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Behind the Iron Curtain

Started by anjakub , Jul 09 2004 17:45

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43 replies to this topic

#1 anjakub

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 17:45

It is a less known history of motorsport from socialist countries.
Surely there will be hard task for people from western Europe and other overseas countries. Mayby not...

1. The best

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2. Guest from islands

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3. The winner

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4. Specially for Alexey

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5. On the grid

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6. One and two

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7. First time

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8. I know where and when but who and what

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9. Speed and strange

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10. Good old time

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#2 Frank de Jong

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 18:18

Great pictures! I'm no expert but I'll try to get the ball rolling. The first one looks a Melkus to me (Heinz himself maybe?); the second one is a Brabham...

#3 Cirrus

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 18:24

I fear that I'm going to be able to contribute little as far as the answers go.

What fantastic pictures, though - I love 1 Litre F3 cars, and pictures 2 and 3 are very evocative. Is picture 1 of an F3 car also? I originally thought that the F3 pictures may have been from the DDR, but for 1969 and 1970, when I assume picture 2 was taken, the number 101 seems to have been reserved for the exclusive use of Ulli Melkus in his Melkus Wartburg.

Anyway, if this quiz ever gets solved, I'd love to see more pictures like these.

As for that 5-4-5 starting grid...........

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 21:20

I'll hazard a guess that #8 is a ZIL, but otherwise I'm pretty stumped!

#5 IMV

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Posted 09 July 2004 - 21:31

Originally posted by anjakub

1. The best

...is for sure personally Heinz Melkus, it looks to me like sometimes in 1971 - 72 (?), when I see inlet manifold with restrictor behind his head...

3. The winner

... a nice picture of Ing.Vladislav Ondøejík (CS) in his Lotus 41C Cosworth after his win on Szczecin circuit 29.6.1969. Thank you for posting of this snap, because I am the owner of remains of this car after its heavy crash on Štramberk 1970 race. Is it possible to have it in higher resolution ? Thanks.

#6 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 07:27

Let's talk about # 9, looks a little bit like a 1938 AU streamliner, didn't we discuss this car here on TNF before?

#7 Frank de Jong

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 09:06

Picture 4: two Polski Fiat's ans a Skoda, looking at the Skoda I'd say 1972.

#8 IMV

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 11:14

Picture #2 - can it be Alan Stubbs, 2nd place in Szczecin 28.6.1970, Brabham BT28 ?

Michal

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 11:21

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Let's talk about # 9, looks a little bit like a 1938 AU streamliner, didn't we discuss this car here on TNF before?

I'm guessing it's one of the Zvezda record cars, but I'm probably wrong ....

I'd tend to agree with Frank re the date on the Skoda: looks like a 120S Rallye, which I think was introduced in 1972. But I couldn't decide if the others were Polskis or Ladas - was there much difference in those days?

#10 Frank de Jong

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 12:43

The Polski Fiat was based on the Fiat 125 - instead of the twincam engine they used the Fiat 1500 OHV engine.
The Lada was based on the Fiat 124.

#11 IMV

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Posted 10 July 2004 - 13:14

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
Picture 4: two Polski Fiat's ans a Skoda, looking at the Skoda I'd say 1972.

Škoda 120S cars were as factory cars used in CPF during 1972-4. Polski Fiat cars were enough competitive only in 1974 season, when then came with engine 1600ccm and 5-speed gearbox from Fiat 132. According start numbers are 21 - Jaroslav Bobek, 5 - Robert Mucha, other Fiat - Andrzej Jaroszewicz and the picture is probably from Minsk.

Michal

#12 IMV

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 09:13

Re. picture#3 : the winner on the track
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#13 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 18:50

Andrzej, thank you very much for your 'East European X-Pics'! I'll try to identify some of them...

Picture #4 (specially for me :-) ) is taken at Borovaya track, nr Minsk. Possibly it is the 1974 event, as in 1973, the front row was occupied by two Ladas & two Škodas, and in 1975, there were three Škodas and one Lada in the front row.

