Article in the Sunday Times magazine today suggesting that 'Williams' survived the war and acted as a secret agent but died in 1983 (ironically being knocked off his bike by German tourists). The article will presumably be on the Sunday Times website (www.sunday-times.co.uk) but for some reason their server is down.
Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone know anything more? If the story is true, it would be bizarre, but stranger things have happened.
W. G. Williams 1903-1983...?
Started by
ensign14
, Dec 16 2001 11:56
33 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 16 December 2001 - 12:12
Beaten to it by a whisker!! 
Welcome to TNF, BTW, Ensign 14.
I haven't had time to go through the whole article yet, just skimmed it, but it seems well-researched at first glance. I suppose it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he could have assumed a new identity while some poor unfortunate was executed in his place at Sachsenhausen - as the article points out, there were some very strange bedfellows in the espionage game in early 1945.
Welcome to TNF, BTW, Ensign 14. I haven't had time to go through the whole article yet, just skimmed it, but it seems well-researched at first glance. I suppose it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he could have assumed a new identity while some poor unfortunate was executed in his place at Sachsenhausen - as the article points out, there were some very strange bedfellows in the espionage game in early 1945.
#3
Richard Jenkins
-
- 7,215 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 16 December 2001 - 12:41
I haven't yet looked at the article, I'm about to, but it wouldn't be the first time we've had a secret agent infilitrate motor racing.
Robert O'Brien, a decent sportscar racer & who raced in the Belgian GP of '53 (?), haven't got my information on hand was a CIA agent who used motor racing as a cover to enable him to spy in Europe.
By attending events, he not only got extra funding for his missions but was able to go from country to country without any hullabaloo & often raced against East Germans, which presumably allowed him a wonderful chance to do whatever it is spies do. I think, it was something to do with searching for former Nazis but I could be wrong. Robert O'Brien, of course, is an alias. His real name may never be known, or certainly not for some time, when the CIA decide to publish the details long after everyone involved has died.
Robert O'Brien, a decent sportscar racer & who raced in the Belgian GP of '53 (?), haven't got my information on hand was a CIA agent who used motor racing as a cover to enable him to spy in Europe.
By attending events, he not only got extra funding for his missions but was able to go from country to country without any hullabaloo & often raced against East Germans, which presumably allowed him a wonderful chance to do whatever it is spies do. I think, it was something to do with searching for former Nazis but I could be wrong. Robert O'Brien, of course, is an alias. His real name may never be known, or certainly not for some time, when the CIA decide to publish the details long after everyone involved has died.
#4
rtcoman
-
- 164 posts
- Joined: March 01
Member
Posted 16 December 2001 - 19:10
Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Robert O'Brien, a decent sportscar racer & who raced in the Belgian GP of '53 (?), haven't got my information on hand was a CIA agent who used motor racing as a cover to enable him to spy in Europe.
That was 1952. He was classified 14th.
Source: www.forix.com
Robert O'Brien, a decent sportscar racer & who raced in the Belgian GP of '53 (?), haven't got my information on hand was a CIA agent who used motor racing as a cover to enable him to spy in Europe.
That was 1952. He was classified 14th.
Source: www.forix.com
#5
William Hunt
-
- 11,079 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 17 December 2001 - 03:41
Are U sure about this ? I always believed that William 'Grover' Williams was executed in the war.
#6
David McKinney
-
- 14,156 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 17 December 2001 - 09:01
That's the point, William. We all thought that. But the Sunday Times article has found evidence which suggests his execution was faked to enable him to continue spying for the British in Germany after the war, and that he later returned to France under an assumed name, and died there in 1983.Originally posted by William Hunt
Are U sure about this ? I always believed that William 'Grover' Williams was executed in the war.
#7
William Hunt
-
- 11,079 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 17 December 2001 - 10:49
Yes, I understood that. But still, there are still lunatics out there who claim that Elvis is still alive so I find it hard to believe that a person who was as famous as William Grover could have done this unnoticed.
