No. 27

There's been a couple of history of numbers games here, but I would like to know about why Ferrari chose to run numbers 27 and 28 on their cars for a long time. Was there any specific reason for this?

And what are the reasons, if any, behind other "favoured numbers" in Grand Prix racing, e.g. Red 5 or Senna's number 12.

Were these permanent numbers inspired by American practices, where some drivers always preferred a personal number?

They didn't choose it.
In 1980 Ferrari numbers were 1 and 2; Williams' were 27 and 28. In that year Alan Jones (Williams) won the World Championship; thus under the rules of that time, for 1981 Williams got number 1 & 2, and Ferrari took the "old" numbers from Williams: 27 and 28.

Those numbers didn't change until 1990, when the 89 World Champion, Alain Prost, moved to Ferrari and gave to the italian team the right to use number 1 & 2. They were back to 27 And 28 in 1991, when McLaren gained number 1 & 2 by means of Senna being '90 World Champion (McLaren raced under 27 and 28 in 1990). Ferrari remained with number 27 & 28 until the end of the 1995 season. For 96, FIA changed the rules and numbers 1&2 were assigned to the team of the current World Champion (in 1996 Ferrari with Schumacher), 3&4 to the team placed second (or first if different from Drivers World Champion), etc, etc.

I believe Ferrari's ownership of the numbers 27 and 28 came out of the period with Gilles Villeneuve (#27). Enzo really liked Gilles and paid some kind of tribute by using those numbers. #28 then was Didier Pironi. And when he crashed out of the championship in 1982, Enzo said he lost the WDC there. So he must have liked him too.
Although Gilles didn't speak to Didier any more after their 1-2 finish in Imola '82.

Interestingly, I vaguely remember one attempt by Ferrari to get FIA to change the numbering system. It may have been from Enzo himself before his death. This came from a season preview in Autoweek during the 1980s -- included the quote 'better for Tyrrell to be #27 and 28 and Ferrari to be #3 and 4 than vice versa, according to Ferrari.' If this is correct, he seemed only attached to GV and DP's numbers to a point.....

Ligier's 25 and 26 was another traditional assignment.

Originally posted by DOHC
There's been a couple of history of numbers games here, but I would like to know about why Ferrari chose to run numbers 27 and 28 on their cars for a long time. Was there any specific reason for this?

And what are the reasons, if any, behind other "favoured numbers" in Grand Prix racing, e.g. Red 5 or Senna's number 12.

Were these permanent numbers inspired by American practices, where some drivers always preferred a personal number?

No real element of "choice" or "favour" in it. Once permanently-allocated numbers started, for a long time, the only way numbers changed was either through swapping due to Championships or to the occasional "tidy-ups" that the Powers That Be enforced to take account of comings, goings, expansions and contractions on the grid.

That said, some teams kept numbers for years - mainly 'cos they were still around and never won championships. Tyrrell at 3/4, Brabham at 7/8 (they even kept 7 and 8 free when Brabham sat out 88), Ligier at 25/26...

1/2, 5/6, 7/8, 11/12 and 27/28 all did a fair degree of swapping around between Lotus, Brabham, Ferrari, Benetton, Williams and McLaren between the early 70s and mid 90s due to championships!

peru-fi has it correct, but to expand a little further, the fact that Gilles had 27 is ironically due in part to another Canadian, Walter Wolf. The Williams team had 20 & 21 in the mid-'70s, but when Wolf joined the team and then forced Frank Williams out the Englishman started a new team with driver Patrick Neve and a March bearing number 27 in 1977.

Originally posted by John B
Interestingly, I vaguely remember one attempt by Ferrari to get FIA to change the numbering system. It may have been from Enzo himself before his death. This came from a season preview in Autoweek during the 1980s -- included the quote 'better for Tyrrell to be #27 and 28 and Ferrari to be #3 and 4 than vice versa, according to Ferrari.'

Interesting...the Grand Prix International 1984 season preview had Ferrari at 3 and 4 and Tyrrell at 27 and 28, plus some others changed around...I also have vague memories of a Motor Sport report of the Hungarian GP 1984, with Alboreto winning in a number 3 (cannot remember now if this was an April Fool or a hypothetical scenario) and Matchbox did the '84 Ferrari with the number 3.

Also, Donaldson records in his book that Ferrari tentatively tried to have Tambay use the number 37 for the remainder of 1982, but this was vetoed by FISA.

