Now that we know the Brawn is really fast (possibly fast enough for victories)
do you think Honda was right to pull out of the sport after having created such a competitive car?
It only served to emphasise how disaster they were IMO
I guess this would be continuously discussed throughout the season.
What do you guys think about Honda now?
Started by
gaheir
, Mar 14 2009 10:38
56 replies to this topic
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#2
kar
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:41
Originally posted by gaheir
Now that we know the Brawn is really fast (possibly fast enough for victories)
do you think Honda was right to pull out of the sport after having created such a competitive car?
It only served to emphasise how disaster they were IMO
I guess this would be continuously discussed throughout the season.
What do I think of 'Honda' now?
I think they just confirmed they are dumbasses, because just at the moment they finally have a rocketship car to justify the practically billion dollar investment they've made in F1, they throw in the towel and quit.
#3
nc6
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:43
Its an interesting topic, obviously we need to see how the season progresses before we can make comments.
Also dont forget the Merc engine, that has also pushed them forward im sure
Honda would have known all the performance figures on the new car - but it still wouldn't help them over come their financial problems.
Also dont forget the Merc engine, that has also pushed them forward im sure
Honda would have known all the performance figures on the new car - but it still wouldn't help them over come their financial problems.
#4
BuzzingHornet
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:44
I'm glad they've gone and left a really quick privateer team behind, with 2 of my favourite drivers driving
#5
RedBaron
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:44
Maybe they should have stayed. Wouldn't have a Mercedes engine in the back of that car then though.
#6
wingwalker
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:47
Well, I'm holding my judgement of BGP 'till Melbeourne. But it doesn't change my opinion of Honda: they screwed up royally. It was damn clear RA108 was a dog so they rightfully switched development for (the car that is not called)RA109. Having Ross Brawn in the team would certainly help, too. And what they do? Suddenly ithdraw in a totally jerk-off manner.
#7
Slowinfastout
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:49
Originally posted by kar
What do I think of 'Honda' now?
I think they just confirmed they are dumbasses, because just at the moment they finally have a rocketship car to justify the practically billion dollar investment they've made in F1, they throw in the towel and quit.
Yeah... but F1 can't expect big carmakers to take a year off while still racing their cars at the wrong end of the pack as they are developping their race-winning package only to be screwed by the nost horrible economic downturn in a century all the time..
It's an exception basically... it's the same team without the loud shaky underpowered engine..
#8
Burai
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:54
Honda pulled out for monetary reasons at a time where it has to justify to it's employees and investors why they need to spend upwards of $100million a year on racing cars when they've got cars gathering dust and rust in yards and manufacturing plants being shut down.
No amount of success can justify to trade unions why they are sending home factory workers whilst Jenson Button collects £5million.
Honda are likely just the tip of the iceberg as far as manufacturer pull-outs go. The fact that the Renault team applied for Max's cheap Cosworths for 2010 speaks volumes about the situation facing manufacturer spending in F1.
No amount of success can justify to trade unions why they are sending home factory workers whilst Jenson Button collects £5million.
Honda are likely just the tip of the iceberg as far as manufacturer pull-outs go. The fact that the Renault team applied for Max's cheap Cosworths for 2010 speaks volumes about the situation facing manufacturer spending in F1.
#9
Tenmantaylor
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 10:59
They will look like real idiots when the world sees how good the car is at Melbourne. They couldnt make a quick car when they were fully in charge and they didnt know how good the new car was when they quit. When they set the Brawn ball rolling for 09 they should have at least committed to one more season.
#10
Timstr11
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:12
Agree.Originally posted by Burai
Honda pulled out for monetary reasons at a time where it has to justify to it's employees and investors why they need to spend upwards of $100million a year on racing cars when they've got cars gathering dust and rust in yards and manufacturing plants being shut down.
No amount of success can justify to trade unions why they are sending home factory workers whilst Jenson Button collects £5million.
