Harry Hinton, Dutch TT Assen 1950:

A big issue, Russ... speeds have risen dramatically, so circuits with no run-off aereas and spectators close by are things of the past, regardles of our preferences...watched a you tube snippet recently showing Ben Spies's bike somersaulting in Assen again and again.. what a desaster it would have probably caused in the past. The circuit owners run a business, they don't do it for the love of the sport...so we have to live in our memories of the good old days or be happy that motorsport can still be run (Croft !) even on a poorer level as it was...or emigrate to Ireland and/or Ulster, the local road race scene looks quite thrilling

Edit: Compared to the situation over here regarding number and quality of tracks, Brits are still very privileged !

Which is a travesty as you had some of the best in the world......

Probably well into his forties then and getting factory Norton rides, one eyed or not.

Well, finaly I had time to search something about Endel Kiisa.
All I could find about ´65 Nürburgring is this poor quality(it´s from newspaper)picture of Kiisa waiting for start in 350 cc class on his S-364 Vostok-


Kiisa started with motorsport in 1954 and became a Estonian champion in 125 cc Junior class in motorcross, wintercross and was well placed in roadracing too that year.By the way, Endel´s future wife to be, Virve become also Soviet Union champion in women´s 125cc roadracing class that year(and her sister was Soviet Union champion in women´s 350 cc roadracing class that year )
Before joining the club and start with motorsport, Kiisas "talent" was well known for a local policeman(who was himself many times champion in sidecar motocross)on motorcycle , whom young(too young to have driving licence)Endel escaped many times with his 125cc bike .
Earliest photo with Endel Kiisa in roadracing, that I could find(again from newspaper, so poor quality)is this one from 1955 Estonian championship-

Kiisa is second (21), first is very fast(she won the race)local girl Evi Nugis.Number 11 is another Estonian-Jüri Randla, who together with Kiisa and Sevostjanov campagnied in GP´s in 60´s.

Some boring statistics.
Kiisa was Estonian champion in winter motocross 125 cc class in 1954-1956, in 350cc class 1961-1965.
Third in Soviet Union motocross 125 cc class in 1958.


Soviet Union roadracing championship results of Kiisa-
Soviet Union champion in 350 cc class 1962 and 1968.
Second in 250 cc 1961 and 1963.
Second in 350cc 1966, 1967 and 1969.
Third in 125 cc in 1958, in 250cc 1959 and 1962, in 350 cc 1964 and 1968 and in 500cc in 1960.

First international roadrace that Kiisa took part was in 1962 in Hungary.
In 1963 he and Jüri Randla took part some GP´s.
In 1964 best result for Kiisa was 3-rd place in Finnish GP 350 cc class.

Thanks for the info Tony. Do you have any engine output figures ? And who designed them I wonder ? I suppose why would be an intereseting question too....

Quite a contrast to the pubescent lads who are now competing in GPs....

Morgen, yes, wasn't the kid who won the 125 British GP last year just 15 ? If so, what age did he start.....? I think this is a good thing, although I suppose like everyone else, if someone were to be badly hurt or worse, I would then probably have a different view. Thinking about this - way back when, I cant recall anyone ever asking me to produce proof of my age, or even a bike licence. As the saying goes, If I had known then............

you just looked sedate and mature, Russ

it's ok that there are junior championships, but I'm not keen to see schoolboy with dental braces ruling the roost on world championship level and thus representing our sport to the public as a somehow activity for teenies...ok, I'm getting old

Mmmmm, not sure about this...... When did they first start to allow kids to race anyway. And is there no lower limit?

this trend reminds me of the gymnasts especially from eastern Europe who where entered to the Olympics as soon as they left the kindergarten ... polemic over

Found this one...



Wonder whether poweroutput seems a little bit optimistic ...what do you think Tony ?

The twin being the predecessor of the four, I guess

Well, the old Soviet books, that I have give C-360 model 350 cc twin a 50,3 hp at 10200 rpm.
C-259 250 cc twin had 38,5 hp at 12000 rpm.
C-365 350 cc four had 59 hp at 13000 rpm and C-565 500cc four had 80 hp at 12450 rpm by this old(1972) book.
C-364 four had 49 mm bore and 46 mm stroke.There are some detailed drawings of C-364 engine in one book.
I think threre is even quite new book about Vostok road racers in english out.Author was Raymond Ainscoe if I´m correct.Never seen it.
My own interest is more in Soviet production racers.Those were the bikes that were mainstay of racing in Soviet Union.Serpuhov special bikes(C and Vostoks) were made in very small numbers and given to only handful of riders and they were raced in their own class.

