Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz has put Toro Rosso up for sale. Wants a new buyer by the end of next season. Did he ever need two teams in Formula One? Will this mean he sells Vettel's contract early for the maximum amount?
For Sale: Toro Rosso
Started by
potmotr
, Mar 18 2008 11:36
96 replies to this topic
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#2
Hacklerf
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:40
Jesus....
I hope Stoddart doesn't buy it, Hey Mr Richards, get your ass over here quick!!!
I hope Stoddart doesn't buy it, Hey Mr Richards, get your ass over here quick!!!
#3
dank
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:42
Where'd you read this?
It makes sense in a way. It is likely Red Bull would eventually pull the plug due to 'cloned' teams being outlawed at the end of 2009. I'll miss the 'bull' livery on the car
Edit: that'll be on the Autosport front page then!
It makes sense in a way. It is likely Red Bull would eventually pull the plug due to 'cloned' teams being outlawed at the end of 2009. I'll miss the 'bull' livery on the car
Edit: that'll be on the Autosport front page then!
#5
Josta
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:45
Go team Irve the Swerve. 
#6
potmotr
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:45
Originally posted by Hacklerf
Hey Mr Richards, get your ass over here quick!!!
You're right about that. But I wonder if Prodrive had its fingers burned by its recent flirtation with F1.
Also, isn't there some law in Italy that a new buyer of a company has to retain employment of its workers for a certain length of time, like two years, after purchase?
#7
Frank Booth
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:46
I would like to see gerhard gone and eddi jordan back in the saddle.
#8
fnz
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:50
Originally posted by Josta
Go team Irve the Swerve.
ld be great
#9
archstanton
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:00
yesssss, stoddy back as wingman for ron as they both go looking to give max a proper old-fashioned seeing-to.
#10
SuperDaan
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:01
Maybe Schumacher is interested 
#11
HP
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:20
Pro Drive wasn't prepared to design and build their own car. That is why they aren't running this year and because it seems that a constructor must design and build their own car. Why should they want to buy Toro Rosso? It's an entire different business model they'd be looking at. They have already factory, and as yiou said moving operation to England might not be possible in the short term.Originally posted by potmotr
You're right about that. But I wonder if Prodrive had its fingers burned by its recent flirtation with F1.
Also, isn't there some law in Italy that a new buyer of a company has to retain employment of its workers for a certain length of time, like two years, after purchase?
Dunno if Irvine would cut it. Having his comments again certainly would be entertaining , but there are very few teams that did well having an ex F1 racer at their helm.
Stoddart coming back? I can imagine certain folks will put many stumbling blocks in his way to prevent that from happening.
#12
Josta
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:23
Dunno if Irvine would cut it. Having his comments again certainly would be entertaining , but there are very few teams that did well having an ex F1 racer at their helm.
Eddie is also a rather astute businessman. He would also have the backing of a big Russian Vodka corporation.
#13
HP
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:26
Reading Dennis comments of late gave me the impression he will continue as team boss for this year only. He still will be involved somehow with McLaren, that's a given. Also since F1 is a small part of what the FiA is about, F1 will have a hard time to seeing Max off. It appears Max is lining up for yet another term. Not that I like it, but its not really surprising. The longer I follow his tenure, the more I get the uneasy feeling, he will quit his job only when they have to call in the undertaker for him :Originally posted by archstanton
yesssss, stoddy back as wingman for ron as they both go looking to give max a proper old-fashioned seeing-to.
#14
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:29
I think I read somewhere (Lapsworth, I think) that building their own F1 car would be possible in the long run for Prodrive but they needed to go into F1 being supplied. That would be a situation not unlike their WRC history. Anyways, it might be a bit late to start designing and build a new car for 2010. There's a lot of structure to be put into place for that to happen. And the big question is: who's gonna buy the team? What resources can they provide? Seems to me this can be a serious problem for F1 unless the Concorde agreement is renegotiated (which could mean that Mateschitz keeps the team. Putting the team up for sale might be a way to put pressure on the other teams).
Motormedia
Motormedia
#15
HP
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:31
Well I'm sure he'd cut it on the business side. But a team boss is more than just a business man. We know from Toyota, that having enough funds isn't enough. For some reason I can't see him every race weekend being there behind the pitwall running the team like Ron Dennis and others are doing.Originally posted by Josta
Eddie is also a rather astute businessman. He would also have the backing of a big Russian Vodka corporation.
