Sam Michael about the 2008 car:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62014

Earlier Rosberg said he was confident of a major step when he saw the plans for 2008.

Wow! I don't remember when any team has been this bullish so early before the new season.
Williams must be on to something?

Or short of sponsors.

Hah! Autosport fixed a typo from last night by changing 2005 to 2004 at the end of the first sentence.

Anyway, I do think it is unusual for the team to say this for a start, and so early too. I can only hope that they can produce a car to back up their statements. However, this years car has been a good step forward from last years in both reliability and overall pace and consistency, so the changes back at the factory are obviously having a good effect.

Yeah, but they speak of a revolution rather then an evolution. That, in my opnion, is significant.

Williams are far too experienced to make these kind of statements without being having some certainty of a major step.

I am thinking they will try some sort of innovative concept, as with the Walrus nose. Otherwise you do not speak of a 'revolution'.

The last team that went for revolution not evolution on their car was Honda. I'm not saying it won't work, but ...

As much as I'd like Williams to return to their winning ways, the last time they had a revolutionary car was in 2004, ok it won a race, but only after scrapping the original concept.

Steve.

I feel Formula 1 needs Williams at the sharp end, they are a great great team with a rich history and a super leader in Sir Frank, it would be perfect to see a Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams, BMW and Renualt shoot out for the championship.

I seem to remember Patrick Head being at pains to tell us that despite its outlandish appearance, the effect the walrus nose actually had was minimal.

Whether Sam Michael's comments are linked in any way to what Rosberg's been saying about the difficulty he foresees with TC next year, I don't know. Things are definitely sounding positive for 2008, anyhow, especially if Ferrari and Mclaren continue to devote so many resources to the tail end of this season.

It seems that all of the Williams cars since 2004 have been "revolutionary". They have all had very different concepts:

2004: twin keel car with Walrus nose, then normal nose. BMW engine.
2005: back to basics simple single keel car. BMW engine.
2006: no keel. Cosworth engine.
2007: no keel, focus on "efficient" aero. Toyota engine.
2008: ??? Toyota engine.

I really hope the car is a cracker.

I have to say, sadly, that was my first thought too . . .

I would LOVE to be proven wrong however.

Me too.

I didn't post to piss on anyone. I have just seen too much hot air being spewed through the years (not from Williams but other places) not to become a tad cynical about these kinds of statements.

I'll bet anything they are 4th to 6th in the constructors by the 6th or 7th race. They may start fast but will fade.

They are in more trouble than they make out IMHO.

In total agreement, Go Williams!

I think their last leading revolution was in 2001 and the small drag rear aerodynamics.

If I had a pound for everytime someone in the F1 industry talked about a 'more aggressive' car/wing/component I'd be a very rich man.

Webber wont be too happy reading this news, if red bull dont raise there game big next year he will be in the wrong place at the wrong time again

Yeah, the 'certainty' seems a bit odd. As odd as how certain McLaren seemed to be of their own gains last winter and last spring. Perhaphs Williams have gotten hold of some 780 pages of crucial McLaren data?

I think the best way forward for williams is to let them take over the toyota project.
lead the engineering and run a satellite team through the toyota team head quarters in cologne.
let the huge funds be used wisely
and give the toyta team more success

They should get a jump just from no TC, since not having TC puts more emphasis on mechanical grip, and Williams have always been excellent at that. With similar tyres to the other teams, their mechanical skill could be a further comparative benefit in the second year of the BS control tyres. They also have some continuity with the engine for the second year in a row, so the cooling should be more efficient - hence the aero will be better and they'll get another sure comparative jump.

Who knows about the rest - I think they don't have the resources to be top 4.

Or the other way round, perhaps. Toyota ought to follow BMW's path and buy out Williams, but keep the team as essentially a separate entity. I think SFW might sell if the terms are right. Come 2008, people like Dave Richards can 'cheaply' acquire cars from the lead teams: the Prodrive team running a McLaren car should be able to beat Williams, pushing it further down the field, surely this will be the final nail in the coffin for Williams? Likewise, Toyota might be treading water at the moment, but these new off-the-shelf teams threaten to make life increasingly difficult for struggling manufacturers, it's in Toyota's interests to take a team which understands F1, add engines, badging and funding, and leave it to do what it does best.

I think a better option would be to adopt the Mercedes approach, not the BMW

We think of Mclaren as the team NOT mercedes & yet they are classed as a manufacturer owned team. Mercedes didn't buy 100% & Mclaren, as a consequence, have never lost their identity.

Toyota should aquire 40 - 70% of Williams, keep the name as it is & as was stated before, pump the Japanese funds into Grove.

They should also offer Ross Brawn an equity stake to take over the principles job from SFW, when he decides to enjoy his retirement!

Last I heard: Leonovo, AT&T, & RBS are big time corporate brands paying dough to Williams.
Don't know what crack you are sniffing.

the only revolutionary - ie clean sheet - design was the Predator nose.
That got the aerodynamicist fired.