Somewhat OT, didn't Newman-Haas have to cut a deal with another team in CART for 1993 to secure #5 for Nige so he could continue Red 5?

Uncle Davy, that is quite possible as Derrick Walker's team had been using the #5, and still do.

For 91 and 92, Penske used no. 5 for Emerson Fittipaldi. It could be Penske. In 93, Fittipaldi used no. 4 while Nigel gets his no. 5. In 94, the no. 5 belong to Walker.

...I also have vague memories of a Motor Sport report of the Hungarian GP 1984, with Alboreto winning in a number 3 (cannot remember now if this was an April Fool or a hypothetical scenario) and Matchbox did the '84 Ferrari with the number 3.

Well... I think you might be mistaken at some point: the first Hungarian GP took
place in 1986 - and I think Alboreto always had Nr. 27 at Ferrari.

And by the way the 1984 Matchbox is nice (one of my favorites) - but it did not
look that much like the actual Ferrari... It was no licensed product for sure !


http://home.wanadoo.nl/fat-fred/racing/f1racer_matchbox1984.JPG

Originally posted by Japan Time


Well... I think you might be mistaken at some point: the first Hungarian GP took
place in 1986 - and I think Alboreto always had Nr. 27 at Ferrari.

It is possible I dreamt it, but it may have been a joke report after the Hungarian GP was announced for 2 years' hence. An early Fantasy GP?

Or some Hungarian child playing with his Matchboxes in 1984...



There was a good Fantasy Grand Prix preview of Melbourne this year in
a Japanese magazine. In retrospect they happened to provide rather
accurate estimations on Raikkonen and Alonso - however JV had been
widely over-estimated...

I would love to post it, but it is written in Japanese - so I am not sure
everyone would be able to enjoy it...

Does any of you have some good stories to post ?

Originally posted by Uncle Davy
Somewhat OT, didn't Newman-Haas have to cut a deal with another team in CART for 1993 to secure #5 for Nige so he could continue Red 5?

Yes,
at that time, the CART numbering system was based on the car/driver results from the previous season.
in 1992, Michal Andretti was racing for Newman-Haas and finished 2nd in the championship, and Mario Andretti, also racing for Newman-Hass, finished 6th.

So in 1993, the NH cars were meant to be Mansell #2, and Andretti #6.

Now, being the nice chaps that they, like everonye involved in CART, Newman-Hass knew how Mansell was know for the Red 5. So they approached CART, and Walker Racing, who's driver, Scott Goodyear finished 5th in the 1992 season, adn Walker Racing agreed to give up the 5 they wokred hard throught the past year to earn.

So for the 1993 season, wihtout much fuss, Mansell #5, and Goodyear #2.

Originally posted by petefenelon
That said, some teams kept numbers for years - mainly 'cos they were still around and never won championships. Tyrrell at 3/4, Brabham at 7/8 (they even kept 7 and 8 free when Brabham sat out 88), Ligier at 25/26...

1/2, 5/6, 7/8, 11/12 and 27/28 all did a fair degree of swapping around between Lotus, Brabham, Ferrari, Benetton, Williams and McLaren between the early 70s and mid 90s due to championships!

I think this is certainly true. Maybe we could also add 15/16 for Renault.

But what's special is that there were times when almost 30 cars entered F1 races, and numbers as high as 27/28 were needed, but most of the time the grid was smaller and yet 27/28 was alwasy on the grid. What team used them first, on a more or less permanent basis?

Williams would have been the first team to use those numbers on a regular basis.

Originally posted by DOHC


I think this is certainly true. Maybe we could also add 15/16 for Renault.

But what's special is that there were times when almost 30 cars entered F1 races, and numbers as high as 27/28 were needed, but most of the time the grid was smaller and yet 27/28 was alwasy on the grid. What team used them first, on a more or less permanent basis?

I'd argue with "most of the time". Certainly until the mid-90s there were usually enough cars or little gaps not to need major renumbering.

13 was never used, 14 often missed out or given to a single-car team, so even if there was a 26 car grid 27/28 would still be there.;)

93 was a bit of an odd season as far as numbering was concerned:

0/2 - Williams
3/4 - Tyrrell, as ever
5/6 - Benetton
7/8 - McLaren
9/10 - Footwork Arrows
11/12 - Lotus
14/15 - Jordan - whereas it would normally have been 15/16!
-- then a big gap!!! --
19/20 - Larrousse - back to the pattern!
21/22 - Scuderia Italia
23/24 - Minardi
25/26 - good old Ligier
27/28 - the Scuderia, languishing titleless again
29/30 - Sauber.

