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TNF Top 10 GP Drivers


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#1 Wolf

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 16:41

I know it's a rant time, when threads like this pop up; but that Guardian list (and relevant thread) gave me an idea to try and disperse common repulse towards suh things. Maybe, just maybe top 10, 50, 100, whatever lists wouldn't be that much of an issue if they were done 'properly'. Of course, there's no pleasing everybody, but that's the point of democracy- rule of majority.

Just consider this idea- 'TNF Top 10 GP drivers', and no ranking just names... I would be worried if pannel of TNF members would have consensus on more than two or three names on the 'final' list, but that's the beauty of it. Why not give it a try? Especially, if we set out to have fun, maybe learn a few things (that's why I do it, in the first place ;)). For example, if Hans chooses to partake, I'm sure I'll learn quite a bit from his nominations.

Now, here are rules of engagement. Everybody gets to nominate ten GP drivers he or she thinks to be the best, prefferably with a short explanation. After a number of nominations (say, 10 or 20) is posted, I post a provisional list, and the floor is opened for debate. Until then, we will refrain from posting anything but nominations, esp. opinions on other ppl's nominations. The prerequisite to partake in discussions is to nominate drivers, and that applies (particularly, I should add) to those who intend to bash me for starting a thread like this. :p Let's try to be objective, but not to the point where we do not allow ourselves some leeway on our subjective grounds. We shall try and post exactly 10 nominations, but if one feels he cannot but to post fewer or more (within reason, that is) drivers he or she shall be allowed to do so. There shall be no (except provisional, or if one chooses to rank his nominations, but the ranking in that case will be disregarded for purpose of voting) ranking of drivers on that list. One should not use driver's overall (non GP) record as the primary reason for nomination, but it can be used to substantiate the claim. So shall be with WDC titles (a driver shouldn't be considered the best because he won a WDC or two, but that might help; we don't want drivers who e.g. didn't have the chance to compete in World Championship to be at disadvantage).

Disclaimer: this is not an attempt to make definitive or whatever list, just to get a host of opinions and perchance to show whether thera are some names that stand out (undisputable ones).

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#2 bobbo

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 16:55

I guess I'll stick my neck out and start the festivities.

In no particular order:

1. Tazio Nuvolari
2. Jim Clark
3. Stirling Moss
4. Richard Seaman
5. Tony Brooks
6. Mario Andretti
7. Dan Gurney
8. Michael Schumacher
9. J. M. Fangio
10. Alberto Ascari

Of course, I tend to look at the '50s through '80s, but that's just my personal agenda. I could also list another (huge!) group of favorites, not necessarily "greatest" contenders.

Bobbo

#3 karlcars

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 17:14

Already we have an issue. You said "Grand Prix" drivers, and for me that means everyone back to 1906, as your first response shows.

Or do you want to limit this thread to the "Formula One" era? Technically this goes back to 1947 but most people start it in 1950 with the beginning of the WDC.

Either way could be good!

#4 Oleksij Hrushko

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 17:15

Tazio Nuvolari - extremally quick and brave
Juan Manuel Fangio - one of the greatest
Alberto Ascari - quickest
Jim Clark - the greatest
Alain Prost - "academic" style
Ayrton Senna - emotional drive
Nigel Mansell - I like him
Stirling Moss - he have to be a champion
Jackie Stewart - three titles and campaign for safety
Graham Hill - won everything

#5 BRG

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 17:32

OK, it's worth a try. I tend to stick to post-1950, as I am reluctant to stray into areas of which I know little. But I did throw one pre-war name in...

Juan-Manuel Fangio
Jim Clark
Ayrton Senna any comment is surely redundant for these three...
Gilles Villeneuve (just so exciting)
Emerson Fittipaldi (such precocious brilliance)
Alain Prost (the thinking man's driver)
Carlos Pace (the lost superstar)
Sir Jackie Stewart (the first "modern" driver?)
Sir Stirling Moss (for always being in lists like this, despite never winning a WDC)
Dick Seaman (for sticking it Hitler)

#6 rdrcr

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 17:50

He said, "GP"...;)

In no particular order and leaving the driver's "character" out of the equation...

