Was thinking about this the other day, what are the main factors that determines "series" model number changes for manufacturers? For example Porsche 993 to 996 to 997, BMW "E" series, etc, etc.

I can't seem to find a pattern, chassis/platform change must be one of the factors, at least for some manufacturers, but again, for example the Lotus Elise series 1 and 2 have the same aluminum tub chassis, so in this case it wasn't. Marketing? Engine, Body?

Your thoughts on this are highly appreciated, specially if you're in the known for any of famous car series (like BMW and Porsche mentioned above).

In the case of Porsche, each number represented a new car whether it was a race car or a street car starting with 355. The 911 and 912 were actually 901 and 902 but Peugeot objected because their cars are not sequential product factory numbers, but trade names and all 90? are theirs.. The actual 911 project was not the 911 we know today. Even a 993,996,997 are know as 911s.
Toyota wanted to use T150 for the Tundra after their first pick-up on the US market was named T100. Ford objected because of their F100,F150 F250, etc.series.
BMW has numerical numbers depicting their models which are not internal but marketing numbers. 1,2,3,5,6,7 series. Mercedes has A, B, C, E, G, S and M classes.
Cadillac used to have name plates, but now they have confusing, CTS,STS,DTS, XLR and the hot rod versions add a V. Its all bullshit.
GM and Ford have their 3 digit model code imbedded into the VIN number. Some internal option codes become registered trade marks and names.IE: Z06, ZR1, Z28 are suspension packages. A Corvette guy knows that a Corvette Z07 was an internal code for a high performance suspension package but the code is not a trade name. If you see drilled rotors on the C6 Vette, you know it has the Z51 suspension high performance suspension package. Same with engines. LT5 didn't make it to a trade name for the ZR1 Corvette but L98,LT1,L88, etc did. This practice dates back to the earliest cars. Model T Ford, SJ Duesenburg, 540K, 500ssk and all the W race cars from Mercedes. DB1 thru DB9 and so on. I prefer name plates than numbers. XK,SS,XJR, E Type, D Type and SType for Jags were both model and trade names.
Id rather have a Gullwing than a 300SL. Imagine if they started using numbers on Rolls Royce. How about C2 instead of the proper Stingray.

Thank you for your input, I guess my main question is what has to happen for a manufacturer to create a new series or as you said a "new car" from a ongoing model series.

My conclusion thus far is that it must vary wildly from make to make, I think BMW "E" series change (ex, series 3 E46 to new series 3 E90) explicitly implies a new chassis whereas Lotus (in the case of the Elise at least) doesn't.

What makes you so sure that there haven't been any changes in the Lotus chassis that you mention? Industry typically avoid using two part numbers or descriptions for identical parts.

Damned Germans screwd it all up with numbers instead of names. Mercedes moved the E to the front and the back of the numbers to keep it fresh. The numbers represent the engine size in CCs with an additiona I or D etc. Im not familiar with BMW E series. They have 3 series and the next two numbers depict engine size. 325 etc.except for M series. The new M3 will have a 4.4 ltr V10. I guess when they think of new models they will use the remaining letters of the Alphabet. If you ask a guy what car he drives, he may say a Mercedes. He really means a C class. If he had a E or S class, he would say so. Mercedes uses additional letters in the particular class, to depict two doors and coupes and convertibles as well as AMG. All crap and all marketing. Some guys buy badges to pretend that they have the higher model of the series. How many guys stick Hemi badges on their MOPARS?
Remember, 190s, 220 SE, 250 SE, 550 SEL? Snob factor included in these names. BMW 735,750, 760. 2000, 2002 I, 2002 IS, 525, 550, 550 ES usually represent Muscle. All bullshit.
The internal numbers at Porsche for the 911 was 901. Porsche used 900 thru 909 internally but could not use them as trade names. Turbo, GT2 GT3, S4, 4S are all 911s, because of marketing.

What happens when a manufacturer release a new version of a model, is that they have based the new model on a new platform. These days this typically occur every seventh year or so, but sometimes a model may survive longer than that. Especially manufacturers which produce lower volumes tend to have longer intervals between their model changes. Between each new model change there are typically one or more "facelifts" where some larger "package" of updates are introduced.

If you take the Elise as an example (it's really a bad example, since it's not a high volume production car), "series 2" is mainly a facelifted version of the original Elise. It's not a new model.

Lamborghini is in the enviable position of having no legacy designs. Each car is new with its own name. Each car is named after a famous bull, and thats no bull. Imagine terminating the glorious Deville or the Elderado name plates. I swear, if I ever get my darling wife into a Cadillac, I'm going to peel off that stoopid DTS badge and replace it with, Deville. I cant imagine BMw or Mercedes getting away from their way of determining the size or class of their cars. There will always be an E class or a 5 series.

None of you guys have any idea what you are talking about. That is not how they select the model names and numbers AT ALL. Here is how they really do it:

Every year at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, on Thursday night a small delegation from each automaker from all around the world walks just around the corner from Cobo Convention Center to a bar on Fort Street for their annual meeting. This location is a venerable institution in the automotive industry, steeped in history and tradition. I can see this establishment from my office window so I took you a picture...