The car on the image #9 is the gas-turbined Pioner 2M designed by Ilya Tikhomirov, the engineer from Moscow. It was the modified Kharkov L1 record car, which was a diminished copy of a pre-war Auto Union - Holger, your feeling for any Auto Union traces in motorsport history hasn't let you down again ;) There were 13 speed records set by Pioner in 1961-72, including the absloute USSR speed record, 311.419 km/h (set on September 1, 1963 on Baskunchak salt lake). Pioner was discussed on TNF earlier - see this thread.

Unfortunately I cannot identify the car #8. There were many sportscars built in the USSR in the late 50s and the early 60s by amateur drivers. Most of there sportscars didn't have any name and thus still remain a very dark chapter of Soviet motosport. I only guess that the photo is taken at Minsk highway, nr Moscow - three letters 'ÏÎÂ' on the road sign are definitely the first letters of the word 'ÏÎÂÎÐÎÒ' ('turning', 'bend'), and such road signs were installed in the places where drivers should turn around them and go in the opposite direction. The last highway race in the USSR was held on May 15, 1960, and the photo must be taken by this date.

P.S. Can I continue this thread by posting a couple of new 'X-Pics' here so as to be identified?

#14 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 11 July 2004 - 19:04

Photo #6 - isn't it Jerzy Jankowski (see a crayfish on the driver's helmet)? But what car? A sportscars or even a record car? I have never heard of any other cars by Jankoswki than Rak and Krab single-seaters... :confused:

Photo #2 was definitely taken at Szczecin circuit, and the car really looks like a Brabham BT28...

#15 Holger Merten

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 06:51

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
[B]

The car on the image #9 is the gas-turbined Pioner 2M designed by Ilya Tikhomirov, the engineer from Moscow. It was the modified Kharkov L1 record car, which was a diminished copy of a pre-war Auto Union - Holger, your feeling for any Auto Union traces in motorsport history hasn't let you down again ;) There were 13 speed records set by Pioner in 1961-72, including the absloute USSR speed record, 311.419 km/h (set on September 1, 1963 on Baskunchak salt lake). Pioner was discussed on TNF earlier - see this thread.

Thanks Alexey for your ncie comment. :blush:

I think it's an interesting piece of history to find out moreabout, which record cars in Russia depend to the AU ideas.

#16 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 08:17

OK, I'll try to find more...

#17 Holger Merten

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 09:14

That would be great, please open a new thread. :clap:

I think Brun and I could help with some of our investigations.

#18 Brun

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 09:23

Cool thread!

Picture #1 is Heinz Melkus in his own racecar.

#19 IMV

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 16:40

Let´s go in colour : Heinz Melkus during his way to win in CPF round in Brno, 25.7.1965
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Michal

#20 anjakub

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 16:46

Good work, fellows :clap:

We have answer to seven questions:
1. Heinz Melkus (Melkus-Wartburg) Szczecin 1970
2. Alan Stubbs (Brabham-Cosworth BT28) Szczecin 1970
3. Vladislav Ondrejik (Lotus-Cosworth 41C) Szczecin 1969
4. Round of the Cup of Peace and Friendship in Minsk, track Borovaya, year 1974: Polski Fiat 125p (#1) Andrzej Jaroszewicz, Polski Fiat 125p (#5) Robert Mucha, Skoda 120S (#21) Jaroslav Bobek
6. Rak 1300 with two bike engines Triumph 650 from year 1961. This sportscar won three round of Polish racing championship – 1961 Opole and Czestochowa (Jerzy Jankowski), 1962 Kraków (Wladyslaw Paszkowski). On photo in car Jerzy Jankowski (crayfish on driver’s helmet). Alexey :up:

8. On the back of photo is only inscription: May 1959, Minsk highway, sportcars race for 500 km (10 laps x 50 km)
9. Land speed record car Pioneer-2 M (I have it - in scale 1/43)

#21 anjakub

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 16:56

Originally posted by IMV
Is it possible to have it in higher resolution ?

Of course. I have few photos from Szczecin's races 1969 and 1970 with Ondrejik, Hubacek and Bobek, but I don't know your e-mail. Moreover I'm looking for the all winners of the Cena Prachovskych Skal. Pozdrav pro loupeznika z lesa Raholce.

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Can I continue this thread by posting a couple of new 'X-Pics' here so as to be identified?

I'm waiting...

