The only reason I opted for Crystal Palace was because I found a map of the circuit (date uncertain) on the web that shows the start area with a viewing stand and car parking in the same positions as shown in my photo, but I never managed to get to the Palace. I did see a Gold Cup at Oulton in 1970 viewing just past the start area, but the passing of time has dimmed the memory to positively i/d my photo. Perhaps as I type this there is someone somewhere up in the attic searching for an old race programme to comfirm location/race numbers - we should be so lucky !!
Glad you guys out there are finding these images of interest.

Regards to all,

Ian Simpson

I have not been to the attic yet Ian, but will. Trouble is when I get there I never want to come down.
Russ you are a star, you could be in line for a CDM. Following your Oulton Park ID I have seen the start from another angle on the net, 'our' photo must have been taken from the footbridge as you can see the roof of the pits.
Now the easy bit, when and who!
Thanks, Roy

Have to agree with Russell Raced a couple of meetings at the Palace and although the memory has dimmed the start areado'nt look like that from memory.However also did Oulton around same time and I think that picture is about right for Oulton

Thanks for that Arthur, now when?
Roy

Denis Rapley's shot of the start line straight, 1969. It dosen't help too much with the discussion, but any excuse to whack up a Plalace photograph. I wonder if anyone else has any of this great little circuit ?
http://imageshack.us][/URL]

Regarding Oulton, the direction of the shadows (assuming it was in BST) suggest starting a race at getting on for 6pm - aerial photo http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...mp;t=h&z=19

At Crystal Palace, it would be around 8am http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...mp;t=h&z=17

Great spot Geoff, so its 6pm which points to the 500cc final possibly in late summer looking at the length of the shadows at Oulton.
Now for a 1958-9 programme, any offers please.
Roy

The only programme I have for Oulton is for the 4th of October 1958
Gary

Hello Gary,
I was going to contact you about Oulton Park programmes. Unless it was an exceptional warm day on 4-10-58 I think it may have been earlier. However in for a penny, in for a pound the following numbers can be seen.
The 500 class, 18, 24, 28, 34, 46, 50, 64.
Thanks for your to help,
Roy

Hello Roy, 18, N. J. Ball BSA, 24, D. C. Allcock BSA, 28, S. A. George BSA, 34, P. Tomlinson Triumph, 46, A.King Norton, 50, J. V. Bernal Norton
64, L. Farrar BSA.

Gary

Thanks for that Gary, excellant stuff.
I am more confused now, if my eyes are correct 46 is a Manx with rider in white helmet which matches Alistaire King, what about 64, is that a Manx or Gold Star. Gary has L Farrar on BSA. Over to the experts.
Does anyone have a mag for 4-10-58 with mention of weather please, if it was that good the report must have mentioned it.
Puzzled (Roy)

The weather must have been good for October, one guy is in shirt sleeves. E lad, they were tough in them days !

Ian

On the subject of Crystal Palace I read somewhere that there were plans afoot to start racing again.
Any truth in this?

It was raised on here some time ago when it was said to have been discussed in one of the rags. I've previously searched for this, but thus far have found no mention anywhere. It may well have emerged though as an issue during the campaign to save the park from the greedy mits of developers - the circuit was/is situated in a London suburban park - who with the conivance of the local council wanted to sacrifice what is a lovely spot in order to build yet another giant suburban shopping mall. Thankfully, for the present at least, they have been thwarted.

As can be see from the info on the link, a fair bit of the circuit remains but the development that has gone on since the closure would make a return to racing, at least on the old layout, more than a bit difficult. The major issue, of course, would be noise, as many of the houses abutting the circuit - and some of them are very close - are huge dwellings, occupied no doubt by the middle classes who are usually only too well aware of how to get their way on such issues.

http://theracingline.net/racingcircuits/ra...alace/mm04.html

Sevenoaks and District Motor club are planning to run a sprint at the Palace in May 2010 (See: http://www.motorsportatthepalace.co.uk/about.html#). They ran several there during the late 90's. The first ones were for both cars and bikes but I believe that the latter ones were cars only. The one that I attended certainly was.

