Motorcycle racing: 1949-1968 nostalgia

It was designed by Joe Craig as a copy of the extremely successful Guzzis, but was nowhere near as low or light. It was never raced in anger as the Norton works effort folded in 1954, having ignored Geoff Duke's pleas to diversify and causing him to leave for Gilera. From memory it was nurtured by works mechanic Charlie Edwards, who was still around to assist when the components of the bike were reassembled into a runner many years later.

It was designed by Joe Craig as a copy of the extremely successful Guzzis, but was nowhere near as low or light. It was never raced in anger as the Norton works effort folded in 1954, having ignored Geoff Duke's pleas to diversify and causing him to leave for Gilera. From memory it was nurtured by works mechanic Charlie Edwards, who was still around to assist when the components of the bike were reassembled into a runner many years later.

This is a (F-type) copy by Franz Schleifer http://www.classic-m...s.php?album=215

did this bike from the Sammy Miller Museum ever race
or is it just a recreation of a period concept bike?????

Good attempt that they should have persevered with, including having the barrel fining the right way round.

I somehow lost the pics of this gorgeous little bike, so just in case someone out there hasn't seen these......


http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/fast.html

Edited by Russell Burrows, 19 June 2010 - 17:04.

Believe it or not , Russ , et al , I actually liked these and admired what they did , with Provini and then Agostini

Believe it or not , Russ , et al , I actually liked these and admired what they did , with Provini and then Agostini

Yeah, fantastic piece of engineering. I think Provini bested the Honda four of Redman more than once on it ?

Phil, got any difficult - but not too difficult - WWW from your stack of old comics?

Yeah, fantastic piece of engineering. I think Provini bested the Honda four of Redman more than once on it ?

Phil, got any difficult - but not too difficult - WWW from your stack of old comics?

Yes , he did , nearly got the title in '63 , failing at the Jap GP , IIRC , contact breaker assy letting him down
I'll load some up in a bit , Russ , early ones ( --- 68 ) hard to come by , see what I can find

Hi Arthur, Yes, I found one A.C. Lawn at the Palace in Easter '63 with an EMC/Puch and the Moto Guzzi. I was almost certainly there watching you Arthur. The old Palace programmes show that unlike the August Bank holiday meetings, those at Easter held heats and finals, at least until the late sixties. Numbers out of a bag.....I once got pole at Snetterton.

Easter meetings were Nationals and the August ones were run by BMCRC. Saw my second ever race meeting there in 1956 and passengered there once or twice. Walking round the track the close banking and sleepers were more than intimidating as was the Glade but when the flag dropped that was all forgotten.

Easter meetings were Nationals and the August ones were run by BMCRC. Saw my second ever race meeting there in 1956 and passengered there once or twice. Walking round the track the close banking and sleepers were more than intimidating as was the Glade but when the flag dropped that was all forgotten.

Welcome Exchairman. '56 for me too as a nipper. Also manged to get a ride there before it closed. I wonder who you passengered for?

Yeah, fantastic piece of engineering. I think Provini bested the Honda four of Redman more than once on it ?

Beat him round Montjuich Park which is fair enough, but he also beat him at Monza ! BTW Russell I think the barrell finning on the F-type is right, the radial fins were on the Porcupine. We could also add that the original ran a GP whereas the replica has a Gardner, but those clever replicas are more than enough to get my attention. There's a big poo fight on at the moment with Bernie Saunders having a sad about the Phil Morris-built RC162 replicas devaluing parades etc, but for me I'd rather have good gallopers from the day out flogging a look-alike (and sound-alike !) rather than having a deadset original tucked away gathering dust in a museum, after all they're not trying to deceive people about their provenance or even sell them under false pretences. The recent TT Parade sounded fantastic going off the line listening to the Manx Radio feed off the internet, and it wasn't till we heard the bikes go through Glen Helen surging, clutch-riding and doddering about that it became apparent they were being constrained behind a marshal going way too slow...

Edited by GD66, 20 June 2010 - 00:34.

Beat him round Montjuich Park which is fair enough, but he also beat him at Monza ! BTW Russell I think the barrell finning on the F-type is right, the radial fins were on the Porcupine. We could also add that the original ran a GP whereas the replica has a Gardner, but those clever replicas are more than enough to get my attention. There's a big poo fight on at the moment with Bernie Saunders having a sad about the Phil Morris-built RC162 replicas devaluing parades etc, but for me I'd rather have good gallopers from the day out flogging a look-alike (and sound-alike !) rather than having a deadset original tucked away gathering dust in a museum, after all they're not trying to deceive people about their provenance or even sell them under false pretences. The recent TT Parade sounded fantastic going off the line listening to the Manx Radio feed off the internet, and it wasn't till we heard the bikes go through Glen Helen surging, clutch-riding and doddering about that it became apparent they were being constrained behind a marshal going way too slow...

