Early German Photos

I posted a link to these recently on 10/Tenths and Ray said they'd be welcome here. They were taken by my Grandfather in the mid 30's at the Avus track and elsewhere - probably mostly in the East of Germany as he lived near Dresden. I've also included an interesting image from the 1936 Olympics as a date marker. Hope you like them - there are some very peculiar cars which I certainly would like to know more about..

http://www.pbase.com...otorracing1930s

and if you'd like to see some of my own photographic efforts from Goodwood...

http://www.pbase.com/smarjoram/root

Thanks for posting these. A splendid collection. I shall have to spend more time looking at them

By the way, do you have an aunt or relative called Sue Marjoram? It is an unusual name.

I'm happy to see these pictures now here at TNF, I've commented them already at the other forum, but for certain reasons I've decided to drop my membership there. However, all people who made already serious comments to these photos are also here at TNF, plus a lot more of course. Therefore I paste my posting at the other forum quote-unquote here, and I'm convinced that these rather unusual and highly interesting pictures will find a very fruitful discussion here.

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I agree with Robert, the photos # 15-25 must be taken at AVUS 1934. I was rather surprised, but nothing in my archive about AU and AVUS 1934 to compare the style of the somewhat unusual font of the race numbers. However, it’s an A type, it’s wet, and therefore # 42 and # 44 must be AVUS 1934. Historical pictures, the first competition event ever for the Auto Unions!

Now it’s getting more difficult. The car with # 22 has been photographed at the same place, but obviously the road is (more) dry. Without doubt it’s a Maserati, and my first idea was a tipo 8CM. But - only 4 exhaust pipes! So it should be a 4CM, but they looked different. So dropping the exhaust and back to 8CM. There was Nuvolari with his privately entered 8CM (remember, quarrel with Enzo that year), but it’s neither Tazio nor his Maserati. Second 8CM was Lord Howe, but his r/n is known (# 48), and then there was Eugenio Siena with another 8CM. But Siena had no (blond?) moustache, and Taruffi was the first Italian as late as 1949 wearing one of these “newfashioned nonsense hard hats”. And then the # 22, not fitting into the numbering scheme of the FL race, plus the dry - or nearly dry - track. So back again to the voiturette race and Maserati 4CM. Only Maserati driver was Luigi Castelbarco, his 4CM1500 # 1527 comes close, very close, but that cars left the factory only on 8 November 1935...! The car is dark, probably red or green, and the helmet as early as 1934 points to Great Britain. No, it’s not Howe, his 8CM looked different, and as said - 4 exhausts only. Anybody able to offer a solution? May be another year than 1934? Or not AVUS but Eifelrennen??

Then we have the Bugatti with # 2. Obviously white, so most probably German entry. Could be Ernst-Günther Burggaller, Leif lists him with # 2, but are these really race numbers or only internal running numbers? If from Sheldon, you should be careful. And if really race numbers, how could # 22 fit into the scheme? And what about the second Bugatti? Race number 26, also white, for sure Photo taken from the same spot? Hans Simons?

The semi-streamliner with r/n 32 or 52, would fit into the FL race numbering scheme, and hence must be a Maserati 8CM. No info on my side about such a converted Maserati, anybody able to help?

What about the Alfa? Looks for me not like a P3 (btw, which Alfas had been streamliners besides that of Moll?), more like a Monza with exhaust on the left and driver on the right. Paul Pietsch? As far I remember the car was privately owned, hence should be white. Another mystery.

Picture no. 25 looks like an Amilcar, color seems to be white, so could be Willi Briem. Race number seems to have 2 digits.

Also strange is the other semi-streamliner with r/n 8. Low number points to voiturette race, so could this be Theo Fork’s MG K3 Magnette?

So, that’s it for the time being from my side. I have to say, very interesting job, even better than 8W. My general feeling is that this set of pictures has been taken during AVUS 1934, but the Maseratis still are a mystery. May be I have given some ideas for you to continue the research.