Honda are likely just the tip of the iceberg as far as manufacturer pull-outs go. The fact that the Renault team applied for Max's cheap Cosworths for 2010 speaks volumes about the situation facing manufacturer spending in F1.
They would not have pulled out if there was no crisis.
Unlike other teams, they had to carry most of the financial burden of their F1 franchise due to lack of sponsorship income.
That's where it went horribly wrong.
After BAT withdrew, Fukui accepted this sponsorless-car business model presented to him, while he should have tasked the F1 team and/or his corporate Marketing department to concentrate on the conventional model of sponsors displayed on the car for a healthy fee.
After BAT sold the team, they had to learn the art of courting sponsors, which they never did. It always amazed me that a blue chip company like Honda was not able to get other corporations to commit as sponsors. But then if you look at the Honda Corporation as a whole, they were never strong in marketing. It may have something to do with that they have an engineering led culture in that company. It's always been engineers who become CEO of the company, and in general engineers are not too interested in marketing.
#11
HoldenRT
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:27
There might be some Seppuku in the Honda boardrooms if BrawnGP match the pace in Melbourne, that they had in Barcelona. :
#12
BuzzingHornet
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:32
Originally posted by HoldenRT
There might be some Seppuku in the Honda boardrooms if BrawnGP match the pace in Melbourne, that they had in Barcelona. :
Or worse, wins the Japanese GP
#13
ForeverF1
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:48
Originally posted by BuzzingHornet
Or worse, wins the Japanese GP
I like it.
#14
se7en_24
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:50
They weren't stupid to pull out, but their timing was. A final year with a fantastic car would have saved them face and helped the team secure their employee's future under new ownership. A final crap year would have made everyone think that Honda were right and who would have really moaned about them closing.
Wasting the whole of 2008 on a new car and then pulling out before the 2009 car does really well without any Honda exposure = priceless.) You do have to wonder how certain people get into jobs with such responsibility and then make a complete arse of it. Honda are now funding the team anyway, numpties.
Wasting the whole of 2008 on a new car and then pulling out before the 2009 car does really well without any Honda exposure = priceless.
) You do have to wonder how certain people get into jobs with such responsibility and then make a complete arse of it. Honda are now funding the team anyway, numpties.
#15
Phucaigh
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:55
They pulled out as they wanted nothing to do with racing illegal cars after the last time and the two race ban..... 
#16
potmotr
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:01
Originally posted by kar
What do I think of 'Honda' now?
I think they just confirmed they are dumbasses, because just at the moment they finally have a rocketship car to justify the practically billion dollar investment they've made in F1, they throw in the towel and quit.
Harsh but so true!
#17
NineOneSeven
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:04
I also feel that Honda have handled all this so badly, the withdraw was a shock! However I am glad they didn't just just down tools and walk away. I'm very happy that another team has stepped up in the form of BGP and Honda facilitated that.
The thing that must kill them is that they spent so much on F1 and that's all down the drain now... and to top it off Brawn F1 are topping the timesheets with another manufacturers ENGINE!!! Now that is messed up.
What a dumb ass thing to happen. Honda should have used their engine for this year at the very least and if it went well could have made a case for the future.
Someone somewhere on the Honda board is feeling sick. Rightly so.
The thing that must kill them is that they spent so much on F1 and that's all down the drain now... and to top it off Brawn F1 are topping the timesheets with another manufacturers ENGINE!!! Now that is messed up.
What a dumb ass thing to happen. Honda should have used their engine for this year at the very least and if it went well could have made a case for the future.
Someone somewhere on the Honda board is feeling sick. Rightly so.
#18
wrighty
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:12
Originally posted by RedBaron
Maybe they should have stayed. Wouldn't have a Mercedes engine in the back of that car then though.
that, Sir, is the nail on the head
Had Honda stayed in, the car would not be as fast as we've seen, that's almost a certainty. As it was, the pressure they faced financially meant they had no choice i'm sure....HRC (the bike side) is far more successful for far, far less money.....it's just circumstance but thankfully GP racing as a whole, and Messrs Brawn, Button and Barrichello all (hopefully) benefit from this. It's turned from a near-tragedy (not as such but you know what i mean) to a near-fairytale and i hope it continues
#19
Madras
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:19
Not sure I agree with that. If Honda had decided to stay I believe they would have been allowed to improve their engine like Renault was allowed to.