#8
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 17 December 2001 - 13:57
It would have been perfectly possible - we live today in a world where we are bombarded by images at every turn. Williams's face would not have been well-known, even to Grand Prix fans, in the the 1930s and 1940s, since contemporary press reports seldom, if ever, showed really clear images of the drivers. By the time the man alleged to have been Williams appeared in rural France, it was eighteen years since his most famous win and (if it was him) he had been highly trained in covert espionage techniques by the masterful experts of SOE, spent years undercover in occupied France before being betrayed by another person, and then spent time in a concentration camp - that would change anyone's appearance anyway. And a vital part of SOE training was using disguise to blend in to French life ....
#9
William Hunt
-
- 11,079 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 17 December 2001 - 14:07
But why didn't he step out of his disguise, that doesn't make sense. I don't believe a word of it.
By the way, has anyone got a good picture of William Grover 'Williams' ? (Who knows, mayube there are some people on the forum who might recognise him
)
By the way, has anyone got a good picture of William Grover 'Williams' ? (Who knows, mayube there are some people on the forum who might recognise him
)
#10
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 17 December 2001 - 14:19
Originally posted by William Hunt
But why didn't he step out of his disguise, that doesn't make sense. I don't believe a word of it.
The theory is that he joined MI6, the British Intelligence Service, after the war - being officially dead as Williams would save a new identity from excessive scrutiny by enemies, even if he was recognised. As an associate of the much more famous and flamboyant Robert Benoist, his death would have become accepted fact very quickly and he would have slipped from memory. Other major figures in the story, like Ettore Bugatti and Jean-Pierre Wimille, were dead by 1949, but once he had assumed his new identity Williams could not have reverted to his real name for fear of compromising continuing security and espionage operations.
There is a very good picture of him on the front of the magazine - I have a couple of spare copies: if you would like one, PM me with your snail mail and I'll post it to you
#11
anjakub
-
- 612 posts
- Joined: October 01
Member
Posted 17 December 2001 - 18:26
William "Grover" Williams, Robert O'Brien and...
In polish auto racing in early 80’s was a CIA agent. This was Jacek Jurzak, an aviation engineer, racing driver and designer. He built the Formula Easter car (first monocoque construction in Poland), named from his initials – JJ-01.
Jurzak was a member of polish national team in "Cup of Peace and Friendship" in 1982 (20th in individual classification). Arrested in 1983, sentenced 25 years’ imprisonment in 1984, but... next year changed in West Berlin for polish spy Marian Zacharski.
In polish auto racing in early 80’s was a CIA agent. This was Jacek Jurzak, an aviation engineer, racing driver and designer. He built the Formula Easter car (first monocoque construction in Poland), named from his initials – JJ-01.
Jurzak was a member of polish national team in "Cup of Peace and Friendship" in 1982 (20th in individual classification). Arrested in 1983, sentenced 25 years’ imprisonment in 1984, but... next year changed in West Berlin for polish spy Marian Zacharski.
#13
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 19 December 2001 - 00:07
I still have two spare copies of the Sunday Times magazine containing this article - the first two members who PM me with their snail mail addresses can have them for free (anywhere in the world!). Merry Christmas!!!
EDIT - only one left ....
EDIT - only one left ....
#14
Gary Davies
-
- 6,460 posts
- Joined: April 01
Member
Posted 19 December 2001 - 14:29
Originally posted by Vitesse2
There is a very good picture of him on the front of the magazine ...
At risk of presuming on his munificence, might Vitesse be persuaded to make with the scanner?
The web version was pictureless.
Vanwall.
#15
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 19 December 2001 - 14:36
Sorry - a little beyond my expertise yet!! I'll try to scan a copy to you by e-mail though ... sometime tomorrow (Thursday - it's still Wednesday here!!)
Both spare copies of the mag have now been claimed ...
Both spare copies of the mag have now been claimed ...
#16
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 20 December 2001 - 14:36
I've managed to get hold of another six copies of the magazine - two are already spoken for (you know who you are, guys!), so I have four spares - same offer as before!!