They used a course consisting of some of the original infield, the terrace straight with some chicances added, North Tower Cresent and the Glade. Using the complete original race circuit would now be impossible.

For those that are not up to speed with 4 wheel competition a car sprint is usually run on a race circuit or airfield, unlike a bike sprint which is a straight line event such as the Brighton sprint. They are started individually and timed between two fixed points. For example at Lydden they start in the pit lane exit, do one and three quarter laps and finish up the hill towards the hairpin returning to the paddock via the pit entrance. There are normally around three cars on the circuit at a time. Overtaking is not permitted. If you catch the vehicle in front you follow it round and are given a rerun. It is lower cost and damage risk than racing but at the expense of a lot less circuit time.

I did not compete in the late 90's events but have already registered with a view to competing in May 2010 in this:


Andrew

P.S. Apologies for posting a picture of a car in the bike racing forum. I'd really rather be on a bike but I'm too old now to go down the road on my backside.

P.P.S. If anyone is interested that was at Westfield, Brands, DMN race 1st August this year and it was coming down like stair rods. Started from the back of the grid after a spin at Paddock in the first race. Got lapped just before the line to finish 30th out of 35.

I'm not sure I ever noticed quite how close the houses were....

Oh, I think they are quite safe. You´d have to get past the railway sleepers and the spectators first.

The Palace bring back memories Was'nt there a major accident which caused the press to get on the ban bandwagon.
Joe Dunphy was to the Palace what Dereck Minter was to Brands.

Yes, Arthur, Easter Monday '59 saw a dreadful plie up at Ramp Bend which resulted in two blokes being killed and others being injured. The Tabloid press of course did their stuff....... Unfortunately, I think there were other fatalities at other times. As you'll recall there weren't too many places to step off.

The starting grid, 1960, when it was situated on the straight leading up to Ramp Bend.

Fantastic photo, I was at the Palace the other day, and my mind took be back to the good old days! I have some fantastic photos in a book I purchased in an Antique Shop in Stamford, all about racing at the Palace, cars and bikes, superb photos in there, but all subject to copywrite.

Here's something for three-wheel fans of a certain age.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/M...n-242671620.htm

So, just as I feared, it is all over for the Palace. I was hoping for a miracle.
It is one of life's tragedies that all too often those who can afford to live close to a race track have no interest in racing and those who would love to live there can't.
My dim memory of Ramp is that there were ripples in the track on the outside approach and these were to be avoided like the plague.
All in all a bloody dangerous place and one that I have mixed memories of.
Now, a couple of questions for the brains trust.
Many years ago, in the 50s, I had a distant neighbour called Roley Ford who raced a 125 MV (lucky boy).
Not so many years ago, in the 60s, I worked with a chap called Eddie Smith who also raced, but was better known for his banjo playing with Chris Barber.
Does anyone know of these guys?
Cheers, Stu

With a lot of help from Larry and Gary I think we have ID the Oulton Park start shot to Heat 2 of the 500 class started at 3.43 on 4-10-58. The weather was exceptional for October, No. 64, 28, 24 seen in picture did not make the final. The following Heat 3 contained John Surtees and John Hartle both on MV's.
The final was won by John Surtees, 2nd Bob McIntyre, 3rd Bob Anderson.
Gary could you post the riders on the front row of Heat 2 please.
Thanks for eveyone's help. Any comments or alterations welcome.
Roy

Sorry can't help with the grid for this race all I have is the first three 1st 76 J. Godfrey, 2nd 4 Bill Smith 3rd 46 A. King
Other qualifiers for the final were 48 R. Renson 32 P. E. Richardson 16 F. J. Stevens 60 R. A. Rowbotham 14 J.Wooton

68 W. Callcutt 44 J. Engle 2 R. W. Good & 18 N. J. Ball.
Gary

Thanks for that Gary, there's some names to conjure with. I wonder if J Godfrey was Tony, Bill Smith from Chester, A King must be Alistair who toured with Bob Mac. Ralph Rensen was a great international rider. Fred Stevens was another.
To think this was just another national meeting, where did we go wrong (ACU). To think all we have in this country now is a series for failed Motogp and WSB no hopers, creaming the money from tomorrows talent.
Roy

Hi Stu, so did you race there, if so, when was that?