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#20
Seanspeed
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:21
I'm sure they would have been allowed to bring their engine up to par, just like Renault was allowed to.Originally posted by wrighty
that, Sir, is the nail on the head
And I dont think Honda are stupid for pulling out. There was no way that they could have known that the car would have been *this* fast compared to the opposition. It makes them look stupid in hindsight, but there's been lots of things I'd have done differently had I known the future, ya know?
#21
Madras
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:23
Originally posted by TheHumanPromise
I'm sure they would have been allowed to bring their engine up to par, just like Renault was allowed to.
And I dont think Honda are stupid for pulling out. There was no way that they could have known that the car would have been *this* fast compared to the opposition. It makes them look stupid in hindsight, but there's been lots of things I'd have done differently had I known the future, ya know?
Exactly. they made a decision based on what they knew at the time. Obviously they were feeling the strain and would not have made that decision in a different economic climate.
#22
Timstr11
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:44
I'm sure Honda had an upgraded engine ready on the dyno.
Together with Renault they would have been formally announced by the FIA as eligible for the upgrade.
On 5 December it all changed.
Together with Renault they would have been formally announced by the FIA as eligible for the upgrade.
On 5 December it all changed.
#23
slideways
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 12:51
Two years spent on useless 'Earth Dreams' and then they give the team away for free when they finally develop a competitive package.
Inept through and through.
Inept through and through.
#24
Matt Somers
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 13:00
If only we all the had the option of seeing how things are going to be..... At the end of the day Honda withdrew for their reasons whether that be money or otherwise. The mercedes engine it seems is a great fit for the BGP001 and so is likely to make it competitive. What you can't take away from Honda though is the design of the chassis, Merc engine or not without the technical aspects involved in the aero it would still be a slow old dog ;) This is where previous years Honda were not on the ball and simply expected a high powered engine to make the compromised design of the chassis pull them through. Honda Racing F1/Brawn GP are the real champions of the rules change as they have used their time to basically rebuild a car from the ground up. Others are trying to draw on past years of experience and its seems some are falling wide of the mark......
#25
pippin
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 13:15
Well I am really really disappointed that Honda allowed Ross and the whole team to sacrifice any development at all on their 2008 car for the good of the 2009 package and then to split. All that work could have been for nothing. Surely there was some way to continue (albeit on a reduced budget). Yes their financial backing has enabled Brawn GP to even exist but its going to be really tough for that team in the long run. On the positive side I'm really impressed with all the help and support Brawn GP got from other F1 teams.
#26
Apollonius
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 13:31
The share holders have to be appeased. With massive losses, do you think a share holder gives a hoot about who is winning what in F1 when he sees his shares becoming worthless when at the same time millions is being pumped in to a sport he probably doesn't care about?
Honda had to cut their losses, wins on the horizons or not it was too late. Whilst they could predict they would build a good car they could not predict how their rivals would perform so to make any win predictions counted for nothing and wouldn't convince the money men. For how many seasons must Honda F1 had said to the accountants "this year, this year we'll do it!" - why would anybody at Honda HQ believe them this time?
The thing is, Brawn GP may not win anything yet, we'll have to wait awhile before we can truly see the egg on Honda's corporate face....
Honda had to cut their losses, wins on the horizons or not it was too late. Whilst they could predict they would build a good car they could not predict how their rivals would perform so to make any win predictions counted for nothing and wouldn't convince the money men. For how many seasons must Honda F1 had said to the accountants "this year, this year we'll do it!" - why would anybody at Honda HQ believe them this time?
The thing is, Brawn GP may not win anything yet, we'll have to wait awhile before we can truly see the egg on Honda's corporate face....