The 92/3 close season saw two teams expiring though - Fondmetal had been at 14/15 and March at 16/17, with 13 being skipped and 18 left out to tidy everything up again before Benetton at 19/20. '91 saw the last single-car teams (Fondmetal at 14, leaving everything neatly paired from 15/16 down to Coloni at 31 pushing Jordan to 32/33 and Modena Lambo to 34/35)...


pete

First to use 27 regularly was the Hill team in 1974.

1983 also had some strange gaps caused by missing teams - no 14 (Ensign merger with Theodore), 19 (the March private team from the year before), 20-1 (Fittipaldi out), 24 (Merzario out), but when Spirit came in it used 40, rather than 37, which was the 'next' number after Toleman's 35-36. Any ideas why?

Other CART teams have periodically made arrangements to use numbers different from where they finished the season. JV's two numbers at Forsthye were #27 and #12. I think Penske has kept the #3 on occaison.

I also had that Matchbox Ferrari -- kind of a grotesque mating of the 1982 and 83 cars plus a Pirelli contract

I really miss the old Ferrari paint scheme. It just looked more exotic with the Italian sponsors, Agip, etc. I think they had a darker shade of red in those days, too. I even like the old "sports jersey" style numbers 27 & 28 they used to run. They really conveyed a sense of an "athletic" thuroughbred racecar. It was about sport, more than business.

Today's Marlboro cars just don't have the same mystique. I particularly detest those Vodaphone swooshes.

Originally posted by Aubwi
I really miss the old Ferrari paint scheme. It just looked more exotic with the Italian sponsors, Agip, etc. I think they had a darker shade of red in those days, too. I even like the old "sports jersey" style numbers 27 & 28 they used to run. They really conveyed a sense of an "athletic" thuroughbred racecar. It was about sport, more than business.

Today's Marlboro cars just don't have the same mystique. I particularly detest those Vodaphone swooshes.

The colour was rosso corsa, the classic Italian racing red. The "Marlboro red" used nowadays is quite different I think. Much more towards orange.

Ah, one can only be sorry to see all these logical explanation of what one used to accept as part of mystic racing nythology and secret numerology... So, all the major number changes during that period now look perfectly explainable and reasonable, except one: how and why McLaren ednded with 7 and 8 in 1993? One would expect them to have 5 and 6...

Originally posted by dmj
Ah, one can only be sorry to see all these logical explanation of what one used to accept as part of mystic racing nythology and secret numerology... So, all the major number changes during that period now look perfectly explainable and reasonable, except one: how and why McLaren ednded with 7 and 8 in 1993? One would expect them to have 5 and 6...

I'd guess it was just a "general tidy-up" after Brabham had dropped out. Besides, completely countering my earlier arguments, 7 and 8 were "more McLaren" than 5 and 6 ;)

pete

Interesting... just looking at numbering for '74, which I always thought was the first season with "permanent numbers", and to some extent they were:

1/2 Lotus
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 McLaren - Texaco/Marlboro
7/8 MRD
9/10 March
11/12 Ferrari
14/15 BRM
16/17 Shadow
18/19 Surtees
20/21 Williams
24 Hesketh - now there's a number I associate with a team, but doesn't everyone about my age?
26/27 Hill
33 McLaren - Yardley
37 BRM!
55 Parnelli
66 Penske

But some of the teeny teams seemed to switch around a bit...
22 was seen on Ensigns and the Amon
23 was on a private Lotus, the AAW Surtees and the Trojan
25 was seen on Maki and Ensign
29 was seen on a Gunston entry for Ian Scheckter, the Lyncar and the Trojan
30 was seen on the Amon and a Surtees for Quester
31 was twice seen on a Lotus but also on a Finotto Brabham
32 was seen on Eddie Keizan's Tyrrell, the Token, and a Finotto Brabham for the late Koinigg
34 and 42 were seen on various Brabhams... (as was 43)
35 on Mike Wilds' Dempster Ensign and the Token
41 on the Trojan
44 on Kinnunen's AAW Surtees
50 on Weitzes' Brabham
208 on Lella Lombardi's Brabham

75 becomes a bit more straightforward - with some tidying-up!

