The cult of chassis numbers (merged)

Around 1975, DSJ started a series to record chassis numbers as a way of having pity on the poor historian.

Is there anyone still doing this for contemporary series? And not just F1?

Here is what I have pieced together for Roush Racing this season as an example.

Event		 Martin	Biffle	Kenseth	Busch	Burton

*Bud Shootout	JR-101				

*Gatorade 125s	JR-100		MMR-22	JR-55	JR-37

Daytona 500	JR-101	MMR-28	MMR-22	JR-55	JR-37

Rockingham	JR-95	JR-008		JR-38	JR-36

Las Vegas	JR-88	JR-006	MMR-20	JR-52	JR-46

Atlanta 	JR-95	JR-010	MMR-27		JR-44

Darlington	JR-95	JR-008			JR-36

Bristol			JR-98	JR-004	MMR-10	JR-46	JR-41

Fort Worth	JR-97	JR-010	MMR-27	JR-41	JR-49

Talladega	JR-100	MMR-28		JR-55	JR-33

Martinsville	JR-99	JR-001	MMR-22		JR-48

Fontana			JR-102	JR-011	MMR-20	JR-54	JR-49

Richmond	JR-97	JR-001	MMR-23	JR-56	JR-48

*Charlotte	JR-102	JR-003		JR-40	JR-45

Charlotte 600	JR-95	JR-010	MMR-19	JR-38	JR-45

Dover					JR-004		JR-34	

Pocono			JR-98	JR-003	MMR-27	JR-38	JR-46

Michigan	JR-98	JR-011	MMR-15	JR-54	JR-49

Sears Point	RRC-103	JR-013	MMR-30		JR-51

Daytona		   RRC-101	MMR-28	MMR-22		JR-37

Chicagoland	JR-010	MMR-19	JR-58	JR-46

New Hampshire	RRC-97	JR-001		JR-56	

Pocono		  RRC-98	JR-003	MMR-27		JR-46

Indianapolis		JR-012	MMR-20	JR-54	JR-52

Originally posted by Don Capps
Is there anyone still doing this for contemporary series? And not just F1?

Here is what I have pieced together for Roush Racing this season as an example.

This is by far the most comprehensive analysis I've seen for ANY team covering ANY span of time in modern day Winston Cup.

May I ask where you got this level of info?

And I have the complete record for Joe Gibbs Racing. Where did I get? Trolling the team web sites and checking the track notes for the upcoming races or race recaps. JGR does a superb job. I happened to think about doing this when I found this sort information while -- naturally -- looking for something else. I just began to actually put some effort into this just in the last few weeks. The NASCAR teams generally have such records, but simply sock it away on the shelf apparently.

While our gaze is often to the rear, perhaps we should make an effort to record more of the present so there won't be as many gaps as we keep finding now as we sift through the fossils of the past.

Originally posted by Don Capps
While our gaze is often to the rear, perhaps we should make an effort to record more of the present so there won't be as many gaps as we keep finding now as we sift through the fossils of the past.

That's precisely why I save as much minute and arcane info about modern-day racing as it actually happens and bring home tons of paperwork from each race I cover in person, rather than make the effort much more painful 20-odd years from now.

Originally posted by theunions
That's precisely why I save as much minute and arcane info about modern-day racing as it actually happens and bring home tons of paperwork from each race I cover in person, rather than make the effort much more painful 20-odd years from now.

Once, in another life, I was talking to my immediate superior in an office job. Justin Arthur O'Brien his name was, I have no doubt he's well and truly dead by now...

I was talking about taking photos that recorded family events and trips and so on... and he cut me short.

"What do you get? Just some photos for your kids to toss out when you die..."

Your tons of paperwork should have a home where they are appreciated by more than just yourself. This has been a constant problem for researchers... arriving on the doorstep the day after the dumpster was taken away.

Whats amuses and amazes me about NASCAR is the 'human touch' of how of the 14 chassis a team may have for a driver, they have personalities and quirks; and seem to last for years.

It's the recording of present day results for future nostalgia that drives most of my site. It keeps me very busy during the racing season, I can tell you!

Originally posted by Don Capps
Around 1975, DSJ started a series to record chassis numbers as a way of having pity on the poor historian.

Don

DSJ had been recording chassis numbers regularly since about 1966 or 1967 I think. And he had made mention of chassis numbers in seasons before that. The 'Before We Lose Track' series of articles was an attempt to describe the actual life of a racing car: its races and its owners and its many different monocoques. Those articles, and his work in general, were one of the direct inspirations for my own research which began in 1978.

Allen

As has been known for some time, DSJ apparently began collecting such detailed car information virtually from the moment he began writing and roaming The Continent.

At some point by the middle of the 1960's, chassis numbers started seeping into the GP reports as something other than a novelty and the DSJ reports were no different in this respect, the numbers usually popping up in the practice times or starting grid lineup as well in the notes on the cars. Even the pedestrian Autocar and Motor dropped chassis numbers into their reports during this period.

I think one point that I really want to bring up is that this is an outstanding way for the "younger generation" of TNF to make a real difference. By finding, organizing, and recording information TODAY they will make their lives easier in the future and have some pity on those poor future historians.

If there is anything that I could encourage folks to do, it would be to pick a series or two and do as good a job as possible soaking up all the contemporary information on that series as possible. That means books, magazines, downloading material or whatever is necessary. And not everyone pick F1! But at the same time, don't make any assumptions about a series either.

2003 Joe Gibbs Racing Chassis Numbers

The primary and backup car for No. 18 Bobby Labonte and No. 20 Tony Stewart for the 2003 season thus far:

Labonte/Backup	Stewart/Backup	Date/Event

		73		8 February/*Bud Shootout

69	82	70	73	13 February/*Gatorade 125s

69	82	70	73	16 February/Daytona 500

66	62	65	68	23 February/Rockingham

74	62	49	75	2 March/Las Vegas

76	74	61	54	9 March/Atlanta 

66	74	65	68	16 March/Darlington

71	62	68	75	23 March/Bristol

76	74	75	*54 	30 March/Fort Worth

69	82	70	73	6 April/Talladega

64	52	63	67	13 April/Martinsville

74	62	77	61	27 April/Fontana

64	52	63	67	3 May/Richmond

62	74	75	61	17 May/*Charlotte

76	74	77	61	25 May/Charlotte 600

71	66	77	65	1 June/Dover

62	52	83	49	8 June/Pocono

78	74	77	61	15 June/Michigan

80	86	48	79	22 June/Sears Point

69	72	70	73	5 July/Daytona

76	74	83	61	13 July/Chicagoland

64	62	44	67	20 July/New Hampshire

74	62	83	49	27 July/Pocono

85	78	77	49	3 August/Indianapolis

* Failed to pass inspection

5 July/ Daytona: Bliss
Primary – JGR 82
Backup – JGR 81

Interesting to see the different venues the same chassis is raced at -- also that Stewart's infamous inpounded Texas car was entered earlier that month at Atlanta.

One of my first books which i was just reading a month ago was the 1981 Autocourse -- the opening sentence to the chassis logbook apologizes for missing information due to DSJ's notes being stolen at Monza! The first team listed is Alfa Romeo, with comment "impossible to record, with or without notes......."

Well done Don

Now, what happens (or has happened), when the cars are passed on down through ARCA, Western series or the old Sportsman series I don't envy someone trying to track late 80's/early 90's Cup cars. Though, much to the credit of the broadcast team, announcer Eli Gold would often mention the pedigree of the cars in the Sportsman class during their telecasts (I wonder if Greg Fielden had a hand in that?...I know he does statistical work for telecasts).