1.) Tazio Nuvolari - He epitomized courage and daring and for 30 years.
2.) Juan Manuel Fangio - The first master of getting the right drives and doing the most with them.
3.) Alberto Ascari - One of the bravest and the quickest.
4.) Jim Clark - Perhaps the finest "natural talent" the series has ever seen.
5.) Alain Prost - The Professor of tactics and technique.
6.) Stirling Moss - For his racer mentality and around driving skills.
7.) Jackie Stewart - One of the smoothest ever and for his work for all driver's safety.
8.) Mario Andretti - One of the best, if not the best, all around drivers to have competed in Grand Prix racing.
9.) Michael Schumacher - His motivational skills combined with his driving talents have produced results.
10.) Ayrton Senna - Despite his tactics, his driving was unparalleled for the times.

Honorable mentions:
Gilles Villeneuve - His style and talent was other-worldly.
Rudolf Caracciola - Very smooth with the massive cars of the era.

#7 Don Capps

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 18:00

Who says that "Grand Prix" of "Formula 1" drivers were or are necessarily the "best?"

#8 rdrcr

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 18:15

Don,

Hmm... I don't think I read that in Wolf's post, rather just the best that participated in Grand Prix racing.

I'd agree that many of the best drivers are found elsewhere... though often, they have raced in Grand Prix racing with varied results. Some, have WDC's to their credit, others have only won a few races. As an example, I'd rate Jacky Ickx higher as a driver than some I've listed in my "Top 10" for GP drivers. But I thought Wolf was looking for the best drivers in that series.

: And so it goes... the problem with lists!

#9 Wolf

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 18:51

Well, I'd say I'll respond to Karl and Don before I post my (quite faulty) list. Karl, I meant GP as in 'all time', not just after WWII and certainly not just WDC. Nominate any GP driver from any era You want. I particularly welcome are nominations from as early on (preferrably with explanation), since my knowledge is particularly faulty regarding early days through 30ies... But be prepared those pioneers and all before clash of Titans will be 'discriminated against', because they tend to get lost in mist of times. But they should not be forgotten. :)

Don, I didn't say the GP drivers are the best, nor do I think I could make that call, but I thought best driver ever would generate too much friction and dispersing attention (whether GP, rally, sportscars, CART, NASCAR, dirt, &c, &c drivers are 'better' and which discipline requires more skill)*. It thus seemed reasonable to restrict the discussion to Grand Prix, which would be somewhat of common denominator for all enthusiasts and experts here. This doesn't imply any superiority of GP drivers whatsoever over counterparts in other disciplines. :)

* in addition, I thuought I'd get a response about farmer on tractor (or such like quote) response within first 10 posts... :lol:

As for my Nominations:
my fave three drivers (each a Ringmeister in his own right)
Tazio Nuvolari
Juan Manuel Fangio
Stirling Moss

Jimmy Clark - just as sublimely great driver, but I rarly rank him with first three because 'naturally he is...' :blush:

Jackie Stewart
Michael Schumacher - (fights hard not to bite his tongue off) with all his faults, his superiority over his peers warrants him place in my top 10, on skills alone

These are sort of considering votes (not as absolute in my mind as first four (if I include him, shouldn't I also include..) :
Graham Hill - this is my subjectivity vote, but 5 Monaco wins and 2 WDCs, Indy and Le Mans don't make him look like very much out of place in any Top 10 ;)
Jack Brabham - maybe not the fastest or smoothest, but won two titles against Moss and one against Jimmy, the man was 'tough customer'
Alain Prost - I'd have to pick him over his arch-rival, both great driving talents in their own right, but..
Alberto Ascari - maybe a little too supersticious for my taste :p
Bernd Rosemeyer - my fave German :)

P.S. I do feel bad for not including Mario Andretti, and to certain extent Niki Lauda, Gilles Villeneuve and the driving talent of Ayerton Senna da Silva, but c'est la vie

#10 fines

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 20:09

Let me first congratulate Wolf for what is, in my view at least, a very creditable and sensible approach! Now for my nominees:

It is with some sorrow that I can't include any driver from the very earliest days, mainly because I don't feel any of them had a prolonged period of real dominance on the sport of Grand Prix Racing, and that again is my main criteria for all nominations: to be THE ONE driver everyone expected to win for, say, at least three years.