#16
Josta
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:35
Originally posted by HP
Well I'm sure he'd cut it on the business side. But a team boss is more than just a business man. We know from Toyota, that having enough funds isn't enough. For some reason I can't see him every race weekend being there behind the pitwall running the team like Ron Dennis and others are doing.
Flavio Briatore was just a business man and he did well enough.
#17
Frank Booth
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:40
Leadership abilities really have nothing to do with what your particular background is IMO. My company seems to hire people for manager positions based solely on their educational background and they turn out to be shitty leaders.
#18
HP
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:45
They had 3 years (til 2010) to build their own car since they had been given the nod. Dunno how much more time they would need.Originally posted by Motormedia
I think I read somewhere (Lapsworth, I think) that building their own F1 car would be possible in the long run for Prodrive but they needed to go into F1 being supplied. That would be a situation not unlike their WRC history. Anyways, it might be a bit late to start designing and build a new car for 2010. There's a lot of structure to be put into place for that to happen. And the big question is: who's gonna buy the team? What resources can they provide? Seems to me this can be a serious problem for F1 unless the Concorde agreement is renegotiated (which could mean that Mateschitz keeps the team. Putting the team up for sale might be a way to put pressure on the other teams).
Motormedia
#19
HP
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:50
Fair point, just that Flavio was never a team owner and boss at the same time.Originally posted by Josta
Flavio Briatore was just a business man and he did well enough.
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#20
mclarensmps
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:50
Didn't Stoddart say in a not so recent interview that Mateschitz didn't want to own two teams but that he was pressured into taking over Minardi?
#21
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:51
Originally posted by HP
They had 3 years (til 2010) to build their own car since they had been given the nod. Dunno how much more time they would need.
The sale of Toro Rosso might not present something new to Richards anyways... Well, it was his name that first came to my mind as a viable buyer. I have a hard time seeing anybody with the resources needed to build their own car standing ready to buy Toro Rosso. My bet is that this will push the signatories of the Concorde agreement to the table again.
Motormedia
#22
rolf123
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:55
How much would it go for?
I wonder if it would be possible to have a fan owned team?
If a bunch of people pledge a certain amount.
In terms of organisation, it can be done and has been for a football club. Sure, much smaller fry but then again F1 has far greater reach...
I wonder if it would be possible to have a fan owned team?
If a bunch of people pledge a certain amount.
In terms of organisation, it can be done and has been for a football club. Sure, much smaller fry but then again F1 has far greater reach...
#23
Josta
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 12:59
Originally posted by rolf123
How much would it go for?
I wonder if it would be possible to have a fan owned team?
If a bunch of people pledge a certain amount.
In terms of organisation, it can be done and has been for a football club. Sure, much smaller fry but then again F1 has far greater reach...
Something like 20 million co owners all wanting their input. It would turn Torro Rosso into Toyota.
#24
dank
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:00
My money is on Roustam Tariko buying them and then going along the Force India route, creating a Russian team just in time for the Russian GP from 2010 onwards. Wasn't Bernie visiting Russia recently?
Not sure I like the idea of another nationality team entering F1 though, it'll turn into A1GP soon!
Not sure I like the idea of another nationality team entering F1 though, it'll turn into A1GP soon!
#25
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:01
Count backwards. There is a new car needed for 2010. It takes time to design and manufacture a new car, time to test is needed. All the infrastructure needs to be put into place before that, the organisation needs to be staffed... I don't think a sale will happen unless it's a big car manufacturer coming in.
Motormedia
Motormedia
#26
lustigson
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:21
Very interesting news, I have to say. I wonder which parties might be interested:
- Eddie Irvine + Roustam Tariko
- Tony Teixera (A1GP chairman)
- Minardi: would be nice to see the name back on the grid, although Paul Stoddart would come with it ;))
- Prodrive — Dave Richards could use '09 with customer Red Bull chassis' as a run up to becoming a constructor in '10
- Eddie Jordan — had entered for '08, but lost out to Prodrive
- BCN Competicion (Enrique Scalabroni) — entered for '08
- Carlin Motorsport (or is Trevor Carlin still involved with Jordan/Midland/Spyker/Force India?) — entered for '08
- Racing Engineering (Alfonso Orlean-Borbon) — had also entered for '08
- Direxiv, although that's probably put off entirely
#28
mclarensmps
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:31
Not sure I like the idea of another nationality team entering F1 though, it'll turn into A1GP soon!