Who and what was in the TT Parade this year I know several ex TT riders with some exotic machinary who would normally have taken part but said
'No Thanks' when asked for £200 entry fee for 1 controlled lap. Seems now the event at Spa has taken over and is attracting all the oldies and the exotic machines of yesteryears. If someone could post the TT parade entry it would be much appreciated as 'curiosity is killing the cat'

Maybe a bit of an obscure question, but a work colleague has a vague connection to a rider called Geoffrey Prentice, who was killed in the 1962 Manx Grand Prix. Does anyone know anything about him?

Beat him round Montjuich Park which is fair enough, but he also beat him at Monza ! BTW Russell I think the barrell finning on the F-type is right, the radial fins were on the Porcupine. We could also add that the original ran a GP whereas the replica has a Gardner, but those clever replicas are more than enough to get my attention. There's a big poo fight on at the moment with Bernie Saunders having a sad about the Phil Morris-built RC162 replicas devaluing parades etc, but for me I'd rather have good gallopers from the day out flogging a look-alike (and sound-alike !) rather than having a deadset original tucked away gathering dust in a museum, after all they're not trying to deceive people about their provenance or even sell them under false pretences. The recent TT Parade sounded fantastic going off the line listening to the Manx Radio feed off the internet, and it wasn't till we heard the bikes go through Glen Helen surging, clutch-riding and doddering about that it became apparent they were being constrained behind a marshal going way too slow...

You're right, GD, but I was pondering why they didn't cast it horizontally from the outset?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 21 June 2010 - 16:56.

Maybe a bit of an obscure question, but a work colleague has a vague connection to a rider called Geoffrey Prentice, who was killed in the 1962 Manx Grand Prix. Does anyone know anything about him?

There's a slightly gruesome site somewhere out there with lists of blokes killed, perhaps even one specifically for the Island? Actually, I think that years Manx was the first one I had followed as a kid, I can recall his name.

Motorsport Memorial ............ click.

Easter meetings were Nationals and the August ones were run by BMCRC. Saw my second ever race meeting there in 1956 and passengered there once or twice. Walking round the track the close banking and sleepers were more than intimidating as was the Glade but when the flag dropped that was all forgotten.

Thanks for the welcome The first meeting i ever went to was Brands, Good Friday 1956 where a friend of my father was racing a Manx outfit, driver's name was Percy Lester from Edmonton in North London. I was allowed to sit on it in the paddock and after watching practice I decided that I wanted to race sidecars! Forard ten years or so and I had my first race with Jim Spencely at Brands on a home built Triumph powered chassis using a modified Featherbed frame, pretty normal at that time. Our race ended prematurely due to clutch troubles and we launched ourselves from the top of the banking at Bottom Bend into the infield, happily with minor personal damage. Subsequently passengered for John Simpêr, Steve Downes, Reg Gooch. Enforced retirement came with marriage in 1968.

Fast forward about another ten years and a return to racing as a driver. First outfit was Domi 88 powered of uncertain provenance purcahsed for £100 and 'ready' to go. My passenger was my future wife and on our second practice day at Snetterton the steering felt strange, inspection back in the paddock showed that the headstock was about to part from the top and down tubes, an uncanny echo of Camathias' fatal accident at Brands. That chair was replaced by one found in an Ealing Triumph dealers backyard which I recognised as a Windrick semi-kneeler that was driven to 22nd place in the '66 TT by Alan Butler. Purchased for £120, totally rebuilt during the winter and away we went for the season

A tempting offer was made by Kim Hedges (Colin Nicholson's passenger at that time) to acquire a two year old mini-wheeled machine which had won the Southern 67 twin Championship in the hands of builder Brian Marks the previous season. It came with several Triumph pre-units and an ARE 750 top end.

Eighteen months later a Suzi Kettle was installed as we had run out of Triumph bits, we raced this for several more seasons retiring eventually due to a severe lack of cash!

Apart from competing I marshalled with TOMCC at Brands and for BMCRC for many years joining CRMC when it was first formed. Alan Cathcart invited me to draw up a spec for classic sidecars to be raced within the Club, which I did after much head scratching, so, yes, I am to blame for the initial spec.

Now happily retired in SW France my only regret is that there are not many meetings here

Nice intro... You must be a neighbour of Herr Wankel? Welcome to the forum...I'd be happy retired in France too!





David

[quote name='Coupe Kawasaki' date='Jun 23 2010, 18:30' post='4430363']
Nice intro... You must be a neighbour of Herr Wankel? Welcome to the forum...I'd be happy retired in France too!