But, good luck finding a tape of a 1991 Sportsman race now!

And Earl, way to go on the notes


Jim Thurman

Pity the poor historian....

A series or two Don? More like a series or 50 in my case, and I'm still not happy with everything I'm doing. If anyone wants to contribute though......

2003 Richard Childress Racing

Chassis Numbers

Chevrolet Monte Carlo





Harvick	No. 30	Gordon	Date/ Event

			8 February *Bud Shootout

81	91	94	13 February *Gatorade 125s

81	91	94	16 February Daytona 500

			23 February Rockingham

88		103	2 March Las Vegas

	92		9 March Atlanta 

		99	16 March	Darlington

			23 March	Bristol

	78		30 March	Fort Worth

81	91		6 April	Talladega

110			13 April Martinsville

	78 		27 April Fontana

111		99	3 May	Richmond

	78	99	17 May	*Charlotte Winston

	78	99	25 May	Charlotte 600

111		82	1 June	Dover

110	92	99	8 June	Pocono

		103	15 June	Michigan

67	50	117	22 June	Sears Point

	91	94	5 July	Daytona

110	92	82	13 July	Chicagoland

111	114	99	20 July	New Hampshire

110	118	82	27 July	Pocono

88	78	103	3 August Indianapolis

67	98	117	10 August Watkins Glen

Lots more gaps with RCR, but then again I haven't pushed the envelope as hard, I was just trying to get something started.

here are some random notes that might be helpful:

Chassis Number Notebook for NASCAR Grand National and Winston Cup Series



1965



Holman & Moody

Ford Galaxie 500

Chassis CSHM10047 “H&M 47”

1965 Daytona 500 – Fred Lorenzen, 1st

also used at Riverside, Atlanta, North Wilkesboro, Martinsville, and Charlotte

reskinned as 1966 Galaxie 500

to ARCA in 1967



1993



Robert Yates Racing

Chassis ‘012’ – first used August 1992, Davey Allison – Richmond/March, New Hampshire; 

Ernie Irvan – Richmond/ September





1994



SABCO Racing

Chassis ‘SA-69’ – Pontiac Grand Prix, Kyle Petty



1998



Robert Yates Racing

Chassis ‘012’ – Darlington/March, Dale Jarrett 





1999



Robert Yates Racing

Chassis ‘35’ – Dale Jarrett, Daytona 500 1st



Ricard Childress Racing

Chassis ‘50’ – Sears Point and Watkins Glen 





2000



MBV Motorsports

Chassis ‘4518’ – Talladega (Spring), Daytona 400



Kranefuss Racing

Chassis ’10 – Jeremy Mayfield, Kansas 



Jack Roush Racing

Chassis ‘JR-22’ – Kenseth, New Hampshire/July





2001



Ricard Childress Racing

Chassis ’67 – Robby Gordon, Watkins Glen 

Chassis ‘78’ – No. 31 Michigan and Chicago



MBV Motorsports

Chassis ‘4518’ – Pontiac (Tyler Jet) Johnny Benson, Daytona 500, Daytona 400





2002



PPI Racing

Ford Taurus

Chassis ‘32’ – Ricky Craven, Rockingham/February



Robert Yates Racing

Chassis ‘28’ – Ricky Rudd, Martinsville/Goody’s 500



Ricard Childress Racing

Chassis ‘50’ – Sonoma fifth, Watkins Glen

Chassis ‘67’ – Sonoma and Watkins Glen

Chassis ‘78’ – Green, Michigan/August 

Chassis ‘82’ – Robby Gordon Chicago

Chassis ‘83’ – Green, Fontana 11th

Chassis ‘88’ – Kevin Harvick Chicago and Indianapolis 

Chassis ‘91’ – Daytona 400 and Talladega (Fall)

Chassis ‘92’ – Winston Open, Charlotte 600, Michigan (June) 18th place

Chassis ‘94’ – Robby Gordon Daytona 400



Jack Roush Racing

Chassis ‘JR-46’ – Busch, Chicago

Chassis ‘MMR-006’ – Kenseth, Texas

Chassis ‘JR-22’ – Kenseth, Martinsville

Chassis ‘JR-48’ – Kurt Busch, New Hampshire/July 

Chassis ‘JR-97’ – Mark Martin, Phoenix, Homestead, Martinsville (Fall), 

Richmond (Fall), New Hampshire (rain)



Chip Ganassi Racing with Felix Sabantes 

Chassis ‘212’ – Jamie McMurray, Charlotte 1st place



2003



No. 54 National Guard

Chassis ‘17’ – Todd Bodine, Martinsville/April



Robert Yates Racing

Chassis ‘35’ – Elliott Sadler, Daytona/February wrecked

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
A series or two Don? More like a series or 50 in my case, and I'm still not happy with everything I'm doing. If anyone wants to contribute though......

Perhaps we need to stick this thead -- or perhaps a new one? -- here to allow folks to both place information in the thread or direct folks to a source where such information is available. I'm game if others think it is worth pursuing.

Let's see if anyone has an interest until I can figure out a better way to do this.

Coming soon -- Evernham Motorsports....

If anyone wants to take up Don's suggestion and follow a series and record all of the information, I'm more than willing to display the results on my website. I try as hard as I can during the year to record as much information as possible about everything from rallying to Formula Ford racing, but I don't have the time to chase all of the lesser formulae to as much detail as is required.......

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
If anyone wants to take up Don's suggestion and follow a series and record all of the information, I'm more than willing to display the results on my website. I try as hard as I can during the year to record as much information as possible about everything from rallying to Formula Ford racing, but I don't have the time to chase all of the lesser formulae to as much detail as is required.......

I just might round up as much of my Case History files that I can find and send them to Darren so that folks with a sense of curiousity -- as well as a sense of humor -- can use what little I have managed to ferret out over the years. I'll pull it all into a big wad and let those interested sort it out along with Darren -- and allow all of us to sort through the facts, myths, errors, and just plain mysteries that make an effort like Case History truly a never-ending story....

It will take a week (more like several) or so to scout it all down and put it together. If there is any interest I will make time to do it. And I will ensure that whenever possible that the Hans System in in effect.

2003 Evernham Motorsports

Chassis Number Notebook

Dodge Intrepid with R5-P7 Magnum





No. 9 No. 19 	Date	Event

		8 February	*Bud Shootout

(EMS-41)	EMS-35	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

(EMS-41)	EMS-35	16 February	Daytona 500

EMS-17	EMS-21	23 February	Rockingham

	EMS-37	2 March	Las Vegas

EMS-38	EMS-31	9 March	Atlanta 

EMS-17	EMS-06	16 March	Darlington

EMS-14	EMS-21	23 March	Bristol

EMS-38	EMS-37	30 March	Fort Worth

	EMS-35	6 April	Talladega

EMS-22	EMS-19	13 April	Martinsville

EMS-38	EMS-31	27 April	Fontana

EMS-49	EMS-19	3 May	Richmond

EMS-11	EMS-06	17 May	*Charlotte

EMS-38	EMS-48	25 May	Charlotte 600

EMS-17	EMS-21	1 June	Dover

EMS-30	EMS-37	8 June	Pocono

EMS-38	EMS-06	15 June	Michigan

EMS-24	EMS-26	22 June	Sears Point

EMS-41	EMS-35	5 July	Daytona

EMS-38	EMS-06	13 July	Chicagoland

EMS-49	EMS-19	20 July	New Hampshire

EMS-52	EMS-06	27 July	Pocono

EMS-30	EMS-51	3 August	Indianapolis

EMS-27	EMS-26	10 August	Watkins Glen

		17 August	Michigan

		23 August	Bristol

		31 August	Darlington

		6 September	Richmond

		14 September	New Hampshire

		21 September	Dover

		28 September	Talladega

		5 October	Kansas City

		11 October	Charlotte

		19 October	Martinsville

		26 October	Atlanta

		2 November	Phoenix

		9 November	Rockingham

		16 November	Homestead



Backup = (EMS-##)