In chronological order:
  • Louis Chiron
  • Tazio Nuvolari
  • Rudolf Caracciola
  • Alberto Ascari
  • Juan Manuel Fangio
  • Stirling Moss
  • Jim Clark
  • Jackie Stewart
  • Alain Prost
  • Ayrton Senna
It is obvious that Michael Schumacher would be the next person on this list, but since I wasn't inclined to drop any of the before mentioned and my interest now officially :cat: stops in 1993, that is that. :)

#11 Don Capps

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 20:24

Originally posted by Don Capps
Who says that "Grand Prix" of "Formula 1" drivers were or are necessarily the "best?"


I hate these damn lists....

#12 fines

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 20:30

Originally posted by Don Capps
I hate these damn lists....

Don, I'm no fan of them either, but it's just a game and I really think that Wolfie's rules are okay.

BTW, did you partake in the 8w poll three years ago...? :)

#13 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 20:47

I hate 'em too Don but this one has been so pleasingly and intelligently launched that here's my personal ten (or rather, my personal ten for today, 'cos it does, has and will change):

Georges Boillot

Tazio Nuvolari

Rudi Caracciola

Bernd Rosemeyer

Hermann Lang

Jose Julio Fandango

S.C. Moss

Jimmy Clark

Jackie Stewart

(Mario Andretti would be included if this wasn't just 'GP')

Ronnie Peterson

Michael Schumacher

:blush: I never could count...

DCN

#14 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 20:53

Ahem - since the 'Edit' thingummy doesn't seem to be working the above post should have read as follows:

Georges Boillot

Tazio Nuvolari

Rudi Caracciola

Bernd Rosemeyer

Hermann Lang

Jose Julio Fandango

S.C. Moss

Jimmy Clark

Jackie Stewart

(Mario Andretti would be included if this wasn't just 'GP')

Ronnie Peterson

Michael Schumacher

:blush: I overlooked the 'GP' bit...in addition to losing count

DCN

#15 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 20:53

I would also include Caratsch and Bernd...

So we have, perhaps:

David Bruce-Brown

Louis Chiron (length of career is a part of that)

Tazio the incomparable

Raymond Sommer

Juan Manuel Fangio

The aforementioned...

...and his mate

Stirling Moss

Archie Scott-Brown

Fearless John

Alan Jones

Gilles the unforgettable

Sorry, Wolfing one, but I couldn't stop either...

#16 fines

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 21:03

Hey Doug, if you include Fandango, what about Floss???

#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 22:45

I can't possibly keep to ten, so I first used my head, then consulted my heart.

Head Choice (sorry Wolf, can't get it under twelve!) :

David Bruce-Brown

Georges Boillot

Tazio Nuvolari

Rudi Caracciola

Bernd Rosemeyer

Stirling Moss

Juan Fangio

Jim Clark

Jackie Stewart

Alain Prost

Ayrton Senna

Michael Schumacher

Heart's Choice (different criteria!) :

Christian Lautenschlager

Robert Benoist

Achille Varzi

Dick Seaman

Jean-Pierre Wimille

Froilan Gonzalez

Mike Hawthorn

Graham Hill

Ronnie Peterson

Gilles Villeneuve

I'd also like to put in a special mention for Léon Théry, "The Chronometer", whose career was almost over by the time the first Grand Prix was run, but who set the pattern for winning them.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 22:50

Originally posted by fines
Hey Doug, if you include Fandango, what about Floss???


'Foss'! Don't you have a record player?

















.....Or is my trackside-affected hearing and poor memory letting me down again?.....

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 22:52

Originally posted by Ray Bell


'Foss'! Don't you have a record player?

















.....Or is my trackside-affected hearing and poor memory letting me down again?.....


Not this time! Foss it is .... Girling Foss.

