I install anything with visible fastners - light switches and sockets for example - I am fanatical about lining the slots up, either vertically or horizontally, depending on tightness or, in some cases, the direction of the major light source... I can't believe I wrote that, it sounds like obsessive compulsive dissorder. Nurse!

When I was at Luton Tech. most of the guys were from Hunting, but I thought it was Hunting Aviation, was that different? Your comments about line weight, perspective, etc., certainly rang a bell. It is even worse when assembly instructions are produced for multi-national use and eschew the written word all together, some of them are barking mad, or make one feel so...

I don't remember you mentioning Industrial Artists before, Alan, I think a 'lad' called Garry went there from James Allington, and it may be that Fred **** was there, I'll have to check his surname, I meet him socially every now and then, and should be more sure of the details!

Hi A,

Most of the guys from Cornwall went to Techdot in Germany but one or two, myself included, started our life apprenticeship at Lonsdale Technical. They had some rubbish contracts because they were so cheap but then again they weren't a bad starting point.

Er, re that comment, to my embarrassment I think I mis-read 'hex' as 'her', so just ignore it.

I was At Techdot in Mainz for while in about 1979 - sent out from Industrial Artists. We were doing work on the UniMog.

The guy I worked with was from Bodmin - he used to go home at weekends. (I still can't remember his name).

Huntings had various different arms. Engineering was weapon systems

The shower enclosure fitting instructions I produce were originally designed with no words as they were selling in Europe. They stopped that when the £ went sky high, which is fortunate as the designs were getting more and more complicated and it was virtually impossible to show how these things go together without a written word or two. Since they were taken over they are now back selling in Europe but are doing it properly by having them translated into 7 languages. I've had to redesign most of them to make all the words fit. A bit of a nightmare but at least it helps pay some bills.

When I left Luton Tech (or Barnfield where it ended up) I went to VAP in Kidlington for a year. Just after I left, VAP sponsored Andy Wallace in Formula Ford and Tom Walkinshaw opened up across the road - perfect timing not!!!!! I went to Industrial Artist in 1976 and was put on loan to Techdot and then Huntings. Huntings made me an offer I couldn't refuse so it was good to be making some reasonable money at last

The funny thing about Industrial Artists was that it had full MOD clearance - signing the Official Secrets Act, bars on the windows, secure doors etc. Peter Clifford (the MD) had his office on the first floor which was above a chemist. At least twice IA was broken into, a hole made in the floor to access the Pharmacy below to nick the drugs. A bit embarrassing on the security front

I'm not saying it is impossible to illustrate assembly instructions and use no words, but it puts huge pressure on the illustrator - especially if, unlike you, Rancethebus, me and others - the illustrator is inexperienced, as the drawings have to be comprehensible and step-by-step, nothing left out, and no steps in the wrong order!

Ah, Barnfield! I missed that, I ended my course in George Street, or near, can't remember the exact address, in a big old Victorian building, on the top floor. We used to get some great up-draughts in the narrow gap between us and the building opposite, such that you could launch a flotilla of paper helicopters and with luck they would rise and fall for some minutes, often dropping below the windows of the floor below, then rising again, accompanied by distant laughter. That stopped for a while after we had a visit from an irate lecturer who shouted at an innocent Mike Wrigglesworth that he couldn't teach accountancy with all his students looking at the windows...

Peter Clifford, I remember the name... Hermitage Road, and the chemists is still there.

I started at Luton Tech in an old Victorian hat factory on Guilford street. There was a pub next door which was great (even though I was only 17!). We then moved to a Portakabin in the grounds of Icknield school and moved into the new department at Barnfield for the last 2 years.

