psst, hey Buford, over here

I guess this would be a good thread to ask all the racing questions I guess.

Anyways, at Bufords request I started this thread.

My first question:

Since you attended Indy for 37 straight years (as you say), I was wondering, what was, and is your view on Indy 1981?

Especially on the Danny Ongais incident and the whole debacle of the finish between Bobby Unser and Mario Andretti?

If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your account on the events.

I requested it be asked here because it was first asked on the Paddock Club and we have been told not to talk about racing there. I know we have discussed this before on TNF and I commented then but I cannot find it in the search.

The Ongais accident at the time totally blew our minds. At the time it was the worst distruction of a race car with the driver all exposed where he survives that we had ever seen. Still may be. As for my opinion of who won, I think Mario. Bobby obviously deliberately cheated. But I can see why the final ruling went the way it did because Mario also passed 2 or 3 cars when he was chasing Bobby out of the pits and before he realized what he was doing and tucked in and immediately radioed Bobby had cheated on the blend rule. Mario let Bobby go and relied on the officials to make it right.

This was the incident that caused the racing organizations to have replays available to the Chief Steward. Everybody in turn 1 saw it including the observers who called it in. But because it was such an important decision, and without any visible evidence at their disposal at the time, USAC made no call until after the race when they first saw the TV replay. The appeals panel several months later overturned the stewards and gave the win back to Unser. I can see the logic in it going either way.

Now, jes' settle down on that there cracker barrel, young 'un. You look like you-all b'long here. And tell the kids here 'bout the time, back in thirtynine, when young Wilbur Shaw took the race in that fancy-schmancy Eye-talian car a his.








Welcome back, ole fella.

You mean the event where my parents sat in the car owner Mike Boyle's personal box in turn 1 and went to the victory party in downtown Indy that night?

No I don't want to post here. Everybody knows what they are talking about here and I cannot crush or ridicule know nothing infidels here and send them off crying to the administrators. No fun at all...

I remember, at the time, being dumbfounded that Ongais survived the crash. Looking at the pictures once again, I am still dumbfounded that he managed to survive. What a nasty, violent crash! That he was exposed during most of it makes his survival just that much more remarkable.

As Buford clearly indicates, the bit between Bobby Unser and Mario Andretti is really a toss-up. The real problem is that it took 138 days to figure it out. More on that later.

Apparently, what happened is that after Unser and Andretti pitted under the yellow, on the 149th lap, when they rejoined the race, staying under the yellow line until they could merge into the field in the second turn -- matching the pace of the cars, Unser went ripping out of the pits and merged into line third behind the pace car. It is thought that he passed at least nine cars. Andretti initially left at the pits pretty much as Unser did -- at light speed, but backed off after seeing Unser passing so many cars. Andretti anticipated that Unser would either pulled in or penalized. However, Andretti had also passed several cars in his charge out of the pits, at least two and probably three, before he merged into the field.

In the end, the Appeals Board decided that Unser passed at least six more than Andretti on the 150th lap, but rescinded the one lap penalty and replaced it with a $40,000 fine. Although several of those who supported lifting the one lap penalty admitted that Unser gained a "significant advantage" by going so, they expressed doubts as to whether or not it really made a difference. The vote was 2-1, and the "1" -- Charlie Brockman -- was an unhappy camper.

The Board also looked at Andretti and by another 2-1 split vote said Andretti did not violate the merge rule. Looking at some of the information provided by Art Graham, the director of scoring & timing for USAC, it seems that Unser passed eight cars: Brabham, Lazier, Firstone, Cogan, Bettenhausen, Dickson, Alsup, and Krisloff for those curious about such things. Apparently, Edward Binns, the attorney for Penske/Unser, really, really pissed people off and hammered everyone he examined or cross-examined that didn't get with the program -- and he also took pot shot at the board members! A good part of the theatre which surrounded the endless hearings and pondering was that Penske brought in Len Kuchler from NASCAR (!) about imposing penalties during a race. You can imagine the USAC reaction.

What was bad about all this that the process started on the morning after the "official results" were posted and ground on until 138 days after the race there was finally an Official "official result" for first place.

However, Unser may have been correct when he charged at one point that the whole thing was a conspiracy by USAC to drive a wedge between Penske and Patrick and undermine CART.

Perhaps they should just given the trophy to Vern Schuppan.....

If you ask me, the whole deal was completely blown out of proportion, and with the insights of Buford and Don, yep they were.