Anyway, once everyone gets good and liquored up and they are all in the proper mood, they take a stack of old advertisements from ladies’ magazines and the beer labels they have peeled off their bottles and – sort of like making a ransom note – cut them up in little pieces and mix them up in a pile on the floor. Then they take turns drawing their little slips of paper from the pile for their new model names and numbers for the following year. If there is a duplication or dispute over a certain name they settle it by going out in the alley and seeing who can pee the furthest.

THAT is EXACTLY how all the model and platform names and numbers are assigned and reserved for all the new vehicles, and they have been doing it that way since 1971 that I know of. Honestly, I have no idea where you guys get some of your ideas. Sometimes it sounds like you are just making it up as you go along.

That splains a lot. MGuire lives next to a bar.

Didn't you live in one of those during the conflict in Southeast Asia?

His displays of insanity make me think he lived behind bamboo bars during his 'nam stint.

But not even he would have come up with "Ford Probe".

How would you like one of these babies up your ass?

For many years the motoring press had known that Land Rover was working on a lightweight model called Pegasus. Every month in the mags you could read the latest rumours pumped up into facts by beer.

What they didn't know was that LR used Pegasus as a rolling project name, it wasn't a car at all.

The numbering system that's always confused me is Peugeot's. Sometimes they just seem to give the car a bit of a facelift and give it a new number (e.g. 206/207) and sometimes they keep an unchanged number for ages, even after the mid-life facelift (e.g. 406).

It seems the decision is purely a marketing one based on them feeling a car looks out of date if it keeps the same model number for more than 5 years. The other question is what happens when the x09 series get replaced - will they go back to x01, or will we have x010 or something?

On a more racing-related note, when Ron leaves McLaren would that be enough of a change to warrant a change from MP4/x to a new numbering system? Maybe they could start a Merc-style one, call it the X240 series or something.

Dont know about modern Toyota's but before they used the following

eg: KE 35 (mid 70's Corolla)

K = engine series (4k 1300)

E = body type (in this case E is Corolla, A is Celica, J is Land Cruiser)

3 = which series (1974 - 1978 for Corolla)

5 = body style (0 is sedan, 2 is 2 door notchback, 5 is coupe, 6 is station wagon)

So a TE30 is a similar car but with the 1600cc 'T' series engine and sedan shape. It was pretty simple system, dont know if same today.

Let's see...

F-4E

Mk-82

Zipper Suited Sun God

Hhmmmm....

None of the above, thanks.

1970. 'Donkey's Dick' makes it a C. Zunis dead. Photo-op bird.

Indeed. Donkey's Dick and the port-side scoop made it look like an "E," but you can never be sure.

Hard to see the Zunis...photo didn't scan well. Cool pic, actually. I don't have anything like that from my days on the KC-135 or the C-5. I do have some cool shots from the boom pod of the -135 ... one of my favorites is an F-15E loaded out with ordnance.

Ah well.

Tanker boys were unsung heros. They never had to buy their drinks. To this day, 3 beers and I'm over and out. Photos are old.

in case of the Pug, the new model name is given only when they introduce a new model, i.e. a car with enough structural changes.... for example, 207 is completely different and much larger car then the 206... but all of their models have a mid life facelift which will include exterior changes (mostly plastic/front ends bumpers etc, but no or very little sheet metal changes) and new interiors sometimes... but keeping the name..

Ah, that was the cause of my confusion. I've only seen the 207 in passing, and due to the general similarity in shape to the 206 I assumed it was just a major facelift. I didn't realise it was a genuinely new car.

Coming back to my second question, anyone any idea what they'll do when the x09 models are replaced? I guess x10 would be the logical progression, but that departs from the whole zero in the middle thing (which I believe they trademarked).

my guess is that they will go back to x01..... and burry us with all sorts of retro marketing crap...

Legend has it that when Ford asked Shelby to develope a high performance model for their new Mustang they sent down a bunch of marketing guys to come up with a name for the car. Shelby got tired of the endless meetings and asked one of his guys, "how far do you think it is over to the corner of the building next door." When his friend said, "about 350 feet", Shelby jumped up and told the marketing types that the name for the new car was going to be the GT350. Names and numbers are simply marketing items.

Can somebody explain the origin and meaning (if any) of Citroen's Xantia and Xara models. The only two to my knowleage that do not use a two-letter designation and having somewhat exotic spelling (no idea about pronunciation). Now they adopted a "C" prefixed naming convention.

OT
phantom II
Nice photo.
At that time I had just went to high school and here, at the other side of the curtain, on official holidays, we used to march in front of the local party officials, some of us carrying "Yankee go home!" slogans.

Know what you mean about them yankees. We, in the south, have been carrying those slogans since 1864.
The Irony is that they are the communists now.

I am afraid we should go to another forum with this OT but yes, history repeats itself an people don't seem to learn.
At least no one will believe nowadays that American soldiers go into battle drunken with ... CocaCola.
(We've been told such things in the 70-ties.)