Motorcycle racing: 1949-1968 nostalgia

Originally posted by Russell Burrows


My method: after registering with Photobucket and scanning, save under png format, go Photobucket and upload from pop up window under desktop, copy img code from the little panel that appears under the image, go TNF and post where desired, not forgetting to do a Phil and/or Fu, by adding the 'witty' text.

Huh? I'm afraid you lost me! What is TNF and Phil and/or Fu?

Originally posted by Russell Burrows


TNF: The nostalgia forum. Phil and Fu: a couple of old codgers on here, usually found waxing lyrical on the other thread.

I couldn't have put it better myself old codger takes one to know one ;) thanks Russ

Originally posted by Russell Burrows


My method: after registering with Photobucket and scanning, save under png format, go Photobucket and upload from pop up window under desktop, copy img code from the little panel that appears under the image, go TNF and post where desired, not forgetting to do a Phil and/or Fu, by adding the 'witty' text.

Let's give it a try! If it works this is a line up of the MV Agusta works bikes in either 1961 or 62.

Originally posted by Maridadi


Let's give it a try! If it works this is a line up of the MV Agusta works bikes in either 1961 or 62.

That I like. It Would have been a pretty impressive line up for a full blown, mass manufacturer , but quadroupaly so for a tiny company such as MV...... Amazing. Would Marco Melandri have been able to ride one of these?

Originally posted by Maridadi


Let's give it a try! If it works this is a line up of the MV Agusta works bikes in either 1961 or 62.

Hi there what a fantastic shot any idea where it was taken -wide open spaces Jurby IOM perhaps or Monza ?

Hi there what a fantastic shot any idea where it was taken -wide open spaces Jurby IOM perhaps or Monza ?

No idea! It came from Gary Hocking's personal collection which was left with his very good friend and motorcycle racer, Rhodesian Len Carcary. Here's another shot from a different angle.

Good stuff - anymore?

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Good stuff - anymore?

How about a telegram from Count Augusta?

I like 7Rs too!

Wonderful ! Do you have Gary's archive ?

What a great piece of racing memorabilia. Thanks for sharing it!

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Wonderful ! Do you have Gary's archive ?

Not me. It's all with Len Carcary who I was fortunate enough to meet a few weeks ago at a barbecue (briaarvleis) here in Florida and who has been good enough to share it with me. Len was a close personal friend of Gary's from before Gary became well known. He even has Gary's FIM competition licence from 1962.

Here's another great picture. Anyone know where it was taken?

Mallory hairpin ? Great find, all this Gary Hocking stuff. His contemporaries, and that includes the previously-mentioned Peter Pawson and Jim Redman, all concur that in his time, Hocking was THE man....

And btw Russell, you'll be happy to know that H and H recently sold a 7R for 45,650 pounds in their February auction...... what's that choking sound.... ?

Or perhaps the banked hairpin at Oulton Park..um.. what's it called? Or is it the Gooseneck? Think it's it Britain because of the number backgrounds. On reflection, wouldn't be the Island as he wouldn't have started number 45.

I saw that GD - amazing. I'm trying not to think about the price I let mine go for.

Here are a couple more. On one he is in the process of coming off and the other is the same machine with scraped up fairing. Must be in the Island but don't know where exactly.

Great shots which I have never before seen. I'm wondering if its the IOM; the number tapes don't appear to be those previously used there. Actually, I think it may be Clermont Ferrand, French GP about 1960?

Originally posted by Russell Burrows


Very late model, Oldani front brake - virtually gave it away.

Hi Russ I like that Brands perhaps ;) When was that somewhere about '66--'68 ? I guess

incredible photos posted here - I am still looking for anything of the earlier Hailwood 7Rs

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Great shots which I have never before seen. I'm wondering if its the IOM; the number tapes don't appear to be those previously used there. Actually, I think it may be Clermont Ferrand, French GP about 1960?

I thought it was the Island as he was wearing the bike number and hadn't realised that any other circuit had that requirement. I couldn't remember when it was that they started stitching the numbers to tapes stitched to the leathers for the TT although I was surprised as I thought it was well before these shots must have been taken.

As an aside, does anyone on here remember John Storr and if so what happened to him?

Originally posted by Maridadi


I thought it was the Island as he was wearing the bike number and hadn't realised that any other circuit had that requirement. I couldn't remember when it was that they started stitching the numbers to tapes stitched to the leathers for the TT although I was surprised as I thought it was well before these shots must have been taken.

