Should the safety car pit rule be changed?

Like the title say, what do you think after watching the Melbourne 2008 race?

Alternative would be so complex that maybe its best to use what it is now. As long as there wont be SC in every race.

Maybe there should be a new flag rule to force drivers to engage their pit lane speed limiter for the accident related sector.

It doesn't need to be changed at all, it's just that when F1 goes to cramped tracks everyone get the heebyjeeby because of safety cars. When you have been following American racing as much as you have Formula 1, you'd know that safety car and pace car situations ALWAYS screw things up. Difference is that in America, teams can handle it, in Formula 1, panic ensures.

Jesus christ, guys, if we take away Melbourne, Monaco and Montreal, there are 0.1 safety car situations every race at average, if that many. Calm down!

The rules are bogus. Just watch Canada 2007. Too bad Rubens had to suffer this year but no one spoke up for Felipe and Fisi last year...

Yes it needs to be reviewed... But the best way to fix the problem is to stop crashing, and therefore no longer need the SC.

Originally posted by 512 TR
The rules are bogus. Just watch Canada 2007. Too bad Rubens had to suffer this year but no one spoke up for Felipe and Fisi last year...

Pass a red light and you're out. It's just as simple as that. Deal with it, I did when Montoya made the same mistake in Canada 2005, and you don't see me crying. But this thread is not about running red lights, it's about the current safety car rules.

yes change it...i don't care who can win from the SC appearing, but PLEASE don't close the pits...there are people who can run out of fuel and end the race through no fault of their own, no incident, no problem...this is unfair

No need to change the rules at all - after what happened with Fisi and Massa last year in Canada, you would have thought that all the teams would be on the ball enough to remind drivers of the pit exit lights, much like they remind the driver of the white line on the pit exit after Ralf fell foul of it at the Nurburgring in 2001.

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
yes change it...i don't care who can win from the SC appearing, but PLEASE don't close the pits...there are people who can run out of fuel and end the race through no fault of their own, no incident, no problem...this is unfair

The alternative is what Alonso did in Brazil 2003. Choose the lesser bad, and you'll end up with what we have. I prefere what we have.

The safety car period is not a problem but the pit rule during the safety car period now is chaotic.

I prefer to see how the teams reacted to change their pit strategy before this by bringing in one or both of their drivers whenever a safety car was deployed, sometimes the drivers would queue up behind each other to take advantage of the safety car period.

Before this new rule, a driver could get a disadvantage from the safety car period if the team didn't react accordingly WHEN the safety car was deployed but now a driver would get a disadvantage from the safety car problem when the team didn't react accordingly BEFORE the safety car was deployed.

The problem now is that nobody knows when exactly a safety car will be deployed so how could the team react BEFORE the safety car is deployed?

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Pass a red light and you're out. It's just as simple as that. Deal with it, I did when Montoya made the same mistake in Canada 2005, and you don't see me crying. But this thread is not about running red lights, it's about the current safety car rules.

You're right, this thread is not about red lights but it is not about safety car rule neither, it is about the pit rule during safety car period.

Originally posted by alg7_munif
The safety car period is not a problem but the pit rule during the safety car period now is chaotic.

It's only chaotic because it's a fairly new regulation. It's not chaotic in series that have been running this system for years. I mean, If teams in Champ Car could pin this down, and even take advantage of it with the fraction of a budget, then surly teams in Formula 1 can too.

And to any argument about running out of fuel, all you have to do is have a 3 lap margin when you decide to pit. If you have that, and it's optional, you'll simply NEVER run out of fuel because of a safety car. It's that simple.

this is not a gp. it´s babyprix.

for babies with long mustaches and blond genuine girls.

totally snoring. who controls the chaos? who calls for 2 'legal' pitstops outside the chaos?

who is marketing this. those are the people.

and yes. i´m addicted to see this staged show. possibly not for long. ;]

at least we have kimi.

Originally posted by alg7_munif
You're right, this thread is not about red lights but it is not about safety car rule neither, it is about the pit rule during safety car period.

But the pit is never closed during a Formula 1 race if not a safety car is on the track. This is a new rule, so of course it's about the safety car rules. Are you joking :

Originally posted by VresiBerba
It's only chaotic because it's a fairly new regulation. It's not chaotic in series that have been running this system for years. I mean, If teams in Champ Car could pin this down, and even take advantage of it with the fraction of a budget, then surly teams in Formula 1 can too.

And to any argument about running out of fuel, all you have to do is have a 3 lap margin when you decide to pit. If you have that, and it's optional, you'll simply NEVER run out of fuel because of a safety car. It's that simple.