I don't know if anyone watched the 1981 Indy 500 special last May, but in the end, it seems Mario didn't care and all he wanted was to clear up if this rule was actually a rule. ABC TV whom transmitted the race back then, made a big pissing contest out of it, and that's where it all blew.

And yes, Danny Ongais's crash was so destructive, he should've died, but by some miracle, he managed to survive. Unbelievable that he managed to, at all.

What relationship does a monetary penalty have to a time penalty?

I'm totally against that kind of ruling, $40,000 is no kind of penalty to an Indy winner! And it's certainly not going to send any messages about keeping to the rules to anyone...

If someone gained an advantage by doing something wrong, then they should lose that advantage and probably more. What would a stop-go penalty have done for him?

Monetary penalties only pander to wealthier teams and drivers. They can break the bank for those on the borderline between racing and missing the next event, but do nothing for those who have the spare cash... it could, in fact, lead to teams buying race wins.

I'd just like to say welcome back Buford, your insight and wit have been sorely missed here.

Originally posted by Buford
Mario let Bobby go and relied on the officials to make it right.

Given what had happened in 1963, which Mario must have known about, surely this was a huge mistake?

And the Indy officials' record since on controversial calls re the race winner (Goodyear passing dilatory pace car, Tony George deciding that an appeal should not succeed because he is a jerkass) is not the greatest.

Slyder,

I did watch the re-run of the 1981 race - where they were interviewing Unser and Andretti during the breaks. It seemed to me that there was still a bit of genuine contemptuousness from Unser towards Andretti. When things got down to who did what, when, there was still that fighting for the lead and the rulebook some 22 years later... Though I don't think the ruling nor the debate that followed was blown out of proportion, it was a real deal that should have favored Andretti.

I thought that Andretti carried the argument and himself quite well... and remained the outstanding character in the debate. Still, two wrongs don't make a right - but what was he supposed to do - let Unser grab another 3 spots on him? He thought that USAC would rule in his favor - if anyone would have or should have been on the bitter side of the exchange 20+ years later, I would have thought it would have been Mario.

Good analysis by Don and 'ol whats his ****, Buford...

Originally posted by Buford
You mean the event where my parents sat in the car owner Mike Boyle's personal box in turn 1 and went to the victory party in downtown Indy that night?

No I don't want to post here. Everybody knows what they are talking about here and I cannot crush or ridicule know nothing infidels here and send them off crying to the administrators. No fun at all...

Now there's another story that sorely needs telling...

Too bad if you don't want to post here, you're tagged and you're it!

And can't you just relax knowing the infidels don't venture in?

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Now there's another story that sorely needs telling...

Too bad if you don't want to post here, you're tagged and you're it!

And can't you just relax knowing the infidels don't venture in?

No - I want to crush infidels. No fun being superior unless you can lord it over peons and serfs.

Originally posted by Don Capps
However, Unser may have been correct when he charged at one point that the whole thing was a conspiracy by USAC to drive a wedge between Penske and Patrick and undermine CART.

He reiterated that exact same point in "Winners are Driven" this year.

Originally posted by theunions


He reiterated that exact same point in "Winners are Driven" this year.

Well they failed if that was true. It took a drug burnout and the tobacco and engine companies to finally do the deed and racing sure is better off for it... isn't it?

Originally posted by Buford


Well they failed if that was true. It took a drug burnout and the tobacco and engine companies to finally do the deed and racing sure is better off for it... isn't it?

Yeah, unwittingly, or at worst, wittingly, they created a NASCAR type (theater-racing) series where the cars are so close that the possibility looms on every straight and every corner where "rubin's racin" comes into play... 'cept them cars ain't got no fenders to rub on. A lethal combination.

oops, we're agreeing already - sorry...

Yes there is too much agreement on this forum. Too many knowledgeable people. Too much factual historical content. Not nearly enough turmoil, strife, revoluntionary rhetoric, and most of all, not anywhere near enough dead burnt babies.

Originally posted by Buford
Yes there is too much agreement on this forum. Too many knowledgeable people. Too much factual historical content. Not nearly enough turmoil, strife, revoluntionary rhetoric, and most of all, not anywhere near enough dead burnt babies.

Bollocks!!

Anyway I bet people at Indy were patting themselves on their respective backs after On-the-gas survived that accident, only to be rudely awakened the next year by Smileys mother of all accidents.