1/2 McLaren
2/3 Tyrrell
5/6 Lotus - obvious swap
7/8 Brabham
9/10 March
11/12 Ferrari
14 BRM
15 Third tyrrell
16/17 Shadow
18/19 Surtees when they turned up, although an Ensign crept in once while they were away.
20/21 Williams
22/23 Hill
24 Hunt's Hesketh
25/26 "sponsored" Heskeths, usually, but they leapt around...
27 Parnelli
28 Penske (now Mario and Captain Nice - there's a 27/28 pairing to savour ;))
29 Lombardi's March
30 Copersucar
31 Ensign
32 (south african privateers) then a bit of a mix of Hesketh and Ensign
33 Ensign, occasionally
34 Ertl's Hesketh.

The mystery here is why Ensign and the sponsored Heskeths kept jumping around... but we still don't get "true" stability yet...

So let's look at 76 - nope, we haven't yet got to "the age of reason"!

1/2 Ferrari
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 Lotus
7/8 Brabham (+ 77 for Stommelen)
9/10 March "A Team"
11/12 McLaren
13 Divina Galica's Surtees!
14 BRM.... well their entry anyway
15 private Lexington Tyrell
16/17 Shadow
18/19 Surtees
20/21 Williams/Wolf-Williams
22 Ensign
24/25 Hesketh
26 Ligier
27 Parnelli - not full season!
28 Penske
30/31 Copersucar
32/33 RAM Brabhams
34/35 March "B Team"
38 Norev Surtees
51 Kojima
52 Heros Tyrrell
54 Maki

Now, the fun seems to be around Boro (the dodgy Ensign) and the private Tyrrells of Stuppacher and Pesenti-Rossi - 37, 39 and 40 seem to have them swapping around quite a lot (though for the most part 37 was the Boro). (Pat Reilly's private Shadow had 40 once as well). 37 and 40 were both seen on Pesenti-Rossi's car and the Boro... 39 too on Pesenti-Rossi's car. Oh and the F&S Penske had 39...

So the "noise" is down at the level of the teeny teams... but still not True Bernie Rationalism.

Let's go on a year!

1977 - nope, still not quite sacred geometry! - a few changes around the season, largely caused by BRM!

1/2 McLaren
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 Lotus
7/8 Brabham (+21 for third car)
9/10 March
11/12 Ferrari
14 BRM.. didn't turn up for that one did it? Later given to Interscope
15 Renault when they started!
16/17 Shadow
18/19 Surtees
20 Wolf
21 3rd Brabham
22/23 Ensign (not always 23)
24/25 (occasionally) Hesketh
26 Ligier
27 WGPE (although also a second Ligier in Japan)
28/29 Copersucar (although after Hoffmann dropped out, a BRM appeared as 29...)
30 Chesterfield (Lunger)
31 LEC
32/33 RAM/F&S
34/35 ATS (although a BRM was seen as 35 before ATS went up to 2 cars...)
36 Iberia (de Villota)
37 Merzario
38 Henton's "British F1 Team" - later seen on the Boro when Superhen took that over. Consistent?
39 Hesketh
40 extra McLaren for Gilles - but, you've guessed it - also seen on a BRM!
41 Jolly Club
44 Melchester (Tony Trimmer)
45 McGuire once, but also seen on a Muritsu Tyrrell in Japan
51 Kojima
52 Heros - nice to see they kept their one-off numbers!

Well, we're still not in the modern age yet. So let's look at 78.... finally! the first "rational" year.

1/2 Brabham (66 for Piquet when he replaced Lauda)
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 Lotus (Jarier used 55 when replacing Ronnie - quite rightly)
7/8 McLaren
9/10 ATS (who'd bought March's FOCA membership so it's sensible to take their numbers)
11/12 Ferrari
14 Fittipaldi
15 Renault
16/17 Shadow
18/19 Surtees
20/(21 occasionally) Wolf
22/23 Ensign
24 Hesketh
25 Rebaque
26 Ligier
27 WGPE
28 De Villota's private entry
29 BS Fabs McLaren for Piquet
30 BS Fabs - Lunger
31 Martini
32 Theodore
33 extra works McLaren for Bruno Giacomelli
35/36 Arrows
37/(38 rarely!) Merzario
39 Interscope
40 Melchester

Finally - a season where no number appeared on more than one distinct entry...!
pete

'79 is nearly perfect, only Alfa blotting the copybook with their second entry. Fittipaldi looks a little odd with 14 and 19!