......?!?!?!
What does that mean?
Why should the right to have an F1 team be limited to Europeans , Japanese and Americans?
#29
parkiw
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:36
Wouldn't purchasing Toro Rosso be a pretty difficult way for a new team to come into F1? After all, all the design staff and facilities will remain with Red Bull. Presumably the IP rights to the car would have to stay with Red Bull as well, unless RB start 2010 with a completely new car? It may be that a potential buyer would only actually purchase the entry slot, driver's contracts, and maybe some construction and workshop facilities.
And in an environment where a buyer would not be allowed to ride on the coattails of a bigger team and purchase a customer chassis... well, it'd have to be either a big name constructor or a non-F1 racing team with an established design team, wouldn't it?
And in an environment where a buyer would not be allowed to ride on the coattails of a bigger team and purchase a customer chassis... well, it'd have to be either a big name constructor or a non-F1 racing team with an established design team, wouldn't it?
#30
Kooper
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:41
Originally posted by Josta
Eddie is also a rather astute businessman. He would also have the backing of a big Russian Vodka corporation.
Kimi might be interested in being team leader ;)
#31
Shockabuku
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:42
Originally posted by Josta
Something like 20 million co owners all wanting their input. It would turn Torro Rosso into Toyota.
#32
Owen
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:44
Originally posted by parkiw
Wouldn't purchasing Toro Rosso be a pretty difficult way for a new team to come into F1? After all, all the design staff and facilities will remain with Red Bull. Presumably the IP rights to the car would have to stay with Red Bull as well, unless RB start 2010 with a completely new car? It may be that a potential buyer would only actually purchase the entry slot, driver's contracts, and maybe some construction and workshop facilities.
And in an environment where a buyer would not be allowed to ride on the coattails of a bigger team and purchase a customer chassis... well, it'd have to be either a big name constructor or a non-F1 racing team with an established design team, wouldn't it?
That was what I thought. The Design facilities, which is surely one of the most prized items, is run by an independent company, Red Bull technology (which will presumably just be devoted to RBR after the sale). So what are you really getting for your millions, other than the right to compete?
#33
tahadar
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:48
Originally posted by Josta
Something like 20 million co owners all wanting their input. It would turn Torro Rosso into Toyota.
hahaha!
#34
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:51
As I see it Toro Rosso is not worth much. As others have noted the design facility belongs to RB. From a source I have heard that there has been very little of investments into Toro Rossos facilities and that they don't do much more than bolt everything that's delivered together and go racing... So, there's the 48 million dollar bond and a garage for sale. The closer we get to 2010 the less the team is worth. The sale could drag on.
Motormedia
Motormedia
#35
djellison
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:52
Originally posted by The Big Guns
......?!?!?!
What does that mean?
Why should the right to have an F1 team be limited to Europeans , Japanese and Americans?
I don't think that was his point. McLaren isn't 'Force UK' and Renault isn't 'Go France', BMW's not 'Germany Goes Racing' and Honda isn't 'Power Japan'. The over nationalisation of a team (like 'Force India') is probably inappropraite in F1 - another such team ( outwardly identifiable by its nationality ) isn't really what F1's about.
Doug
#36
Frank Booth
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 13:56
Originally posted by The Big Guns
......?!?!?!
What does that mean?
Why should the right to have an F1 team be limited to Europeans , Japanese and Americans?
Americans? F1? Where?
#37
noikeee
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:00
Originally posted by potmotr
Will this mean he sells Vettel's contract early for the maximum amount?
I get the idea Vettel won't take long to be promoted to take Coulthard's place.
Tony Teixeira with his own privateer team could be an interesting idea, I'd like that.
#38
mclarensmps
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:12
I can understand that, I guess, but I also understand that it would be a matter of great pride for a third world, or emerging market country to have a team in what is regarded as the pinnacle of motorsport.
That said, I do find the name Super Aguri, and Force India F1 cheesy.