It is not about running out of fuel, it is about a driver getting an unfair disadvantage just because he didn't pit BEFORE the safety car was out and the team couldn't do anything about it.

Even when he still has 10 laps of fuel in his car, he would still get a huge disadvantage when he was leading with a big gap just because he didn't pit BEFORE the safety car was out. Before this, the team could react by bringing him in WHEN the safety car is deployed and the damage can be minimized. At that time the driver could also get a disadvantage from the safety car if he didn't pit in time but that is actually the team's fault because they didn't react accordingly.

Now, even when he had a 30s lead before the safety car was out, he would lose a lot of positions just because he needs to wait for for the cars to queue up before pitting and the team couldn't do anything to help.

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Pass a red light and you're out. It's just as simple as that. Deal with it, I did when Montoya made the same mistake in Canada 2005, and you don't see me crying. But this thread is not about running red lights, it's about the current safety car rules.

A red light is a red light, true! It's true when you're on your way to work. But it shouldn't be a factor in F1! Afterall F1 is and should always be the pinnacle, right?

I can't understand how on earth can someone defend the current shitty safety car rule we have.

It was okay as it was, just force them to drive within a maximum speed through the yellow flag zone. It is harder to manage, ok, but it's a lot more just, and justice should be above all.

I'm talking about Heiki and Kimi situation during the race in Melbourne. Heiki drove brilliantly and built quite a gap to secure 2nd place but the safety car pit rule ruined his race.

Kimi could have been on podium(provided that he could finish the race) with such a great move at the start of the race and his pace with heavy fuel load was stunning, he was already on his way into the pit lane but needed to move out again just because the safety car was deployed.

Both of them did an excellent job but got an unfair disadvantage just because they didn't pit BEFORE the safety car was out. The damage of the safety car period on their race could be minimized if they were allowed to react accordingly when the safety car was deployed.

Originally posted by 512 TR
A red light is a red light, true! It's true when you're on your way to work. But it shouldn't be a factor in F1! Afterall F1 is and should always be the pinnacle, right?

Ignoring the very fact that this is way off-topic, why the hell should passing a red light in Formula one be any different that of on your way to work? In fact, the two instances are very closely related; a red light means stop, Period. If you drive a Volvo through a red light on your way to your day job or if you drive your a Ferrari through a red light to win a race is irrelevant. A red light means stop in either case. Why the hell do you think a light of red is universely used to signal "stop" at all?!

Sometimes you're so clueless it's not even funny.

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Ignoring the very fact that this is way off-topic, why the hell should passing a red light in Formula one be any different that of on your way to work? In fact, the two instances are very closely related; a red light means stop, Period. If you drive a Volvo through a red light on your way to your day job or if you drive your a Ferrari through a red light to win a race is irrelevant. A red light means stop in either case. Why the hell do you think a light of red is universely used to signal "stop" at all?!

Sometimes you're so clueless it's not even funny.

Have you even read the latest interview with Rubens on this matter? Remember, Rubens, is going to be the driver with the most F1 races under his belt. Do you care about his view? I'm just wondering if Rubens can change your view, can he?

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Ignoring the very fact that this is way off-topic, why the hell should passing a red light in Formula one be any different that of on your way to work? In fact, the two instances are very closely related; a red light means stop, Period. If you drive a Volvo through a red light on your way to your day job or if you drive your a Ferrari through a red light to win a race is irrelevant. A red light means stop in either case. Why the hell do you think a light of red is universely used to signal "stop" at all?!

Sometimes you're so clueless it's not even funny.

This thread is about the pit rule, not the red light. Sure a red light is a red light, the driver should stop for the red light but there is a difference between a red light to stop a driver from going out of the pit lane when the pace car with the rest of the pack are passing through the pit lane exit and a red light shown to tell that the pit lane is closed due to a stupid rule eventhough there is no direct danger involved. There could be a danger at the sector where there is an accident but the danger could be eliminated quite easily with just a speed limit flag rule for the related sector.

Originally posted by Ferrim
It was okay as it was, just force them to drive within a maximum speed through the yellow flag zone. It is harder to manage, ok, but it's a lot more just, and justice should be above all.

I think you have seriously misunderstood the very meaning of 'just'. First of all, a safety car on the track has absolutely nothing at all to do with justness. It's a circumstance of this competition. You just can't ignore, that circumstance, sometimes, calls for a safety car on the track to clear out debris of a crashed car. It's impossible to even begin to decribe it as just or unjust, it would go against every logic or reason.

That the pitlane is closed during a safety car period, does not alter the fact that any safety car period is convenient for some but for others it's not. It has always been like that. Always. It comes with the sport.