Peter Clifford had a reputation for being a bit tight with money. The day after I passed my driving test I was told to deliver some work to Chevron Oil in the middle of London. I was given one of the company cars - a knackered Ford Cortina Estate which PC had been using as his own car. It was pouring with rain and as I pulled out of the car park I could see in the reflection of the shops across the road that one of the lights was out. I went back into IA to get some cash for a new bulb - I never paid for anything as I would never get it back. PC caught me and said don't worry I've adjusted the main beam to dipped. A new one on me, the lights were all over the place. It was like that for months until it was fixed for the MOT. Anyway halfway down the A1M a windscreen wiper falls off fortunately dropping to the bottom of the windscreen. Having fixed that I get to Chevron, hand over the work and set off back to Hitchin. Within minutes the handbrake cable breaks. So he's me in the middle of London in the pouring rain, having had my driving licence for all of one day, with a car with illegal lights, faulty wipers and no handbrake. When I got back I received a bo***king for being late as PC wanted to go home - oh the joys of being an illustrator. I nearly got the sack as I forgot to tell PC that I'd left the car in gear and he promptly drove into the wall when he started it up

Of course I meant Guilford Street! What am I like? So, same building! I had four years in the main Tech, top floor again, I've no idea why we were moved out, perhaps, as we know now, Graphic Design was considered more important - I bet they didn't know what to do with the DeVilbiss compressor and all those receivers...

I tried to avoid lunchtime drinking, as I do now, it doesn't suit me, but I would occasionally weaken. It was surprising how quickly the afternoon would slip by with four or five pints of Red Barrel inside, sitting there with a numb face and a couldn't-care-less attitude...

Edited to say I really liked the driving tale! The things you go through...

I think the reason for moving was a lack of space and the School of Art was moving to Barnfield although it took a bit of time to build. We finally moved into brand new studios with new furniture and modern facilities. It was good and I think Mike Wrigglesworth was pretty pleased with it. Even had piped in airlines for the airbrush

Checked, Alan, Fred White. Ring a bell?

Afraid not. Mind you a lot of staff had left just before I arrived.

Was he called John Mabin?

No, but he was working in Mainz when I was there - He drove like a lunatic!

Euhm,

Theo Page's Kieft stillborn GP. That should be Godiva up in the front.

Tony I really like that plate. It reminds me a lot of the work of Michael English who was an absolute expert in "realism."

Well, thanks! I have a Michael English book, and somewhere a couple of big prints, actually rather too large, but I find that hyper-realism wears a bit thin after a while, and obviously the plate could have been much more 'finished'. However, it was used on the front and back cover at 104mm wide, and five times inside at 27mm, so it served its purpose! I have thought about having a stab at hyper-realism, but it's more a case of 'I wonder if I can do it?' rather than a burning desire. As I mentioned many, many posts ago, when an early- in fact my first - attempt at a colour cutaway was dismissed as a photograph I determined to loosen up a bit, and try to keep a 'painterly' feel, even with an airbrush.

It was nice, every now and then, to have a small job to do, and the freedom to play around with typography and colour.

He had a huge smash while at Cornwall Tech. He had a Minivan then. He went into the photographic laboratory with two others that were inolved in the crash and with lighting, highlighted the scars on there faces. They then put in personal injury claims to insurers of the driver of the car that had pulled out in front of them on Bodmin Moor. From what I gather he is still in Germany.

When is he up for parole?

Of no great interest, but the rough for the 'plate', plus an alternative, rather poncey 'S'.

Another Theo Page, 1966 Cooper Maserati

Thanks for those, Marc. it does surprise me how Theo Page's artwork changes so much, as if he was loosing interest. I doesn't look so much to me that it was varying deadlines, you don't really change your style under pressure, you just cut corners, leave things out.

See what you mean Tony, although the detailing around the engine and gearbox is neat
here is Theo's 1964 Cooper Coventry Climax

I think a bit too beefy up front, unless its because the scan there is darker

Another Cooper Coventry Climax 1964 by Theo Page



Ibsen

For macoran and CSGPR, as requested. The scans were done at the same size, so it should be straight forward splicing the two together, Marc.

Well done vadim! I forget, sometimes, how massive the rear tyres were compared to the fronts.

I was wondering Tony. Now that we have the Shadow, are all the illustrations you did for Motoring/LAT on here now?

Just Great

Just had a scary thought.

Tony:

You've provided us with a fine cutaway of the Shadow. Our thanks. Maybe I missed it somewhere as to the model and year but will assume it was the 1973 version. Of course, Peter Revson died at Kyalami testing in early 1974 in the Shadow with the root caused believed to be a suspension component failure.

Did you ever document anything that had you pause and think, 'Hmmm... That doesn't look quite right.'? And it came to pass...

You will, of course, be excused from naming names if you so choose. Perfectly understandable.