#22 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 18:35

Originally posted by anjakub
6. On photo in car Jerzy Jankowski (crayfish on driver’s helmet). Alexey

And what about items #5, 7, and 10? It seems to me photo #5 was taken on an airfield - were there any airfield races in Eastern Europe in the 60s? Photo #7 - did you mean by 'The First Time' that it was the first time when the driver from Eastern Europe tested a F1 car? Year 1977 or 1978, I guess. And photo #10 roused my curiosity very much! Do you have any information on it?

#23 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 19:00

Now, it is my turn to propose some riddles...

1. No, not 300SLR...
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2. A dragster in the Soviet Union??
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3. Who, what, when, where? (I don't think it's a difficult task...)
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4. Who, what, when, where? (this time it is a bit more difficult...)
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5. Who, what, when, where (very arduous task, isn't it?

)

#24 anjakub

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 19:28

1. No, not 300SLR... but MAZ 1500 (1959)
3. Yuri Andreev - Estonia 9-Ford De Sanctis
5. First car probably GA-22 with V. Schakhverdov

#25 anjakub

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 06:29

Supplement:
5. V. Shakhverdov (GA-22) and M. Kovalev (GM-20) in Grand Prix Kalev - Tallin 1959.

2. Dragster which is to say speed land record car from Khadi research institute (???)

#26 st59cz

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 08:58

Dragster almost certainly from CHADI.

#27 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 09:08

Originally posted by anjakub
3. Yuri Andreev - Estonia 9-Ford De Sanctis

Sorry, Andrzej, I haven't understood whether you mean Estonia 9 Ford or de Sanctis Ford...

#28 anjakub

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 16:41

Sorry, Alexey, simply missing or
3. Yuri Andreev - Estonia 9-Ford or De Sanctis...
Now, for me it is Estonia.

#29 anjakub

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 17:15

The answers to my till now not solve questions:

5. The first round of the Cup for Peace and Friendship in 1965. Babice airfield in Warsaw, 6 June 1965, start 27 cars, winner Heinz Melkus (#81)

7. The first Polish driver in Formula 1 car – Andrzej Jaroszewicz, son of the Prime Minister and good friend of Walter Wolf. He drove Wolf WR beside the International Fair Race in Poznan on 17 June 1979.

10. The 3rd round of Polish racing championship 1958 – Warszawa, 28 September 1958. On photo class 1600: #41 Konstanty Krajewski (SAM-Flash 1300) – winner, #22 Edward Wroclawski (SAM-Lancia 1500) – retired, #47 Aleksander Mazurek (SAM-Flash 1300) – 3. place. The car number 47 was known as “submarine”.
In late 50’s in Poland took part in races only SAM’s. SAM = self-build (eng), eigenbau (ger).

#30 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 08:59

Originally posted by anjakub
7. The first Polish driver in Formula 1 car – Andrzej Jaroszewicz, son of the Prime Minister and good friend of Walter Wolf. He drove Wolf WR beside the International Fair Race in Poznan on 17 June 1979.

Was Jaroszewicz also the very first East European driver who tested a F1 car?

#31 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 12:03

Surely, Alexey, that depends on what your view is of what is and is not F1? As far as most of us pedants here are concerned, the answer has to be "no", since the 1949 Czechoslovak GP was held to the then-current F1 regulations and several local drivers took part. You could, of course, restrict yourself to the "Championship era", but then you have to ignore the 1950 Czechoslovak GP as well ....

#32 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 12:48

Oh, I completely forgot of Czechoslovak GP's... :cry:

Anjakub, st59cz: the dragster (photo #2) is not from KhADI! Try again...

#33 st59cz

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 16:09

Or was also car called Leningrad or alike :confused:

#34 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 08:59

1. MAZ 1500. The Moskvich-powered sportscar which was a copy of Mercedes Benz 300SLR in fact, designed by Vladimir Maiboroda in 1960. There were two MAZ sportscars built. They didn't gain much success in motor racing.

2. Leningrad D. This dragster didn't concern KhADI research institute in any way, but was designed by Alexandr Kapustin from Leningrad in 1969. In 1970, Yury Frolov set a speed record in 3000 cc class on 500m distance with dead start. St59cz :up:

3. Yury Andreev at the wheel of De Sanctis Cosworth in Szczecin 1969 CPF round. Andrzej, the Cosworth-powered Estonia 9F was driven by Andreev in 1968 only, and it didn't resemble De Sanctis...