Jesus, I feel like describing the purpose of Play-Doh to a three year old

Originally posted by alg7_munif
This thread is about the pit rule, not the red light.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother

Originally posted by VresiBerba
But this thread is not about running red lights, it's about the current safety car rules.

The only alternative is to ban refueling.

Originally posted by 512 TR
Have you even read the latest interview with Rubens on this matter? Remember, Rubens, is going to be the driver with the most F1 races under his belt. Do you care about his view? I'm just wondering if Rubens can change your view, can he?

Yes I've read his views. Do I agree; to some extent. Does it alter the fact that he passed the red light; no.

Like I said before, you're off-topic.

[i]
Jesus, I feel like describing the purpose of Play-Doh to a three year old [/B]

No! The question is...should F1 be the pinnacle of motor racing or should it be Eurovision song contest (I know you'll get it...)?

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Yes I've read his views. Do I agree; to some extent. Does it alter the fact that he passed the red light; no.

Like I said before, you're off-topic.

I'm not off topic! We had this discussion last year after the Canadian GP. Maybe you missed it. It goes hand in hand.

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother

The safety car rules (no overtaking, distance between cars, and speed limit) are neccessary for the safety but the closing of the pit lane rule is not. I think that the yellow flag rule (no overtaking) and another flag rule for a speed limit at the related sector is enough to eliminate the danger at that sector.

You could say that some driver would ignore the speed limit rule and this will create a danger without the safety car but even behind a safety car, MS crashed by himself at Monaco some times ago and Nakajima crashed into Kubica at Melbourne yesterday.

Originally posted by CaptnMark
The only alternative is to ban refueling.

That won't change the fact that safety cars are needed, and safety cars are apparently what's unjust. I guess we have to ban safety cars to solve the problem

Originally posted by VresiBerba
That won't change the fact that safety cars are needed, and safety cars are apparently what's unjust. I guess we have to ban safety cars to solve the problem

It is not about the safety car rule, it is teh PIT RULE during the safety car period

Originally posted by 512 TR
No! The question is...should F1 be the pinnacle of motor racing or should it be Eurovision song contest (I know you'll get it...)?

I really shouldn't, but...

You know, I trust, that a song in the ESC are ruled to be no longer than 180 seconds? If Carola sings a song that's 196 seconds long, she'll be disqualified, just like Rubens when he passed the red light. What is it about rules you're not getting?

And you're STILL off-topic.

Originally posted by 512 TR


No! The question is...should F1 be the pinnacle of motor racing or should it be Eurovision song contest (I know you'll get it...)?

why is having a red light at the end of the pit lane to protect everybody and ensure that there are cars and drivers able to drive on the track because they haven't crashed NOT the pinnacle of racing?

That makes no sense...

I'm not sure that there is any good solution to refueling and the safety car, other than ban refuelling and tyre changes. Somebody's race will be compromised whichever situation is used.

I think part of the problem though is that the strategists on the F1 teams haven't sussed the best way to handle it yet, it's still alien to them. Teams in AOW seem to handle it okay most of the time, presumably through years of experience.

Originally posted by alg7_munif
It is not about the safety car rule, it is teh PIT RULE during the safety car period

I think by now, we're talking about the safety car rules wich today includes that; when a safety car is deployed, the pit will be closed. That IS the safety car rules, which we're talking about. The pit is not closed at ANY OTHER TIME.

Skip the semantics ( and there really isn't any) please.

Originally posted by VresiBerba
I think by now, we're talking about the safety car rules wich today includes that; when a safety car is deployed, the pit will be closed. That IS the safety car rules, which we're talking about.

Skip the semantics ( and there really isn't any) please.

So why did you suggest that the safety car should be banned? We are not talking about banning the safety car here, we are talking about the pit rule which didn't exist in 2006.

Originally posted by alg7_munif

It is not about the safety car rule, it is teh PIT RULE during the safety car period

whats your point? The safety car is deployed, the field forms up behind the SC, the SC sends lapped cars around to get out of the bloody way, then the pit lane opens.....thats how it works yes? the pitlane is then open (effectively) until the next safety car period, so in effect the pit lane isnt accessible for maybe 2 laps in a safety car period.....isn't it approximately 50% of the fuel usage for a lap behind the safety car compared to a flying lap? so 2 laps = 1 flying lap if that's the case (i stand to be corrected)... if the pit lane isn't closed when the SC is deployed, we have the prospect of cars racing back to the pits with the prospect of wreckage, debris or marshals on track at the time....it's not worth the risk

the SC rules are right atm, for me they should stay as they are.