So far, I've sent one each to Belgium, France and the US, with two on the way to Oz - anyone else?
So far, I've sent one each to Belgium, France and the US, with two on the way to Oz - anyone else?
#17
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 20 December 2001 - 22:32
Three left - get 'em while they're hot!!
#18
fines
-
- 9,647 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 01 January 2002 - 22:19
Having received the magazine, courtesy of Richard, and read through the article I must say that this all smacks of yellow press to me. Anyway, it's based on a novel, so we should be a bit careful with what we belief! This is not HISTORY, merely a STORY...
#19
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 01 January 2002 - 23:32
Originally posted by fines
Having received the magazine, courtesy of Richard, and read through the article I must say that this all smacks of yellow press to me. Anyway, it's based on a novel, so we should be a bit careful with what we belief! This is not HISTORY, merely a STORY...
Michael, I'm not sure this
http://images.hodder...e=1&size=bigweb
actually has anything to do with Williams - I think they may just be plugging Ryan's new novel and screenplay. Unfortunately the website has no details of the book yet.
Advertisement
#20
ry6
-
- 525 posts
- Joined: October 00
Member
Posted 02 January 2002 - 08:00
For how long do "war secrets" remain secret?
James Leasor, that excellent author of the books like "Never Had a spanner on her", "They don't make them like that anymore", plus the Jason Love series and a number of historical "faction"
novels has apparently had access to secret war files after a time of say 25 years expired.
He wrote "Green Beach" and "The Unknown Soldier" from these records I believe.
The point I am making is that if this is the case then surely someone can access information on "Williams"?
James Leasor, that excellent author of the books like "Never Had a spanner on her", "They don't make them like that anymore", plus the Jason Love series and a number of historical "faction"
novels has apparently had access to secret war files after a time of say 25 years expired.
He wrote "Green Beach" and "The Unknown Soldier" from these records I believe.
The point I am making is that if this is the case then surely someone can access information on "Williams"?
#21
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 02 January 2002 - 13:51
Originally posted by ry6
For how long do "war secrets" remain secret?
How long is a piece of string?
Under the Official Secrets Act, information can be withheld as long as is considered necessary - some WW2 information came out after 25 years, some in the period since. Some files are closed for 100 years!
As the article makes clear, many SOE records were lost in a fire in 1946, so that info is irretrievable.
And the OSA is such a catch-all that even if files exist and even if you know the file number the MOD may not even acknowledge that it exists, or may deny its existence, or provide a heavily censored and essentially useless document and as I mentioned above, files concerned with the intelligence services are especially sensitive.
#22
RaymondMays
-
- 205 posts
- Joined: January 99
Member
Posted 03 January 2002 - 13:46
I read the article, and thought it was a fantastic story. I've now passed the magazine on to a friend.
Whether he survived the war or not, he was a truly amazing and courageous man, and I can't wait to read the book and see the film. A combined motor racing and war film - what could be better?
Whether he survived the war or not, he was a truly amazing and courageous man, and I can't wait to read the book and see the film. A combined motor racing and war film - what could be better?
#23
Joe Saward
-
- 26 posts
- Joined: January 07
New Member
Posted 04 March 2007 - 10:25
One of motor racing's greatest mysteries is solved!
There has long been speculation about the fate of the first winner of "W Williams", the winner of the first Monaco Grand Prix in 1929 who went on to become a British secret agent in World War II.
Officially, he was executed at Sachsenhausen concentration camp, near Berlin, on March 19 1945, the last date on which he was seen alive.
There were some who believed that "Williams" did not die and there have even been claims that he worked underground for MI6 in the post-war era and then returned to live with his wife in France, under an assumed name. These stories have never been very credible and in recent months documents have finally emerged from the KGB archives in Moscow which indicate that an SS Sergeant called Kurt Eccarius, who was in command of the special high security prison inside Sachsenhausen, where "Williams" spent his last months, had admitted to the KGB in 1946 or 1947 that he had taken "Williams" and three others, including Francis Suttill, another celebrated British agent known as "Prosper", to their execution on March 23 1945.