Thank you David for your welcome Hmm, Herr Wankel, know of him but not his whereabouts. As for happy retirement what could be better living in the heart of rural France

He's in England at the moment I think but he sees the Pyrenees every morning



David

He's in England at the moment I think but he sees the Pyrenees every morning



David

Wereas for Phil, it's just a pair of knees. Yes good post Chairman ...and welcome one more.

He's in England at the moment I think but he sees the Pyrenees every morning



David

Morning all
Nicked a laptop for a few minutes.20 mins from Pau-Arnos by Ariel Arrow,15 mins by by other means of transport.Look for the smoke sceen Off to Darley Moor sunday,but can't wait to get back home.
PS 40 years this year since my 1st ever race at Darley.
ATB HW

Happy Anniversary Andy You have a neighbour on the forum




David

Didn't we have John Hartle's nephew with us a while back. Must be late fifties, Monza? Isn't far right Surtees's Mum?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 24 June 2010 - 15:51.

Didn't we have John Hartle's nephew with us a while back. Must be late fifties, Monza? Isn't far right Surtees's Mum?

Yes she is.

Didn't we have John Hartle's nephew with us a while back. Must be late fifties, Monza? Isn't far right Surtees's Mum?

Hi Russell
The photo was taken following the German G.P at the Nurburgring 1958. L-R June Hartle, John Hartle, John Surtees, John Surtees sister & mother.
All the best
R

Hi guys,
I just wanted to say at this point that as a new and fascinated follower of the thread I am currently working my way through it...presently at page 140 so not far to go, but it has to be done at work in my spare time...and I am overwhelmed by your encyclopaedic knowledge of the racing scene. Along the way I have seen one or two items that I have taken note of and would like to comment on, if it's not too late, and I have put in a request to my sister in the UK to try and unearth some pics which may be of interest. I'm also curious to know who people are as we may have met before on the racetracks. I can see that Yendor is Rod Scivyer, who was going strong when I started racing but I have fond memories of that fluorescent Honda being visible all the way round Mallory.
Catch up soon. Regards

Barrie

Excellent Barrie, you've tripped over TNF and found it a blessing, just as we all have. Not encyclopaedic by any means, but a wealth of keen race fans from both sides of the fence, and we share the common bond that the history of racing meant plenty then, and continues to do so today. Welcome aboard, and enjoy your trawling.

Hi Russell
The photo was taken following the German G.P at the Nurburgring 1958. L-R June Hartle, John Hartle, John Surtees, John Surtees sister & mother.
All the best
R

Hi Richard and thanks for the info. Apologies, I should have searched for your name a little more rigorously.

A highly unusual and fascinating shot. Is the the flat capped guy the MV mechanic er,.... cant recall his name?

Hi Richard and thanks for the info. Apologies, I should have searched for your name a little more rigorously.

A highly unusual and fascinating shot. Is the the flat capped guy the MV mechanic er,.... cant recall his name?

Hi Russ, you are thinking of Vittorio Carrano, but I wonder if it's him in this shot

Edited by Rennmax, 25 June 2010 - 08:16.

That race was run in appalling thunderstorm conditions : the fastest lap in the 350 race was in the order of 81 mph in the dry, the wet 500 race's fastest lap was around 75 mph. Gary Hocking was third behind Surtees and Hartle.

Hi Russ, you are thinking of Vittorio Carrano, but I wonder if it's him in this shot

Hi Rupert
I think Graham might have to adjudicate.

Hi Rupert
I think Graham might have to adjudicate.

thats him, 10 years later though

Excellent Barrie, you've tripped over TNF and found it a blessing, just as we all have. Not encyclopaedic by any means, but a wealth of keen race fans from both sides of the fence, and we share the common bond that the history of racing meant plenty then, and continues to do so today. Welcome aboard, and enjoy your trawling.

Thanks GD.. Just started reading Terry Shepherd's posts. Excellent stuff. Don't know if Terry still looks in but I used to travel from Manchester to his bungalow in Ormskirk to buy spares for my Bultaco. He would kindly invite me and my girlfriend to wait in his sumptuous living room whilst he sorted out the required bits and I would gaze adoringly at his silver reps on the window sill. That would be in 1966. A very nice chap indeed!

thats him, 10 years later though

Thanks for putting a name to the face. I've seen him in numerous photos of John Hartle & MV and always wondered who he was.

All the best
R

Excuse me for being extremely off topic, but the England vs Germany soccer play on Sunday should be an ideal occasion for a quick gallop on some then deserted country lanes ... a ritual I enjoy very much when some millionaires in shorts have'nt got anything better to do than to chase a ball

Edited by Rennmax, 25 June 2010 - 11:00.