Whenever I hear a F1 guy say "new car" and "revolutionary" in the same sentence, I immediately think "lost" or "unbelieveably lost".

Do you how much they are paying?
Sponsors aren't retarded.
They sponsor according to the standing of the team and it hasn't been going well for Williams for several years.

Renault didn't have a huge budget compared to others and dominated F1 for 2 seasons.

But I'm sceptical about this kind of announcements as well.

Maybe Williams just went up to them and said "'92, '93, '96, '97 WDC, won a race two years ago, got a pole last year, ran towards the front this year, big manufacturer backing for next season, with a very promising rookie ex-GP2 champion'. I doubt sponsors really care that much about F1, and that resumé sounds a whole lot more impressive than, say, Honda's. Hell, even Mclaren can't do much more than match that, at least until this year.

I don't think big companies will just suddenly drop huge amounts of money at a nice resume. I'd think they would make a little investigation on Williams, at least.

Well, very strong track record, strong pedigree and association with success. And nobody knows where they'll be in a couple of years. And on the basis of how Honda and Toyota run their F1 teams, I'd be willing to believe anything about major companies' approaches to Formula One.

What smart sponsors are going to look at is evidence that a team can use the resources at its disposal effectively and efficiently. Jordan was a perfect example of how not to do that. They had a good year, got a bunch of money, and promptly fell on their face.

That is why 2007 has been such an important year for Williams. They've come into good engines and a little more money than 2006 and they've improved their standing considerably. They started the year with a solid, if not front-running, car and have kept their development pace more or less on par with the big dogs. That is gold when it comes time to go back to prospective sponsors and say, "Well, the 75mil we had in 2007 was all well and good, but we are prepared to move to the next level with your additional contribution of 50 mil."

I think the biggest difference between Williams 2006 and Williams 2007 is reliability, on pace they're pretty much the same, except last year their form fluctuated more (from fighting with the leaders in Australia and Monaco, to lower midfield in the last couple of races). I think reliability alone has been good enough to bump them from 8th in the championship to 5th.

That is not the "Toyota Way", so I doubt very much it would happen. They could have done it easily when they started, and or followed Honda's method, but its not at all their style. They like to do things themselves.

However they do have strong associates in business - Denso has a higher return on capital than does Toyota, and Toyotas on average I think are 25% Denso (although statistics can be made to exaggerate things). And Williams and Toyota do have a sort of partnership already - Williams get their free engine thanks to Sir Frank flying to Japan and I'd love to know what he talked about because Sir Frank probably understands the Japanese quite well after associating with Honda over the years. And Toyota are using a Williams continuous gearbox - I suspect its unreliability last year was part of the development promise Sir Frank made when he got the engine deal?

With the changes in the rules about chassis sharing, it would also be possible for one or the other to make a chassis - but Sir Frank has been the most against that whole policy. But it would open up many resources for the team that did not have to develop and manufacture the chassis. But we'd know about it if that was happening.

Information and technology exchanges must be happening with the whole drive train programs for both teams.

But if Williams beats Toyota handily next year, then I would imagine the German based operation would be fairly upset - but who knows what Japan's HQ would think about that? They might learn something about speed and efficiency in a smaller operation?

Renault were a very big operation though. More than 700 people involved, and they sub contracted all their motor assembly operations to Mechachrome. Plus they used various Renault personnel as experts on loan for various projects. They are a big player. IMO a lot of their talk about being small is related to keeping their shareholders content. Williams was almost broke after BMW ditched them - they even had to sacrifice their testing program due to lack of funds.

Return of the Walrus?

Scorf, quite right - I think I was envisioning McLaren more than BMW as I still had SFW leading the team. I think Ross Brawn would be a great replacement

As regards sponsors, I distinctly remember the team saying that it was much easier to find sponsors for this year, as they are associated with the World's largest car company, Toyota. This season they have not only beaten the factory Toyota team (so far) but they have Toyota power next year too. I don't see any reason why they should be struggling for sponsors especially with their title sponsor AT&T, RBS, Lenovo, Accenture and Allianz already on board. However, I am not sure when all of Williams' sponsorship deals expire.

Williams don't have the resources to compete with the top teams on the aero front, but they understand what it takes to compete at the top and, with sufficient long-term funding (and a little time to recruit top talent into the organisation), they can be fighting at the top once more. If Toyota were to strike now they might convince Rosberg (surely a huge talent for the future) to sign a contract with Williams-Toyota for several years, such a driver could spearhead a resurgence.

I don't believe Williams is strong enough to offer much in the way of technology to Toyota over the next few years and, besides engines, I can't see the information flowing from Toyota to Williams. Williams are currently thrashing Toyota in the constructors championship, proving it's management nous, not money alone, that produces successful F1 teams.