It is not clear whether Eccarius actually shot the four men but he certainly had a shocking record of brutality.
Unlike some others, Eccarius paid for his transgressions. He was one of 16 Sachsenhausen officials tried by a Soviet military tribunal at Berlin in October 1947 and was fortunate that at that time the Soviets had suspended the use of the death penalty. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with hard labour in the coal mines on the Polar Sea coast. He survived and in 1955 was released under an amnesty instigated by President Nikita Krushchev. Soon afterwards he was arrested by the West German authorities and was tried by a court in Coburg on charges of shooting six prisoners during a forced march when Sachsenhausen was evacuated in April 1945. He was convicted in November 1962 and jailed for four years. When he was released the German authorities arrested him again and he was charged with having participated in the murders of other Sachsenhausen prisoners, possibly including Josef Stalin's son Yakov. In December 1969 he was convicted and sentenced to eight and a half years imprisonment.
Perhaps the alternative romantic version of the fate of "Williams" is more palatable but if nothing else the mystery has finally been solved.
There has long been speculation about the fate of the first winner of "W Williams", the winner of the first Monaco Grand Prix in 1929 who went on to become a British secret agent in World War II.
Officially, he was executed at Sachsenhausen concentration camp, near Berlin, on March 19 1945, the last date on which he was seen alive.
There were some who believed that "Williams" did not die and there have even been claims that he worked underground for MI6 in the post-war era and then returned to live with his wife in France, under an assumed name. These stories have never been very credible and in recent months documents have finally emerged from the KGB archives in Moscow which indicate that an SS Sergeant called Kurt Eccarius, who was in command of the special high security prison inside Sachsenhausen, where "Williams" spent his last months, had admitted to the KGB in 1946 or 1947 that he had taken "Williams" and three others, including Francis Suttill, another celebrated British agent known as "Prosper", to their execution on March 23 1945.
It is not clear whether Eccarius actually shot the four men but he certainly had a shocking record of brutality.
Unlike some others, Eccarius paid for his transgressions. He was one of 16 Sachsenhausen officials tried by a Soviet military tribunal at Berlin in October 1947 and was fortunate that at that time the Soviets had suspended the use of the death penalty. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with hard labour in the coal mines on the Polar Sea coast. He survived and in 1955 was released under an amnesty instigated by President Nikita Krushchev. Soon afterwards he was arrested by the West German authorities and was tried by a court in Coburg on charges of shooting six prisoners during a forced march when Sachsenhausen was evacuated in April 1945. He was convicted in November 1962 and jailed for four years. When he was released the German authorities arrested him again and he was charged with having participated in the murders of other Sachsenhausen prisoners, possibly including Josef Stalin's son Yakov. In December 1969 he was convicted and sentenced to eight and a half years imprisonment.
Perhaps the alternative romantic version of the fate of "Williams" is more palatable but if nothing else the mystery has finally been solved.
#24
Paul Parker
-
- 2,198 posts
- Joined: October 02
Member
Posted 04 March 2007 - 15:50
I'm currently reading your excellent book Jo and enjoying it very much.
On a general note the problem with so much history, even relatively recent events, is that you can never be sure if 'Authority' is telling the truth especially in Britain. Why tell the truth when you can get away with lying is how somebody described it to me years ago.
Anyway thank you for writing this fascinating story of long ago and far away that I bought from Ian at Motor Books in London. Will there be a hardback edition?
On a general note the problem with so much history, even relatively recent events, is that you can never be sure if 'Authority' is telling the truth especially in Britain. Why tell the truth when you can get away with lying is how somebody described it to me years ago.
Anyway thank you for writing this fascinating story of long ago and far away that I bought from Ian at Motor Books in London. Will there be a hardback edition?
#25
Doug Nye
-
- 11,534 posts
- Joined: February 02
Member
Posted 30 April 2007 - 21:16
One of the pilots dropping both agents and supplies to the Maquis reception teams was George Abecassis DFC, of Alta, HWM and Aston Martin fame. His son David has just let me see some of his late father's fragmentary wartime service recollections.