#27
Bloggsworth
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 13:32
Stupid - But then big corporations were never known for their lightness of touch. You can never get bean counters to understand that occasionally a real person can actually make decisions better than a computer, whatever the results of your CFD program. I have no doubt that Honda's computer also told them that their engine had plenty of power...............
#28
Ural
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 13:38
Ferrari (and La Selección and A Seleção) are my favourite 
. On the other hand I would love to see Jenson to take some wins with BGP F1 team. He's still an excellent driver !
. On the other hand I would love to see Jenson to take some wins with BGP F1 team. He's still an excellent driver !
#29
Option1
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 15:47
Cheating, lying, spying, mongrel sons-of-female-dogs, a disgrace to the sp.... oh hang on, I thought this was a thread about Ferrari or McLaren or Dave Richards or Michael.
Sorry 'bout that.
Carry on.
Neil
Sorry 'bout that.
Carry on.
Neil
#30
Madras
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 15:50
Originally posted by Matt Somers
This is where previous years Honda were not on the ball and simply expected a high powered engine to make the compromised design of the chassis pull them through.
Cant agree with that at all. They were trying to design a top chassis and failed, twice. They did not "expect" a high powered engine to pull them through.
#31
Matt Somers
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 15:54
Ok worded incorrectly, the way I meant it, was they had flawed chassis designs and at that stage once in competition it's impossible to turn back. Adding winglets here and there was their only ammo to a flawed concept. Much the same as some of the teams will face this season.
#32
PassWind
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 16:01
If Honda wanted to be truly innovative and rejuvenate the parent company the executives could have taken a pay cut and pumped that money into the F1 team, ran sponsored by Honda executives on the car shown the world a nil cost method real of still running a F1 team as I am sure there is still over 100 million on pay packets going to the few. They would've had a fast car maintained their image, if the thing was still as fast as it is now win some races raise their profile win races Sunday, sell cars on Monday and everything would be happy days.
Maybe rode the KERS bandwagon with their upcoming series of Hybrid hence loosely keeping the green image as well, normal punters wouldn't know the difference. As the economy recovers one of the mainstream car makers will have to find a way to get a leg up, Toyota are probably best positioned to take advantage at the moment.
Maybe rode the KERS bandwagon with their upcoming series of Hybrid hence loosely keeping the green image as well, normal punters wouldn't know the difference. As the economy recovers one of the mainstream car makers will have to find a way to get a leg up, Toyota are probably best positioned to take advantage at the moment.
#33
gaheir
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 18:16
Originally posted by pippin
Well I am really really disappointed that Honda allowed Ross and the whole team to sacrifice any development at all on their 2008 car for the good of the 2009 package and then to split. All that work could have been for nothing. Surely there was some way to continue (albeit on a reduced budget). Yes their financial backing has enabled Brawn GP to even exist but its going to be really tough for that team in the long run. On the positive side I'm really impressed with all the help and support Brawn GP got from other F1 teams.
I doubt they now support BGP as much as they did before the test began
#34
ForeverF1
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 18:18
Originally posted by gaheir
I doubt they now support BGP as much as they did before the test began
#35
pspidey
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 18:36
We of course don't yet know if their pace is real. But *if* it is, I think one big question is:
Would Honda have been able to get a buyer if they had run the car in tests earlier and proved it's pace?
As it is, they made a deal with Brawn before anyone knew how good the car would be, and how valuable it might be. Brawn himself of course might have had some inkling but for sure no one outside the team (at the time) would have thought that the car would be fast, and therefore potentially very valuable.
Imagine if they had actually run it earlier - you could have had a bidding war, that might even have include Mclaren -- 'bugger this, our car's **** - let's buy the Honda'!!!!
If I was in charge of the Honda negotiations, that's what I'd really be kicking myself about. Not, the decision to leave F1 - which they pretty much had to do for financial reasons.