The book is "Racing At Crystal Palace" A History of motorsports at London's own race circuit 1927-1972, Phillip Parfitt. I would wager it is out of print sadly, but a great book, reminds us of how thing were before the nanny state arrived, I'd be interested to hear if anybody else has a copy, I see that I paid £7.50 for it in 2003. Published by Motor Racing Publications of Croydon.

I have one Sterling, bought it from Chater & Scott at Brands, cost me £5.95 cant remember when...2004?
Great book!!

Me too, unfortunately the cat has pissed all over it.

Obviously "tiddles" never enjoyed reading it!!


Seems like you got a bargain Graham! We will have to ensure that Russ does not get his mits on ours matey, cats piss, never get rid of that odour

Have you all gone to sleep, who is this.

Roy

Bill Roberton on a 250 Diesel from Varese (!) - 1962

Coming out of the Gooseneck.

Great stuff boys, Bill Roberton first rode at the island in the Clubmans in 1954 and continued up to 1990, he made a comeback for the 1999 Singles TT. Thats a hell of a long time around there without serious injuries. I think he came from up North but would like to know where.
Roy

Bill was a motor cycle dealer from Falkirk, Roy.

He rode, as I recall, a 250 Ariel Arrow in the 1961 Ulster GP, the first road race I ever spectated at.

Thanks for that Larry at the back of my mind was Scotland. The land of Bob Mac and Alistair King, what a duo.
Would the Arrow be the one Mike O'Rourke used?
Roy

Mike on the Herman Meier devoloped Arrow at, er ....the Palace

Nice one Russell.Good to see an 'arrer' in action.
HW

You want to see an Ariel SC in action, how about this HW.

Excellent Roy,perhaps a pre-war Square 4.What baccy is he smoking?
HW

St Bruno duty free.
It got a bit tricky at times, was it the pipe or the clutch.
Roy

Clutch if you've got a full cargo,otherwise pipe every time
HW

I have checked the old baccy tins and Wills Cut Golden Bar was in the briar when this was took.


I hope this shot makes the H/S merchants and PC brigade puck. Where did it all go wrong.
Roy

I have been asked to post this, & as this person is usually to be found on this part of the forum I thought here will be good, its a bit small, but I am sure we will find out the story behind it sooner or later!!?

France? Ariel Arrow/Leader?

Hmmm...

Is HW auditioning for one of those films where they cheat and the trees and stuff go up and down with the bike?


David

No, hang on The bike goes up and down on it's own and, errr, ummm the trees go......... oh, you know what I mean

David

Ok Guys,I've been found out.I don't really ride it,I trailer it everywhere. The 'Arrer' now has a reserve petrol tap fitted to it to supposedly prevent certain members of the South West France 'paparazzi' from cashing on my misfortune.Luckily the photo appeared before the weekend when I will have ample opportunity at Arnos to get even with the evil swine (Tom) who has blackened my name. .Thanks Graham for the photo BTW,it gave me a chuckle.Keep looking over your shoulder Tom

Taken at the same event with the motor running (just)
HW

Hi guys, I have a photo of Ian Simpson which we have no idea who is in the picture.
They all appear to belong to a team which raced in the late 1950,s. I think the rider is second from the right, his face is familiar but not his name. The guy on the right in the dark blazer appears in several shots. We think the team was based in the north of England or Ireland. They have shots of Oulton Park, IoM and Spanish GP, any help to open Pandora's box please.

Roy