Abarth 2000 Sport Spyder by Franco Rosso



Ibsen

I have just found this thread and am genuinely sitting here with a smile on my face.

As en ex-engine designer, my personal favourites were the beautiful paintings I recall seeing, especially in Car & Driver / Road & Track in the 1970s and 80s. These were paintings of the exteriors of engines and were characterised by the artist's scrawled pencil notes.

The closest match to this style that I have seen is the painting undertaken by Alan Crisp of a Bugatti engine. This painting is owned by Peter Agg (of Trojan McLaren fame) who at the time it was created (1976) owned several racing and road-going Bugattis. My posting skills are insufficient to display Alan Crisp's painting.

Can anyone name the artist(s) of my favoured paintings with the pencilled notes?

Whilst posting, may I add another couple of artists to the list of cutaway specialists? Lawrie Watts - most notable for his motorcycle engines - but there are many examples of his car cutaways in David Dixon's 2006 biography of Lawrie Watta called 'Watts My Line?' (Redline Books). Another cutaway artist called John Hancox is mentioned on the jacket.

Ray Battersby

Who is Franco Rosso, Ibsen? His work looks so much like Bruno Betti. That is a cool cutaway.

Tony,

Franco Rosso is a very good italian artist. His works show up in the Quattroruote magazine and in various Editoriale Domus publications.

And here is a CD Panhard Le Mans 1964 cutaway by G. Gedo.



Ibsen

That Panhard CD is very interesting. Right hand drive on a French car and two spare wheels. Presumably that's what the regulations stipulated then.

I was just about to say something very similar! The French must be responsible for the most small, lightweight, innovative designs, but I'm not sure you would relish an accident in any of 'em! Nice to see, though, and nice to have the opportunity to draw something different.

Ray, it sounds like the type of illustration that Bob Freeman did, but I don't think it is him you are referring to, there was/is an American illustrator with a similar style, not so much in line and colour, but with annotation. No doubt someone knows exactly who you are thinking of...

There have been moments, MC, but intuition isn't the best measure of engineering design, and that is all I have. One or two chassis designs from the seventies had features that made me wince slightly in that they had what looked like an area of weakness, but they were designed by reputable designers and I don't remember any accidents or injuries caused by a failure in that area.

What I can tell you is that for a while my published work seemed to put a hex on vehicles, Motoring News only had to appear with a cutaway in it and the next race would see that car eliminated, or fail in some way, to the point where I thought we might be able to influence the outcome of a championship!

To Rancethebus, the answer is no!

Mercedes W194 300 SL 1952 cutaway by S. Wesner (?)



Ibsen

You are not alone there, Tony - a craftsman friend of mine always reckoned it's a quick way to determine whether the bloke you've had in to do the work has served his time and is any good or not. Years later his words rang true when I visited my mothers house to see some electrical work and I deduced from the RSO (Random Slot Orientation) that her electrician's work might not be up to spec. Sure enough, when I removed the cover plate to connect up a cooker, I was disgusted to see the way he'd run wires in the wall at an angle and even his removal of insulation from the wire was sloppy. There are tons of such tricks that the true craftsman uses to neaten his work up and I guess it's true regardless of whether you are an illustrator or plumber.


As a working draftsman who often draws up aircraft repairs with dozens of fasteners, that tip about subtly orienting hexes is something I look forward to trying this at the next opportunity. Any other'Tricks OF The Trade' you are willing to pass on to us?

I worry slightly, IM, that there may be scallywags who bodge the job then cover their tracks with some careful MSA (Meticulous Slot Alignment), but in general I think tradespeople who don't bother with basic neatness and safety inside are equally lazy and haphazard outside.

Good luck with the SVHO (Subtle Variation in Hex Orientation), I'm sure Manfred will be able to help you tweak your nuts.

I hope Anders will be the next person to post a comment...

3 days without any posts? Is everybody on vacation or what?

I found some stuff looking around on the web:

VW K70:


MGB V8:


There is a bit missing in the middle. Has anybody the full thing?

Ha ha! I was waiting for Bonde to get post #2000, I don't know if anyone else was! Oh well, D-M, it's yours now, and interesting, thanks.

It could be a case of - 'You got a bunch of guys here about to turn blue...'!