As an aside, does anyone on here remember John Storr and if so what happened to him?

I think it's not the Island because: the Lightweight TT, popular as it was, never attracted 130 odd entries around the time in question, nor at any time in the sixties. For British races the number backgrounds, I think, should be white on the front of the fairing ( they were changed to this around about 1960) ? The above could mean nowt if it were a practice session on a bike still wearing old numbers etc, but I don't think it looks like the Island - where is the inside kerb? I'll stick with Clermont - Ferrand, where I think they continued with number vests/tapes until about 63ish?

Originally posted by Russell Burrows


I think it's not the Island because: the Lightweight TT, popular as it was, never attracted 130 odd entries around the time in question, nor at any time in the sixties. For British races the number backgrounds, I think, should be white on the front of the fairing ( they were changed to this around about 1960) ? The above could mean nowt if it were a practice session on a bike still wearing old numbers etc, but I don't think it looks like the Island - where is the inside kerb? I'll stick with Clermont - Ferrand, where I think they continued with number vests/tapes until about 63ish?

Hi Russell

You are right. These pictures of Gary were taken at Clermont-Ferrand. If I hunt out one of my old scrapbooks I should be able to find the whole story.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Hi Russ I like that Brands perhaps ;) When was that somewhere about '66--'68 ? I guess [/QUOTE]

It's '71 Phil, easily outsped by almost everything by then. I sold it in early 1972 for, I think, £ 250 quid and went back to Australia - big mistake. I was all set up to buy Ron Chandler's Seeley, which itself was obsolete but quick enough for me at that time. When back there I raced what was essentially a T500 Suzuki with monster carbs and a hinged frame .... put me of two strokes for life. [/B][/QUOTE]

Which was the mistake Russ -selling the 7R or going back to Oz ? Mind you the Seeley would have been good ( you could have even put the T500 lump in it ) just a joke Russ .Off out see you later

Phil O'Brien, who raced a Drixton Aermacchi in Europe -the bike Tony Foale later brought back here - somehow shoehorned a T500 into a kinda modified Drixton frame. It wasn't wonderfully successful, but it looked good.

Originally posted by gripper


Hi Russell

You are right. These pictures of Gary were taken at Clermont-Ferrand. If I hunt out one of my old scrapbooks I should be able to find the whole story.

I got together with Len yesterday and we checked what was written on the back of the original photo. It said "French Grand Prix 1960" so you are both right.

Here are a couple more photos.

IMG]http://i306.photobuc...ridadi/Gary.jpg[/IMG]

IMG]http://i306.photobuc.../Hocking500.jpg[/IMG]

What did I do wrong???

Let's try again!

Originally posted by Maridadi
Let's try again!

Oh what, brilliant. Top one Ginger Hall '61 I think, as don't think he rode the big 'uns on the Island before this. Not sure where the other one is taken, must be '60 though as this was Surtees's last year. Both were great stylists dont you think? Thanks for posting these.

Originally posted by Maridadi
Let's try again!

2 Great pics I guess thats a hard charging John Surtees in the 2nd wonderful

Here's a couple of real rareties.

Originally posted by Maridadi
Here's a couple of real rareties.

What great history how much more do you have ? Is that a very young Magni behind Gary in the 2nd shot ?;)

It's been mentioned here before but it's worth repeating that Gary Hocking's brother Duncan Hocking was a keen motorcycle sprinter back on the 1960s. I recall seeing him a few times at the Sunbeam MCC Sprint along the Western Undercliff at Ramsgate. He rode a Manx Norton-engined machine in a spindly chrome plated frame (before they were called 'chassis') I have a B&W photo of him somewhere, I must did it out.

Yes, I think your'e right Phil. The MV just looks...well fast, as well as beautiful.

Hi Maridadi

Thanks again for the fascinating postings. Did you know Gary yourself ? If so, I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing to know more about him and his career. Myself, I would very like some further insight into the circumstances of his mid season retirement in '62. And does Len show any interest in joining us on here?

Footnote: I rememberl Hailwood responding to a question on one of those sixties sound recordings of the TT (1962 I think) with the assertion that Gary was a better rider than himself. I don't think he felt moved to say that very often.