2001 Season Chassis Note

EMS-30 – No. 9, Homestead



2002 Season Chassis Notes

EMS-06 – No. 19 / Kansas, Loudon (Summer), Charlotte

EMS-11 – No. 9 / Fontana, Charlotte (Fall), Chicago, Phoenix 

EMS-14 – No. 9 / Texas, Darlington (spring), Charlotte (Spring), Bristol (Fall)

EMS-17 – No. 9 / Darlington 500, Dover (Spring), Dover (Fall), Loudon (Fall), Atlanta (Fall), Rockingham (Fall)

EMS-19 – No. 19 / Martinsville (Spring & Fall), Darlington (Spring & Fall), Loudon (Spring)

EMS-21 – No. 19 / Dover (Spring & Fall), Bristol (Spring)

EMS-22 – No. 9 / Richmond (Spring), Martinsville (Fall)

EMS-24 – No. 9 / Sears Point, Watkins Glen

EMS-26 – No. 19 / Sears Point, Watkins Glen

EMS-30 – No. 9 / Pocono (Spring), Indianapolis, Homestead

EMS-31 – No. 19 / Darlington 500, Atlanta (Fall)

EMS-37 – No. 19 / Darlington (Spring), Indianapolis, Michigan (Summer), Texas, Winston Open

EMS-38 – No. 9 / Michigan (Spring)

It is interesting to note that EMS-18, a short track car, is for sale should anyone be interested.

2003 PPI Racing

Tide Team Racing

Pontiac Grand Prix



	8 February	*Bud Shootout

27	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

27	16 February	Daytona 500

32	23 February	Rockingham

	2 March	Las Vegas

38	9 March	Atlanta 

32	16 March	Darlington

	23 March	Bristol

38	30 March	Fort Worth

27	6 April	Talladega

47	13 April	Martinsville

38	27 April	Fontana

47	3 May	Richmond

42	17 May	*Charlotte

42	25 May	Charlotte 600

32	1 June	Dover

39	8 June	Pocono

38	15 June	Michigan

17	22 June	Sears Point

27	5 July	Daytona

38	13 July	Chicagoland

49	20 July	New Hampshire

39	27 July	Pocono

40	3 August	Indianapolis

17	10 August	Watkins Glen

38	17 August	Michigan



Chassis No. 32, 2002 – Dover (Spring & Fall)

Chassis No. 38, 2002 – Atlanta (Spring), Texas

Chassis No. 39, 2002 – Las Vegas, Texas and Chicago

Chassis No. 40, 2002 – Kansas City

Chassis No. 42, 2002 – Winston Open, Charlotte 600

Once I tried to find just some chassis info about F3000 Lola's or F3 Dallara's, but I gave that up pretty quickly. I do keep records of F1 chassis numbers. This is my list for 2003:

[cars used in actual race]

FERRARI	 M.Schumacher  Barrichello

Australia   F2002-225	 F2002-222

Malaysia	F2002-225	 F2002-222

Brazil	  F2002-225	 F2002-222

San Marino  F2002-225	 F2002-223

Spain	   F2003/GA-229  F2003/GA-228

Austria	 F2003/GA-229  F2003/GA-228

Monaco	  F2003/GA-229  F2003/GA-228

Canada	  F2003/GA-229  F2003/GA-228

Europe	  F2003/GA-229  F2003/GA-230

France	  F2003/GA-229  F2003/GA-230

Britain	 F2003/GA-231  F2003/GA-230

Germany	 F2003/GA-231  F2003/GA-230

 

WILLIAMS	Montoya	   R.Schumacher

Australia   FW25-04	   FW25-03

Malaysia	FW25-04	   FW25-03

Brazil	  FW25-03	   FW25-04

San Marino  FW25-04	   FW25-02

Spain	   FW25-04	   FW25-05

Austria	 FW25-06	   FW25-05

Monaco	  FW25-06	   FW25-05

Canada	  FW25-06	   FW25-05

Europe	  FW25-06	   FW25-07

France	  FW25-06	   FW25-07

Britain	 FW25-06	   FW25-07

Germany	 FW25-06	   FW25-07

 

MCLAREN	 Coulthard	 Raikkonen

Australia   MP4/17D-06	MP4/17D-09

Malaysia	MP4/17D-08	MP4/17D-09

Brazil	  MP4/17D-08	MP4/17D-09

San Marino  MP4/17D-08	MP4/17D-06

Spain	   MP4/17D-07	MP4/17D-06

Austria	 MP4/17D-08	MP4/17D-09

Monaco	  MP4/17D-06	MP4/17D-09

Canada	  MP4/17D-07	MP4/17D-09

Europe	  MP4/17D-07	MP4/17D-09

France	  MP4/17D-08	MP4/17D-09

Britain	 MP4/17D-08	MP4/17D-09

Germany	 MP4/17D-07	MP4/17D-09

 