1/2 Lotus
3/4 Tyrrell - + 33 for extra car
5/6 Brabham
7/8 McLaren
9 ATS (HG-S had obviously told someone he was going to run two...)
11/12 Ferrari
14/19 Fittipaldi (now why didn't they pick 13 when they started running an extra car for Ribeiro ;))
15/16 Renault
17/18 Shadow (being "pushed down one" by Renault but keeping one of their old numbers!)
20 Wolf
22 Ensign
24 Merzario
25/26 Ligier
27/28 WGPE
29/30 Arrows
31 Rebaque
35 Autodelta
36 Kauhsen - until they gave up and Alfa ran a second car...

Of course, it gets worse in '80 with one number being seen on three distinct entries...

1/2 Ferrari
3/4 Tyrrell
5/6 Brabham
7/8 McLaren
9/10 ATS
10/11 Lotus
14 Ensign (Who cleverly took 41 for their second entry when it turned out)
16/16 Renault
17/18 Shadow
21/22 Fittipaldi (what's the story with 19/20 - did someone drop out? I guess the Wolf/Fittipaldi merger didn't create the gap...)
22/23 Alfa
25/26 Ligier
27/28 Williams
29/30 Arrows
31 Osella
41 second Ensign
43 - oh dear - Desiree Wilson's private Williams, Mansell's Lotus and Mike Thackwell's Tyrrell!
50/occasionally 51 - RAM Williams.

It all looks rational from '81 on. At least, I'm not ploughing on any further! So when did "keeping the same number" start? Well I'd always been told 1974 and for the mainstream entries of the works teams maybe it's true....;) but as ever the truth is more complicated!

How about this Matchbox Ferrari?


Is this a Footwork or generic F1 Matchbox?


Here's a memorable CART car from Hot Wheels

Originally posted by petefenelon
21/22 Fittipaldi (what's the story with 19/20 - did someone drop out? I guess the Wolf/Fittipaldi merger didn't create the gap...)

Emmo used 20 and 21, which were Wolf's numbers from the previous year.

Incidentally, Lang's history includes a photo of the Osella at a press presentation and it has the number 30.

And the Lombardi 208 was because 208 was the radio frequency of the chief sponsor.

I bewlieve Larrousse tried to get number 76 in about 1988 because he was being sponsored by a French department with that number - he was officially given 30, but in most shots I have seen the 76 is easier to see. (Erik Comas used to use 26 in F3000 for similar reasons.)

Pete, wonderful stuff!

Interesting to see that 27/28 was once an American entry (or two). Funny, I should have remembered as I went to those races.

In the end though, I think it takes time to make a legend, and to me 27/28 is "Ferrari" more than anything else. I suppose that as long as numbers were swapped, they didn't become closely associated with a particular team or driver. Another reason might be that the small teams came and went and had to get and give up their numbers. Only a team with more visibility would make a number "theirs."

Some teams (such as Williams), although running on a regular basis, were (I'm talking mid 70s here) too far away from the winner's circle, and as "also-rans" they didn't get the attention that would make them associated with the numerology of GP racing.

I remember seeing Williams in the 70s, and I remember thinking of them a little bit as a "garagiste" team from the kit-car era. I had no idea at all, and much less guessed, that their time would come, and that their future greatness would make them a dominating team in F1.

Well done Pete! But don't forget Gilles' first race in a Ferrari was numbered 21 at Mosport in 77.

Originally posted by ensign14
Interesting...the Grand Prix International 1984 season preview had Ferrari at 3 and 4 and Tyrrell at 27 and 28, plus some others changed around...I also have vague memories of a Motor Sport report of the Hungarian GP 1984, with Alboreto winning in a number 3 (cannot remember now if this was an April Fool or a hypothetical scenario) and Matchbox did the '84 Ferrari with the number 3.

You're not dreaming... The first Hungarian GP was scheduled for 1984 (IIRC I saw it in a prelimenary FIA-calendar), but negotiations were too slow and the contract was eventually signed at the autumn of 1985. Then a feverish constuction work had started and the track was completed in nine month's time. Initially there were talks about holding the race on a street course in Budapest, either in the Nepliget (not the same circuit as the one used in the 30s) or in the Varosliget. (Perhaps the new version of the old Formula Junior track?) Eventually it was decided it's better to build a brand new race track in the outskirts of Budapest.