Thanks for putting a name to the face. I've seen him in numerous photos of John Hartle & MV and always wondered who he was.

All the best
R

I rather doubt that's Vittorio Carrano in the flat cap. For my money, I'd be betting on Corrado Agusta.

Excuse me for being extremely off topic, but the England vs Germany soccer play on Sunday should be an ideal occasion for a quick gallop on some then deserted country lanes ... a ritual I enjoy very much when some millionaires in shorts have'nt got anything better to do than to chase a ball

Nice one Renn.

Welcome to the paddock Mr Xover !

Now you have got us all guessing who you are!

Didn't we have John Hartle's nephew with us a while back. Must be late fifties, Monza? Isn't far right Surtees's Mum?

...Lovely pic, from the days when 'leathers' were made from leather..!

Excuse me for being extremely off topic, but the England vs Germany soccer play on Sunday should be an ideal occasion for a quick gallop on some then deserted country lanes ... a ritual I enjoy very much when some millionaires in shorts have'nt got anything better to do than to chase a ball

There's never any traffic here Renn , you can go 50 miles out in the sticks and see maybe 10 cars. ....no speed cameras or cops . The worst thing on the road are the deer and plenty have found that out the hard way



David

You're right, GD, but I was pondering why they didn't cast it horizontally from the outset?

It was a lash-up from already-existing parts, Russ -- Nortons never spent any money they didn't have to.

According to Mick Woollett, if further development had taken place, then an "Aermacchi-type" barrel would have been made, but sadly nothing further happened.

Hi Rupert
I think Graham might have to adjudicate.

The chap in the cap is a young Arturo Magni.

Nostalgic mention was made back in the thread about the patter of feet before the explosion of sound in a push start race. I seem to remember more often than not in 250 races, once the bikes had blasted into the distance and quietness descended momentarily there would be a continued patter (or two) as the NSU riders struggled to get their bikes started. Those things had a very high compression ratio IIRC and were a devil of a thing to get fired up.

How about this itinerary from next week or so for a 68 year old late sixties 'scratcher'... Who still gets a buzz from racing motorcycles...

"Arrive in Uk Tuesday 7th. July from Thailand. Stay until Saturday 10. July. Then fly to Germany from Stanstead.

Saturday until Thursday stay at Norberts in Berlin. Thursday 15th July go to Oschersleben.

Leave Oschersleben Monday 19. July. Drive to Winfrieds in Mannheim . Stay over night. Leave caravan there. Tuesday 20the July drive truck back to the UK. (it needs MOT).

Stay in UK until Tuesday 27. July. Drive back to Mannheim and pick up caravan. Drive West again 150 Km new circuit (For VFV) Metz in France.

Stay until Monday 2nd. August. Drive back to Winfrieds at Mannheim . Stay overnight there.

Tuesday 3rd. August drive back to Oschersleben. (Friday open practice day. Saturday Sunday IHRO Race meeting (First time).

Monday 9 August drive to Schotten for weekend 12 - 15 August; Schotten GP.

Monday 16 August drive to Winfrieds Mercedes dealership. Leave Truck and caravan there. (Have done for many years).

Tuesday 17. August Fly back to Thailand from Frankfurt Airport.

Return to Frankfurt on the 22nd. Sept. for Hockenheim VFR meeting. Weekend 23 - 26. Sept.

Monday 27. September take truck back to Berlin.

Friday 1st. Oct. Fly back to UK.

Stay at my home in UK until 9-10 Oct. Then fly back to Thailand for the winter..............."

Hope you all did not mind me posting the above, but I thought fair play to the elder JB and others might be interested - only credit where its due...

The chap in the cap is a young Arturo Magni.

Yes, thanks Graham, the very dude I was thinking of.

Yes , Jim , that's dedication for you , I could think of , and name quite a few who would baulk at that schedule , but fair play to John and all those like him who do it for the love of the sport for little , or no reward

Welcome to the paddock Mr Xover !

Now you have got us all guessing who you are!

Sorry Knickerbrook...didn't see your question until today. Thanks for the welcome. I'm sure you will be no wiser when I tell you but my name's Barrie Dickinson.

Sorry Knickerbrook...didn't see your question until today. Thanks for the welcome. I'm sure you will be no wiser when I tell you but my name's Barrie Dickinson.

Hi, I think I recall the name....did you race 125's perhaps a Ducati etc?

I can recall a GARY Dickinson - well known in the sixties for his diminutive stature, but not a Barrie. I imagine, sharing the same surname, you would have heard of him? He rode 125's.

............. click.