That angle of Tony Godfrey's head, adpoted by very few riders, never looked 'right' to me.

Interesting point Paul. Most didnt/dont. So, do riders angle their heads to keep the horizon reasonably level in order to better measure how far to crank it over? It's all sort of instinctive....mmm never really thought about it. All you old racers out there should have a view?

Russell

As a motorcyclist (note I loath the term 'biker') of some 45yrs now, I have always adopted the Rex Butcher style. I've tried the other way but it just doesn't seem right to me. I've even seen one or two riders with their heads canted completely the opposite way, and that does look odd.

Paul

That riding style (Godfrey) never seemed to make much sense to me...... I would have thought it was easier to balance yourself and keep your bearings if your head/eyes/ears were sort of horizontal?

doesn't the human brain want to keep itself level & balanced via the use of the fluid in the ears? so why would you confuse it by tilting your head and making everything seem cockeyed?

I tried it a few times, because I saw a 'fast' rider doing it and thought that must be the way forward, and nearly fell off. Went back to what I know and promptly dubbed said rider a 'wierdo'

But then having spoken to a few geezers that raced in the seventies...they cant get their head around hanging your bum out of the seat in the bends...to me (brought up on Schwantz style 80's/90's racing) it just seems crazy sitting bolt upright, arse firmly planted in the seat. How do you gauge your angle of dangle, man? do you not lean the bike farther if you dont hang off, thus riding it off the edge of the tyre?

I guess the lesson here is, what works for one may not work for another....find your groove and stick with it!

Now theres a topic for you to cover...the wierdest (sorry, most Unorthodox) riding styles through the years. can you think of any?

got one for you already! Giancarlo Falappa...hung off the Wrong way, Almost Motocross style...looked like he was going to bin it at every corner....

PS. Paul, is it just me, or does the term 'biker' conjour up images of bar brawls, ape hangers and shit tattoos?

Brian Ball : used to hang his body, from the hips up, waaay inboard of the bike without climbing off the bike very far..... but only on right handers !

Like you Paul, I detest the term "biker". As Leggy says, conjours up all sorts of images, mostly negative ones, and puts all motorcyclists in a bad light.

For me the first rider to move away from the conventional rider style (Surtees, Hailwood, Minter) was John Cooper who really got his backside well and truly off the seat. The theory of course is that with the skinny racing tyres of those days, with the body mass hung off the bike, the bike was more vertical so with more rubber on the road. Now of course they hang off to get their knees down, a gauge as to how far they are leaned over I guess.

Biker. To me a 'biker' is a middle aged man who with the kids grown up and left home, renews his youth by buying, after years of not having a bike (and the last one was a worn out Tiger Cub anyway), a Fire Blade with all the colour co-ordinated leathers, black visor, £400 race replica helmet and so on. Then rides around like an idiot, usually to the local motorbike shop/cafe where they'll stand and swop stories about how they took this corner and so on.

The fatalities of this age group - 40 to 50yrs - is the highest of them all.

I've never let fashion dictate my motorcycling. I've a white Honda Pan European with reflective stripes, wear a white open face helmet, and textile jacket and trousers. In 2006 I rode 16,000 miles around the US in six months and prefer to spend my summer holidays riding to far off places rather than laying on beaches. But then that's just me.

So you're a copper then.....



But then again Paul....(and i've had these conversations with other club racers)... These 50 year old wannabe Rossi's, come in very handy to us clubbies. They tend to change thier leathers/boots/gloves with the seasons, like a chelsea fan changes their kit. it is quite possible to pick up some good quality leathers unscuffed or mangled dirt cheap on ebay....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
[B]For me the first rider to move away from the conventional rider style (Surtees, Hailwood, Minter) was John Cooper who really got his backside well and truly off the seat. The theory of course is that with the skinny racing tyres of those days, with the body mass hung off the bike, the bike was more vertical so with more rubber on the road. Now of course they hang off to get their knees down, a gauge as to how far they are leaned over I guess.

Isn't it apparent from contemporary pics that while Minter rode in a fifties style i.e. knees aginst the tank, bum not slidding off the saddle, Hailwood, Read, Cooper, Degens and a host of others had a more knees out, arse at least partially off the seat, kind of style? I think I can remember the m/c press running a story to the effect that Geoff Duke considered the 'modern' riding style of Phil Read as being unsuited to the Gilera.

A bit like this. Paul Smart and Denis Ainsworth also had hang off styles, perhaps not quite as extreme as Ball's. Am I alone in thinking that given the equipment and support that he had, Brian should have gone a lot further? I can remember him with his TDIC on the Brands short circuit when being repeatedly outridden on the wiggly bits by an unknown 7R rider and only ever getting past via the extra squirt of the Yam on the staights - he still lost though.

"So you're a copper then..... "

Well for twenty years I was but that's just a coincidence to my bike and apparel.

Actually, the wheel has done a full circle where Brian Ball´s style is concerned. The riders of today have very much the same style, body well inside the bike, the only difference being that they place their toes on the foot rest and have, thanks to the tyres, a far greater angle of lean which brings their knees in contact with the ground. I always thought Brain was a ground breaker where style was concerned.

Evolution?

Now it's the knee not the toe that dictates the lean.

What will it be in ten years time?

More than 1200 pictures from 1949 until 1970 mostly from the Dutch-TT-Assen at Drents Archief.

More to come next year.

Thanks for that - wonderful

Fantastic - Thank you

First picture I looked at was Bob Brown Norton - June 59.

Brings back lot of memories for an old git like me, I was 12 years old in 59 and what an impression racing had on me. Every other week I was watching men like Bob battling with the rest of my heros.