As it is, it makes them look real dumb for not funding some test earlier -they could potentially have gotten a lot more money in return for the team. They 'sold' it for practically nothing. In fact, if I remember correctly they're still going to be providing 'financial support' to Brawn for this year.
Eeek!
Would Honda have been able to get a buyer if they had run the car in tests earlier and proved it's pace?
As it is, they made a deal with Brawn before anyone knew how good the car would be, and how valuable it might be. Brawn himself of course might have had some inkling but for sure no one outside the team (at the time) would have thought that the car would be fast, and therefore potentially very valuable.
Imagine if they had actually run it earlier - you could have had a bidding war, that might even have include Mclaren -- 'bugger this, our car's **** - let's buy the Honda'!!!!
If I was in charge of the Honda negotiations, that's what I'd really be kicking myself about. Not, the decision to leave F1 - which they pretty much had to do for financial reasons.
As it is, it makes them look real dumb for not funding some test earlier -they could potentially have gotten a lot more money in return for the team. They 'sold' it for practically nothing. In fact, if I remember correctly they're still going to be providing 'financial support' to Brawn for this year.
Eeek!
#36
Welsh
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 19:09
I think it was an impossible dream.
#37
stevewf1
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 19:31
I think they did the right thing - for the company - at the time. It wouldn't make much sense for the company to develop a fast F1 car only to perhaps put the business itself in jeopardy. (If) the economy improves, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Honda buyout of Brawn and let the existing team remain only re-badged (again) as Honda.
And after all, Toyota very nearly did the same thing.
And after all, Toyota very nearly did the same thing.
#38
Floyd
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 20:08
As their adverts once said 'what if'. What if 1 day they may learn not to suddenly run and leave teams up a creak without a paddle.
#39
jlp356
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Posted 14 March 2009 - 20:36
In December of last year, Honda panicked. It was spooked by the economic crisis, as we all were and are, but the cost of an F1 team is a rather small portion, I would think, of Honda's world-wide advertising and promotional budget. And if the deal with Ross Brawn & co. had not been struck, the close-down and redundancy costs would have been steep.
To Toyota's credit, they didn't follow suit. Even before the "Great Recession," I thought that they were a more likely canditate to exit F1 after throwing so much cubic money at the sport, with consistently disappointing results.
If the testing form of Brawn GP carries over to actual racing results, Honda will be seriously embarrassed.
And don't sell the improvement of the MBZ engine short. Rubens has been quoted as praising the "drivability" of the new engine, without mentioning the former Honda powerplant.
If Brawn GP indeed posts some impressive race results, sponsors will appear, even in this economic climate. Don't forget the appeal of the underdog. In any event, they already have a strong sponsor -- Honda -- which cannot allow its name and logo to appear on a Mercedes-engined racecar.
I now have a new favorite race team. Jason B is a worthy talent who has made some poor choices in teams, but Rubens B is my sentimental favorite.
To Toyota's credit, they didn't follow suit. Even before the "Great Recession," I thought that they were a more likely canditate to exit F1 after throwing so much cubic money at the sport, with consistently disappointing results.
If the testing form of Brawn GP carries over to actual racing results, Honda will be seriously embarrassed.
And don't sell the improvement of the MBZ engine short. Rubens has been quoted as praising the "drivability" of the new engine, without mentioning the former Honda powerplant.
If Brawn GP indeed posts some impressive race results, sponsors will appear, even in this economic climate. Don't forget the appeal of the underdog. In any event, they already have a strong sponsor -- Honda -- which cannot allow its name and logo to appear on a Mercedes-engined racecar.
I now have a new favorite race team. Jason B is a worthy talent who has made some poor choices in teams, but Rubens B is my sentimental favorite.
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#40
gaheir
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 14:52
Originally posted by stevewf1
I think they did the right thing - for the company - at the time. It wouldn't make much sense for the company to develop a fast F1 car only to perhaps put the business itself in jeopardy. (If) the economy improves, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Honda buyout of Brawn and let the existing team remain only re-badged (again) as Honda.
And after all, Toyota very nearly did the same thing.