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#20 mp4

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 22:59

Lists, in and of themselves, are evil!!! ;)
However, in the spirit intended, I have 10 in no particular order . I picked these 10 because they all did well and I like them.
That's kinda why Michael Schumacher didn't make the list...
He is amazingly gifted but this list comes from the heart and not the head...
Here goes:

Ronnie Peterson - Car control that was kinda scary
Juan Fangio - He was a pioneer in the "modern age"
Tazio Nuvolari - A prewar hero
Gilles Villeneuve - See comment about Ronnie above
Ayrton Senna - I met him once
Mario Andretti - He won in almost every category
Graham Hill - A classic English gentleman who had a fantastic wit and much style
Dan Gurney - An all round good guy who won in a car of his own making
Jacky Ickx - Iffy choices in F1 but an absolute animal in Group C
Jackie Stewart - The wee Scot did his thing and did it very well indeed

Cheers

#21 JohnS

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 23:06

Originally posted by mp4
this list comes from the heart and not the head...


Me too:

Clark
Stewart
Fangio
Peterson
Brabham
Ickx
Moss
Villeneuve G
Rindt
Hakkinen

#22 Claeys

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 23:59

1. Michael Schumacher – the way he qualifies, the way he can push and be two seconds faster whenever he wants
2. Juan Manuel Fangio
3. Ayrton Senna – I’m a romantic as well
4. Niki Lauda – he won the title in two era’s
5. Stirling Moss –albeit only for what Jenks wrote about his eyesight
6. Mario Andretti – the first one I saw winning the WDC
7. Alberto Ascari – from what I heard, blinding fast
8. T. Nuvolari – see comment on Ascari
9. Jackie Stewart – meant more for the sport than being fast only
10. Mark Donohue – because he was as articulate as he was fast

#23 Simpson RX1

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 00:08

I did this list without looking at any other postings, so that I wouldn't be influenced by the thinking of others:

In no particular order (apart from vaguely chronological);

Fangio
Moss
Clark
Stewart
G Hill
Lauda
Prost
Senna
Schumacher

This list is based on the WDC from 1950 onwards, so no Nuvolaris or Seamens etc., and doesn't take into account the "might haves" who didn't because of accident, apart from Moss, who I'm sure most would agree would have scored a championship, if only because he was so close, so often.

All of these (again apart from Moss) won two or more championships, and I believe all showed their ability to do extraordinary things with inferior equipment, grit and determination in the face of adversity, and unparalleled natural ability (with the exception of Graham Hill, who just worked harder than everybody else!).

Right then, batten down the hatches, and prepare for the onslaught!!!!!!!

#24 Wolf

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 00:12

OK, here are, so far, multiple nominees (drivers in bold found themselves on half the lists or more) :

Juan Manuel Fangio (12/12)
Stirling Moss (11/12)
Jackie Stewart (10/12)
Tazio Nuvolari (10/12)
Jimmy Clark (9/12
Ayrton Senna da Silva (7/12))
Alain Prost (6/12)
Alberto Ascari (6/12)
Michael Schumacher (6/12)

Bernd Rosemeyer (4/12)
Gilles Villeneuve (4/12)
Mario Andretti (4/12)
Rudolf Carraciola (4/12)
Graham Hill (3/12)
Ronnie Peterson (3/12)
Dan Gurney (2/12)
David Bruce-Brown (2/12)
Georges Bolliot (2/12)
Jack Brabham (2/12)
Jacky Ickx (2/12)
Luis Chiron (2/12)
Richard Seaman (2/12)

P.S. Simpson RX1, You're not included because You posted while I was editing in Claeys' votes. That will teach You a lesson...;) Seriously, You'll be included in next update. :)

#25 Simpson RX1

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 00:17

Oh Wolf, you strike me like a dagger to the heart :cry: :rotfl:

#26 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 00:32

Winning is everything. It’s the name of the game.
Everybody will agree that a great driver is one who wins a lot of races and the more the better. It also is generally accepted that the less time -speak races- it takes to win, the greater a driver we have.
It is easier to compare results and victories on the presumption that talent will succeed. This applies for any era of the racing history.

My criteria therefore is RACES PER WIN. It is an unbiased way to look at drivers' achievements; favors no particular nationality, does not care if the driver is from past or present, ignores ifs and buts and eliminates any prejudice. By accepting only drivers with 12 or more races in the Grandes Épreuves, champions like Christian Lautenschlager are excluded with just two races, Georges Boillot (3), Ferenc Sziz (4) and Felice Nazzaro with only (9) races in Grandes Épreuves.

