Correction on #31 : Should be Alan Shepherd

and #9 Jack Findlay, as stated by Paul Rochdale

Correct again Rennmax, although the blurb with the picture says it's Marsovsky on the Kirby. Im reasonably certain Sheperd fitted an MZ front brake to Tom's G50, as well as other mods. Also, Marsovsky wouldn't have been on the front row in 63?

I agree, Russell. Marsovsky finished the season of '63 with one w/c point for scoring a 6 th place in Spa.
So I think he was still an up-and-coming rider in this period and not a front row man. Furthermore, I'm a spcialist for chaps with a swiss flag lid design and thats not a cross on the helmet.
As you surely know, he is originally (hope he is still with us) from Hungary and got away from his homeland in '56 after the Russian occupation. Probably his helmet design was something as thankfulness to his new home.
His greatest success was runner-up to Ago on a Linto in 'the w/c of '69.

Regards

Hi mates,

would hv Minter beaten SMB in the w/c of '63 if he had not had this awful crash with Dave Downer ?

Any comments ?

Regards

Good question , and often disscussed by far more enlightened people than humble old me I personally don't think so IIRC the Gilleras were '57 models with very little mods --apart from the obvious .
Ok , you could say almost the same as the MV's but SMBH had I think , full factory back-up if and when needed ,which I don't believe the Gilleras had .

Thanks Russell.I stand corrected but I believe only 22 were available in europe and maybe another couple got built out of spare parts.All who had them wish they had kept them.I managed to hold on to mine which I only aquired in 1968 for about 5 years after I retired from racing but got fed up with putting it in the back of furniture vans as my work kept moving,so I found a good home for it and they have still got it.

Ivan who told you that one?
Only got 1 picture of me on it in practise as I never did get on to well with it.The carb dismantled itself in the race on 1st lap top of Baggarrow.But in practise I found the handling difficult although Ken Sprayson improved it for me FOC by welding a steering damper to it. Sure he did'nt leave his file behind.
The other problem was the forks bottomed particularly at bottom of Bray Hill where they really clonked and i had no way of improving it.
No although I obtained it brand new just before the 67 TT I never could get on with it so i parted with it in 68.
Mind you with a better rider on it it was quite a quick machine. John Kidson rode it at a Snetterton national in 67or 68 and against some pretty good opposition finished 3rd or 4th,can't quite remember in the 250cc final
They were an interesting machine[img][IMG]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9987/approachtokirkmicheal19.jpg[/img][/IMG]

Yes, and as I mean't to write earlier, I don't think he ever rode for Tom Kirby. Although the picture shows more of the grid, I couldn't fit it all under the scanner which is a shame as I like this shot - GDR factories helping to build the worker's paradise an all.

He beat him at Imola in their first encounter, although Hailwood was nursing an injury after crashing his 7R at Brands. I think I have read that Hailwood rated Minter highly, so on equal machinery it would have been extemely close. I think though the Gilera challenge was a bit half hearted, at least as far as the factory were concerned; didnt Geoff Duke spend several years trying to convince them to come back before they finally agreed ? Apparently, not only was the bike undeveloped from the end of '57, there was no money for any ongoing work once they had come back in '63.

Phil, just read your post, so essentially I'm agreeing with you.......

Thought you were Russ

Do you know # 6 and #12 in your picture ?

The Sachsenring, especially the passages through the town of Hohenstein-Ernstthal must have been quite scaring. IIRC, Angel Nieto made the sign of the cross as he and Sheene battled it out in the last lap of the 125 race in '71

And Jimmy Guthrie in '38 and Bill Ivy in '69 paid the ultimate price

Unfortunately, I don't Rennmax....I was rather hoping that you might, as I think they may be your countrymen? I am though being a bit cheeky, as I'm dazzled by your display of knowledge thus far The 'tribunes' Rennmax - how did they stay up there and am I right to remember this was an East European thing?

Vernon Cottle finished 6th on a Manx, could he be #12 ?

Also re the Minter/Gilera query, Phil Read said it took a while for the handling idiosyncracies of the '63 Gileras to be traced, before finally tumbling to the fact they were using dolphin fairings on machines originally designed and built around dustbins, so that wouldn't have helped The Mint's quest....

The late George O'Dell sometimes swung his leg over a solo bike - from memory on the Island too. There are others but my fuddled brain can't dredge up this info at present. A number of well known blokes either began racing as sidecar passengers or combined chairs and solos: Billie Nelson; Dave Croxford; I think, John Blanchard; erm......