I don't think Honda would come back too soon...especially after the way they pulled.
Besides one of the reasons for the withdraw was that they want to invest more in the environment friendly area and be the leader in the field.
The current F1 will never help them achieve the goal technologically and financially.
So when Honda come back depends on how much F1 could embrace the concept of "Earth Dreams"... I guess!
#41
saintclaire
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 14:59
Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
They will look like real idiots when the world sees how good the car is at Melbourne. They couldnt make a quick car when they were fully in charge and they didnt know how good the new car was when they quit. When they set the Brawn ball rolling for 09 they should have at least committed to one more season.
Possibly, but how do we know that the Honda engine would've been as good as the Mercedes. What if Honda had stayed and it turned out that the car is as good as it is, but let down by a week engine.
#42
pedrovski
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 15:17
Originally posted by kar
What do I think of 'Honda' now?
I think they just confirmed they are dumbasses, because just at the moment they finally have a rocketship car to justify the practically billion dollar investment they've made in F1, they throw in the towel and quit.
#43
black magic
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 20:03
well its mixed bag.
either to save face or to help team I suspect they have largely funded the so called brawn car.
yes ross has helped but his "stake" is likely to be the remains of his multi million dollar contract that may or may not ahve been paid out by honda. ie he has not actually put in money (rather not taken it out)
shame they have built so called rocket ship or is it a little too good to be true. certainly other teams seem impressed which suggests the times are real.
either to save face or to help team I suspect they have largely funded the so called brawn car.
yes ross has helped but his "stake" is likely to be the remains of his multi million dollar contract that may or may not ahve been paid out by honda. ie he has not actually put in money (rather not taken it out)
shame they have built so called rocket ship or is it a little too good to be true. certainly other teams seem impressed which suggests the times are real.
#44
Tenmantaylor
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 21:22
Originally posted by saintclaire
Possibly, but how do we know that the Honda engine would've been as good as the Mercedes. What if Honda had stayed and it turned out that the car is as good as it is, but let down by a week engine.
Considering the pace of the McLaren with the amazing Mercedes engine I doubt the Honda would have slowed them much...
#45
Slowinfastout
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 21:33
Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Considering the pace of the McLaren with the amazing Mercedes engine I doubt the Honda would have slowed them much...
I dunno about that, there's all sorts of stories about the Honda being down on power but also about excessive vibrations and whatnot.. Personally I think the design that was 'frozen' in 2006 is a pile of rubbish..
Anyone who heard it in person also knows how different it sounded and how ridiculously loud it was..
Possibly the Honda engine situation was hopeless.. it certainly isn't impossible..
#46
jlp356
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 22:21
I agree that the Honda engine is not the equal of the Merc.
Rubens has been quoted as praising the "driveabilaty" of the new engine over his former one.
Rubens has been quoted as praising the "driveabilaty" of the new engine over his former one.
#47
noikeee
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Posted 15 March 2009 - 23:02
I wonder if they want to buy the team back.
#48
saintclaire
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Posted 16 March 2009 - 21:12
Originally posted by Slowinfastout
I dunno about that, there's all sorts of stories about the Honda being down on power but also about excessive vibrations and whatnot.. Personally I think the design that was 'frozen' in 2006 is a pile of rubbish..
Anyone who heard it in person also knows how different it sounded and how ridiculously loud it was..
Possibly the Honda engine situation was hopeless.. it certainly isn't impossible..
I can testify to that loudness, my wife , who attended her first F1 race at Indy 2007, commented how loud the Honda was compared to the rest of the field.
#49
gaheir
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Posted 28 March 2009 - 10:03
Well, it looks like that Honda most likely threw away the chance to become the WC for 2009.
Massa said they will win the title by June lol
Massa said they will win the title by June lol
#50
Tomerell
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Member
Posted 28 March 2009 - 10:58
I would like to be a fly on the roof in next Honda board meeting. They must be VERY happy when the team they left behind is dominating the feald with Mercedes engines in a car they have paid for...
