Vincent/HRD
From another board....a little fractured, but still very interesting
(sorry, pic not captured
I could get it next week...)
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From: Mark
Subject: In the middle of no where
Went to Roxby Downs SA on the weekend and while getting petrol, this thing turned up. Had a chat to the owner and found out about some of its history. It is a 1950 Vincent C series Rapide. The original owner brought it after the war and had it until 1986. The current owner brought it for the sum of ₤4,000 after having to travel to England to buy it. (Imagine travelling to England to buy a motorcycle off an Aussie!!) It has not had a cent spent on it other than the usual regular maintenance which is needed for any motorcycle. He is thinking about taking it off the road next year for a major restoration project but he can’t bear the thought of having it off the road for that time frame. This bike is ridden twice a week and often seen at high speeds for a motorcycle of it’s age. It sure was nice to look at.
<< File: 1950 C series Rapide.jpg >>
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From: John
Subject: Vincent on the road
Great to see a Vincent unrestored and in general circulation.
Those with an eye for Vincent detail (or interested in Vincent variations) may notice that the engine timing cover is smooth and is marked with neither "HRD" or "Vincent". However, the Tank has a "Vincent" transfer logo. This is quite correct and corresponds to an early 1950 machine when Phil Vincent was "in between brands" and in the process of changing the names of his bikes from "Vincent- HRD" to "The Vincent".
The tank transfer change was quick and easy to introduce, but the engine moulds needed to be altered to effect the change, which took time. Why did Vincent decide to change the name of his bikes, when he had been using the "HRD" name since 1928? Well, in 1950 Phil Vincent was trying to get more penetration into the American market, and the letters "HRD" were apparently getting confused (in America) with "HD" of Harley Davidson. This would not do, and Vincent ordered the name change while he himself was still in America and after he had just learnt about the apparent confusion (which he was NOT happy about). Despite Vincent having used the "HRD" logo boldly on his bikes since 1928 (when he bought the rights to the HRD company soon after leaving university, with the help of his father, a successful Argentinean rancher), he now felt he needed to change the name so that his bikes would be recognised for what they were. Until the engine moulds could be changed, "HRD" embossed crankcases and valve inspection caps had their logos ground off and polished smooth in the factory. Any "HRD" fuel tanks on the shelf ready for fitting were sent back to the paint shop, repainted and marked with the new "VINCENT" logo. It is one of these bikes that has been captured in the picture.
Why the letters "HRD" in the first place? Well, Vincent determined that he would likely have more success with his new fledgling company in 1928 if he used a well known and respected brand. Howard Raymond Davies was a well known motorcyclist with quite some ability and won a Tourist Trophy (T.T.) race earlier in the twenties on a bike of his own manufacture. Davies' company was "H.R.D". Bad financial times fell on Davies, and he had to sell his company. Vincent bought the rights to the HRD company after it had changed hands at least once, along with the few remaining assets. Vincent's bikes (made in Stevenage, Hertfordshire) bore no resemblance to the earlier Davies' Wolverhampton-made "HRD" machines.
Vincent's vision was to build the best bike possible (regardless of cost). His own experience with proprietary (J.A. Prestwich- "J.A.P") engines was disastrous in the mid 1930's when his own campaign for the T.T races failed due to engine design and reliability problems. Even back then racing success was vital for economic success ("Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday"). Based on this bad experience, Vincent determined to then build his own engines, and these were released in the later part of the 1930's as the 'Model A', (firstly in 500 single, then later as the magnificent V-twin 1000cc Rapide, which was designed by Famous AUSTRALIAN Engineer Phil Irving).
Students of serious speed, and/or fans of "The World's Fastest Indian" will recognise the name Rollie Free. In the movie he was portrayed as the cigar-chomping racer who be-friended and helped Burt Munro achieve his record. The movie did not mention Free's own achievements. In 1948 Rollie Free set a new land speed record on a Vincent Black Lightning at just over 150 MPH. Do a Google search on "Rollie Free +Vincent" and you will easily find what is probably the most famous of all motorcycle speed pictures. It Shows Rollie Free lying horizontally on his guts on the rear mudguard wearing only swimming trunks, a rubber bathing cap and borrowed sneakers on his way to 150 MPH (his original leathers tore off at a previous slower run). Now THAT took guts (not only to support your body on the bike), but also to have NO personal protective gear AT ALL.
Vincent claimed that his bikes were "The worlds fastest standard motorcycle". This was no idle boast. However, despite this, Vincent's were actually extremely good touring bikes and many long distance rides were achieved by many owners and the bikes bristled with rider/maintenance features (reasons they are so coveted). It is therefore great to see this continue with the example seen that started this post.
The pictured Rapide is not totally in standard condition. The carburettors look like later Amal Monoblocks (remote float Amal carbies were originally fitted standard). The tail light has been replaced by what looks like a more modern Lucas unit. (The original was made by Miller and incorporated the famous "STOP" shroud over the brake light half of the unit). The original Miller tail light was apparently the only combined stop/brake light on the market at the time. However, it was small and not up to the safety needs of modern everyday motoring, so changing the light is reasonably common today in the interests of safety.