Here goes: Races per Win ratio:
2.35----Fangio
2.79----Michael Schumacher
2.80----Alberto Ascari
2.88----Caracciola
2.88----Jim Clark
3.33----Benoist
3.67----Jackie Stewart
3.90----Prost
3.93----Senna
4.26----Stirling Moss
4.33----Goux
4.33----Rosemeyer
4.80----Campari

I also claim that I am not good at counting.
Oh, ...........and Nuvolari? He has a 6.92 races per win ratio, which gives him place 20.
By the way, he still remains my favorite hero, but other drivers were simply better.

#27 scheivlak

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 00:46

Just having a go - without looking @ others:

Rudolf Caracciola
JM Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Stirling Moss
Jim Clark
Dan Gurney
Jochen Rindt
Jackie Stewart
Alain Prost
Michael Schumacher

apologies to Tazio, Bernd, JPW, Mike, Graham, Big John, Pedro, Chris, Jacky, JPB, Francois, Ronnie, Niki, Gilles, Nelson, yes-even-nige, Mika, JPM and others.......

#28 RSNS

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 01:10

To my mind, the best way to do it is to pick the domineering driver of each period. If you do that, you get, chronologically:

Nuvolari/Caracciola
Rosemeyer/Lang
Ascari
Fangio
Moss
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Prost
Senna/Prost
Schumacher.

In statistical terms, as already mentioned, the most dominant was Fangio. Schumacher is a relatively close second.

Of course there were the phenomena: Peterson, Villeneuve (père, of course), Ickx (the beginning of his carreer was amazing) and a few others.

So in absolute terms and in World Championsih period only my list would be shorter:

1. Fangio,
2. Schumacher
3 ex aequo. Clark and Ascari
5 ex aequo. Senna and Prost
7. Stewart and Perhaps Moss (very different reasons)
9 ex aequo. Lauda and Brabham

#29 Don Capps

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 01:13

Originally posted by Don Capps


I hate these damn lists....


No offense to Wolfi -- who at least raises this one far above the usual mindless exercise with some good thoughts behind it, but nevertheless I still hate these damn lists....

#30 eldougo

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 10:06

:)

I worked my list out a few years ago like this, using highest number of w/ championships wins.
for each ten years.
1950
------ FANGIO / ASCARI

1960

------ BRABHAM/ CLARK/ HILL.

1970

------ STEWART/ FITTIPALDI/ LAUDA.

1980

------- PIQUET / PROST.

1990

------- SENNA/ SCHUMACHER. :up:

#31 C F Eick

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 10:37

Each person has his/her own preferences, mine are rather emotional:

Tazio Nuvolari - nothing controversial about him, I guess
Achille Varzi - underrated, operated at Nuvolari level and, as a bonus, a cool name
Rudolf Caracciola - see Nuvolari
Bernd Rosemeyer - see Nuvolari
Hermann Lang - as I see it, the predecessor of Fangio//Stewart/Lauda/Prost
Juan Manuel Fangio - Nürburgring 1957 alone will make him a contender
Stirling Moss - Mille Miglia 1955 alone will make him a contender
Tony Brooks - underrated, operated at Moss level
John Surtees - doesn't seem to be able to get ouf Clark's shadow but for me he had it all

I've filled my quota, but after the above I would nominate:
Jochen Rindt
Jackie Stewart
Ronnie Peterson
Niki Lauda

Aaah, I hate these lists! :)

#32 Bruce Moxon

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 10:54

Oh Gawd

Um - given that I know very little about pre-War racing I'll have to restrict myself somewhat.

Nuvolari (forget what I just wrote)
Fangio
Andretti
Graham Hill
Jim Clark
Jackie Stewart (just don't let him pontificate)
Lauda
Senna
Prost
Schumacher major

But where do you stop? How about Von Tripps, Rindt, Ascari, Brabham, Fittipaldi, Villeneuve?


Bruce Moxon

But what right do I have?