Just to complete the identifications so far, the top four AVUS pictures are the 1937 Avusrennen. The Maserati is Soffietti, the Auto Union is Rosemeyer and the two Mercedes are Lang (streamliner) and Seaman. The A-type Auto Unions in the three lower pictures are Stuck (#42) and zu Leiningen (#44) in the 1934 Avusrennen, which, as Michael points out, was their first race.

i'll do a quick carspotters guide...all the bugs are german as white was a required color...[duh]

#166/188...alloy wheels;large brakes; wide radiator..most likley a t35 c/b [possibly a t51]so 2.o or 2.3

#171...alloy wheels with flat rim; single fuel filler..a t35 c/b...[can't see the blowoff hole on the hood top]...NOT a t51.again 2.0 or 2.3

#26...wire wheels with large brakes;narrow radiator...might be a t35a or an t37 [even a t37a]..2.0 or 1.5

#2...alloy wheels; wide rad ..wheels look like drop center t51....most likley an 8 cyl. 2.3[ or in a ultra rare case a 1.5 t51a]

note on german bugs of this era....they were ALL painted white....also [with a few exceptions] the german owners tended not to modify their cars[externally anyway] from factory specs...so it makes identification a bit trickey..[unlike,say, the brits...but that's another story] so if a car was delivered with wire wheels and small brakes, the privateer was unlikely to upgrade to alloys w/ bigger brakes..also there seemed to be a large number of 4 cyl t37's in germany running 1500cc races...the number of 8 cyl cars is much smaller and the twincam cars just a handfull...all this is off the top of my head so i'll check the books later today and see if anything matches...

Originally posted by Michael Müller
:

Then we have the Bugatti with # 2. Obviously white, so most probably German entry. Could be Ernst-Günther Burggaller, Leif lists him with # 2, but are these really race numbers or only internal running numbers? If from Sheldon, you should be careful.

That #2 is the results (i.e. 2nd place), not a race number. I don't have the 1934 Avus voiturette numbers. If I remember right Sheldon don't have the correct grid or start numbers for the 1934 Avus GP formula libre race either. Tony Kaye assisted me in the research for the grid and numbers shown on my homepage.

Originally posted by dbw
#2...alloy wheels; wide rad ..wheels look like drop center t51....most likley an 8 cyl. 2.3[ or in a ultra rare case a 1.5 t51a]

Burggaller had a 51A in 1934

Originally posted by Leif
That #2 is the results

I believe Burggaller's 51A was a re-engined 35B - but I don't know whether he changed the wheels at the same time

These AVUS 1934 pictures reminded me of this thread:
http://www.atlasf1.c...ghlight=colours
Another pictorial confirmation that Auto Unions were already silver before paint stripping of Mercedes-Benz racers. So, we are back to question: why Auto Union and later Mercedes changed traditional German racing white to new silver paint scheme? Legend is obviously untrue, can we find real story?

Dmj, also my idea. However, quality of the pictures not sufficient to prove silver colour.
I'm working on this topic since some months, and there are reasonable results that at least the Eifelrennen 1934 story about the "Birth of the Silver Arrows" will be put into the fairy tales corner. About the reason of the silver colour and the covering changes in ONS / AIACR legislation - zero up to now!

As Hans is back now, I bring this thread to the top again, as for sure he has something to say, especially about this hill climb series.

Gotcha! This is Ernst von Delius with the "Zoller" voiturette! 1500 cc 2-stroke supercharged 12 cylinder with 200 HP. Detailed article about these cars in the actual edition of the German classic car magazine "Oldtimer Markt". Will scan and put online if somebody is interested.

Good spot Michael! There is a picture of the Zoller from the same angle, but much closer, in Georgano, page 631 - I should have recognised it really.

I'd certainly like to know more, and I'm pretty sure Leif would too! There's been very little published on them AFAIK.