Just logged in and seen these pics of Gary. Absolutely wonderful. Thanks Maridadi.
For obvious reasons, Gary, or Sox as we knew him, is the man I´ve always regarded as the greatest of them all. I don´t suppose many would agree with that statement, but I had the rare privalege of seeing him race on quite a few occasions. Breathtaking is the only word to describe him. And what a gent into the bargin.
The pic of John Surtees (what a majestic style) and Gary looks like it was taken on the mountain section somewhere, with Gary 10 seconds up on the old master.
Gary stopped bike racing after the 62 TT when Tom Phillis was killed. It affected him badly and he simply walked away from the sport.
I was at Westmead the day he had his accident. I still get choked up today thinking about it.
RIP Champ.

It's not the Island Rhodie, as Gary didn't ride the fours there until '61, John Hartle being Surtees's team mate in '60. I think its probably the 350 race, Monza 1960, which Hocking won. I have read somewhere that his decision to retire was not taken immediately after Phillis was killed and while deeply affected by Tom's death - he is alleged to have disappeared for some time afterwards - the final straw was the reluctance of the MV bosses to let him ride their bikes in some Italian internationals ?

Yes Russel, you are probably right about the photo. The fellow standing on the inside of the bend has a typical Italian style cap from that time. It was the fencing that made me think it was IOM.
I can´t vouch for the reason why Gary stopped, but that was the official reason anyhow. It´s quite possible he had problems with the Italians, as they weren´t the easiest of people to get on with according to Mike Hailwood, who said as much in his biography. But if that was so, Gary certainly never mentioned it as far as I know.

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Hi Maridadi

Thanks again for the fascinating postings. Did you know Gary yourself ? If so, I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing to know more about him and his career. Myself, I would very like some further insight into the circumstances of his mid season retirement in '62. And does Len show any interest in joining us on here?

Footnote: I rememberl Hailwood responding to a question on one of those sixties sound recordings of the TT (1962 I think) with the assertion that Gary was a better rider than himself. I don't think he felt moved to say that very often.

Hi Russell,

My interest in Gary began when I emigrated to Southern Rhodesia in 1957. While I certainly can't claim to have personally known him, in the very casual atmosphere of racing in that part of the World at that time, I certainly spoke to him in the paddock as I did to Jim Redman (who subsequently became a friend of mine). In those days in Rhodesia the race meeting was usually a mixed one with car and bike races with the day finishing with the fastest bike versus the fastest car which was quite a sight with usually either Norton mounted Gary or Jim racing either a D type Jag or an ERA!

Len has certainly been reading this thread and I'm sure could be persuaded to join it. I am sure that he would be able to give us a major insight into what happened after the 62 TT and I will ask him the next time that I speak to him if he hasn't already joined in here. As far as I am aware Gary only rode once after the 62 senior which was in the post TT Mallory race weekend.

In a "Skype" chat with Jim yesterday he mentioned that Gary had commented to him that he was switching as F1 cars were much safer than bikes. How ironic.

Funny you should mention the sound recording of the 62 TT as Len has just lent me a taped copy of the original record which does contain that remark by Mike.

Cheers

Maridadi

ps On a sadder note I am attaching pictures of the final resting place in Caerleon of Gary's remains which I visited when I was over in 2005.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Just logged in and seen these pics of Gary. Absolutely wonderful. Thanks Maridadi.
For obvious reasons, Gary, or Sox as we knew him, is the man I´ve always regarded as the greatest of them all. I don´t suppose many would agree with that statement, but I had the rare privalege of seeing him race on quite a few occasions. Breathtaking is the only word to describe him. And what a gent into the bargin.
The pic of John Surtees (what a majestic style) and Gary looks like it was taken on the mountain section somewhere, with Gary 10 seconds up on the old master.
Gary stopped bike racing after the 62 TT when Tom Phillis was killed. It affected him badly and he simply walked away from the sport.
I was at Westmead the day he had his accident. I still get choked up today thinking about it.
RIP Champ.

Hi Rhodie,

To have been at Westmead the day he was killed - that is an experience that will never leave you.

It is almost impossible to quantify who was the greatest but Socks was certainly in the top group alongside John Surtees (who I saw trounce Duke and the Gilera with a Manx Norton at Silverstone), Mike, Jim Redman, etc.

It was, and still is, a characteristic of the British motorcycle press that they downplayed the colonial riders in favour of the home grown variety which is why Gary and Jim's legacies are not lauded as they should be (the same comment would apply to Ray Amm and several of the Aussie riders). Jim commented to me yesterday that after his first real success they referred to him as '...London born Rhodesian, Jim Redman..."!

On the subject of Jim Redman few know that, in GPs where they both finshed, Jim finished ahead of Mike more times than vice versa. (I will wait for the storm of responses!)