#33 D-Type

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 13:32

I see I'm well over Wolf's first 20 so I won't post my two lists - Winners and Racers or Head and Heart as they are so similar to everybody else's.

But can I add an Honourable mention - Innes Ireland for writing All Arms and Elbows

#34 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 15:53

Rudolf Caracciola ........ talent and fineness onboard

Tazio Nuvolari ....... courage and talent onboard

Giuseppe Farina ...... talent and fineness onboard

Alberto Ascari ....... talent and fineness onboard

Juan Manuel Fangio ...... talent, fineness and courage onboard :wave:

Stirling Moss ..... talent and fineness onboard

Jim Clark ..... talent, fineness and courage on board :wave:

Jackie Stewart ..... talent and fineness onboard

Emerson Fittipaldi ...... talent and fineness onboard

Ronnie Peterson ......... courage and talent onboard


Oh well .............. and honorable mentions :smoking:

Graham Hill
Jack Brabham
Jochen Rindt
John Surtees
Niki Lauda
Mario Andretti
James Hunt
Carlos Reutemann
Gilles Villeneuve
Nigel Mansell

They should be in any statistically based list :rolleyes: Prost, Senna and Sch#%#@^er :p

#35 Juno

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 16:55

First a warm hello to everyone here. :wave:


Now,I don't mind making lists like these but since they are entirely subjective (and entirely from the heart) I don't always enjoy defending (read:dissecting) why these are my preferences.

In no particular order:
Tazio Nuvolari
Bernd Rosemeyer
Achille Varzi
JM Fangio
Jim Clark
Michael Schumacher
Ayrton Senna
Stirling Moss
Jackie Stewart
Gilles Villenueve/Ronnie Peterson

#36 Wolf

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 18:11

Things have slowed down a bit, so it seems fitting to post first update at score instead of two dozens of votes... I just added Juno's vote so this is results when voting became 'of age'.

Juan Manuel Fangio (21/21, 100%)
Stirling Moss, Jackie Stewart (18/21, ~85%)
Jimmy Clark (17/21, ~80%)
Tazio Nuvolari (16/21, ~75%)
Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna (13/21, ~60%)
Alain Prost (12/21, ~55%)
Alberto Ascari (11/21, ~50%)

Rudolf Carraciola (9/21, ~45%)
B. Rosemeyer (8/21, ~35%)
G. Hill (6/21, ~30%)
M. Andretti, N. Lauda, R. Peterson, G. Villeneuve (5/21, ~25%)
J. Brabham, E. Fittipaldi, D. Gurney, H. Lang (3/21, ~15%)
G. Bolliot, T. Brooks, D. Bruce-Brown, L. Chiron, J. Ickx, J. Rindt, R. Seaman, J. Surtees, A. Varzi (2/21, ~10%)

Scott-Brown, Jones, Campari, Pace, Farina, Goux, Donohue, Häkkinen, Piquet, Mansell, Sommer, Benoist (1/21, 5%)

Now, if I may take the liberty to comment, I quite like the 'grouping' of drivers: Fangio then Stewart, Moss and Clark (I figure they should be on the same number of votes, IMHO) then Nuvolari then Prost, Senna and Schumacher followed by Ascari and Carraciola. One gets to see eras (generations) sticking together... And surely, not one list missing Fangio is indicative.

#37 Ian McKean

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 19:18

I shan't nominate a list as I tend to agree with Don, but it is amusing to see what other people think.

And I find myself a little surprised that Seaman comes up in quite a few lists. I am not disputing that he was talented but surely he never really established himself as an ace? Perhaps had he lived a bit longer he would have, but, like poor Stuart Lewis-Evans, he didn't.

#38 BlackCat

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 21:54

looking at the names already mentioned i found that with just two changes to my original one i got a list, based on a different criteria. so i dropped Fangio & Nuvolari and added FC & RP. it's still my top 10 - but of racers who could not say all they had to say...

Rosemeyer
Varzi
Ascari
Hawthorn
Rindt
Clark
Moss
Gilles Villeneuve
Peterson
Cevert

(and, yes, i think Moss' career ended prematurely, but not so with Senna.)