As an aside, does anyone else find something ironic or disconcerting about the one face (or at least what the person is wearing) turned towards the camera in this photo: http://www.pbase.com/image/955630 ?

Neil

ja...actually i'm a bit more concerned with the guy sneaking a look over at the top of the banking.....

Finally I found the time to scan and upload the Zoller article. Source "Oldtimer Markt" 4/2002.

http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-1.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-2.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-3.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-4.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-5.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-6.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-7.jpg
http://www.axos.nl/r...ler-Markt-8.jpg

Originally posted by dbw
ja...actually i'm a bit more concerned with the guy sneaking a look over at the top of the banking.....

Whoa, good eye!

smarjoram - Thanks for the incredible pix.

Thanks for spending so much of your time investigating the details behind these photos - I'm trying to add the info to the gallery - make it a bit more presentable. I'm sure my Grandfather would have been chuffed to know that his photos had sparked so much interest.

And Ian, I'm pretty sure I haven't got an aunt Sue. Marjoram is an unusual name but there are quite a few around Suffolk. We're probably all related if you go back 300 years or so.


Cheers - Stefan

A quick question: In the AVUS '34 pictures, is that the original sudkurve, the one used until 1939? There's that hedge on the outside which doesn't appear on the pictures I've seen of the pre-1937 nordkurve. The road seems wider also, fits the descriptions I've read.

Pictures of the AVUS in any of its incarnations are scarce (or well hidden) in the net. Thanks smarjoram for posting these!

Another thread returns from the grave!

I can definitely confirm that the Bugatti numbered 2 is Burggaller. In the archives at the Bugatti Trust there's a shot taken immediately after the race, showing Veyron being congratulated by Korpsführer Hühnlein. Burggaller's car, which has a distinctive high tail, can be seen in the background, alongside Seibel's T37A, which is numbered 4.

Alfa Romeo in picture DSCN5364.JPG must be Chiron, #62.

Is car in picture DSCN5367.JPG Austin 7?

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955627
AVUS-Rennen 1937
Luigi Soffietti - Maserati 8CM s/n 3009 with 6C engine

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955630
AVUS-Rennen 1937
Bernd Rosemeyer - Auto Union C type streamliner

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955633
AVUS-Rennen 1937
#37 - Hermann Lang - Mercedes W125 streamliner
# 38 - Richard Seaman - Mercedes W125

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955636
AVUS-Rennen 1937
Hermann Lang - Mercedes W125 streamliner

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955649
1933 German Hillclimb (unknown)
Paul Pietsch - Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 Monza
List of possible events by exclusion:
Kesselbergrennen
Gabelbachrennen
Freiburg-Schauinsland
Riesengebirgsbergrennen
Würgauer Bergrennen
Ratisbona Bergpreis
Hohenstein-Bergrennen

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955653
http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955655
http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955658
http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955660
1933 German Hillclimb
Bobby Kohlrausch - Austin Seven Special "Rubber Duck"

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955672
1934 AVUS voiturette race
Ernst Burggaller - Bugatti 51A s/n 51134

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955669
http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955667
1934 AVUS-Rennen
Hans Stuck - Auto Union type A

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955674
1934 AVUS-Rennen
Prinz Hermann zu Leiningen - Auto Union type A

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955677
http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955638
http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955665
1934 AVUS voiturette race
Maserati 4CM-1500 s/n 1511
Count Luigi Castelbarco

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955679
1934 AVUS voiturette race
Willi Seibel - Bugatti 37A

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955682
1934 AVUS-Rennen
Louis Chiron - Alfa Romeo P3

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955685
1934 AVUS voiturette race
Bobby Kohlrausch - MG EX-127 "Magic Midget"

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955688
1934 AVUS voiturette race
Ernst von Delius - Zoller 1500 cc 2-stroke

http://www.pbase.com...am/image/955690
1934 AVUS voiturette race
Willi Briem - Amilcar C6