Originally posted by blackgerby


why is having a red light at the end of the pit lane to protect everybody and ensure that there are cars and drivers able to drive on the track because they haven't crashed NOT the pinnacle of racing?

That makes no sense...

Watch last year's Canadian GP. Watch where Webber is when Felipe exits the pitlane. Is that the pinnacle of motor racing or is stupid?

they could keep the pits open but bring in a rule to make drivers put on the limiter before the second waved SC flag. thus you don't have alonso speeding into webber's wreck, or kova losing out so considerably. drivers going excessively slowly to allow their teammate to pit and move on get stop/gos.

Originally posted by alg7_munif
So why did you suggest that the safety car should be banned?

I know that sarcasm doesn't exactly translate well over text written on the net, but really

Originally posted by wrighty


whats your point? The safety car is deployed, the field forms up behind the SC, the SC sends lapped cars around to get out of the bloody way, then the pit lane opens.....thats how it works yes? the pitlane is then open (effectively) until the next safety car period, so in effect the pit lane isnt accessible for maybe 2 laps in a safety car period.....isn't it approximately 50% of the fuel usage for a lap behind the safety car compared to a flying lap? so 2 laps = 1 flying lap if that's the case (i stand to be corrected)... if the pit lane isn't closed when the SC is deployed, we have the prospect of cars racing back to the pits with the prospect of wreckage, debris or marshals on track at the time....it's not worth the risk

the SC rules are right atm, for me they should stay as they are.

Look at Kimi at Melbourne, he was already at the pit entrance but needed to move out back to the track just because the safety car was deployed at the same time which means tha the pit lane was closed then.

Instead of waiting for the field to form up behind the safety car, it is better to just let the cars near to the pit entrance to go into the pit lane. To avoid danger of the cars racing to the pit lane, just create a new rule that limits the cars' speed at the accident related sector just like the pit lane speed limit.

The situation now is the safety car would catch the race leader first while the last unlapped car could be more than 1min behind him and this last unlapped car could as well be in 10th positon. With the current rule, the 1min advantage of the race leader will become zero and if he pits after all the cars have formed a queue behind the safety car and he needs to rejoin in 10th position then.

Before this, the team could react accordingly whenever a safety car was deployed, instead of waiting for the last car to reach the safety car before allowed to pit, the race leader could just pit when he passed the pit entrance and rejoin back at 5th position instead of 10th. This way the damage to his race can be minimized.

There will be no problem of cars racing into the pit lane if there is a speed limit rule and no overtaking rule in place.

Maybe some would argue that it is hard to police the point where the speed limit should begin and some drivers would slow down later than the other so I think that the best way to do this is at a certain corner because the cars need to slow down for the corner anyway.

Originally posted by wrighty
whats your point? The safety car is deployed, the field forms up behind the SC, the SC sends lapped cars around to get out of the bloody way, then the pit lane opens.....thats how it works yes? ...

Not quite. It appears that most of the field is allowed to form up behind the SC, then the pit lane opens ... which means that runners still part of a lap down (like Bourdais) could get to pit a lap before those that are lined up behind the SC and gain a big (unfair?) advantage ...

If they tidied up that anomaly (perhaps by having the pit lane open about 10s before the SC + queue were due to pass pit entry) then I think SC / pit lane closure rule would be fine. Even for fuellers who stopped while lane closed, they will probably get a chance to do 10s stop'n'go after pit lane is opened but while SC still circulating, so may lose a few spots but at least won't lose 25-30 secs at racing speeds.

Originally posted by alg7_munif
Look at Kimi at Melbourne, he was already at the pit entrance but needed to move out back to the track just because the safety car was deployed at the same time which means tha the pit lane was closed then.

You don't get it do you. If Kimi would be able to dodge right into the pit because of a safety car at that moment, he would have GAINED BECAUSE OF THE SAFETY CAR!

I'm absolutely perplexed that you constantly fail to see that a safety car can either give or take depending on the situation and where drivers are on the track when the safety car is deployed. It's much, MUCH more fair to close the pit entry in a safety car situation because it stops certain drivers from having a TREMENDEOUS advantage of being in the right place on the track at the right time.

Your ignorance is absolutely amazing.

Originally posted by vandem

Not quite. It appears that most of the field is allowed to form up behind the SC, then the pit lane opens ... which means that runners still part of a lap down (like Bourdais) could get to pit a lap before those that are lined up behind the SC and gain a big (unfair?) advantage ...

