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Who can identify this Ferrari?

Started by Jack Habits , May 10 2003 20:05

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27 replies to this topic

#1 Jack Habits

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 20:05

Hi all,

This is my first post here and I thought you could help me a little with identifying this Ferrari...

Posted Image

This SHOULD be Alberto Ascari, July 19, 1952, Silverstone.

Only record I can find is that that is the day of the British GP and that Ascari drove a # 15 Ferrari 500 that day.

This is NOT a Ferrari 500...

Could / should be a 375 Formula Libre...

Who can enlighten me?

Jack Habits

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 20:38

There was a formule libre race at the 1952 British GP meeting, and the Ferrari factory did enter a 375. However, it was driven by Villoresi, and that's certainly Ascari in your picture. So, either Ascari drove the car in practice, or it's a different meeting

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#3 fines

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 21:54

Hm, the windscreen is early '51, the headrest late '51, and the engine intake and nose '52... :

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#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 22:09

Michael, you're not going to like this .....

The same car is pictured on page 378 of Motor Sport, August 1952. As David says, it's in the FL race supporting the British GP.

It is described as "the car which Ascari took to Indianapolis".

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#5 Jack Habits

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 22:53

Hi again all,

David:

Any idea which other meeting it could be with Ascari driving it? It should be the UK as that is most defenitely where the picture was taken (98% sure it's Silverstone)?

Michael & Vitesse2:

Looking up "the car that Ascari took to Indianapolis" on barchetta.cc, it should be a "375 Indianapolis", S/N 01 (the only 375 Indianapolis that Ascari actually drove at Indy).

However, there are no records that that car was ever in the UK so what is it doing at Silverstone?

http://www.barchetta...375.Indy.51.htm

Vitesse2:

Would you be able to email me a scan of page 378 of Motor Sport August 1952?

Best,
Jack

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#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 23:08

Just so everyone can see it, here's the picture, enlarged, and with the original caption:

Posted Image

Apologies for the rusty staple!

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#7 GTE4289

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 23:10

Hi Jack. I told you these guys would amaze you. That's the car (though it is NOT the car Ascari took to Indianapolis!). The question is: When was Ascari photographed in it? If you notice the number "1" is painted completely differently! Not the same event? Did Ascari drive this same car at a different event that year with race #15 or could the number have been touched-up at some point?

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#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 23:42

The Motor Sport report calls it "the Indianapolis Ferrari", DSJ and CP in "Vanwall" call it "a works 4.5 litre Indianapolis Ferrari".

Ferrari weren't represented at any other British FL race in 1952 or 1953 AFAIK - GAV and EF tended not to race each other in those two years .....
[edit - except Boreham, which was F1 rather than FL! Vandervell apparently wanted £1000 starting money - the Daily Mail refused to stump up]

The figure 1 may look different, but I think that's just the slightly different angle and lighting. The 5 looks identical to me. And you can even make out the circlip holding the exhaust on in both pictures.

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#9 LittleChris

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:01

Doesn't look like Silverstone to me. How about Boreham ?

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#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:05

Just for completeness, here's Ascari at Indianapolis, before he broke a wheel:

Posted Image

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#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:13

Air scoop is different, obviously. Different wheel nuts on the Silverstone and Indy cars too ....

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#12 Jack Habits

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:14

Indeed, that must be the same car as in my picture.

Vitesse, you're more than forgiven for the rusty staple!

Do we tend to agree that "my" picture was taken at Silverstone?

I have replaced the cropped image with the full-size scan.

Jack

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#13 Jack Habits

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:18

I was busy scanning the larger image while you guys posted a couple of replies again.

Littlechris:

Boreham could be true. Villoresi raced and won with a "375 Indianapolis" there on August 1952 but he used race # 17 and Ascari did not particpate in that race.

Jack

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#14 m.tanney

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:20

It may have been an Indianapolis type Ferrari, but I don't think it could have been Ascari's Indy car. The Ascari car was sold to Chinetti and remained in America where it was modified and renumbered 0388. Entered by Mrs. Chinetti, it failed to qualify in '54 and '56. It finally returned to Europe in 1958 when it was driven in the Race of Two Worlds at Monza by Harry Schell. There's quite a lot of information about it on this thread:
www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s+&threadid=33559

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#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 00:38

Boreham:

1 It was run in torrential rain.
2 Villoresi's car was further modified, with another air intake just forward of the cockpit.
3 No mention of Ascari in the race report.