RENAULT	 Trulli		Alonso

Australia   R23-03		R23-02

Malaysia	R23-03		R23-02

Brazil	  R23-03		R23-02

San Marino  R23-01		R23-04

Spain	   R23-03		R23-04

Austria	 R23-03		R23-01

Monaco	  R23-03		R23-04

Canada	  R23-01		R23-04

Europe	  R23-05		R23-04

France	  R23-05		R23-04

Britain	 R23B-05	   R23B-04

Germany	 R23B-05	   R23B-04



SAUBER	  Heidfeld	  Frentzen

Australia   C22-01		C22-02

Malaysia	C22-01		C22-03

Brazil	  C22-01		C22-02

San Marino  C22-03		C22-04

Spain	   C22-03		C22-04

Austria	 C22-02		C22-04 DNS

Monaco	  C22-02		C22-04

Canada	  C22-02		C22-01

Europe	  C22-01		C22-03

France	  C22-01		C22-03

Britain	 C22-01		C22-03

Germany	 C22-01		C22-03



JORDAN	  Fisichella	Firman

Australia   EJ13-04	   EJ13-02

Malaysia	EJ13-04	   EJ13-02

Brazil	  EJ13-04	   EJ13-02

San Marino  EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

Spain	   EJ13-02	   EJ13-03

Austria	 EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

Monaco	  EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

Canada	  EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

Europe	  EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

France	  EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

Britain	 EJ13-04	   EJ13-03

Germany	 EJ13-05	   EJ13-03



JAGUAR	  Webber		Pizzonia	  Wilson

Australia   R4-01		 R4-03

Malaysia	R4-01		 R4-03

Brazil	  R4-01		 R4-02

San Marino  R4-01		 R4-02

Spain	   R4-04		 R4-03

Austria	 R4-04		 R4-03

Monaco	  R4-04		 R4-03

Canada	  R4-04		 R4-03

Europe	  R4-04		 R4-05

France	  R4-04		 R4-05

Britain	 R4-04		 R4-03

Germany	 R4-04					   R4-05



BAR		 Villeneuve	Button

Australia   005-03		005-04

Malaysia	005-02		005-04

Brazil	  005-02		005-04

San Marino  005-02		005-04

Spain	   005-03		005-04

Austria	 005-03		005-04

Monaco	  005-02		005-04 DNS

Canada	  005-03		005-05

Europe	  005-03		005-04

France	  005-03		005-04

Britain	 005-03		005-04

Germany	 005-03		005-04



MINARDI	 Wilson		Verstappen	Kiesa

Australia   PS03-04	   PS03-02

Malaysia	PS03-04	   PS03-01

Brazil	  PS03-04	   PS03-02

San Marino  PS03-04	   PS03-02

Spain	   PS03-03	   PS03-01

Austria	 PS03-02	   PS03-03

Monaco	  PS03-04	   PS03-03

Canada	  PS03-04	   PS03-03

Europe	  PS03-04	   PS03-03

France	  PS03-04	   PS03-03

Britain	 PS03-04	   PS03-03

Germany				   PS03-03	   PS03-01



TOYOTA	  Panis		 Da Matta

Australia   TF103-03	  TF103-02

Malaysia	TF103-05	  TF103-02

Brazil	  TF103-05	  TF103-02

San Marino  TF103-05	  TF103-02

Spain	   TF103-05	  TF103-02

Austria	 TF103-05	  TF103-07

Monaco	  TF103-04	  TF103-07

Canada	  TF103-05	  TF103-04

Europe	  TF103-05	  TF103-07

France	  TF103-05	  TF103-07

Britain	 TF103-08	  TF103-04

Germany	 TF103-08	  TF103-04

I have compiled a certain number of such works of which the most exhaustive one was on Lotus 72, available on 8w, http://8w.forix.com/72stats.html (as Michael Oliver's Lotus 72 book is due this week, any corrections and missing infos will be appreciated).

Hrvoje

1993

Robert Yates Racing
Chassis ‘012’ – first used August 1992, Davey Allison – Richmond/March, New Hampshire;
Ernie Irvan – Richmond/ September


1998

Robert Yates Racing
Chassis ‘012’ – Darlington/March, Dale Jarrett

Now that's impressive. Running a chassis for over 6 years?

Yates/Jarrett also had a road race chassis in the mid-late 90s which was borderline historic IIRC.....

One of the interesting points from the PPI list is the Pontiac which had that dramatic win in the spring Darlington was a Ford last year (as were some of their other cars)

Originally posted by John B
Yates/Jarrett also had a road race chassis in the mid-late 90s which was borderline historic IIRC.....

One of the interesting points from the PPI list is the Pontiac which had that dramatic win in the spring Darlington was a Ford last year (as were some of their other cars)

Bringing this to the top, as I finally have time to post a reply to this thread...and tying all of this in...

I managed to watch a tape of the ARCA Pocono races and in one, former Cup driver and Modified star Greg Sacks was driving a #88, painted brown and white. Ken Schrader and former ARCA champ Bill Venturini were commentators for the telecast and noticed the number and paint scheme identical to Dale Jarrett's Yates car...but were perplexed by the fact that, despite this, the car was a Dodge. The pit reporter found out that the car was in fact, a former Yates chassis run for Jarrett, that had been changed to a Dodge by putting a new snout on the body!

So, another wonderful obstacle to this quest...the common template. Despite re-skinning cars, it used to be that a Ford was a Ford, a Chevy - a Chevy, a Pontiac - a Pontiac, etc.

Pity the poor historian indeed!


Jim Thurman

Here are some updates for the NASCAR teams:

2003 NASCAR Winston Cup Series Chassis Numbers



2003 Bill Davis Racing 

Chassis Number Notebook

Dodge Intrepid with R5-P7 Magnum





No. 22 Burton

(& Wimmer)	No. 23 Wallace	Date	Event

		8 February	*Bud Shootout

BDR-51	BDR-68	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

BDR-	BDR-68	16 February	Daytona 500

	BDR-45	23 February	Rockingham

BDR-72		2 March	Las Vegas

		9 March	Atlanta 

	BDR-45	16 March	Darlington

BDR-65	BDR-45	23 March	Bristol

	BDR-73	30 March	Fort Worth

BDR-51	BDR-68	6 April	Talladega

BDR-74	BDR-56	13 April	Martinsville

		27 April	Fontana

BDR-63	BDR-70	3 May	Richmond

		17 May	*Charlotte

	BDR-75	25 May	Charlotte 600

BDR-65	BDR-45	1 June	Dover

BDR-72	BDR-45	8 June	Pocono

		15 June	Michigan

BDR-46	BDR-54	22 June	Sears Point

BDR-51	BDR-68	5 July	Daytona

BDR-76		13 July	Chicagoland

BDR-63	BDR-70	20 July	New Hampshire

BDR-72	BDR-45	27 July	Pocono

BDR-76	BDR-75	3 August	Indianapolis

BDR-46	BDR-54	10 August	Watkins Glen

BDR-76	BDR-73	17 August	Michigan

BDR-65	BDR-45	23 August	Bristol

BDR-66	BDR-77	31 August	Darlington

BDR-63	BDR-70	6 September	Richmond

		14 September	New Hampshire

BDR-65	BDR-45	21 September	Dover

BDR-51	BDR-68	28 September	Talladega

BDR-78	BDR-77	5 October	Kansas City

BDR-76	BDR-75	11 October	Charlotte

BDR-74	BDR-56	19 October	Martinsville

BDR-78	BDR-75	26 October	Atlanta

BDR-74	BDR-52	2 November	Phoenix

BDR-66	BDR-45	9 November	Rockingham

BDR-76		16 November	Homestead





 

2003 Evernham Motorsports

Chassis Number Notebook

Dodge Intrepid with R5-P7 Magnum





No. 9 Elliott	No. 19 Mayfield	Date	Event

		8 February	*Bud Shootout

EMS-41	EMS-35	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

EMS-41	EMS-35	16 February	Daytona 500

EMS-17	EMS-21	23 February	Rockingham

	EMS-37	2 March	Las Vegas

EMS-38	EMS-31	9 March	Atlanta 

EMS-17	EMS-06	16 March	Darlington

EMS-14	EMS-21	23 March	Bristol

EMS-38	EMS-37	30 March	Fort Worth

	EMS-35	6 April	Talladega

EMS-22	EMS-19	13 April	Martinsville

EMS-38	EMS-31	27 April	Fontana

EMS-49	EMS-19	3 May	Richmond

EMS-11	EMS-06	17 May	*Charlotte

EMS-38	EMS-48	25 May	Charlotte 600

EMS-17	EMS-21	1 June	Dover

EMS-30	EMS-37	8 June	Pocono

EMS-38	EMS-06	15 June	Michigan

EMS-24	EMS-26	22 June	Sears Point

EMS-41	EMS-35	5 July	Daytona

EMS-38	EMS-06	13 July	Chicagoland

EMS-49	EMS-19	20 July	New Hampshire

EMS-52	EMS-06	27 July	Pocono

EMS-30	EMS-51	3 August	Indianapolis

EMS-27	EMS-26	10 August	Watkins Glen

EMS-30	EMS-51	17 August	Michigan

EMS-52	EMS-21	23 August	Bristol

EMS-54	EMS-37	31 August	Darlington

EMS-22	EMS-50	6 September	Richmond

EMS-49	EMS-50	14 September	New Hampshire

EMS-54	EMS-37	21 September	Dover

EMS-31	EMS-35	28 September	Talladega

EMS-30	EMS-37	5 October	Kansas City

EMS-54	EMS-37	11 October	Charlotte

EMS-49	EMS-02	19 October	Martinsville

EMS-30	EMS-37	26 October	Atlanta

EMS-55	EMS-50	2 November	Phoenix

EMS-54	EMS-57	9 November	Rockingham

EMS-30	EMS-37	16 November	Homestead





 