Brilliant archive.

yes,absolutely brilliant, I went in 1964 and good pics from that year....mind you they are all excellent.Nice pic Bjorn of Georg Aeurbacher putting his BMW into his Volks transporter and I still think Chris Vincents BMW was a fine looking machine.

Hi, As an avid reader of this thread it's clear you guys know a thing or three about racing.

So does anyone know the history of the Westminster Racing Club which used to be held in a meeting hall in Marsham Street W1 opposite the Government offices?

I remember there were a quite few famous faces when I went there in the late 1950's including Frank Perris, Frank Sheene and his boy. Tom Thorpe, Ian Goddard, Fred Neville, Richard Wyler & the guys from Ecurie Bloggs to name but a few.

One occassion a few actresses turned up and I remember Gyla Marzovsky (?), Rudi Thalhammer and a couple of famous 'chair' men as well.

I think Frank was the caretaker apart from being a great tuner of Bultaco and Montesa's so he may have organised the venue.

I found my old racing helmet with the badge on it (a picture of Big Ben) which I can show once I find out how to.

I spoke to Frank Perris recently (at Beaulieu) about the club and he remembered it with great fondness.

Can anyone ID these guys?

Derek Best #4?

They look like team mates dont they, same paint work.

Sure can Russ it's Frank Perris and Remo Venturi on the Gileras at Brands Oct 9 1966 ;) oh 500's

If your right, I am most impressed!!

Yeah, well, ok, but what gearing where they using?

I don't know about the gearing, but take a close look at Frank Perris puddin basin, the paint work is not symmetrical !!?

Not sure Russ but it was obviously wrong as in the Redex Trophy Race they were 8th and 10th and in the Race of the South 9th ( Venturi ) and unplaced Perris

One of Mike's early efforts

Well Done Young Phil. You mentioned Venturi ealier in the other place so...... ,and didnt we previously discuss him and Perris at Brands? Wasn't this the last rather sad appearance of the Gileras, at least in Britiain? And I think they both finished hopelessly behind loads of old Nortons and G50'S. The guy up Venturi's megas is Joe Dunphy.

Third rider in the picture Griff Jenkins?

Er. Make that Joe Dunphy?

From memory it was red and white with gold inserts where the horizontal and diagonal white stripes met at the front. Blimey thats a bit sad remembering that innit. I think the reflection is distorting things a bit ...

See what you mean Classic, but after looking again at the 'borrowed' photograph I still rekon its Joe.

Yes it probably was the racing swan-song even the new paint scheme didn't help white , red and grey IIRC I wasn't sure of the third pilot , I was going through the prog at numbers starting with 2

Yes I agree it's Joe.

Chris on his BMW, not such a formidable combination as he was on his BSA.

Maybe it's my combination of age and memory.

I don't recall him on the BMW in action very much but the Beeza was frightningly fast. Down the back straight and into the Esses, I always started by standing at the edge of the track, flag in hand, but it was guaranteed that I would take a few paces back every time he came past!

I wasn't until a few years later after some guy spun his kawasaki outfit and it went behind me I realised how much like cars they had become. Prior to that they always went to the outside of the track.

Exciting time.

Blimey I need to put this on my 42" flat screen!!

Yeah, he was always brilliant to watch and I too remember the Green Beezas more easily. Great shot, is that Terry Harrison in the chair?

Yes as I posted earlier I thought Chris BMW was a nice looking outfit bought from Fritz Scheidegger I believe . Do I not recall that Terry Harrison was in the Royal Signals and could not always attend GP meetings in Europe so Chris used pick up passengers like John Cooper, Pete Ruttaford etc

Who's this fellas?

Yes, Bernard, a number of very brave blokes had a turn in the chair. I can remember him drifting through Southbank at Brands, running out of road, hitting the bank, and sending Eric Bliss so high into the air he appeared above the bridge that was then there. I not suggesting that he was a crasher, becuse he wasnt, but he could be a bit frightening to watch ?

Russ is that the South American Benidecto ?? Calderra ( is that right ? )

Youre on form tonight mate, Calderella it is. As you know he was the Argentinian who gave Hailwood some hurry up at Daytona '64 and then came to Europe but didn't go to well there/here.

Yep night Russ

What was the actual story when Chris Vincent shot up an escape road at a circuit only to collide with a parked ambulance or another vehicle anyway? I think Terry Harrison was his passenger and was seriously injured. Didn't Harrison then sue Vincent as a result of that?

Dunno Paul, not heard of it until it was previously mentioned on here. Suing anyone over a racing incident seems a bit extreme ? Peter Williams of course sued Nortons or an individual within the company and one assumes he did that in order to survive - financially I mean ?

My guess is that Chris Vincent's passenger did that for the same reasons, the necessity to survive. I would also surmise that no offense was intended against Vincent but an insurance v insurance claim (if you see what I mean)?

Yes agreed Paul, it reminds me of a serious car accident I had when my father in law was driving, it was not his fault, but I was advised to sue my Father in law to speed my insurance payout!! :\ I hasten to add I never did it that way, though it took ages for the other drivers insurance to pay out!!

I´ve always wondered how that Gilera ended up in Argentine in the hands of a hitherto unheard of rider. Mike reigned supreme at the time, so it came as quite a shock to read he had been given a really torrid time by the small fella. I can´t remember him campaigning in Europe after that though. Was that still on the same Gilera, and was it a full factory effort?

We could sue Phil for offences against comedic art?

According to my little Gilera book he rode factory bikes when he came to Europe. And the bike he rode in the Americas was apparently one of the ex Suderia Duke bikes, previuosly ridden by Minter, Hartle and Read.