Anyone have a clue as to what Ferrari is using in their tyres? I would think something more obscure than nitrogen?

And its purpose?.. have they found a way to help slow the loss of pressure and temperature during slow running?

Mr. Coughlan

























That was too easy.

I'd be interested in views on this one. Doesn't the ideal gas law effectively say that one can't do an awful lot to control the change in pressure with gas temperature, no matter what gas you use? Any advantage would then come down to using the different specific heat capacity and "conductivity" of different gases but its not immediately obvious what benefit could be obtained within the range of different gas types. It would be interesting to hear from others on this.

sapio

Answer from the WMSC decision:

"
3.13
Mr de la Rosa’s e-mail to Mr. Alonso on 25 March 2007 at 01.43 identified a gas
that Ferrari uses to inflate its tyres to reduce the internal temperature and
blistering. The e-mail concludes with a statement (in relation to the gas) that
“we’ll have to try it, it’s easy!”.
"


http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/178...sion_130907.pdf

CO2 FIA leaked the censored text with the transcripts today.

That's disappointing. Being Ferrari I figured it would be something was very expensive as well as completely pointless. My money was on Argon

Argon is totally passe. It is used all the time in TIG welding, and is easy to get/commonly available.

No challenge in that, now is there?

I would expect something like Xenon or gaseos Uranium or some other pointlessness.

Uranium hexifloride, that be the ticket. WPT

Schumacher's farts.

Hey now, there's an idea!

Fast Gas!!

This is pretty interesting, in fact. What technical advantage, if any, does carbon dixoide have over plain old air, or old fashioned nitrogen? Apart, that is, from removing tiny quantities of carbon from the atmosphere...

And putting it into other tiny parts of the atmosphere?

It's gotta be related somehow to heat/energy retention. A little greenhouse inside the tyres..?

Wouldn't any dry gas be essentially the same?

No, each gas would have different characteristics. I don't know how big of a deal would be, but mass and thermal capacity would vary. So a higher thermal capacity gas would take longer heat up and sustain tyre temperature steadier, like a damper.

Found some data:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/spesific...ases-d_159.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ideal-gas-law-d_157.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific...ases-d_334.html

But my math is too rusty to conclude anything.

No, no, no....its helium!! [G.W.Bush mode]...see.. this makes the car lighter!..and..er..

Probably something engineered to cater for thier new third spring. Run soft pressure at low speeds and increase pressure in relation with speed to get some stability as pressure increase from what would normally be a soft tyre. 2¢

IIRC, Lockheed tried helium with the SR-71. Evidently it leaked out of the tires...Ben Rich hypothesized that the helium molecules were so small that they easily leaked out of the tires.....

There are gases whose molecules are too big to diffuse out through rubber, so you periodically would have to let some gas out as the nitrogen from the atmosphere diffused in, over inflating the tire.

In an offhand way, reminds me of a discussion here about supersonic aircraft engine inlets "creating thrust."

Yah.

Hmmm... usually it's hydrogen that leaks out of whatever container you use... But that's only after you have used the advantage that hydrogen makes the car even lighter than helium... The main disadvantage with hydrogen is that tyres may explode in an environment containing oxygen.

Helium - to reduce unsprung weight? How about a gas that allows for very quick tire heat up by transferring heat from brakes to wheels to tires or conversely a gas that slows the heat transfer. Last (and my best) a gas that does pass slowly through the tire and offsets tire pressure build-up as the tire heats- new tires would be inflated to the optimal first lap temp. not underflated to offset the inevitable pressure build-up after 3-4 laps.

It could be like the highest-tech leak ever

Sorry to dig this up again but theres a whole lot more to this story, this has all been misunderstood in the transcripts and misreported however the full story is going to break in about 6 weeks and it will have a ripple effect throughout motorsport.

It also effects the design of the Ferrari

Sam Collins
Deputy Editor
Racecar Engineering

I suppose there was a point hidden in that post Sam, but I'm not clever enough to discern it.

put it this way if you think the gas is CO2 it aint.