2003 Joe Gibbs Racing 

Chassis Numbers

Chevrolet Monte Carlo





18.Labonte	18.Backup	20.Stewart	20.Backup	Date	Event

		JGR-73		8 February	*Bud Shootout

JGR-69	JGR-82	JGR-70	JGR-73	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

JGR-69	JGR-82	JGR-70	JGR-73	16 February	Daytona 500

JGR-66	JGR-62	JGR-65	JGR-68	23 February	Rockingham

JGR-74	JGR-62	JGR-49	JGR-75	2 March	Las Vegas

JGR-76	JGR-74	JGR-61	JGR-54	9 March	Atlanta 

JGR-66	JGR-74	JGR-65	JGR-68	16 March	Darlington

JGR-71	JGR-62	JGR-68	JGR-75	23 March	Bristol

JGR-76	JGR-74	JGR-75	* JGR-54 	30 March	Fort Worth

JGR-69	JGR-82	JGR-70	JGR-73	6 April	Talladega

JGR-64	JGR-52	JGR-63	JGR-67	13 April	Martinsville

JGR-74	JGR-62	JGR-77	JGR-61	27 April	Fontana

JGR-64	JGR-52	JGR-63	JGR-67	3 May	Richmond

JGR-62	JGR-74	JGR-75	JGR-61	17 May	*Charlotte

JGR-76	JGR-74	JGR-77	JGR-61	25 May	Charlotte 600

JGR-71	JGR-66	JGR-77	JGR-65	1 June	Dover

JGR-62	JGR-52	JGR-83	JGR-49	8 June	Pocono

JGR-78	JGR-74	JGR-77	JGR-61	15 June	Michigan

JGR-80	JGR-86	JGR-48	JGR-79	22 June	Sears Point

JGR-69	JGR-72	JGR-70	JGR-73	5 July	Daytona

JGR-76	JGR-74	JGR-83	JGR-61	13 July	Chicagoland

JGR-64	JGR-62	JGR-44	JGR-67	20 July	New Hampshire

JGR-74	JGR-62	JGR-83	JGR-49	27 July	Pocono

JGR-85	JGR-78	JGR-77	JGR-49	3 August	Indianapolis

JGR-86	JGR-80	JGR-48	JGR-79	10 August	Watkins Glen

JGR-78	JGR-62	JGR-83	JGR-49	17 August	Michigan

JGR-71	JGR-66	JGR-65	JGR-75	23 August	Bristol

JGR-66	JGR-62	JGR-68	JGR-75	31 August	Darlington

JGR-64	JGR-52	JGR-67	JGR-44	6 September	Richmond

JGR-84	JGR-52	JGR-63	JGR-44	14 September	New Hampshire

JGR-71	JGR-62	JGR-77	JGR-75	21 September	Dover

JGR-69	JGR-72	JGR-70	JGR-73	28 September	Talladega

JGR-78	JGR-74	JGR-83	JGR-75	5 October	Kansas City

JGR-87	JGR-74	JGR-77	JGR-75	11 October	Charlotte

JGR-84	JGR-52	JGR-44	JGR-63	19 October	Martinsville

JGR-87	JGR-74	JGR-77	JGR-75	26 October	Atlanta

JGR-84	JGR-52	JGR-67	JGR-63	2 November	Phoenix

JGR-66	JGR-74	JGR-54	JGR-68	9 November	Rockingham

JGR-78	JGR-87	JGR-77	JGR-75 	16 November	Homestead



* Failed to pass inspection, original backup chassis used instead



5 July/ Daytona: Mike Bliss, No. 80/ Primary – JGR 82, Backup – JGR 81

28 September/ Talladega: Mike Bliss, No. 80/ Primary – JGR-82, Backup – JGR 81



 

2003 Hendrick Motorsports

Kellogg’s/ Got Milk?

Dupont Auto Finishes

UAW-Delphi

Lowe’s Home Improvement Warehouses

Chevrolet Monte Carlo with SB2





No. 5 Labonte	No. 24 Gordon	No. 25 Nemechek	  (& Vickers)	No. 48 Johnson	Date	Event

				8 February	*Bud Shootout

		HMS-2542 		13 February	*Gatorade 125s

		HMS-2542		16 February	Daytona 500

HMS-251		HMS-2548		23 February	Rockingham

HMS-262		HMS-2547		2 March	Las Vegas

HMS-251				9 March	Atlanta 

HMS-262		HMS-2547		16 March	Darlington

HMS-206		HMS-2548		23 March	Bristol

				30 March	Fort Worth

		HMS-2542		6 April	Talladega

HMS-261				13 April	Martinsville

		HMS-2547		27 April	Fontana

		HMS-2544		3 May	Richmond

HMS-225				17 May	*Charlotte

HMS-262				25 May	Charlotte 600

HMS-206				1 June	Dover

HMS-225		HMS-2551		8 June	Pocono

HMS-225		HMS-2547		15 June	Michigan

		HMS-2555		22 June	Sears Point

		HMS-2542		5 July	Daytona

HMS-206		HMS-2540		13 July	Chicagoland

HMS-261				20 July	New Hampshire

HMS-225		HMS-2551		27 July	Pocono

		HMS-2550		3 August	Indianapolis

		HMS-2555		10 August	Watkins Glen

HMS-225		HMS-2540		17 August	Michigan

HMS-206		HMS-2548		23 August	Bristol

HMS-262		HMS-2547		31 August	Darlington

HMS-263		HMS-2544		6 September	Richmond

HMS-261		HMS-2551		14 September	New Hampshire

HMS-262		HMS-2548		21 September	Dover

		HMS-2542		28 September	Talladega

		HMS-2540		5 October	Kansas City

		HMS-2550		11 October	Charlotte

		HMS-2544		19 October	Martinsville

		HMS-2547		26 October	Atlanta

		HMS-2551		2 November	Phoenix

		HMS-2540		9 November	Rockingham

				16 November	Homestead



11 October/ Charlotte: Brian Vickers, No. 60: HMS-2547



 





2003 PPI Racing

Tide Team Racing

Pontiac Grand Prix





No. 32 Ricky Craven	Date	Event

	8 February	*Bud Shootout

27	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

27	16 February	Daytona 500

32	23 February	Rockingham

	2 March	Las Vegas

38	9 March	Atlanta 

32	16 March	Darlington

46	23 March	Bristol

38	30 March	Fort Worth

27	6 April	Talladega

47	13 April	Martinsville

38	27 April	Fontana

47	3 May	Richmond

42	17 May	*Charlotte

42	25 May	Charlotte 600

32	1 June	Dover

39	8 June	Pocono

38	15 June	Michigan

17	22 June	Sears Point

27	5 July	Daytona

38	13 July	Chicagoland

49	20 July	New Hampshire

39	27 July	Pocono

40	3 August	Indianapolis

17	10 August	Watkins Glen

38	17 August	Michigan

46	23 August	Bristol

32	31 August	Darlington

39	6 September	Richmond

(49)	14 September	New Hampshire

32	21 September	Dover

27	28 September	Talladega

38	5 October	Kansas City

32	11 October	Charlotte

49	19 October	Martinsville

38	26 October	Atlanta

49	2 November	Phoenix

32	9 November	Rockingham

40	16 November	Homestead







 