Originally posted by Buford
Yes there is too much agreement on this forum.

No there isn't.

Originally posted by Buford
Too many knowledgeable people.

True

Originally posted by Buford
Too much factual historical content.

True

Originally posted by Buford
Not nearly enough turmoil, strife, revoluntionary rhetoric,

You haven't read some of Roger's anti-monarchy posts have you?

Originally posted by Buford
and most of all, not anywhere near enough dead burnt babies.

True. Or hooters .....

Yeah - or Hooters!!! How could I forget.

Yes - the next year we saw the Gordon Smiley crash and it once again pointed out how lucky Ongais was. The only ones I can think of similar where the driver lived was Donnely in F1 and Stan Fox at Indy. Fox lived but was never right in the head after that and now has died. I don't know how bad Donnely was but I guess he got OK. Then there was Krossnoff but he never moved after the car came down.

Originally posted by petefenelon
I'd just like to say welcome back Buford, your insight and wit have been sorely missed here.

Add me to this list!

Originally posted by rdrcr
Slyder,

I did watch the re-run of the 1981 race - where they were interviewing Unser and Andretti during the breaks. It seemed to me that there was still a bit of genuine contemptuousness from Unser towards Andretti....

Well of course. I thought everyone knew that Bobby Unser is always right and everyone else is always wrong .;)

Originally posted by Buford
You mean the event where my parents sat in the car owner Mike Boyle's personal box in turn 1 and went to the victory party in downtown Indy that night?

No I don't want to post here. Everybody knows what they are talking about here and I cannot crush or ridicule know nothing infidels here and send them off crying to the administrators. No fun at all...

Wow.

And I was just kidding ..... guess that'll teach me to keep mah smart mouf SHUT around Buford.

Originally posted by Buford
No I don't want to post here. Everybody knows what they are talking about here and I cannot crush or ridicule know nothing infidels here and send them off crying to the administrators. No fun at all...

  Sorry, Buford, but it looks like you're back...by popular demand.

Originally posted by Buford
Yes there is too much agreement on this forum. Too many knowledgeable people. Too much factual historical content. Not nearly enough turmoil, strife, revoluntionary rhetoric, and most of all, not anywhere near enough dead burnt babies.

Well, Buford, maybe I could step out of my historical type guy role and restart the debate over Jeff Gordon's sexuality

Or, why John Bickford (some schlub from Sacto) had so much pull...supreme con-man?...what?, why exactly was he able to pull so many strings?

Welcome back!.


Jim Thurman

I'm not back. I am just slumming until something better amuses me temporarily.

Originally posted by ensign14
Given what had happened in 1963....And the Indy officials' record since on controversial calls re the race winner (Goodyear passing dilatory pace car, Tony George deciding that an appeal should not succeed because he is a jerkass) is not the greatest.

  Let's not forget 1966, or 1911. I know that he's come in for a lot of criticism on TNF, but I recently re-read Russ Catlin's article Who Really Won The First Indy 500?, from AQ, vol.7, no.4. Catlin didn't give an explicit answer, but presented evidence that indicates it might have been Mulford, rather than Harroun. It's a nice piece of historical writing.

Mike

Russ Catlin could do excellent work went the clock allowed him. Remember, like most of his contemporaries he was a newspaperman first, last, and always which meant that getting something in print that was reasonably close was Good Enough. Rarely did they have the opportunities to get into the depth they were capable of delving into. Catlin's AQ article is clear evidence that he was a first rate Scribe if allowed to be.

You know Buford... I just can't help but mention that you should really get those photographs out of the Garage... Unless it's air-conditioned, the Vegas heat (or cold, as the case maybe) can't be doing them any good. Or were you just exaggerating over there in the PC?

I think that some sort of endowment to the IMRRC would certainly be appreciated and they could take care of them properly until you decide what to do with them all.

Oh - those are racing photos not Hooter pics folks. Buford's dad was everywhere at Indy (amongst other places I'm told) with a camera.

BTW, How is the old boy? He just turned 90 right? God bless him.... and tell him I said hello.

Originally posted by rdrcr
You know Buford... I just can't help but mention that you should really get those photographs out of the Garage... Unless it's air-conditioned, the Vegas heat (or cold, as the case maybe) can't be doing them any good. Or were you just exaggerating over there in the PC?

I think that some sort of endowment to the IMRRC would certainly be appreciated and they could take care of them properly until you decide what to do with them all.