Ok, here is my best guess: For a long time racers (cheaters) have been playing with the idea of treating tire surfaces with special solutions to soften the rubber and hopefully gain grip. Poor racers have used these commercial solutions to extend the useful life of tires and to restore old stones. Ferrari has found a treatment that they apply on the inside of the tire mixed with the inflation gas. In 6 weeks we will know. I wonder if Bridgestone has been party to this secret?

Of course with a lighter than air gas, the wheel/tire combo would weigh (a little) less and the car would both accelerate and brake quicker.

It would be nice if you let the cat out of the bag so we could discuss, rather than hinting at it.

I'm guessing that rather than wanting to actually participate in a discussion, he was just cynically spamming the forum with a teaser intended to impel people to buy the forthcoming issue of RCE or to make himself look well-connected and "in the loop" without actually saying anything even remotely substantive. Actual value added by his comments thusfar: 0.

CO2 is not the obvious candidate anyway.

N2 is.

In fairness autodrome did contribute something by informing us that there is substance to this matter, and that it will come to light shortly.

Nope, it wouldn't. While the weight might be marginally less with a lighter than air gas, the mass of the wheel / tire combo would be the same as would it's acceleration.

If it weren't this way, magnesium wheel weights would sell like hot-cakes.

He is saving the revelation for RCE's dozens of paying customers.

Thanks. Over the next few days, the phrase "magnesium wheel weights" will pop into my head and I will burst out laughing for no apparent reason.

Essentially, we are talking about a less dense wheel and tyre, so both it's weight and mass would be less. The total vehicle mass would remain the same, with extra ballast, to meet the rules. So, the only effects on the car are lower rotational inertia - which would only show up under acceleration and braking, and lower unsprung mass - which may or may not have an effect on cornering.

Look like jmorris got it right to me...

Regards, Ian

I'd think you'll find inert gasses are preferable.

So pure oxygen would be a non-starter then?

What's the weight and momemnt of inertia for an F1 wheel today?

Less dense by the difference in molar mass of the gases, since the wheel and tyre will be constant.

Thus 1/5th of jack shit, IMO. In the rarefied air of F1, I suppose it would be worth examining for that "extra .001s per lap." Ugh.

It's not like Ferrari have noticeably dominated qualifying or first/out lap performances.

IMO either this gas is making a poor car look good, or is having no ground-breaking influence.

Let me guess, you're the guy that can't pick up the air tank because the pressure gauge on the hose says it has 100 pounds of air in it?

"
I'd think you'll find inert gasses are preferable.


"

Yes, the tire would degrade massively over a weekend if it were in contact with a really reactive gas like oxygen, for example.

Oh.

Well, maybe they have to use a low-mass gas to compensate for the extra inertia from those ugly-looking "hub caps" they use.

As the tyres contain approx 100 grams of air (if air is used), using some exotic gas will save say 50 grams per wheel, making for a really small change in moment of inertia. Negligible I'd say, and certainly less than that caused by rubber loss due to tyre wear.

Arghh...sorry I mentioned helium...was just a joke chaps... :\
the most important thing on any gas in tyres is presure control, thus dry air just as good as N2 or anything else...

Thank you RDV for making that point explicitly.

Barring a chemical reaction taking place between the inflation gas and the tire :\ , I can't see it making any real difference what gas is used to inflate the tires. Helium would be cool because the crew could take hits off the filling hose and make funny noises.

Incidentally, I thought the tires are initially inflated well in advance before action even starts not just prior to fitting on the car.

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2003/...k/pressure.html

I was being funny.

Half the carcase is in continuous contact with one of the most reactive gases known. No too sure what your schoolboy website is supposed to prove. At least one of the staments it makes is plain wrong. Clue: what happens if you combine oxygen with a hydrocarbon chain?

Well not entirely sure, I gather most conceivable gases follow the state law of the ideal gas pretty well especially under such relatively low pressure and temperature, hence the pressure is really only dependent on temperature. However gases with different constant volume heat capacities may well have less temperature fluctuations hence less pressure fluctuations.

Incidentally the CO2 which allegedly was the mystery Ferrari gas has C_v = 28.46 J/(mol * K) where as nitrogen has C_v = 20.76 J/(mol *K), as oxygen has almost identical value C_v for dry air is also in the ball park of 21 J/(mol*K) where C_v is the constant volume heat capacity.