Thanks Tony,

quite impressive figures for that era... they competed in Finnland and East/West Germany, any idea where else in the "western world" ?



a "C-259" ??

I wonder to what extent these were influenced by the Jawa twins ?

Yes, quite impressive indeed.If only they would have lasted to the end off the race.
Vostoks were raced in 1965 also on Saltzburgring in Austria.Kiisa had 17 second lead in last lap of 350 cc race, but then his clutch failed and he retired.On 500 cc race he was 5-th I think.I dond´t have much info about Sevostjanov, but I think he scored some podiums too with Vostoks.
Vostoks were raced also in Monza 1965.It was Italy-Soviet Union friendship race.Kiisa was 3-rd in 350cc class(Silvio Grasseti was first and Renzo Pasolini second).In 500 cc class Jüri Randla was also third.

Yes, that´s C-259.



Russians and Czechs worked officialy together with these bikes.
C-360 350 cc twin without fairing-

I see....That motor looks impressive, although some of the cycle parts look a little flimsy. Forgive my ignorance - were these bikes made independently of a manufacturer as it were ?

These race bikes were designed and manufactured in Serpuhov Science Institute near Moscow.Czechs helped to design the engine, but all the parts for these bikes were manufactured in Serpuhov.As far as I know, russians tried first to make the engine by themselves, but never got it working nicely.First 350cc Serpuhov paralel twin prototypes had shaft drive, but that was droped in favor of chain and spockets after first tests and races.
First shaft driven 350 cc bikes in 1954 looked like this-

Most of the Serpuhov racers testing was carried out in Estonia, Vana-Võidu roadcircuit near Viljandi.

Serpuhov Science Institute was involved in bikes since the war.In war time their main task was to equipe american lend-lease Harley WLA´s with soviet made sidecars for army.After the war they started to design and make racing motorcycle prototypes.
I think Soviets got hold some supercharged DKW racebikes when fighting in Germany.First Serpuhov bikes were copys of those.Later designs had some pretty interesting technical solutions.
S2B racing engine and racer from Serpuhov-




These bikes were used mainly for Soviet speed records, but some were raced too(supercharging was not banned in Soviet Union because it was not member of FIM).

Hi Tony,

thank you very much for these rare shots and the details I've never heard before
According to John Griffith's " Famous racing motorycles" book, the C 350 is identical to the Jawa of '61 with the exception of the bore/stroke ratio ??
Here it is, but with Ceriani brakes/forks and Michelin tyres, so it is not a shot of the sixties, S 41 PZ tyres were not available before 73/74, IIRC



And the Serpuhov has some DKW genes in it, no doubt about that...

Some earlier Serpuhov racing bikes from Riga Motor Museum collection.


125 cc DOHC single С-157(1957-59).
14,5 hp 10000 rpm.



250 cc DOHC twin C-254(1954-57).
23 hp 8300 rpm.


350 cc DOHC twin C-354(1954-58)
36,5 hp 8700 rpm.

And one with N.Sevostjanov(31) and E.Kiisa(32) on twins from early 60´s-

Thanks gentlemen some truely interesting info there, plus pics! The decision to build the bikes then was to demonstrate Soviet technology to the world.....and why not.

Where's me post....

[quote name='Russell Burrows' date='May 7 2009, 21:21' post='3627002']
Where's me post....

Said the fencer

Good morning Tony, wonder whether the Auto Union 16 cylinder Hill climb special that eventually Audi bought back was exhibited in Riga Motor Museum ?
Sorry out of thread gents...

Hi,
Just reading through all the posts I have missed and I felt a reply to this one needed, Helmut was an expert at smoking a fag to the last without dropping any ash or fag end, his trick was to put the ash in his hand and then when the fag was finish he would sqeeze the ends with his fingers and put the lot in his pocket and not a spot on the floor, i hate to think what his overall pockets where like at the end of the day.

the only Peta Woollett I know isMicks wife maybe that is where the name came from,

great to be back onsight so much to catch up on.
cheers
Peter

No clue who it is....but wonder why quite a lot of 7R punters replaced the front brake, most Manx riders sticked to the original, is my impression correct ?

The excursion looks a bit hairy, doesn't it ? But the sound is crisp, running on all pots this time...

Hi Renn, yeah, bit bored today- lets get the Guzzi V8 out...love it.

Im not sure that's right Renn. Quite a few Nortons were fitted with them too, particularly the Oldani, at least eariler on. Tom Kirby, who as you know ran a fleet of AMC racers with some factory support, used the standard brakes, with cooling rings fitted. Although, unlike the G50/7R, the late Manx was fitted fitted with a double sidded or 4ls front stopper.

Hi Russ, I' ll take this one




developed for the '40 season... along with AJS V4, Velocette roarer, what a season that could have been...