If I'm right and both Williams and Toyota are likely to be pushed further toward the back of the grid with the 'B' teams allowed by the 2008 rule changes, then it appears Toyota have only a small window of opportunity to switch to backing Williams, before it vanishes altogether.

Not a much as the mannies but plenty for Williams to be 500 strong headcount, 2 24/7 windtunnel, & hunting down Renault.

I believe Williams will have shields in their reartyres in Monza also...

^^^ that belongs to Williams 2007 or Williams FW29 thread?

Sorry you're right, I didnt pay much attention, I'm in an internet cafe abroad...

The last time they did was with the walrus car, which only wrote history as one of the most appalling designs ever realised. :\ Don't get me wrong, I'm not being cynical, just... realistic?

By my knowledge only DC is certain of a 2008 RBR drive so far... Not that I expect anything else. The way things stand this year, RBR just owes Webber another chance, a fair one, in 08.

Williams has two wind tunnels, one on site. Their weakness not in the hardware, its in how much they use their resources (24/7 x 2) or less than that, and in the people that add value to that work. They have employed additional aero staff since last year too. Their CFD appears to be weaker though. Frank Dernie is also joining Toyota, he was at Williams when they had less than 20 people, and he joined Williams again in 2003, he's an aero guy so its quite possible that there is some assistance between the two companies quietly going on anyway?

The driver is a waste of money - there's no point in having the best driver without a winnable car. Ralf and Trulli are both capable of winning, but its the car that has stopped them from having such an opportunity. The focus must be on the car - and Sir Frank would agree with that, he likes top drivers, but he's never paid them top dollars so he only keeps them for a while. He has always thought the car is more important than the driver, and these days that is more the case than it used to be.

The thrashing you are talking about is 10 points. And you thought Nico might get Toyota going - but slow, old Wurz is thrashing Nico in the championship. Things aren't so simple.

The issue with management nous is likely whether Toyota's large scale manufacturing models can work in a job shop environment that must react accurately to complex innovations in an environment of constant change. In areas of electronics, drive train, rear suspension, cooling technologies, the ECU program, Williams could gain a lot from Toyota.

Williams are talking about a leap frog car - if it resembles the new Toyota in some areas, that would be evidence of some cooperation between the teams IMO. Toyota and Honda have both not had scalloped side pods - its as if the Tokyo Uni aeero department missed an area of their training. There is a reason for not going that route, but using empirical evidence it was clearly wrong. If the Toyota comes out with scalloped sidepods next year and a rear end looking like the Williams with similar cooling layouts, then I'd say there is cooperation between the teams. Frank Dernie moving is an example of Williams assisting Toyota IMO, he's an old hand aero guy plus a lot more.

Toyota are already backing Williams. And why would Toyota quit F1? From the marketing perspective, the average age of their buyers is falling - F1 is part of that program. They lead the world in hybrids - hybrid power might come to F1. Their sales continue to grow - the F1 program for Toyota is not just about winning, being there is more important than just winning. Honda are more afraid of not winning that Toyota are, and Honda are not doing too well this year. For Toyota to stay is a cost benefit issue - and the benefits outway the costs by many times over for Toyota. If they were to win it would just be icing on the cake. I think that Williams can only help them in that process.

Sir Frank though cannot last forever - he said that BMW never even talked to him about them buying into or buying outright Williams. The Sauber move came as a surprise. Since then I think Sir Frank must have thought that an alliance with Toyota was the way to go - he's got that, and one day surely Toyota must be the manufacturer to buy into Williams.

Webber signed for two years when he quit Williams.

Coulthard confirmed at Red Bull for 2008

I hope that they have the car to do that for next year . I would be more than happy if they maintain their form for next year and keep scoring points . Any improvement over that would be fantastic.

They don't have the financial clout to fund development at the same level as the manufacturers. The knock on effect is that they don't attract the top engineers. Williams needs a secure and substantial revenue stream, which is precisely what Toyota can provide. Dernie is going to Toyota to advise them on aero development apparently, when what Toyota needs is management restructuring.



I've long said that about Toyota: their drivers are perfectly good enough as they don't seem to be going anywhere. The flip side is that no truly top driver is going to be interested in Toyota, no matter what they are willing to pay. Williams appear to have a truly top driver, if Toyota agreed to go into full partnership with Williams and finance them properly then they might be able to secure Rosberg for a long term contract, he would be perfect to spearhead the revival of the team. SFW made the comment about the cars vs. the drivers when the cars were the best in the field, with the current Williams it seems that Rosberg is flattering the car.

Williams have double Toyota's points on a fraction of the budget, that's not simply down to luck. I think Toyota's problems are twofold: their management processes are too slow and are too risk averse (arse covering), and they want to recruit people from within Toyota, rather than from within F1. On the second point, surely it would be better to get a successful team up and running and then place Toyota people in there, rather than trying to win by imposing the Toyota development model. That way they might actually learn something!



I'm sure Toyota are desperate to win, it's not simply about cost benefits and taking part.