The notorious 'Rouen ravine'

From Innes Ireland’s All Arms and Elbows”, describing his F2 Lotus crash at Rouen in 1959:

“I was travelling so quickly, in fact, that ? according to an eye?witness ? I ran up the banking and took off, clearing a car parked behind the bank by eight or ten feet. Beyond the banking, and about fifty yards on, there was a steep ravine fringed with trees.
By the time I hit the trees, I was at an altitude of about 25 feet! I went through the trees and the nose of the car caught in the branches and the whole thing started tumbling down the ravine end over end with me still in the driver's seat. It then finished up about 150 feet down the ravine on its nose at the bottom of a tree and with the tail caught in the branches above”

From Doug Nye’s Theme Lotus..

“…he lost his brakes into the left-handed Virage Sanson, and hit the outside bank at around 100mph. That launched car and driver through the tree tops to plunge 60 feet or so into the notorious Rouen ravine “

First I noticed that Doug’s figure for the depth of plummet into the ravine is more believable, but then was more intrigued by his reference to the “notorious” ravine. Did a lot of cars end up down there, to give it such a reputation?

I wonder if anyone can find me a photo of this corner roughly at the time of the Ireland escapade.

Or can anyone one confirm that this modern shot (from Little Chris’s website)
http://edome.fi.sone...l/rouen/R13.jpg
shows where Ireland left the road, if you imagine him going straight on.

Little Chris' photo does indeed show the entry to Sanson, where Ireland shot off into the treetops. The road looks much the same now as it must have done in 1959, with the addition of a little armco.
I can't find any contemporary photos except the one on page 53 of Roger Biot's excellent Rouen-les-Essarts 1950-1993 picturing Ireland's car amongst the young trees at the bottom of the "ravine". How deep the ravine is, or how many others were unfortunate to end up there, I'm afraid I can't tell you.

Last year I spent 3 hours on the site, with vivid memories of how it was and what it looks like today. I took many pictures and even found a part of the old "Garage" sign that used to mark the entry of the pit lane. Very sad end indeed to a great circuit.

T54

Despite the circuit's disgraceful annihilation by the local council (see note below) - demolition of the pits, the grandstand at Nouveau Monde, "tarmacadaming" of the cobbles at the Nouveau Monde hairpin, etc., etc... I still frequently visit.

The place has the most extraordinary atmosphere, not to mention (of course) the quite sublime sweepers down the hill past the pits all the way to Nouveau Monde.

How dearly I wish I could have seen a Grand Prix there... Whatever.

Yes, the climb up the S bends from Nouveau Monde is steep and there is quite a significant "drop" in the scenery behind the armco. I wasn't aware, however, that Ireland's accident was at Sanson. Are we quite sure about this?

Mark

Note : (sad note ) I still can't believe that the French authorities took away the buildings and landmarks of such a magnificent circuit...and I genuinely believed that I could go back there year in, year out and dream of the greats who excelled there. I still can of course, but the place feels vandalised now. It is (!) and I'd like to get my hands on the cretins that ordered the works to be done.

Note : (sad note ) I still can't believe that the French authorities took away the buildings and landmarks of such a magnificent circuit...and I genuinely believed that I could go back there year in, year out and dream of the greats who excelled there. I still can of course, but the place feels vandalised now. It is (!) and I'd like to get my hands on the cretins that ordered the works to be done.

I would answer to this but then it would become a political discussion. Let just say that the French anti-car and anti-racing brigade running most of the cities is squarely responsible for this desecration. Indeed there is no justification for destroying past history for no reason whatsoever.

T54

T54, it is "desecration" - you're right.

When I saw what had happened a few years back I was absolutely appalled.

Mark

Originally posted by MCS
Despite the circuit's disgraceful annihilation by the local council (see note below) - demolition of the pits, the grandstand at Nouveau Monde, "tarmacadaming" of the cobbles at the Nouveau Monde hairpin, etc., etc... I still frequently visit.

The place has the most extraordinary atmosphere, not to mention (of course) the quite sublime sweepers down the hill past the pits all the way to Nouveau Monde.

I work only a few minutes away, on the south side of Rouen, and visit frequently. Certainly the removal of the cobbles was inexplicable - can't think why they did it. However, if there were to be a choice beween keeping the southern half of the circuit which remains, and preservation of the old stand and pits buildings, then I'd take what we have now thanks very much. You can walk or cycle the 1972-93 Gresnil-Paradis section.