If they tidied up that anomaly (perhaps by having the pit lane open about 10s before the SC + queue were due to pass pit entry) then I think SC / pit lane closure rule would be fine. Even for fuellers who stopped while lane closed, they will probably get a chance to do 10s stop'n'go after pit lane is opened but while SC still circulating, so may lose a few spots but at least won't lose 25-30 secs at racing speeds.

Nope, it's not possible to do the stop n' go penalty while SC is still deployed.

@VresiBerba
I think you are wrong about Kimi. If he was able to pit he would have lost position as in normal pitstop but would materialize his efforts to go from 15-th to 3-rd. Which is in no way unfair. Actually he lost and his efforts were zeroed.

I haven't thought much over this idea but what would you say about some delay in pitlane closing. Say it is closed after the SC had made nearly a whole lap and is nearing the pits entry.

Rules are becoming more and more complicated but do not bring fairness. I am also one of those who think that scraping off refueling is the most fair way to bring equal chances for all.

I can see a few possibilities to 'solve' this problem:

a) Ban refueling... that would be my choice.

b) When a Safety Car is required, Charlie Whiting hits a button which transmits a signal to ALL cars, which restricts them to the pit-lane limiter speed.

c) Allow cars into the pit lane after it has been closed, but ONLY FOR FUEL.
So Kimi could have come in, when he wanted to, (at 1/2 race... lap 29), but would still need to make a second stop later, for the hard tires.
Reubens could have come in without penalty, for his needed fuel, but still would have been disqualified for ignoring the red light at pit-out.

d) Have all teams declare to Charlie Whiting, in confidence, which lap they intend to make their first pit-stop.
You declare lap 20, the Safety Car comes out on lap 19, pits are closed, but you may still make your stop without penalty.
This would only work for the first stop though, and could be subject to abuse... you declare lap 15, but don't really need to stop until lap 20.

Originally posted by VresiBerba
You don't get it do you. If Kimi would be able to dodge right into the pit because of a safety car at that moment, he would have GAINED BECAUSE OF THE SAFETY CAR!

I'm absolutely perplexed that you constantly fail to see that a safety car can either give or take depending on the situation and where drivers are on the track when the safety car is deployed. It's much, MUCH more fair to close the pit entry in a safety car situation because it stops certain drivers from having a TREMENDEOUS advantage of being in the right place on the track at the right time.

Your ignorance is absolutely amazing.

You don't get it do you? There is a huge difference between gaining an advantage(or minimizing the damage) by doing the right thing WHEN the safety car is out and losing a lot because they didn't do the right thing BEFORE the safety car is out.

Yes the safety car could give an advantage to some and a disadvantage to others depending to the track position. However the way the team react when IT IS HAPPENING can minimize the damage done before this but now it depends to what the team did BEFORE the safety car period and this could change a sure race win to a no point position.

Nobody can predict when a safety will be out so how could anyone do the right thing before it is out? At least before this everyone knows when the safety car is out they only have a short time to react to gain advantage or minimized their damage.

Btw your lack of understanding the situation is amazing.

The pit rule should be kept simple. I suggested on another thread: The pits should be open all the time. Thats what they are there for. But red lights at the pit exit should be turned on when SC passes the pit lane entrance and put out after the whole queue has passed the exit. That would be quite fair.

Well I hate Safety Car deployment period!!! However accepting that they are a necessary evil, I don't have a major problem with the current rules, but its very harsh where a team has to choose to either run out of fuel or take a penalty through no fault of their own. There is, IMO, no perfect solution although I can come up with a few whacky ones!!!

All I can say is that the current rules are an improvement on the previous ones.

Ban refueling would seem to be the answer, but is there any sign that this is being considered? Certainly it would take a car redesign as they are all built around a half-tank, but is there any major objection to this?

Does anyone still think that with today's totally drilled pit teams there is any actual spectacle to a modern F1 pitstop?

The only thing that seems to happen from time to time is a Rubens Barrichello type incident where the pit crew is unnecessarily put at risk. Maybe this should be a new thread.

Originally posted by Mikael
The pit rule should be kept simple. I suggested on another thread: The pits should be open all the time. Thats what they are there for. But red lights at the pit exit should be turned on when SC passes the pit lane entrance and put out after the whole queue has passed the exit. That would be quite fair.

Totally agree, and that was done before this but FIA changed it because they said that the cars racing to the pit lane is not safe when there is a danger on the track.

They could just create a speed limit rule in a particular dangerous sector instead of closing down the pit lane to get the same safe result or even safer because the safety car doesn't actually catch any car which will be driving through the danger zone but it will let the cars pass through until it catches the race leader which could have already drove through the dangerous zone at high speed without the speed limit.