Originally posted by ensign14
Emmo used 20 and 21, which were Wolf's numbers from the previous year.

Incidentally, Lang's history includes a photo of the Osella at a press presentation and it has the number 30.

And the Lombardi 208 was because 208 was the radio frequency of the chief sponsor.

I bewlieve Larrousse tried to get number 76 in about 1988 because he was being sponsored by a French department with that number - he was officially given 30, but in most shots I have seen the 76 is easier to see. (Erik Comas used to use 26 in F3000 for similar reasons.)

Ah yes, I had two 22s for that season - I think I was looking at the row number in my spreadsheet rather than the car number (hey, it was 2am!) - 20/21 is correct.

208 was of course "Fab 208" Radio Luxemburg ;)


pete

Originally posted by ensign14
First to use 27 regularly was the Hill team in 1974.

1983 also had some strange gaps caused by missing teams - no 14 (Ensign merger with Theodore), 19 (the March private team from the year before), 20-1 (Fittipaldi out), 24 (Merzario out), but when Spirit came in it used 40, rather than 37, which was the 'next' number after Toleman's 35-36. Any ideas why?

Just some speculations:
Could there have been other aspirant entries that were promised these numbers? Probably Minardi, that came in '85 and Beatrice-Ford?
Could the numbers be reservated by major teams for possible third car entries? For example: Jonathan Palmer was running a Williams for some races at the end of '83. Can't remember the startingnumber.

Originally posted by No27
Could the numbers be reservated by major teams for possible third car entries? For example: Jonathan Palmer was running a Williams for some races at the end of '83. Can't remember the startingnumber.

42 ;)

27 was Frank Lockhart's favourite number!

Originally posted by John B
Other CART teams have periodically made arrangements to use numbers different from where they finished the season. JV's two numbers at Forsthye were #27 and #12. I think Penske has kept the #3 on occaison.

I belive the #3 was kept for Al Unser Jr, but i could be wrong.
and #14 is still reserved in CART to A.J. Foyt, as long as he is still a figure in motorsport.

Originally posted by Pikachu Racing
Here's a memorable CART car from Hot Wheels

Dude, what ar is that,
it was one of the ars in my toybox when i was younger!

Originally posted by Flying Panda
Dude, what ar is that,
it was one of the ars in my toybox when i was younger!

Bobby Rahal's 1992 championship winning Rahal-Hogan Lola/Chevrolet T92/00.

On second thoughts, seeing as it has an STP sticker on it, it may be his 1991 Kraco-Galles Lola/Chevrolet T91/00... poor colour reproduction, you see!

[in other words, I'm colourblind, mate! ]

Originally posted by No27
Could there have been other aspirant entries that were promised these numbers? Probably Minardi, that came in '85 and Beatrice-Ford?

That reminds me, in Grand Prix International in mid-84, when the Minardi was first presented to the Press, it bore the number 33.

Penske using 3 may be a corollory of his always using 6 - or 66 - as 2 3s are 6.

Can't remember. The Kraco car could Michael Andretti or Bobby Rahal.

I believe Andretti-Green racing have done a deal with Kelley Racing (#7) and A J Foyt (#11), to run those numbers in the Indy Racing league due to their 7-Eleven sponsorship.

Pat Patrick's team in Champs Cars is always associated with #20 (and multiples thereof). Johncock, Andretti & Smiley used 20, 40 & 60 at the '81 Indy 500. Servia is still using #20 in CART this year.

Originally posted by stephen jenkins
I believe Andretti-Green racing have done a deal with Kelley Racing (#7) and A J Foyt (#11), to run those numbers in the Indy Racing league due to their 7-Eleven sponsorship.

As they did in NASCAR - for a year or two the Wood Bros forwent their usual 21 for 7 when sponsored by 7-11.

Originally posted by Pikachu Racing
Here's a memorable CART car from Hot Wheels

Hey, I have that Hot Wheels car too!

But it is definetly not Rahal's 1992 championship car, as that year was a Black and Gold Miller car.

I'm surpirsed no one has mentioned the RED 5.

Originally posted by Heretic
I'm surpirsed no one has mentioned the RED 5.

Opening post?

Back to number 27 Ferrari. It's fully correct that it was retained so long because it was Gilles Villeneuve racing number. When he died, the fan press in Italy asked for the number being reserved for ever to Gilles, i.e., no other car/driver should have used it any more. Starting places with no. 27 began to appear on the start/finish line in some Italian race tracks. Then, rules forced Ferrari to accept the fabled no. 27 to be assigned to other drivers and, finally, to change its racing numbers.