Roger Marshall

Chris Vincent.

+ of course our own TZ 350 ( Julian ) IIRC :yawn:

Whoops, quick adjustment in order.... Who's number 6 gentlemen......Go on, have a go without reaching for the programme.

Hi Russell.

have no clue about these 2 riders.
No 6 shows a French oder Dutch flag on his helmet, as far as I can see, but no names spring to mind.
They are def not German. The only one who campaigned a Manx in w/c regularly during this period was Walther Scheimann, who was German champ a lot of times but only a midfield runner on int. level. Probably he and other continental riders did'nt get hold of Beart,Petty , Lancefield etc. bikes as UK/Commonwealth riders did...
At least it was a good excuse

Re these weird grandstand constructions only seen at the Sachsenring, not generallly in Eastern Europe.Have never seen a picture of somene getting on or off. Wonder how they managed it.
I only know that they got higher year by year until they were banned, probably after an accident.
In "continental circus", there is a sequence of the 350 and 500 starting grid (oddly enough the film makers merged it) showing them, too....and the sequence where flowers were laid down where Billy Ivy should have been .....

By the way

http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/continental+circus#

here is the complete one. It's worth watching IMHO

Regards

Fred Stevens (?)

I remember Billie Nelson passengering for Georg Auerbacher... Luigi Taveri passengered for Swiss driver Haldemann in the fifties.. and the late Swíss Joseph Siffert of car fame began as passenger, too (TT 58, for instance)

Regards

Morning Rennmax

Like GD, I think 6 may be Vernon Cottle, who was killed at Imatra in the following Year? The evidence that I'm using for this is flimsy in the extremme: the Manx is fitted with a 1950's style fairing, unusual then for a pro rider, and I think I'm right in remenbering that Cottle retired from racing in the late fifties, coming back only in '63. Are you familiar with our expression 'clutching at straws' Rennmax.....?

Thanks for the link- Yes I have seen it and it's good, even if the editing is a bit eccentric. As for those pole things - arguably more dangerous than the racing?

Not Fred I'm afraid. This bloke is from a sunburned country, a land of sweeping plains.

Thanks to you and all other gentlemen for your input..

In the SMBH biograhy of Ted Macauley this topic is also dealt with to some extent.
After Mike was beaten in Imola, the hot-blooded count was rather disgusted and Mike left his office in dispute heading for the aiport. There he was seized by one of Agustas employees and escorted back... and the count welcomed him back with all his Italian charms .... (Nice fairy tale, anyway)

So I guess the obvious things ....

Senior TT 67, the other chap is John Blanchard

(ok, you didn't ask for that )

I'll have a punt at Malc Stanton young Russ
Check out the front brake

I'm going for Steve Spencer?

Re. racing both sidecars and solos. How about Nigel Rollason? He has the unique accolade of winning on the TT course on both two and three wheels! (1971 Senior MGP and 1986 Sidecar TT).

Nearly Barry, Freddie Dixon did it in 23/'27. Can't think of anybody else though who has come close in modern times.

I'll have a punt at Malc Stanton young Russ
Check out the front brake

Malcolm Stanton it is - note the 'roo on the hat

Nice one Phil!
Dunces corner for me !

Well done Phil - Aussie Malcolm Stanton. Disc brakes and perhaps a leaky primary chain oiler?

To join Mr Fu I presume Barry --let me know what it's like please

I know who and where, bit vague on when..............

Oi I got Derek Minter, but no one acknowledged that!! is it coz I is younger than you lot, and should be seen but not heard? :\

With all due respect , Stevie Wonder could have got ' The Mint '

Didn't want to say anything Phil..

That makes a change!

Oi !!!! what you picking on my mate Russ for

Touche... But what about the dead easy picture above?

Who , Buster or moi Russ old chum
I fink it's Coop pre 'mooneyes' --- no Fu not the Co-op so '61-63 I guess

Too easy for an old stager like yourself Phil.

Hey you lot will you get thought the hole in the space/time continuum to the other thread and solve my helmet problem

Why , has'nt a certain person got it yet

You are joking Rod, if Phil or Russ solve it, I will.... well you choose!? and no secretly messaging each other either!!

I am still thinking!!

Blimey Graham, I can hear the cogs turning from Brands

Somebody knows their poetry!!!!!!!!!!!
On the sidecar come solo riders, Graeme McGregor TT winner started his career as a very successful sidecar passenger

zzzzzzzzzzz! Oh someones got it already!! I am not having one of my better days Sterling!!

Rupert Hollaus ??