2003 Richard Childress Racing

Chassis Numbers

Chevrolet Monte Carlo





No. 29 Harvick	No. 30 Green / Parks	No. 31 Gordon	Date	Event

			8 February	*Bud Shootout

81	91	94	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

81	91	94	16 February	Daytona 500

107		105	23 February	Rockingham

88		103	2 March	Las Vegas

	92		9 March	Atlanta 

107		99	16 March	Darlington

110	108	105	23 March	Bristol

	78		30 March	Fort Worth

81	91		6 April	Talladega

110	115	103	13 April	Martinsville

	78 (86 backup)	116	27 April	Fontana

111	115	99	3 May	Richmond

107	78	99	17 May	*Charlotte Winston

107	78	99	25 May	Charlotte 600

111	109	82	1 June	Dover

110	92	99	8 June	Pocono

	109	103	15 June	Michigan

67	50	117	22 June	Sears Point

81	91	94	5 July	Daytona

110	92	82	13 July	Chicagoland

111	114	99	20 July	New Hampshire

110	118	82	27 July	Pocono

88	78	103	3 August	Indianapolis

67	98	117	10 August	Watkins Glen

88	78	103	17 August	Michigan

107	109	116	23 August	Bristol

110	114	82	31 August	Darlington

111	115	99	6 September	Richmond

110	118	100	14 September	New Hampshire

110	92	116	21 September	Dover

81	85	119	28 September	Talladega

88	92	103	5 October	Kansas City

110	78	105	11 October	Charlotte

111	115	100	19 October	Martinsville

110		103	26 October	Atlanta

111	108	118	2 November	Phoenix

110	92	105	9 November	Rockingham

88	118	103	16 November	Homestead



28 September/ Talladega: Andretti, No. 90, ‘84’

 

2003 Roush Racing 

Chassis Numbers

Ford Taurus 





6.Martin	16.Biffle	17.Kenseth	97.Busch	99.Burton	Date	Event

JR-101					8 February	*Bud Shootout

JR-100	MMR-028	MMR-17	JR-55	JR-37	13 February	*Gatorade 125s

JR-101	MMR-028	MMR-17	JR-55	JR-37	16 February	Daytona 500

JR-95	JR-008	MMR-31	JR-38	JR-36	23 February	Rockingham

JR-88	JR-006	MMR-20	JR-52	JR-46	2 March	Las Vegas

JR-95	JR-010	MMR-27		JR-44	9 March	Atlanta 

JR-95	JR-008			JR-36	16 March	Darlington

JR-98	JR-004	MMR-10	JR-46	JR-41	23 March	Bristol

JR-97	JR-010	MMR-27	JR-41	JR-49	30 March	Fort Worth

JR-100	MMR-028	MMR-17	JR-55	JR-33	6 April	Talladega

JR-99	JR-001	MMR-22	JR-48	JR-48	13 April	Martinsville

JR-102	JR-011	MMR-20	JR-54	JR-49	27 April	Fontana

JR-97	JR-001	MMR-23	JR-56	JR-48	3 May	Richmond

JR-102	JR-003	MMR-29	JR-40	JR-45	17 May	*Charlotte

JR-95	JR-010	MMR-19	JR-38	JR-45	25 May	Charlotte 600

JR-97	JR-004	MMR-22	JR-46	JR-41	1 June	Dover

JR-98	JR-003	MMR-27	JR-38	JR-46	8 June	Pocono

JR-98	JR-011	MMR-15	JR-54	JR-49	15 June	Michigan

RRC-103	JR-013	MMR-30	JR-50	JR-51	22 June	Sears Point

RRC-101	MMR-028	MMR-17	JR-55	JR-37	5 July	Daytona

RRC-104	JR-010	MMR-19	JR-58	JR-46	13 July	Chicagoland

RRC-97	JR-001	MMR-23	JR-56	JR-50	20 July	New Hampshire

RRC-98	JR-003	MMR-27	JR-52	JR-46	27 July	Pocono

	JR-012	MMR-20	JR-54	JR-52	3 August	Indianapolis

RK-103	JR-013	MMR-30	JR-50	JR-51	10 August	Watkins Glen

JR-105	JR-012	MMR-15	JR-54	JR-52	17 August	Michigan

JR-95	JR-004	MMR-10	JR-46	JR-41	23 August	Bristol

RRC-104	JR-010	MMR-29	JR-40	JR-36	31 August	Darlington

RRC-97	JR-001	MMR-23	JR-56	JR-48	6 September	Richmond

RRC-99	JR-003	MMR-23	JR-48	JR-50	14 September	New Hampshire

RRC-15	JR-011	MMR-27	JR-46	JR-36	21 September	Dover

RRC-100	MMR-028	MMR-17	JR-55	JR-50	28 September	Talladega

RRC-26	JR-015	MMR-20	JR-58	JR-46	5 October	Kansas City

RRC-15	JR-012	MMR-19	JR-38	JR-45	11 October	Charlotte

RRC-106	JR-003	MMR-22	JR-56	RRC-48	19 October	Martinsville

RRC-15	JR-010	MMR-29	JR-41	JR-45	26 October	Atlanta

RRC-106	JR-015	MMR-23	JR-54	JR-50	2 November	Phoenix

RRC-104	JR-011	MMR-31	JR-46	JR-36	9 November	Rockingham

					16 November	Homestead

A little premature, but - preliminary number allocations for the 2004 Daytona 24 Hours:

(seen on dailysportscar.net but presumably in the public domain!)

Daytona Prototypes (17)
2 Howard - Boss Motorsp DP Crawford 001 Maxwell Crawford Crawford Chevrolet
4 Howard - Boss Motorsp DP Crawford 002 Maxwell Crawford Crawford Chevrolet
5 Essex Racing DP Multimatic 002 Michael Gue Multimatic Ford
7 Southard Motorsports DP Fabcar 0007 Steve Southard Fabcar BMW
9 SpeedSource DP Multimatic 004 Sylvain Tremblay Multimatic Ford
10 Sun Trust Racing DP CRD 003 William Riley Riley MK XI Pontiac
15 Essex Racing DP Multimatic 001 Michael Gue Multimatic Ford
27 Doran Racing DP Doran JE4 001 Kevin Doran Doran JE-4 Toyota
39 Silverstone Racing DP Chase 002 Chris Hall Chase Chevrolet
58 Brumos Racing DP Fabcar James Bailie Fabcar Porsche
59 Brumos Racing DP Fabcar 001 James Bailie Fabcar Porsche
61 Odyssey Motorsports DP Chase Comp CLE003 Cory Whitton Chase
70 SpeedSource DP Multimatic 003 Sylvain Tremblay Multimatic Ford
80 G&W Motorsports DP Picchio MC-01 Cole Scrogham Picchio DP2 BMW
81 G&W Motorsports DP Doran JE4-004 Cole Scrogham Doran JE-4 BMW
01 CGR Grand Am DP Riley Mike Hull Riley Lexus
09 Flis Motorsports DP Crawford 003 Troy Flis Crawford Chevrolet