Originally posted by aldo
Back to number 27 Ferrari. It's fully correct that it was retained so long because it was Gilles Villeneuve racing number. When he died, the fan press in Italy asked for the number being reserved for ever to Gilles, i.e., no other car/driver should have used it any more. Starting places with no. 27 began to appear on the start/finish line in some Italian race tracks. Then, rules forced Ferrari to accept the fabled no. 27 to be assigned to other drivers and, finally, to change its racing numbers.

It's not true at all - it had nothing to do with Villeneuve. This thread has taken great pains to point out that No. 27 was Ferrari's for most of the 80s because they were unable to win the World Championship.

Please don't let emotion get in the way of facts.

Hear Hear Pete!

Vileneuve ran 27 for a year and a bit and won a couple of races with it. Alan Jones won a hatful and a World championship. Let's put the Villeneuve/No.27 myth to bed!

Originally posted by John B
Interestingly, I vaguely remember one attempt by Ferrari to get FIA to change the numbering system. It may have been from Enzo himself before his death. This came from a season preview in Autoweek during the 1980s -- included the quote 'better for Tyrrell to be #27 and 28 and Ferrari to be #3 and 4 than vice versa, according to Ferrari.' If this is correct, he seemed only attached to GV and DP's numbers to a point.....

I was just going through the first issue of the Ferrarissima book/magazine of 1984 and I came across a picture of Alboreto in a Ferrari 126 C4 at Fiorano carrying #3 and I vaguely remembered something of Ferrari going to use #3 and 4 for 1984.

Originally posted by ensign14
Interesting...the Grand Prix International 1984 season preview had Ferrari at 3 and 4 and Tyrrell at 27 and 28, plus some others changed around...

I remembered the same thing. But it turned out not to be Tyrrell who were given the 27 and 26 #'s but the RAM of Philippe Alliot carrying #27 and #28 was gone altogether (out of respect for Pironi perhaps?;) )
Tyrrell where supposed to run #9 and 10 for the 1984 season according to Grand Prix International #75 of March 1, 1984.

I tried to find more clues to this reshuffling of the numbers for 1984.
In preparation for the 1984 season there were two mayor tests. One between Januari 15 and 21 in Rio and one in Kyalami about a month later. During the Rio test Ferrari was testing a modified version of the 126 C3 and they carried the normal #'s 27 and 28. I haven't found pictures of the Kyalami test, but during the presentation of the new Ferrari 126C4 on Februari 16, the car definately carried the #'s 3 and 4 (4 on the left for Arnoux and 3 on the right side of the car for Alboreto.)
But at the start of the season everything was turned back to normal again: Tyrrell got #'s 3 and 4 and Ferrari got #'s 27 and 28 and RAM got two cars with #'s 9 and 10.

I think the solution to the 'why' of the reshuffling for 1984 is very simple: in the beginning of March dr. Jonathan Palmer signed for RAM to drive their second car. Up to that point FIA tried to bring down the numbers and make them logical: there were supposed to be 26 cars in contention in 1984, so with the exclusion of #13, that meant that the numbers should be no higher than 27. (which was precisely the case in the proposed numbering in GPI #75.)
For example: they took 35 and 36 from Toleman and fitted them in at 19 and 20.
But now that RAM were going to run two cars there had to be a # 28 anyway and it made no sense to take them from Ferrari anymore.

So in my opinion the reshuffling was just practical, just as the re-reshuffling before the first Grand Prix in Rio. I think that during the '80s Ferrari only ever ran #'s 3 and 4 at Fiorano between mid-Februari and the beginning of March 1984.
No sign of nostalgia of mister Ferrari I'm affraid.

A Canadian myth about #27 is that Villeneuve requested it when he took over as Number One at Ferrari as he wanted to break the all-time record for wins by a driver which was Jackie Stewart's 26.
Hence, number 27.

Originally posted by RRT1963
A Canadian myth about #27 is that Villeneuve requested it when he took over as Number One at Ferrari as he wanted to break the all-time record for wins by a driver which was Jackie Stewart's 26.
Hence, number 27.

Nice myth but of course Stewart had 27 wins... As respectful as he undoubtfully was, anyway I don't believe Villeneuve wanted only to equal that.