Thanks Russ, your 7R had a Oldani brake too ?



Had the privilege once to ride a bike with this kit, but IMHO, the performance was not impressive as the look, probably a matter of painstaking adjustment...

Yes, they built some wonderfully innovative bikes. They must have spent a fortune on racing post war - wind tunnel an all. I wonder what percentage of the company income was used for this - relative to say British factories around the same time, or indeed, later, the Jappense ?

It did and it was set up properly (not by me) so it worked beautifully. By way of contrast I raced an Aermacchi with a monster Ceriani stopper that was lethal when out of kilter - which was usually after I'd had a fiddle with it. It was fitted on, I think, a tiny 2.50 section tyre, which added to the fun and games.

I think some of those German monsters found there way on to Manxes and the like here, I think there's a picture on here somewhere.

Some serious brake this one !

Probably it was a lot too much, at least from the economical point of view, thus being the reason of the withdrawal after the '57 season and not the argy-bargy about the banning of dustbins ?

Yeah, looks tremendous... I recall a 8 LS brake (Robinson ?) on a G50 used in IHRO events, looked like it could stop a train

More likely to be a CMA/Dresda if it's an eight-leading shoe biggie....but your jet-helmeted friend would have to win this week's brake scoop of the week award, Russell...

Ever so skinny tyres and big'ol Ceriani brake...... And I wonder what happened to my girlfriend, Lorraine?

I saw a picture recently of Bonera (I think) aboard an MV at a historic bike meeting somewhere or other.
The caption under the shot claimed the machine was, "the legendary 350 six cylinder MV"!!!!
Now, maybe I wasn´t paying quite enough attention at the time, but I can´t recall ever seeing or even hearing about an MV 6. Was this a misprint, or was one actually built? The lower part of the pic (around the exhausts) was hidden, so I wasn´t able to do a pipe count.

http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Direct...usta-500-58.htm

Rhodie, I think John Hartle raced it around '58, perhaps Surtees too. It was never fully developed though. I can't honsetly recall if the bike pictured is kosher......

It's real enough, and is part of the Ubaldo Elli collection. It was built around 1970, has multiple swingarm pivot locations and even two steering head tubes, plus a bank of six carbs fed in a weir arrangement from two matchbox-style float bowls. It's normally paraded by ex-works mechanic Lucio Castelli as part of the Elli MV demos, which include a 500 triple, a 1974 500 four, and the 1976 350 four. The sound, naturally enough, is fabulous..... Although built as a real option to curb the two-stroke advance, it was tested but never raced.

Yes, a flicker of a memory of that one too. Presumably this was devloped from the earlier bike?

Hi Rhodie, in fact there were even 2 different six cylinder MVs.

1) a six cylinder 350 bike was built in 57/58 with Nello Pagani trying it in Monza in '57, the 500 cc version was raced there in '58 by John Hartle

2) second attempt was a 350 cc bike, which was used in practice in Modena in '71 by Ago and Bergamonti. I think that's the one still ridden in classic races

Edit: acc to Christian Spahn's "MV Technik und Geschichte ", SMBH would have ridden the MV 6 in the 350 cc race in the GP in Monza in '68 but was not willing to accept team order to let Ago win, so he changed to Benelli

I seem to recall that set of circumstances applied to the 500 race, and Hailwood was given a dog to ride with a view to finishing behind Ago. His walk down to the Benelli team and subsequent race were decided by him crashing under brakes for the Parabolica, and the pic of him going off the track on his chest is well-known, in fact the slow 500 MV and the Benelli (both #2) appear on the page of Hailwood photos on the moto70 website.

Edit : moto70? You klutz !! I refer of course to the excellent bike70.com site, wherein lies a great gallery of Hailwood pics by Francois Beau, and many other delights. Apologies for the obfuscation....

Quite positive that I spotted the brake on Willi Rüfenacht's bike, which at least has the silhouette of a G50, but hardly any interchangeable parts with the original one, I assume

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CNsRN9L...MED2Pp4&hl=

Here's a bit more info on the Six, courtesy of Mick Walker.

Thanks for that info guys. One is obviously never to old to learn, it seems. I would love to have heard the MV six. Anyone know what the rev limit was? I would guess not as high as the 296 Honda.

Ah, just seen your post Russ. Thanks mate. 10,600 rpm doesn´t seem much for a 6 pot 500, don´t you think?.

75 bhp @Ten eight.

Yeah, doesnt seem that much. I was just scanning the book and the last 500 four reved to 14 grand, and the 500 three to, I think, thirteen, five.

Figures for the 350 of '71 : 70 hp at 16000 rpm ( acc to Spahn's book)