Oh - those are racing photos not Hooter pics folks. Buford's dad was everywhere at Indy (amongst other places I'm told) with a camera.

BTW, How is the old boy? He just turned 90 right? God bless him.... and tell him I said hello.

Who me, exaggerating? I never exaggerate when I am being serious. Only for comedic purposes when I am not being serious. I rely on my reader to figure out which is which and hope I am skillful enough to make it clear.

No I have exactly what I say I have. In fact, I brought a bunch of the albums down to the Peterson the time we met but nobody had time to look at them. Most of the stuff from 1939 through the early 1980s are in albums and are inside my house. The stuff in the garage is primarily the stuff from my own racing career, and all the pictures from the early 1980s through early 1990s. Plus all the negatives and none of that stuff was ever sorted out. I only did it when I was a kid, and during times of unemployment. So I never got to the last decade of the collection.

You are right about the heat and cold factors I suppose. But most of the good stuff is in the house. I am trying to make a living and have fun at the same time so I have no time for that now. And since arriving on the internet, my opinion of racing fans has hit rock bottom so I feel like why should I do anything for that bunch of clowns? (Present forum members excepted of course).

My father will be 91 in March and my mother will be 90 in February. They both still drive themselves around and both are still totally in the game.

When I said "exaggerating" I was referring to the statement that you had left them in the garage - not that you had them at all... hell, I've seen a couple of those albums as you know - We checked some of them out at the table remember?

Anyway, good to hear that the majority of them are inside... I thought that they were of the 'really' early days - you're not that old... Ones that your dad took at Indy and other tracks. He gave many away to the subjects right? Good to read you still have the negatives.

It was just a thought - often, such collections disappear without a trace - just trying to do my part...

Great to hear that they're doing well - at least you have inherited good genes for longevity - more time to take tittie shots for another 40 years at least!

BTW, I wasn't speaking of that I-net bunch around the corner... I was speaking of historians and researchers that could really make use of those photos as historical records!

Originally posted by rdrcr
When I said "exaggerating" I was referring to the statement that you had left them in the garage - not that you had them at all... hell, I've seen a couple of those albums as you know - We checked some of them out at the table remember?

Anyway, good to hear that the majority of them are inside... I thought that they were of the 'really' early days - you're not that old... Ones that your dad took at Indy and other tracks. He gave many away to the subjects right? Good to read you still have the negatives.

It was just a thought - often, such collections disappear without a trace - just trying to do my part...

Did we look at any at the table? I had forgotten that. I do have a hundred boxes in my garage on shelves and that is all my life stuff I carry around from place to place. In there is a lot of racing stuff. But yeah I guess I was exaggerating if I said it was all out in the garage. Only the stuff I never got to is, and that is a lot.

It really starts in the 1950s. He does have a few from 1939 Indy Ray mentioned above. But it starts with some from his stock car teams and our Quarter Midget days in the 1950's. The "real" racing starts about 1959 when I whinned my way into having them take the family to our first road race at Meadowdale. There a whole new world opened up to us oval racers. Race cars could turn both ways! Our first year at Indy was 1961 and it is from there on we went nuts for about 30 years, shooting anything and everything. And since we went everywhere and knew everybody, we made quite a collection. The negatives were all thrown together and would take 100 years to figure out. But the photos are pretty well sorted out until sometime in the 1980s.

Originally posted by Buford


Did we look at any at the table? I had forgotten that. I do have a hundred boxes in my garage on shelves and that is all my life stuff I carry around from place to place. In there is a lot of racing stuff. But yeah I guess I was exaggerating if I said it was all out in the garage. Only the stuff I never got to is, and that is a lot.

Yeah, I remember looking at a couple of albums with mostly Sprinter and Midget stuff - I could only glance through them as we were constantly talking and checking out the crowd...

It really starts in the 1950s. He does have a few from 1939 Indy Ray mentioned above. But it starts with some from his stock car teams and our Quarter Midget days in the 1950's. The "real" racing starts about 1959 when I whinned my way into having them take the family to our first road race at Meadowdale. There a whole new world opened up to us oval racers. Race cars could turn both ways! Our first year at Indy was 1961 and it is from there on we went nuts for about 30 years, shooting anything and everything. And since we went everywhere and knew everybody, we made quite a collection. The negatives were all thrown together and would take 100 years to figure out. But the photos are pretty well sorted out until sometime in the 1980s. [/b]

Wouldn't it be cool to have that lot (the remaining photos and negatives) all sorted and catalogued? Which was precisely my point, the IMRRC has a staff that could help sort that stuff out with professional care and complete security with respect to your holdings. The decision of course is totally up to you and your old man, but I thought I should mention it. You could always call Mark Steigerwald, the Center's Reference Librarian to see about the logistics and benefits of being a donor some day.