#39 LB

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Posted 05 March 2003 - 23:11

ok here goes...

I don't know much about pre war but I do know enough to say that Tazio Nuvolari should be in the list. honerable mentions to Christian Lautenschlager, George Boillet, Bernt Rosemeyer et al but I only have 10 here...

Ok onto post war I think i will put in Alberto Ascari I'm missing Fangio simply because I think he benefitted from team orders too much although he was brilliant nontheless. Ascari did set a record that still stands with consecutive wins... Moss ? sorry but not in my top ten.

Jack Brabham for many reasons double world champ then took his own team to two championships and wins in the 50's 60's and 70's.

More sixties Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart ok I am biased... but it is nice when scots can prove themselves on a world stage. Nationalistic bias aside they will still be in this they did prove themselves that much :D

ok 5 I was fortunate enough to actually see race
Niki Lauda often completely forgotten about in these lists but to recover from that crash to take two further championships takes courage

Gilles Villenueve God...

Alain Prost the professor the thinking mans racer

Ayrton Senna the mad racer is so many ways opposite to Prost

one left I'm dying not to say Schumacher but I have to so Ralf goes in ;)

ok its Michael....

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#40 Ralliart

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 04:00

In no particular order and I'm listing a dozen:
Bernd Rosemeyer
Niki Lauda
Gilles Villeneuve
Jochen Rindt
John Surtees
Stirling Moss
Jim Clark
Ronnie Peterson
Alain Prost
Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Juan Fangio

#41 dmj

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 17:54

Bernd Rosemeyer
Juan Manuel Fangio
Ayrton Senna
Alberto Ascari
Niki Lauda
Tazio Nuvolari
Achille Varzi
Michael Schumacher
Alain Prost
Jim Clark
Emerson Fittipaldi

...well, that's eleven already...

I'll post others in that other tread about wasted talents but...

David Bruce-Brown
Christian Lautenschlager
Jean-Pierre Wimille
Guy Moll

and some others should be here too...

#42 Vrba

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 18:43

I will refrain on drivers that I personally saw racing in GrandsPrixnd that they were absolutely the best. This way I'll avoid the unjustice because of unsufficient in-depth knowledge about many early drivers (except what is commonly known but that I discount as it's not first hand experience)
So, during "my era", I nominate these drivers. In no particular (or maybe in something like chronological) order:

Piquet
Fittipaldi
Lauda
Hunt
Peterson
Andretti
Prost
Senna
Häkkinen
Schumacher

Hrvoje

#43 MarkWill

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 03:50

Of course, I come to the list in pre-humbled mode (missed most of these drivers when they were racing). Still, here goes:

1. Nuvolari - seems to embody everything a decent driver/winner should be, and just so talented
2. Stirling Moss - fast, decent, intelligent, and a great spokesman for the sport
3. Gilles Villeneuve - Brilliant, fast, amazing control, and one of the last guys who seems to have raced for pleasure as well as to win. Total belief in his abilities.
4. Jim Clark - Fast, versatile (as are/were the others on this list) and the supreme champion of the sixties era, without pretention (I like his sense of humour and his loyalty). Also my favourite driver of that era.
5. Rosemeyer - brave and fast, and because he won in cars and on tracks that were unthinkably dangerous (actually goes for all pre-seventies drivers, but more so the further back you go).
6. Lauda - fast, intelligent, and focused. Coming back after his accident makes him even greater.
7. Mario Andretti - The brilliant all-rounder, and very self-deprecating.
8. Fangio - talented (very), balls the size of coconuts, and a true old hero (not too many of those)
9. Jackie Stewart - Lauda without the accident.
10. Ayrton Senna - never liked the person, but I have to concede that he was a daunting, ruthless and fast driver who everyone wanted to beat - the yardstick by which others were measured.

#44 mat1

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 12:05

OK ,I'll take a turn too. I will refrain from the eras before my own time. It is even more difficult to say something original about for example Fangio.