Cheers, Maridadi

Originally posted by Maridadi


Hi Rhodie,

To have been at Westmead the day he was killed - that is an experience that will never leave you.

It is almost impossible to quantify who was the greatest but Socks was certainly in the top group alongside John Surtees (who I saw trounce Duke and the Gilera with a Manx Norton at Silverstone), Mike, Jim Redman, etc.

It was, and still is, a characteristic of the British motorcycle press that they downplayed the colonial riders in favour of the home grown variety which is why Gary and Jim's legacies are not lauded as they should be (the same comment would apply to Ray Amm and several of the Aussie riders). Jim commented to me yesterday that after his first real success they referred to him as '...London born Rhodesian, Jim Redman..."!

On the subject of Jim Redman few know that, in GPs where they both finshed, Jim finished ahead of Mike more times than vice versa. (I will wait for the storm of responses!)

Cheers, Maridadi

Yes, I think we (Southern africans) all know what you mean, and that´s why I said I doubt many would agree with my evaluation of Gary. His performances in the Island though, were truely outstanding, as Mike, without taking anything away from him, obviously knew the place far, far better. Lets just say how lucky we were to live through a period that produced these two masters, as well as others like Ago, Readie etc. Surely the golden age of racing. It was for me at any rate.
How is Jim BTW? Wonderful chap and a supurb rider. I do hope he is in good health.

[QUOTE]

On the subject of Jim Redman few know that, in GPs where they both finshed, Jim finished ahead of Mike more times than vice versa. (I will wait for the storm of responses!)

In fact, it's bigger than that. Jim Redman once told me that he has never been beaten by Agostini in a race they both finished. Naturally, I flew into a spin, having remembered that Ago's first 350 GP (which he won) was in the wet at Nurburgring...when I checked, Jim had crashed through a hedge. This was when he won the 350 title, for four years in a row..... on the 500s, when Honda debuted their fearsome 500 four, Jim won the first two GPs of the year at Hockenheim and Assen, then crashed in the wet in practice for the third round, buggered his wrist, and in spite of an attempted comeback at the Ulster GP, was ruled out of racing thereafter, at GP level anyway. So, he's often underrated, but in my opinion, not just one of the all-time greats, but the first real professional works racer. Good on ya, Jim.

;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GD66
[QUOTE]

On the subject of Jim Redman few know that, in GPs where they both finshed, Jim finished ahead of Mike more times than vice versa. (I will wait for the storm of responses!)

In fact, it's bigger than that. Jim Redman once told me that he has never been beaten by Agostini in a race they both finished. Naturally, I flew into a spin, having remembered that Ago's first 350 GP (which he won) was in the wet at Nurburgring...when I checked, Jim had crashed through a hedge. This was when he won the 350 title, for four years in a row..... on the 500s, when Honda debuted their fearsome 500 four, Jim won the first two GPs of the year at Hockenheim and Assen, then crashed in the wet in practice for the third round, buggered his wrist, and in spite of an attempted comeback at the Ulster GP, was ruled out of racing thereafter, at GP level anyway. So, he's often underrated, but in my opinion, not just one of the all-time greats, but the first real professional works racer. Good on ya, Jim.

;) [/QUOTE]

I certainly agree with your comments regarding Ago which is why i sent the following e-mail to James Robinson at The Classic Motorcycle (it has been published in the July edition).

Good Day James,

In the text under the above heading on page 10 of the April issue of your fine magazine, the Classic Motorcycle, Ago is referred to as "the World's Greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix Racer". While I have great admiration for Ago I feel that the claim of the "greatest" should only be applied to he who was truly the Greatest, Mike Hailwood. Giving due respect to his fifteen World championships a more appropriate title for Ago would be "the Most Successful".

Why should Mike with nine championships be held to be the greatest? Analysis of 500 cc Grand Prix in which they opposed each other produces some interesting facts. The first one of these is that, in 1965 when they were equally mounted team mates at MV, in races where they both finished, Mike won six to zero from Ago.In the 1966 season when Hailwood was mounted on the terrible handling Honda, again in races in which they both finished, Hailwood beat Ago 3 to 1. In the 1967 season, yet again in races in which they both finished, the score was Hailwood 3, Ago 2. In the 6 years following 1967, the year that Mike set the lap record in the Island, Ago did not come close to Mike's record lap, a lap time that was not improved upon until nine years after the record was set.

If we consider the period to and including 1972, a period during which he won ten of his fifteen World Championships, Ago had essentially no competition from either another factory or a team-mate which rather detracts from their value. It is of course no fault of Ago's that he had such an easy time for so long.