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#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 01:31

Regarding the number...

I think it's different, and it can possibly be explained...

Remember Roger's discussion about the red numbers on the M-Bs at Aintree and Silverstone? Well, those RAC rules about race numbers probably demanded sans-serif digits (as did the Australian rules that were copied from them)...

In that case, it's possible that the numbers had to be fixed either after practice, or even after a pre-meeting practice day where perhaps Ascari drove the car?

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#17 GTE4289

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 01:40

Ray, that sounds very possible. The "1" is definitely different, not just angle/lighting. The "5," however, looks to be placed identically.

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#18 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 06:38

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Boreham:

3 No mention of Ascari in the race report.

And he was in Germany for the Grand Prix.

The week following the Silverstone race, Autosport wrote:

"Contrary to popular belief, the 4 1/2-litre Ferrari which Luigi Villoresi drove at Silverstone was not one of the Indianapolis cars. It was a new experimental car with rubber-controlled rear suspension. Excesive bouncing made it difficult to handle, but it is said to be the most powerful Ferrari ever built"

I know nothing of this rubber-controlled rear suspension.

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#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 07:27

Maybe it had graduated bump stops or something?

It did have a transverse leaf spring, didn't it? Or that model did? Bump stops along the spring could give a rising spring rate I guess.

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 10:25

In The Racing Car Review, DSJ said of the 4 1/2-litre Ferraris which ran in Turn in 1952:

"The new 4 1/2-litre cars retained the same suspension system as before, but incorporated a tubular ruber-block between the lower front wishbone and the chassis frame, the main transverse leaf spring being reduced in thickness, allowing the rubber to assist be being compressed."

Presumably the Slverstone car was similar.

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#21 Jack Habits

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 10:50

I tried to scan a sharper image of it but this is the best I can do:

Posted Image

Jack

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#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 11:21

This could just be coincidence, but there are two plates in Pomeroy's "Grand Prix Car Vol 2" which may very well show this/these cars. Plate XI shows the nose of a 375 numbered 15, and I'm sure Plate X is the car raced at Boreham - the extra air intake I mentioned is clearly visible and it's numbered 17.

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#23 Jack Habits

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 14:29

Am I totally off track when thinking that this is the "Thin Wall Special" in an earlier guise?

Jack

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#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 15:47

Very interesting pic of Ascari in the car against that essentially British airfield circuit background. I would lay money on it being Ascari briefly trying out Villoresi's Formule Libre race-entered car during practice at Silverstone in the 1952 British GP meeting. However, I do have a problem visualising where on the Silverstone circuit this photograph could have been taken?

The car is heading left to right which suggests it must have been taken from the infield looking towards the spectator areas, but even then there was a safety bank around most of the circuit periphery. An exception was the section from Club Corner up to Abbey, but if this was during the meeting one would expect to see at least some spectators there in the background.

DCN

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#25 Jack Habits

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 16:31

There is a number scribbled on the back of the photo: "19752" which, with a little bit of good will, could be read as "19/7/1952" or July 19, 1952, the day of the British Grand Prix which again would be in line with DCN's comments.

Jack

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#26 David Beard

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Posted 11 May 2003 - 16:38

I too was wondering just where at Silverstone this shot could have been taken..I can't think of anywhere where there could have been that much of a grassy expanse in the background. I suppose the buildings in the distance should give a clue. Unless....perhaps it isn't actually on the race track at all but on one of the runways. (Once used for racing, of course, but not in 1952)

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#27 Pete Stowe

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 17:39

The Autosport report of the meeting comments that "Villoresi’s Ferrari still had the hard ‘Indianapolis’ suspension. Both he and Ascari reckoned it was a bit of a handful." - although these words could also refer to Ascari driving the car on some other occasion I suppose.

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#28 dolomite

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 18:25

Would I be correct in thinking that this would have been Ferrari's '52 GP car if the switch to F2 regs had not occurred? It looks significantly different to the Indianapolis car - apart from the air intake the fuel tank is taller, there are extra louvres in front of the cockpit and possibly the wheelbase is a bit shorter.