The thick hose coming out of the timing cover is known as "the elephant trunk" modification. It improves the breathing of the crankcase from that achieved by the standard timed breather that was used, but which can lead to oil being ejected during tick over (and leaving its mark!).
Do the Google search above….very interesting. Great bikes and fascinating history.
Looking for a modern Vincent? Google the modern Australian-built version built the Dormer brothers known as the "Irving Vincent", which apparently has double the power output of the original, despite the engine outwardly closely resembling the original . Try googling: Ken and Barry Horner + Irving + Vincent
Vincent is again set to take on the record books by a TWIN engined, original V-Twin Vincent powered streamliner at Bonneville. If your interested, Google "Max Lambky +Vincent". They are aiming for 400 MPH, which is much faster than the Mark 1 Supermarine Spitfires that were melted down after the war, and some of the resultant scrap metal undoubtedly went into the Vincent alloy engines.
Hope the above is of interest, although long,
Cheers
john
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From: John
Subject: Vibrationless Vincents + cost of classics
The main reason Vincent's are renowned for their vibration less qualities was the manner in which the engine crank shafts were prepared at the factory (the V-twin layout helped as well, but this layout cannot be dynamically balanced perfectly and the side-by-side con rods result in a minor rocking couple force which is not really noticeable ). The crank parts were not just pressed together, then the engine assembled. The main shafts and big end were pressed as accurately as possible onto the flywheels, then final machining was applied to the whole assembly. This guaranteed that the four main shaft bearings, the flywheels and the big end were all dead in line. Incidentally, the Vincent has four main shaft bearings (two each side of the fly wheels), the outer two bearings are very widely spaced so as to ensure maximum rigidity and to minimise flexing of the main shafts resulting from power transmission to the primary drive. When doing up a Vincent, it is vital that whoever is entrusted with the crankshaft work knows what they are doing, otherwise the vibrationless qualities can be upset.
Yes, the Irving Vincent's ARE expensive, but consider what second hand GENUINE XY GT HO Falcons, Bathurst Monaro's, A9X Torana's GTR XU1's and E38 & E49 Chargers are pulling these days. If you haven't looked lately, the prices asked are obscene, but they ARE changing hands at prices asked (and to think I sold a HT GTS Monaro in 1982 for $500, and I thought I was doing well). A mate of mine sold his 450 Desmo single Duke in the mid 80's for $1000 in very good nick (we had lost touch at the time, I would have bought it had I known) Most charismatic bike I had ridden. Look what they are worth now. Same with houses. They are always so expensive at the time, but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, would we not all turn the clock back and buy all we could, knowing what we know now? It might be a case of considering what today may be a highly regarded classic in the future. Maybe the $100 000 for an Irving Vincent may be cheap in years to come, even though we may dismiss the price now out of hand. At least they are brand new and the performance speaks for itself. Production seems destined to be small and low volume production will lead to rarity. It may be like rare anything (including stamps, coins, classic cars, classic bikes) that are subsequently very sought after. They were all brand new once and no doubt a lot of people deliberated over buying one when new (because of cost), with most getting cold feet and not bothering. Once demand outstrips supply, then the prices go stupid (like GT HO's, Monaro's, etc, which are still just old cars, with dated performance, but their pedigree's ensure there ongoing popularity).
Maybe the Irving Vincent is an available instant classic that may be a potential lucrative investment for the astute buyer, who can also enjoy it to boot. I understand that there has been no shortage in serious interest. So if you where lucky enough to be able to secure one, you could easily sell it on without waiting years for the investment to mature to its potential.
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From: Andrew
Subject: Horner 'Irving Vincent'
I took my afternoon coffee break taking a quick squizz. Google "Irving Vincent", limit it to Australian sites, and they come up first and second hits. In 2003 they were estimating $100,000 each for the customer road bike, in 1300cc form. I won't be buying one at that price, especially since the site looked to have been written in about 2003 and not updated since. I have seen both the sidecar and the 1600cc racer displayed recently, which suggests the Horners are still active with the project, so if you have the spondooley spare, send them an email.
By the way, to the person who thought the original Vincent 1000 cc twin would vibrate, no they don't. Well, far less than you might think and I didn't notice the '55 Series C I rode vibrate at all, and I'd just got off my Ducati so I'd have noticed.
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I can´t begin to tell you how much seeing that pic has meant to me. I thought my memory of Sox and that machine was only something that remained in my head, and not something that others still shared with me. How happy I am to know that Gary is still admired and loved by those of us who were priveliged enough to see him, and who still remember his awesome talent. He is and always will be, for me at least, quite simply, the greatest.
Hi all , I would like to point out that I am still searching for TT racing transporters and paddock shots in this period , especially in the european world championship races ! In the late 50s when all the big Italian marques was there , they had some big trucks and coaches , in the 60s when fading , they scaled down to vans like with Surtees or Hailwood , but still I found no really good pictures or infos , "only" partpics etc. So, please keep an eye for me (and you). Also it would be very interesting to see Paddy Drivers Jaguar (3,4 ?)!