George served with No 161 Squadron which operated 4-engined Handley-Page Halifax and Short Stirling Mk IV converted bomber aircraft - plus single-engined Lysanders - from Tempsford aerodrome in Bedfordshire.
George once told me of his last operational flight, which followed the loss of sister aircraft and crews on two previous failed attempts to re-supply Danish resistants. As flight commander George concluded he HAD to get the job done. This third-time-lucky attempt ended in his Stirling being shot down by a night-fighter over Denmark. The resistance ring had been compromised and the occupation force knew the aircraft would be coming, when, and at particularly low level (seldom above 300 feet).
George's written memories add further detail - the aircraft had two engines and one wing engulfed in flame, and George actually sighted a suitable field in which to put it down by the light of the fire... His entire crew bar one, his co-pilot, escaped the wreck.
On the excellent RAF Tempsford memorial website I have just found a record of his luckless co-pilot, fatally wounded by the night-fighter's burst of cannon fire. George recalled his name as Philp - he was Warrant Officer Ross Ferrier Philp, Pilot Officer 426260, Royal Australian Air Force. Age just 21. Son of Roslyn Foster Bowie Philp and Marjorie Alice Hewson Philp, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Buried in GORDING CHURCHYARD, Denmark.
This record fixes the date of Fearless George's last flight as the night of 6/7 October 1944 - and the aircraft as 161 Squadron's Stirling LK238 - MA-X - "Crashed in flames Vemb, Denmark. Operation TABLEJAM 26, Denmark".
Lest we forget.
DCN
George served with No 161 Squadron which operated 4-engined Handley-Page Halifax and Short Stirling Mk IV converted bomber aircraft - plus single-engined Lysanders - from Tempsford aerodrome in Bedfordshire.
George once told me of his last operational flight, which followed the loss of sister aircraft and crews on two previous failed attempts to re-supply Danish resistants. As flight commander George concluded he HAD to get the job done. This third-time-lucky attempt ended in his Stirling being shot down by a night-fighter over Denmark. The resistance ring had been compromised and the occupation force knew the aircraft would be coming, when, and at particularly low level (seldom above 300 feet).
George's written memories add further detail - the aircraft had two engines and one wing engulfed in flame, and George actually sighted a suitable field in which to put it down by the light of the fire... His entire crew bar one, his co-pilot, escaped the wreck.
On the excellent RAF Tempsford memorial website I have just found a record of his luckless co-pilot, fatally wounded by the night-fighter's burst of cannon fire. George recalled his name as Philp - he was Warrant Officer Ross Ferrier Philp, Pilot Officer 426260, Royal Australian Air Force. Age just 21. Son of Roslyn Foster Bowie Philp and Marjorie Alice Hewson Philp, of Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Buried in GORDING CHURCHYARD, Denmark.
This record fixes the date of Fearless George's last flight as the night of 6/7 October 1944 - and the aircraft as 161 Squadron's Stirling LK238 - MA-X - "Crashed in flames Vemb, Denmark. Operation TABLEJAM 26, Denmark".
Lest we forget.
DCN
#26
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 30 April 2007 - 23:26
Thanks Doug, I'd seen references to Abecassis' SD service, but never followed it up.
Coincidentally, today's Independent included the obituary of SOE agent Tony Brooks - head of Pimento, who came back from France on the same Hudson flight as Robert Benoist on August 19/20th 1943.
http://news.independ...icle2496664.ece
Coincidentally, today's Independent included the obituary of SOE agent Tony Brooks - head of Pimento, who came back from France on the same Hudson flight as Robert Benoist on August 19/20th 1943.
http://news.independ...icle2496664.ece
#27
fivestar
-
- 334 posts
- Joined: January 06
Member
Posted 01 May 2007 - 22:26
I have not yet read Joe's book, but going back to the start of this thread can anyone throw any light on who as George Tambal, the individual who reportably moved in with Eve Williams in 1948, and who co incidentially had the same DOB as Grover Williams.