I work 18 or more hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I am almost never away from the computer unless I am on the road to a festival or party or beach where I "work". I am in a very competitive business where it doesn't make squat difference if you are the best. What makes a difference is how well you toot your own horn. I have been very poor at that and I now have had to come out of the fog. I have a hundred things going on at all times. Every single day there are 30 things I do not get to that need to be done and the following day adds more. I have not done the accounting in 5 months and people all over the world are screaming at me every day. As pathetic as it sounds, posting here is kind of my break time from constant stress and activities and being hassled by idiots. Getting filthy rich is not as easy as it used to be. I simply do not have time to mess with it.

The Ongais crash was horrifying. We were up high in the short chute that year. I didn't see the back end get loose, but I did see from the (over) correction on. The car came to rest directly in front of us. I was sure he was dead, we all were. Then his head snapped back and slumped back down again and we knew he was alive for the moment. Needless to say the fun of the day was gone. What a beautiful car it was too, a shame it never recieved the Porsche engine it was designed for while we're on the subject of Indy Politics.

Yeah that really was a beautiful car. Fox came to rest right below us at turn 2 in a similar wreck with his body totally exposed. He did not move at all and we also all thought he was dead. The fact that he had no physical injury at all was beyond belief. But it messed up his brain and he was loony for the rest of his life.

Danny Ongais' son Brian's daughter, Claire.

August, 2003

Frank...so what else has Brian been up to since his participation in the inaugural ARS season in 1986?

Originally posted by theunions
Frank...so what else has Brian been up to since his participation in the inaugural ARS season in 1986?

I'll have to ask.

As the son of the "Flyin Hawaiin" I expect its something to with Hula girls!!

Originally posted by ghinzani
As the son of the "Flyin Hawaiin" I expect its something to with Hula girls!!

Not when Danny himself hasn't been back to the Islands in 30+years, it wouldn't.

Originally posted by rdrcr
.....the IMRRC has a staff that could help sort that stuff out with professional care and complete security with respect to your holdings. The decision of course is totally up to you and your old man, but I thought I should mention it. You could always call Mark Steigerwald, the Center's Reference Librarian to see about the logistics and benefits of being a donor some day.

There you are, no excuses...

Your dad might enjoy helping do the rough sorting so you can pack the stuff off to Watkins Glen... maybe you'll get a chance for another man-to-man...

No time man. I owe the racing world nothing. It killed all my heroes and all my friends. Now I work for me and sorting racing pictures is not on the agenda.

Buford You're not turning into Mr bitter and twisted again are you?

Originally posted by Buford
No time man. I owe the racing world nothing. It killed all my heroes and all my friends. Now I work for me and sorting racing pictures is not on the agenda.

Got it. Sorta how I feel about the Army at times.

How about I drive out to Las Vegas and do it for you? No fuss, no bother, and I will ensure that it not only gets to the IMRRC safe & sound, but any stipulations you place on its use are honored.

Deal?

Originally posted by Buford
No time man. I owe the racing world nothing. It killed all my heroes and all my friends. Now I work for me and sorting racing pictures is not on the agenda.

Bullshit... I was going to write something else until I saw Don's post.

Take him up on his offer - otherwise it's a lame excuse.

Originally posted by Don Capps


Got it. Sorta how I feel about the Army at times.

How about I drive out to Las Vegas and do it for you? No fuss, no bother, and I will ensure that it not only gets to the IMRRC safe & sound, but any stipulations you place on its use are honored.

Deal?

Absolutely. That is the solution.

Very cool... you won't regret it!

Originally posted by Buford


Absolutely. That is the solution.

He can stay here for free and take whatever time he needs to go through all the boxes and can talk to my old man about what they want to do with it.

I will figure out the arrangements and let you know ASAP.

Originally posted by Don Capps
I will figure out the arrangements and let you know ASAP.

OK but it has to happen at some point when I am not going nuts and the window of opportunities for that are few and far between.