In chronological order:

Brabham: perhaps not the best or smoothest driver, but the first to be successfull with his own cars. And 3 WDC's!
G.Hill: again not the best driver perhaps, but two WDC's and his focus....
Clark: of course
Stewart: smooth, focused, very successsfull
Fittipaldi: underrated, I think
Lauda: fine driver, technical insight, good eye for the managerial aspects
Piquet: perhaps a difficult person, but a good driver, very good technically
Prost: of course
Schumacher: impossible to miss.

That's nine...

mat1

#45 Yves

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 14:17

It seems I am not original :

- Nuvolari
- Moss
- Caracciola
- Fangio
- Clark
- Stewart
- Lauda
- Prost
- Schumacher
- and ... JP Wimille

I nominate JPW just to be a little bit original and because he is ... french :blush: no, no ... because he has been nominated in the past by JM Fangio himself :cat:

Y.

#46 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 14:29

Originally posted by Yves
It seems I am not original :

- and ... JP Wimille

I nominate JPW just to be a little bit original and because he is ... french :blush: no, no ... because he has been nominated in the past by JM Fangio himself :cat:

Y.


.... and wasn't it Wimille who first alerted the European teams to Fangio's potential?

#47 Yves

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 14:47

Originally posted by Vitesse2


.... and wasn't it Wimille who first alerted the European teams to Fangio's potential?


At least Amédé (Gordini)

Y.

#48 Joe Fan

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 14:59

In terms of Grand Prix racing talent, I believe that there have been only four drivers that I clearly rate over their peers:

Rudolf Caracciola
Tazio Nuvolari
Juan Manuel Fangio
Stirling Moss

Then it is "pick 'um" from this group for me.

Mario Andretti
Alberto Ascari
Jack Brabham
Louis Chiron
Jim Clark
Mark Donohue
Masten Gregory
Dan Gurney
Mike Hawthorn
Graham Hill
Phil Hill
Jacky Ickx
Niki Lauda
Alain Prost
Jochen Rindt
Bernd Rosemeyer
Michael Schumacher
Ayrton Senna
Jackie Stewart
John Surtees
Gilles Villeneuve
Jean-Pierre Wimille

....And perhaps a few others like Archie Scott Brown if he wasn't blackballed from the sport for his so-called "handicap."

#49 Wolf

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 16:24

After score and a half (that's thirty if one cares to use 'ordinary' numbers) votes, TNF jury has voted thusly:

Juan Manuel Fangio 26
Jimmy Clark 24,5
Stirling Moss 23
Jackie Stewart 22,5
Tazio Nuvolari 20
Michael Schumacher 19,5
Alain Prost 18,5
Ayrton Senna 18,5

Alberto Ascari 14,5
Bernd Rosemeyer 12,5
Niki Lauda 12,5
R. Carraciola 11
G. Villeneuve 9,5
R. Peterson 8
G. Hill 7,5
M. Andretti 7,5
E. Fittipaldi 6
J. Brabham 5
J. Rindt 4,5
A. Varzi 4
D. Gurney 3,5
J. Surtees 3,5
H. Lang 3
N. Piquet 3
J. Ickx 2,5
L. Chiron 2,5
D. Bruce-Brown 2
G. Bolliot 2
M. Häkkinen 2
R. Seaman 2
T. Brooks 2
J. P. Wimille 1,5
M. Hawthorn 1,5

Single nominations:
Scott-Brown, Jones, Pace, Cevert, Campari, Farina, Goux, Hunt, Donohue, Mansell, Sommer, Benoist, Gregory, P. Hill

Again, drivers in above list in bold got more than half the votes. Current TNF's Top (can't say 10 because 10th spot is currently a tie) drivers are: Ascari, Clark, Fangio, Lauda, Moss, Nuvolari, Prost, Rosemeyer, Schumacher, Senna, Stewart.



P.S. Joe Fan- since You nominated two dozens, I've given the first four nominated a point (since You singled them out), and half a point to the rest (You got 14 votes). If you don't think it right, let me know.;)

#50 Steve Philipps

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Posted 12 March 2003 - 16:55

My criteria is "How much fun were they to watch?

Patrick Depailler
Gilles Villeneuve
Ayrton Senna
Ronnie Peterson
Keke Rosberg
Juan Manuel Fangio
Juan Pablo Montoya
Jim Clark
Jacky Ickx
Alain Prost