Was this individual, fact or fiction.
rgds - 5*
Was this individual, fact or fiction.
rgds - 5*
#28
James L. Kalie
-
- 51 posts
- Joined: January 03
Member
Posted 02 May 2007 - 15:58
I'm sorry guys, but anyone who has read Joe Saward's book "The Grand Prix Saboteurs" would know how crazy this story is. The time lines aren't even close to matching. Maybe Joe would comment further. It may be hard for people to believe today but the SS 'loved' to kill people. If I'm not mistaken, the whereabouts of Yvonne Grover-Williams after the war doesn't line up with the story as well. Read the book!
#29
ensign14
-
- 61,992 posts
- Joined: December 01
Member
Posted 02 May 2007 - 16:26
Yes, I will send a copy to my 6 years younger self.Originally posted by James L. Kalie
I'm sorry guys, but anyone who has read Joe Saward's book "The Grand Prix Saboteurs" would know how crazy this story is.
#30
fivestar
-
- 334 posts
- Joined: January 06
Member
Posted 02 May 2007 - 23:05
Not to confuse things, the basis for my question came from an article in the 8W site entitled "A Different Danger-Three Champions at War" and is why I am asking is George Tambal fact or fiction.
I assume James your are saying George Tambal is fiction. rgds - 5*
I assume James your are saying George Tambal is fiction. rgds - 5*
#31
Vitesse2
-
- 41,863 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 02 May 2007 - 23:40
Well, as I wrote that article ;) .... the whole point behind it was to try to differentiate between fact and fiction. There's an awful lot of cr*p on the net and elsewhere about SOE.Originally posted by fivestar
Not to confuse things, the basis for my question came from an article in the 8W site entitled "A Different Danger-Three Champions at War" and is why I am asking is George Tambal fact or fiction.
I assume James your are saying George Tambal is fiction. rgds - 5*
All the stuff about Tambal came from Robert Ryan's piece in the Sunday Times which opened this thread.
I've been in touch with Joe Saward and revising that 8W article is on my "to do list".
#32
fivestar
-
- 334 posts
- Joined: January 06
Member
Posted 03 May 2007 - 00:00
Many thanks for the clarification. Will just have to wait until I hit the UK in June for the FOS and get a copy of Joe's book.
#33
philippe charuest
-
- 701 posts
- Joined: March 01
Member
Posted 04 May 2007 - 17:50
anyway his main competence (plus that he was a good driver i presume) as a spy is that he was fluent in french and could pass for a french if you were not looking to closely ,which was very useful in the context of the period during the german occupation, but later during the cold war years ? im not sure it was very useful, just saying ,not that i give much credit to that story
#34
ReWind
-
- 3,408 posts
- Joined: October 03
Member
Posted 08 May 2007 - 19:35
@ Joe [Saward]: Are you still looking into this thread?
While being in the process of reading your book I noticed the following:
page 79: „In the autumn of 1941 Willy received a letter from the Ministry of Works…“
page 90: „… they learned of the assassination of German officers in Nantes on October 20…“
page 92: „Willy spent Christmas in London and reported to Orchard Court early in the New Year.“
page 94: “... news came through that the Japanese had attacked the US naval base at Pearl Harbour.”
page 96: “There were two days to go before Christmas...”
Is it just me or is there something wrong with the chronology?
Nevertheless obviously a good read. My question doesn't intend to detract from that.
While being in the process of reading your book I noticed the following:
page 79: „In the autumn of 1941 Willy received a letter from the Ministry of Works…“
page 90: „… they learned of the assassination of German officers in Nantes on October 20…“
page 92: „Willy spent Christmas in London and reported to Orchard Court early in the New Year.“
page 94: “... news came through that the Japanese had attacked the US naval base at Pearl Harbour.”
page 96: “There were two days to go before Christmas...”
Is it just me or is there something wrong with the chronology?
Nevertheless obviously a good read. My question doesn't intend to detract from that.