GT (18)
18 ChevyLeavy.com Racing GT Rocketsport RS 19 Jon Leavy Camaro Camaro
21 Prototype Technology Gr GT PTG NR16 7/67-S 005 Thomas Milner BMW M3 E46
22 Prototype Technology Gr GT PTG NR16 7/67-S 006 Thomas Milner BMW M3 E46
23 Horizon Motorsports GT Horizon Mot HOR395-01 James Harrell Pontiac Grand Prix
24 Specter Werks / Sports GT Specter Wer NCMCSR12 Jeff Nowicki Corvette LS6
26 Pro-Tek Racing LLC GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z2S692062 Allan Ziegelman Porsche GT3 RS
33 Scuderia Ferrari of WA GT Maserati Co Glenn Marquis Maserati Trofeo Light
52 Gilbert Racing GT Chevrolet 1G1YY12G4X5117873 Henry Gilbert Chevrolet Corvette
66 The Racers Group GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z3S692080 Kevin Buckler Porsche GT3 RS
67 The Racers Group GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z3S692076 Kevin Buckler Porsche GT3 RS
68 The Racers Group GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z2S692109 Kevin Buckler Porsche GT3 RS
73 BE Racing GT Michelotto N-GT 013M Karl Baron Ferrari 360 Modena
74 Flying Lizard Motorsport GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z4S698050 Eric Ingraham Porsche GT3 Cup
75 Flying Lizard Motorsport GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z1S692201 Eric Ingraham Porsche GT3 RS
77 Nettts Racing GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z2S692102 Mark Greenberg Porsche GT3 RS
83 Cirtek Motorsport GT Cirtek WPOZZZ99Z1S692078 Rob Schirle Porsche GT3 RS
92 Wilson Racing GT Dodge 043 Stan Wilson Dodge
99 Schumacher Racing GT Porsche WPOZZZ99Z2S692100 Larry Schumacher Porsche GT3 RS

SGS (13)
14 Autometrics Motorsports SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99ZYS698009 Cory Friedman Porsche GT3 Cup
16 AASCO Motorsports SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z4S698041 Dennis Aase Porsche GT3 Cup
17 AASCO Motorsports SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z4S698042 Dennis Aase Porsche GT3 Cup
41 Phoenix Promotions SGS Porsche Michael Thomas Porsche GT3 Cup
42 Phoenix Promotions SGS Porsche Michael Thomas Porsche GT3 Cup
53 Gilbert Racing SGS Chevrolet 1G1YY125315106214 Henry Gilbert Chevrolet Corvette
65 The Racers Group SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z1S698085 Kevin Buckler Porsche GT3 Cup
71 Doncaster Racing SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z4S698044 John Lacey Porsche GT3 Cup
82 dds Racing SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z1S698055 Steve Lynn Porsche GT3 Cup
86 G&W Motorsports SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z1S698019 Cole Scrogham Porsche GT3 Cup
87 G&W Motorsports SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z3S698089 Cole Scrogham Porsche GT3 Cup
91 Doncaster Racing SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z4S698024 John Lacey Porsche GT3 Cup
119 Doncaster Racing SGS Porsche WPOZZZ99Z1S698035 John Lacey Porsche GT3 Cup.

While my reference shelf lacks the depth of some of the others here, the earliest chassis number notation I might have of a contemporary GP is from the June 1958 issue of Motor Sport where we are informed that Moss had 'VW7', Brooks 'VW10', and Stuart-Evans had 'VW5' for the GP de Monaco. Plus, there is "a lone Connaught from the Ecclestone stable, this being the blunt-nosed B7 car."

Looking through the issues of Motor Sport from this period, it is quite a feat just to find Type numbers much less such specific information on an individual car.

There are the odd bits and pieces of various other information on the identities of cars from various sources prior to this, but this one is the first item I could find which is so specific -- and which I was surprised still remembered after all these years.

Don, I don't know why this chassis number 'bussiness' is so fascinating (even to me), but in a way it leaves me baffled at depth of knowledge and research of certain members and historians... I still believe 'proper' racing cars were entities for themselves, and I find their history and development equally interesting as everything else. But, IMHO, later on it became 'less interesting', because chassis number would be just a means of identification of one 'item' in, more or less, identical series.

P.S. I think someone should try and make a flow-chart for 250F, showing which parts went into which car, change of 'hands', &c... I think anybody who looked at it for more than 15 seconds would go mad.

Having been around "production" type racing cars more than the "one off" specialized type I understand that the owner of the chassis number actually controls what happens to the vehicle.

In some cases totally new vehicles may have been produced using a "number" that may be owned by a certain individual.

Very interesting this racing stuff.

Henry

Some 25 years ago I took apart an unrestored 1954 Maserati A6GCS and it was the most rewarding experience you could imagine. So many parts were clearly marked with chassis numbers. Some carried an A6GCM chassis number, some were clearly marked for that car and others such as the brake dust covers had Guyot scratched in them.
This started an interesting paper chase that culminated in the discovery that a 200S entered for Le Mans in 1957 for Guyot - Parsy was in fact an A6GCS, but which chassis number I could never say for sure, I like to think it was 2087.

Given that one of the national Italian sports is to hoodwink customs I guess one must be careful not to assume that the reason for stamping parts with a chassis number was always an honest one.
Funny how something as ordinary as a chassis number can become so romantic.

Autocourse Vol. 1 No. 2 (1951) list Type 375 Chassis No. 1, No. 3, and No. 4 as entires by Scuderia Ferrari for the Belgian GP.

I have no idea as to why it is or is not of interest to others -- nor do I really care -- but I know that my interest is derived almost entirely from my interest in aviation and from my work with both serial and constructor numbers as well as registration assignments. Plus, it "personalizes" inanimate objects in some way and gives them some sort of identity.

However, like everything else in life, it seems to have taken on a life and direction which is not exactly what many had intended.

Originally posted by Wolf
I don't know why this chassis number 'bussiness' is so fascinating (even to me)...

For me, it would be really fascinating, if better historians did not make chassis numbers research much earlier. Now learning these research results is very interesting and useful in learning history. If we don't know chassis numbers, we see just a car, but when we know chassis number, it's THE car having it's personal history. Some chassis number research gives good pictures of chassis developments.

Don, I don't know why this chassis number 'bussiness' is so fascinating (even to me),

Facts, be they the signing of the Magna Carter, the death of Marilyn Monroe, the year and place your great grandmother was born, the serial number of a Thompson submachine gun, or the chassis number of a particular car, are historical but not really history. None of these facts occurred in isolation.

For me, at least, a car with a certain chassis number is interesting because that car with that number was the culmination of the efforts of a few or many people in response to whatever their objectives were at the time, whatever was going on around them, and whatever their resources may have been.

Over time, the modifications to the car carrying a certain chassis number, the races it entered, the persons who owned it, and the drivers who raced it and raced against it, also reflect choices, good and bad, made by individuals. The car with chassis #__ is actually the expression or embodiment or culmination (take your pick) of all that. So, of course it is interesting to people interested in that sort of thing.

Didn't mean to get all preachy and carried away and will not take offense at being rebuked for stating the obvious. :

I believe there is a little of the engineer and a little of the poet in each of us. The engineer wants to know the exact constituents of the materials he works with. The poet wants them all arranged in just the right way to create a desired effect.

"Owning" the chassis number satisfies both urges. And thus enables approach to a completed Gestalt, doncha know.

--
Frank ess

PS: Shall I put up my new photos of Fred Puhn's V8RI Maserati, c/n 4502 ? How big?

Originally posted by Wolf
Don, I don't know why this chassis number 'bussiness' is so fascinating (even to me), but in a way it leaves me baffled at depth of knowledge and research of certain members and historians... I still believe 'proper' racing cars were entities for themselves, and I find their history and development equally interesting as everything else. But, IMHO, later on it became 'less interesting', because chassis number would be just a means of identification of one 'item' in, more or less, identical series.

P.S. I think someone should try and make a flow-chart for 250F, showing which parts went into which car, change of 'hands', &c... I think anybody who looked at it for more than 15 seconds would go mad.

There is a guy (in Canada I believe) that did just that! He suposedly has something like 10,000 250F photos....but for the life of me, I can't think of his name....

