A friend asked for help identifying the following two images, but I am afraid I am stumped


©The GP Library


©The GP Library

Photo 1 is a Ferrari, but who, what, where and when?
Photo 2 is Fangio in an Alfa 158 or 159, but where and when? I can't find a match for the race number that looks like this.

Thanks in advance
Rob

The right-hand one looks - at first glance - like Silverstone to me...

Yes Stu - 1950 International Trophy I think. Fangio carried 2 in that race.

Looks like Ascari in the Ferrari.

Indeed. Pau 1951 ?

i pretty sure that its at the Gueux corner(reims)

Why stumped ?????????????????
Click the 1st pic and its says Ferrari 375 V12 Francia.................ergo Pau
Click the second pic and it says Alfa 159 Grand Bretagne............ Silverstone springs to mind ???
look up the races held and you've got the guilty drivers as well ???

Ha! Now I've looked, it actually says '1951alfaromeo159cl8granbretaa2' on the second pic - but fair play to you, as you were the only one to spot it!

I agree with Philippe - it's Reims for the Ferrari photo. In The French Grand Prix by David Hodges there is a shot (p147) of Farina passing thgrough Gueux in the 1950 race, and the building in the background is very similar to the one in Rob's shot.

WOOOO... did I ever overshoot that corner !!! sorry folks

A picture of Gueux corner from 1994 :

OK, let's see if I can get out of this without looking a complete fool

First up, the "1951 Francia" and "1951 Gran Bretagne" in the filenames refered to the Grand Prix of that year. I did not believe this, but did not alter the filenames.

Photo 1. It cannot be 1950 at Reims because Ferrari withdrew the entries and DNA.
I have images of the Ferrari's in the 1951 French GP and the drivers are wearing hard helmets, not canvas helmets (except Whitehead). Ascari definitely had a hard helmet. The lack of number on the car led me to believe that it is not a GP.. that stumped me. So is it Pau or Reims? What year and what race?

Photo2. I must get my eyes tested! I was looking for an Alfa number 4!!! Now I see #2 and it is obvious.

OK, Photo 2 sorted, but still doubts on Photo 1.
Rob

If there is a light band around the nose (arrowed), and the race numbers were only on the right of the car, it could be Ascari in #12 Ferrari 375 at Reims in 1951.


©The GP Library

Maybe a soft helmet during practice?
Rob

or Villoresi ,he was an oldtimer and it was often very hot at Reims

I thought it was Reims but the Ferrari seems to lack the twin radius arms of the de dion rear suspension. Could it be the 1950 F2 race?

According to Hodges Ascari practised in the 3.3 litre V12 - best time 2 min 42.4 sec - but it was then withdrawn. With the apparent absence of any visible number, my hunch would be that the shot is from 1950 practice.

Edit: I hadn't spotted Roger's post when I posted the above. I now think he is probably right.

Edit edit: According to Tanner and Nye the prototype 3.3 litre which appeared at Spa and Reims 1950 still had swing-axle rear suspension.

maybe Peter Whitehead he was driving an old model

philippe
I don't think it is Whitehead. As you can see, the Ferrari is different (a 125) and he carried full numbers.



Rob

The Ferrari is a tipo GP49, the car introduced at Monza 1949, and substituted at Monza 1950 by the new tipo 375. The GP49 was run in 3 versions, with 1.5 s/c engine, 2.0 s/c (Argentina), and later in 1950 with the first version of the Lampredi engine with 3.3 litres (tipo 275).
Based on the layout of exhaust I'm pretty sure this is the 275 version, which has been used only twice - by Ascari at Spa, and 2 weeks later for some testing before the French GP at Reims. The building indeed looks like Gueux corner.

By no means this is a tipo 375 or a 166 F2 from 1950, because both cars had a DeDion rear end.

Based on the previous posts, that seems fairly conclusive.
Thanks Michael (and everyone).

You were all so good, how about these from my 'Uknowns' folder?

HWM of Stirling Moss, but where and when?
Ferrari, possibly 1952
BRM P15 Peter Collins? Where and when?

Rob

The Ferrari 500 looks like Ascari, Modena 1952. The wall in the background is rather unique.

On page 212 of DCN's B.R.M. Vol 1 there is a photo of Collins in Type 15 number 97 in the Formule Libre race at Snetterton on 28 May 1955. I think this might be the answer.

Thanks Michael. If it is 1952 Modena then #4 would be Luigi Villoresi. IIRC Ascari had a blue helmet most of the time.
Rob

But the nose grille is typical from the Tipo 500 1951, so Villoresi at Modena 1951!

Well, H.W.M. looks like '51 model, and in that case straw bales lead me to believe it could be Genoa race...

Actually, I took a look at Stefan's F2 results, and (apart from 2-3 races where # is unknown) this seems to be the only time Moss had #20 on his H.W.M. in '51- 500th Columbus' anniversary race in Genoa on 20th May...

And you forget the third time: Albi 1950!

Checked the photo in DCN's book and that looks like the one. Why didn't I think to look there?
Thanks Tim

Didn't HWMs look a bit different at the start of that race? http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?p...430#post1790430

HWM, 1950 car, Moss GP di Roma 1950.

Correct! I still didn't update my files....

Correct!

The original pic in this thread is of Ascari in the 3.3 Ferrari 275 and was taken in the original Gueux Corner at Reims-Gueux. Several of these pix were either taken by Geoff Goddard or came from his collection - now The GP Library...

DCN

Apologies Doug.
I wasn't aware of the source, just helping a friend. Let me know which ones and I'll place a credit.
Rob

I'm late here but if you have some more fifties pictures for identification I will try to help.