When MV took on Phil Read as their second rider in 1973 Read took the 500 cc World Championship with 84 points to Ago's 57.

To sum up "Ago the most successful", "Mike Hailwood the GREATEST".

In conclusion I must again say how much I enjoy your fine magazine.

Best regards,

BTW I sent a copy of this to Jim as well whose response was that he totally agreed with the sentiment.

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Yes, I think we (Southern africans) all know what you mean, and that´s why I said I doubt many would agree with my evaluation of Gary. His performances in the Island though, were truely outstanding, as Mike, without taking anything away from him, obviously knew the place far, far better. Lets just say how lucky we were to live through a period that produced these two masters, as well as others like Ago, Readie etc. Surely the golden age of racing. It was for me at any rate.
How is Jim BTW? Wonderful chap and a supurb rider. I do hope he is in good health.

Apart from his hip which he broke a couple of years ago (not on a bike!) Jim is in fine fettle. He's just back in SA from Europe and leaves for there again in a couple of weeks' time.

On the previous subject I have to tell you that I've just bought a copy of Mick Walker's "Mike Hailwood - The Fans' Favourite" and am very disappointed by the way in which it is written. Every win of Mike's is written up as being comparible to the second coming whereas his defeats are sloughed over with short one sentence comments like "The 350 race was won by Jim Redman". Mike would puke if he read it.

I particularly take objection to a statement made next to the "box" on Gary which says "Then for 1962 he was Mike's teammate at MV....". If anything, it was the other way round, Mike became his teammate.

It is also inaccurate as far as the "box" for Jim is concerned where it suggests that, although Jim won the first round of the '66 500 championship, Mike won the second, the TT, before Jim won the Dutch and then broke his arm badly in the Belgian. That year the TT was delayed until September meaning that Jim won the first two rounds.

Anyone know how to contact Mick Walker? I'd like to give him constructive criticism of his book.

Originally posted by Maridadi


Anyone know how to contact Mick Walker? I'd like to give him constructive criticism of his book.

Hello,
Try this : ducatiliz@aol.com

Originally posted by PilotesdeLegende


Hello,
Try this : ducatiliz@aol.com

Hi,

I tried it but it has been returned as mailbox unknown!

Thanks anyway,

Maridadi

Originally posted by Maridadi


Apart from his hip which he broke a couple of years ago (not on a bike!) Jim is in fine fettle. He's just back in SA from Europe and leaves for there again in a couple of weeks' time.

On the previous subject I have to tell you that I've just bought a copy of Mick Walker's "Mike Hailwood - The Fans' Favourite" and am very disappointed by the way in which it is written. Every win of Mike's is written up as being comparible to the second coming whereas his defeats are sloughed over with short one sentence comments like "The 350 race was won by Jim Redman". Mike would puke if he read it.

I particularly take objection to a statement made next to the "box" on Gary which says "Then for 1962 he was Mike's teammate at MV....". If anything, it was the other way round, Mike became his teammate.

It is also inaccurate as far as the "box" for Jim is concerned where it suggests that, although Jim won the first round of the '66 500 championship, Mike won the second, the TT, before Jim won the Dutch and then broke his arm badly in the Belgian. That year the TT was delayed until September meaning that Jim won the first two rounds.

Anyone know how to contact Mick Walker? I'd like to give him constructive criticism of his book.

I think you really should contact him and point out that history doesn´t need to be distorted by one sided hero worship. As you say, Mike would never have approved of that sort of thing.

Here are a couple more to keep your interest going.





The second one is Jack Brabham and Gary

Interesting: Is that Hailwwod's Norton behind the Honda ? Probably 1961.

The Cars: Oulton Park '62 ?

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
The Cars: Oulton Park '62 ?

Certainly looks like the Esso Hairpin at Oulton.

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Interesting: Is that Hailwwod's Norton behind the Honda ? Probably 1961.

The Cars: Oulton Park '62 ?

Which Honda?

You'd think so Russell, can just about make out the Ecurie Sportive logo on the Peel fairing. Wonder what the meeting was : possibly a non-GP event ?

The photo of Gary following Jack Brabham is indeed at the Gold Cup races at Oulton Park on 1 Sept. 1962. Gary carried number 23 on his car. Retired with engine problems on lap 62.

BTW...Ken MacLeod wrote a nice article on Gary a couple of years ago. It was published in CLASSIC CAR AFRICA.