There are different ways of handling it: Spyker F1 never heralded itself as the first Dutch F1 team, neither did Midland F1 as the first Russian F1 endeavour.
I guess it is a matter of understanding and accepting various cultures and the way they perceive "our" sport.
I am sure that the next Indian F1 team (if it ever happens) to enter the market will keep it business as usual, and have their system be a more corporate and industrial affair.
That said, I do find the name Super Aguri, and Force India F1 cheesy.
There are different ways of handling it: Spyker F1 never heralded itself as the first Dutch F1 team, neither did Midland F1 as the first Russian F1 endeavour.
I guess it is a matter of understanding and accepting various cultures and the way they perceive "our" sport.
I am sure that the next Indian F1 team (if it ever happens) to enter the market will keep it business as usual, and have their system be a more corporate and industrial affair.
#39
Apex
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:19
I think the role of test drinker would suit him perfectly.Originally posted by Kooper
Kimi might be interested in being team leader ;)
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#40
Ivanoff
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:20
[*] Michael Schumacher & Willi WebberOriginally posted by lustigson
Very interesting news, I have to say. I wonder which parties might be interested:
- Eddie Irvine + Roustam Tariko
- Tony Teixera (A1GP chairman)
- Minardi: would be nice to see the name back on the grid, although Paul Stoddart would come with it ;))
- Prodrive — Dave Richards could use '09 with customer Red Bull chassis' as a run up to becoming a constructor in '10
- Eddie Jordan — had entered for '08, but lost out to Prodrive
- BCN Competicion (Enrique Scalabroni) — entered for '08
- Carlin Motorsport (or is Trevor Carlin still involved with Jordan/Midland/Spyker/Force India?) — entered for '08
- Racing Engineering (Alfonso Orlean-Borbon) — had also entered for '08
- Direxiv, although that's probably put off entirely
#41
noikeee
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:26
Wasn't Adrian Campos interested in moving in from GP2 to F1 at some point too?
#42
Jackman
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:37
I guess ART can reopen their negotiations with Gerhard then. I wonder if papa Todt will help out Todt jr if he gets it?
#43
Jackman
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 14:38
He co-owned Ligier and Minardi at various times while running Benetton.Originally posted by HP
Fair point, just that Flavio was never a team owner and boss at the same time.
#44
AFCA
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 15:50
After a 15 year long driving carreer in Formula 1, becoming teamboss of Toro Rosso (after having rejected to become Ferrari's teamboss) is absolutely the last thing Schumacher would want to do.
#45
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 15:55
If I'm not mistaken there is a slot up for grabs in F1 already (how else would Prodrive would have entered?), so Toro Rosso can't be worth much more than the 48 million dollar bond, maybe even less...
Motormedia
Motormedia
#46
Frank Booth
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 16:22
Could we get down to a 9-10 team grid by 2010?
#47
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 16:34
Originally posted by Frank Booth
Could we get down to a 9-10 team grid by 2010?
I think that's the issue that will bring the parties to the table. The Concorde agreement needs to be renegotiated. There's a huge step for anybody to get into F1 if they have to build their own car. According to FIA sporting regulations there is a slot available right now. If someone was so keen into getting into F1 building their own car there is a possibility to do so without buying into Toro Rosso. If you ask me, I can't see that many who are standing in line. Anyways, this fact renders Toro Rosso almost worthless.
Motormedia
#48
Sakae
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 16:39
I am not sure why is everyone so suprised that Red Bull guy will run a few marketing games, and move on? He is neither part of true-blue privateer club, nor manufacture's community.
#49
Jardins
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 16:48
Originally posted by potmotr
Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz has put Toro Rosso up for sale. Wants a new buyer by the end of next season. Did he ever need two teams in Formula One? Will this mean he sells Vettel's contract early for the maximum amount?
Weren't there rumours at the time Red Bull bought the team that it was arranged to prevent someone else (either Eddie Jordan or Eddie Irvine going on bad memory) from perchasing the team. I think Paul Stoddart hinted that the deal was brokered by Bernie or Max as a pre-emptive move.
#50
Motormedia
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Posted 18 March 2008 - 16:48
Hm, someone pointed out to me that Toro Rosso might never have paid the bond... They just took over Minardis slot. Where does that leave us?
Motormedia
Motormedia