Barrie Hobkirk

..and you can more than double the number of his photographs ;)

In the mid-1950s, the Granville Press (publisher of Motor Sport) used to produce a useful little book called 'Motor Racing Review', written by Jenks. I once asked him why he had stopped doing it and he said it came down to Vanwall chassis numbers.

Back then there was a lot of paperwork involved getting a car to, say, Monza, in essence you had to have a passport (called a 'green carnet') for it. Vanwall decided it was easier to change a chassis plate than it was to apply for the paperwork. Jenks was faced with either saying which car did what, or which chassis plate did it. Rather than compromise Vanwall, or himself, he stopped writing the books.

When working as Eric Broadley's assistant at Lola, Tony Southgate noticed that an inspector from Customs & Excise had pulled in up the street. The inspector had called in previously so this was a surprise check - at the time we had Purchase Tax, not VAT, but there were loopholes.

In the five minutes it took for the inspector to walk to the workship, with some dealying tactics at the door, the chassis plate on all cars tallied with the previous visit.

When John Cooper Cars first entered a vehicle in the Goodwood Soapbox Derby, Mike Cooper got one of his Dad's old chassis plates and stamped it: T91/1. As several of us told Mike, it was clearly not a Cooper. He was puzzled, but then we explained that the sure sign of a fake Cooper is a chassis plate.

Fact: if you want to age a chassis plate, three months in a beaker of strong tea (no milk or sugar) works very nice. The law of libel prevents me from saying more.

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence


Fact: if you want to age a chassis plate, three months in a beaker of strong tea (no milk or sugar) works very nice. The law of libel prevents me from saying more.

Love it. Great post Mike.

One of the reasons I started this thread was that when one begins to survey the motor racing literature available until some point into the 1960s, information such as the chassis number of a specific car in a specific event was an unusual bit of information to find in an article or elsewhere within an magazine. Yes, once you have an idea as to what to look for you can go back and find clues and/or corroborating material on individual cars in any number of series, stretching well back into the deep fissues of time.

During the 1960s, the individual chassis numbers of racing cars (as road cars had already become in some cases) became more and more a topic of interest and discussion. From various magazines it was now possible to begin to piece together the fabric of not only a Type/Tipo, but the individual cars within a Type/Tipo. Whether this was of any utility was often besides the point -- it was another metric for those attempting to develop a scheme of how the racing world was put together: or at least a series or two within that world.

Keep in mind that once upon a time, during that period when our information was quite imperfect, that simply determing a Type number was quite a feat in some cases -- knowing an individual chassis number was a rarity. When Nye, Jenkinson, and others started to inject this sort information into their stories on a routine basis, those of us straining to record such information almost went into overload. Some of the more clever sorts were able to begin to derive further identities and backtrack those already identified.

In a few cases, there were collaborative efforts formed -- the justifiably renowned Formula 1 Register being one of these, but for the most part we worked on our own and filled up notebooks with our scribbles and notes and wished we had all those various reference works on our shelves rather than having to make the trek to the local library. Even those lucky to have more than a few things sitting on their reference shelves had to accept that they faced gaps in their knowledge.

Digging out this information was often hard damn work and always frustrating since a sngle letter to the editor in the wake of an article could torpedo a whole line of thinking -- especially if you missed that letter to the editor.....

I would venture to guess that many here began their interest in the murky arcane world of motor racing history somewhere in the mid to late 1950s up to, let us say, the early 1980s. There was a virtual explosion in the literature devoted to motor racing history during this period which made getting involved and filling notebooks less painful than it had been. I recall being pleasantly pleased with myself when I had most of the data for the world championship rounds and a goodly bit for the non-championship events. Plus, a lot of material on the US sports car events, AAA & USAC events, and NASCAR GN races, along with the international spots car events.

Then came The Black Books and right their heels the Internet and the World Wide Web.

To say that the world of the chassis number cultists and motor racing historians became unglued and morphed into something few had truly ever imagined or even contemplated is an understatement. However, despite all the sunny aspects of this information bonanza, there are a few dark clouds lurking. As is ever the case, there are those whose interest in turning a pretty penny or a million or two hinges on information and how it is used, along with the admonition that like geometry, there is no royal road to history.

Perhaps my usual pointless and obscure comments, but often it seems that the line between trivia, nostlagia, and history are so fuzzy and hazy as to reinforce the notion that it is the chassis numbers themselves which are important, not the insight and the bits of information which they contribute to a larger and complete view of the fabric which are important.

As for Mike's comments -- it is often the slight of hand and deceit which says more than the supposed truth.....

Unfortunately, some of the books that are supposed to have historic facts about particular cars histories are written by people in the business as dealers or car brokers...and they are written with an agenda simply to sell cars....no matter if real or "recreation"...

I won't get into specifics, but most of you know who these people are...

As Stu points out, this is the true Dark Side of all this and one with which information from TNF has become more and more a factor in recent years. More than a few from The Dark Side lurk here and find much of what they need to conduct business....

Originally posted by Don Capps
As Stu points out, this is the true Dark Side of all this and one with which information from TNF has become more and more a factor in recent years. More than a few from The Dark Side lurk here and find much of what they need to conduct business....

Yes, those in The Dark Side may benefit from TNF, but those in "The Light Side" can come here and check what is true and what is not. I am quite sure a few not-so-kosher deals were stopped because of findings uncovered by the expert members of this forum in these pages.

And, with no mention to names, this forum has been of significant importance to show a number of people of lesser knowledge - as myself - who are good guys and who are the bad ones.

Originally posted by Don Capps
As Stu points out, this is the true Dark Side of all this and one with which information from TNF has become more and more a factor in recent years. More than a few from The Dark Side lurk here and find much of what they need to conduct business....

Yes, for instance identifying missing/broken down cars, or chassis numbers that were never used in a serie.

Very nice thread, Don. I am not old enough to have realized that chassis numbers became a historical issue so late. When it's now worldwide known that Mercedes Benz did keep precise records of chassis identification prewar, one would have thought that already then somebody did care.

When interested in Alfa Romeos, chassis identification is a nightmare, since it's now well documented that Alfa or its racing department through the years played alot with chassis numbers. From the new road cars made from renumbered former racing cars (as documented by Simon Moore about 8C2.9s) to switched plates in the Vanwall style, as Mike tells, for the same Custom reasons, down to the numbering of the GTAs, purposely full of number gaps since it's reckoned that 500 cars were built where 1000 were needed for homologation...

An odd initiative then comes to your attention when you discover that the Tipo 33/3 of 1970 were called after stars names. When watching closely to period pictures of the 1970 season, mostly at the beginning, you'll find small white scripts on the front fenders. I remember Sirius, but haven't documents at hand to name further ones. Now, a name on the body won't guarantee the undelying chassis' identity!

I taotally agree with Patrick regarding Alfa chassis numbering and the nightmare it is.

I personally believe that when it comes to pre-war cars, not as many were built as are claimed.

I am 99% certain that some of the cars listed as 6c2300B MMs (for example) actually had the chassis built turned into 6c2500s....not actually restamped, but never stamped with a 6c2300 number...they were sitting there in the factory...and stamped at a later date with a 6c2500 number!!

I agree that the number of GTAs claimed to have been built is different than the actually number; by maybe as much as two times!


Stu

Originally posted by Don Capps
Autocourse Vol. 1 No. 2 (1951) list Type 375 Chassis No. 1, No. 3, and No. 4 as entires by Scuderia Ferrari for the Belgian GP.

But not the same numbers as the Black Book...