4. Leo Mattila driving Lotus 20 in the 1961 Leningrad international race.

5. Valery Shakhverdov and Mikhail Kovalev, driving GA 22 and GM 20 respectively, at Pirita-Kose-Kloostrimetsa circuit in September 1959 during the I Kalev Trophy. Andrzej :clap:

#35 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 11:01

Number 3 is definitely a De Sanctis.
Double rounded air-outlet on the nose of the single-seater are unmistakable feature of the De Sanctis's.
Or... perhaps the designer of the Estonia drew inspirations from a De Sanctis...

#36 Rob29

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 18:02

I would like to see more photos of the Szczecin circuit if anyone has these.

#37 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 12:21

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
Or... perhaps the designer of the Estonia drew inspirations from a De Sanctis...

Of course not

I could post here some photos of Estonia 9, but I'm afraid... :lol:

#38 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 12:09

This photo is taken from Russian 'Avtomotosport' magazine. The comment upon it says it was a 'home-made' Polish single-seater powered by British Triumph TR2 engine. The photo was taken in Leningrad in 1961 (F. Libre race), and this car was driven by Polish driver Wrublewski. One of the 1961 issues of 'Za Rulem' magazine says this car to be Krab 750, designed by Jerzy Jankowski. That's all what I know on this car, so can anyone (a request to anjakub first of all) answer the following questions:

1. Was the name of this car Krab 750? Any other?

2. Was it designed by Jankowski?

3. Why 750?

4. I know that Polish driver Edward Wroclawski took part in Leningrad 1961 international race, being at the wheel of a Triumph TR3. I doubt that it was really TR3 - two Polish entries were said to be in F. Libre race, so I think both of them - Wrublewski and Wroclawski - were driving the Truimph-powered Krabs. Is it right?

#39 anjakub

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 20:26

Krab , as Rak, was designed by Jerzy Jankowski. First Krab was built in 1958 (debut on track in Lódz – 22 June 1958 with Longin Bielak behind steering wheel). The first car powered a motorbike engine Royal Meteor 700, later in Krabs, which produced three (for sure) or four cars (probably), used bike engines Triumph 650 and HRD 1000. In the beginnig of 60’s also Wartburg 900 (driver Józef Kielbania). That is why named by engines capacity – Krab 700, Krab 1000, Krab 900, but Krab 750 I don’t know. In 50’s in our racing championship these cars named Krab 75, Krab 76, Krab 77 by their permanent race numbers.

In Leningrad 1961 international race I have only five Polish drivers – three in Formula Junior (Jerzy Jankowski, Antoni Weiner, Wladys³aw Szulczewski) and two in Formula libre (Longin Bielak and Edward Wroclawski). Beside Wroclawski is mentioned Triumph TR3. Perhaps it is SAM-Triumph. Car on your photo remind SAM-Triumph, which later was used by Henryk Nowak (1962 and 1963).
Name Wrublewski (Andrzej Wróblewski) appear in Polish racing not before 1964.

The first Krab with Longin Bielak. Remaining cars look like this:

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#40 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 14:39

Andrzej, thank you very much for the info! So I'm going to correct the results of F. Libre Leningrad race as follows:

...
DNF Edward Wroclawski (POL) ASK Triumph 6 laps

I'd rather use the ASK abbreviation than SAM as both of them mean the same, namely: the car built by oneself.

#41 anjakub

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 17:40

Alexey, I suggest to keep original national names. SAM for Polish, Eigenbau for German, ASK for Russian and so on.

#42 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 18:08

Errr... you're right. I have kept 'Küther Eigenbau' on my pages, so why shouldn't I keep 'SAM'?

But could you please tell me the meaning of this abbreviation?

#43 anjakub

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Posted 27 October 2004 - 08:37

Abbreviation SAM is from "samodzielnie zbudowany" (built by oneself). So as Russian "samodielka".

#44 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:31

This photo is from the 1961 Leningrad international F. Junior race - two single-seaters of the Polish team. No. 7 is Jerzy Jankowski's Rak 61. What is the car no. 9?

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