Yes, the climb up the S bends from Nouveau Monde is steep and there is quite a significant "drop" in the scenery behind the armco. I wasn't aware, however, that Ireland's accident was at Sanson. Are we quite sure about this?

I wasn't there, but Ireland says "I was accelerating hard uphill at about 100 m.p.h towards a hard left-hand corner when I found that the brake pedal went straight into the floorboards without the slightest effect whatever ...... ahead of me led a ramp-like banking and sure enough, I headed straight for it."
Only one corner on the circuit fits that description.
Doug Nye describes it as at Sanson, as does Roger Biot, who was there (sports correspondent of Paris-Normandie newspaper). Where else could it have happened?

Here's a local map of the circuit. It's fairly obvious which corner is Sanson. http://www.silhouet....ks/rouenmap.jpg

Originally posted by Kpy

I wasn't there, but Ireland says "I was accelerating hard uphill at about 100 m.p.h towards a hard left-hand corner when I found that the brake pedal went straight into the floorboards without the slightest effect whatever ...... ahead of me led a ramp-like banking and sure enough, I headed straight for it."
Only one corner on the circuit fits that description.
Doug Nye describes it as at Sanson, as does Roger Biot, who was there (sports correspondent of Paris-Normandie newspaper). Where else could it have happened?

"hard left-hand corner" definitely Sanson then...

Mark

Happy days. My trusty Elan poses at Nouveau Monde on one of our many European tours. I used to take a very basic tool kit but it never missed a beat...

oops..

Your pic from a few years past as the cobblestones are long gone...

I fell off my Bultaco there in the 1966 GP...

T54

Originally posted by T54
Your pic from a few years past as the cobblestones are long gone...

I fell off my Bultaco there in the 1966 GP...

T54

Early 1982 at a guess. The section between Gresil and Paradis was cordoned off so it was a question of 2/3 of a lap, tootling back and doing it all again. Early morning, traffic-free roads and no speed cameras/bumps. Great fun.

I was sitting on the outside banking on the right side of the picture to watch Brabham, Hulme, Rindt and Clark have a serious go at it in the F2 race sometimes in '67 if I recall... but I was with a delicious and very innocent brunette with strong opinions, so I missed most of the track action.

T54

Originally posted by T54
I fell off my Bultaco there in the 1966 GP...

You mean the 1966 French Motorcycle GP, don't you? Didn't that race (for 250cc & 350cc classes) take place at the Circuit de Charade above Clermont-Ferrand?

PS. Out of personal interest: If you were a GP bike rider in the 1960s, have you revealed your true identity anywhere on this forum? Or is it a secret that is to be kept?

ReWind, I cannot remember the year for sure. I was what you would call a decent national-level rider and ran a few FIM GP's, but got much better results and a good number of wins on the national level in both "Sport" and GP classes between 1962 and 1969.

At Rouen that year, I drove a Spanish Ducson in the 50cc class and a Bultaco in the 125cc class. The Ducson was loaned to me by an agent of the Spanish company and it was slower than the Derbi I was used to, and it seized up in the downhill esses after a few laps of practice. I fell at the Nouveau Monde with the Bultaco TSS while trying too hard and it was a bit bent, meaning that I spent the GP watching and helping my late friend Claude Vigreux with his own 125cc Bultaco. His mechanic was Leconte, a Velocette dealer in Paris and later my own sponsor on a Kreidler on which we nearly won the French championship. Vigreux, a truly great rider, was doing real well (litterally first true private entry behind the works Hondas and Suzukis) when he came in to... refuel as the TSS was a bit too thirsty and its tank a bit small for the long GP. Leconte was totally un-prepared and everyone began fumbling for fuel and mixing oil, losing a lot of time. By the time he got back on the track, two laps had been lost.

Was it 1966 or 1967? I am not sure and I only have pictures and memories but few dates. I recall that Honda had a 6-cylinder 250cc there under blankets as well as a 125-4 or may be even 5-cylinder. They were very secretive and covered the bikes all the time. Ralph Bryans had a 50cc twin and I vaguely recall that he might have won the class. The paddock was just as it looks today, a mix of a few concrete runways and mostly... dirt and leaves under the trees.

I remember being at Clermond-Ferrand the year after (1967 or 1968?) and our settlement in the dirt-covered paddock was next to...Mike Hailwood and the 500cc Honda with the special British-built frame that Honda barred him from using. So they were taking the engine out to set it back in the flexi-flyer works frame. I remember seing Hailwood in the foulest mood... This was also the year Helmut Fath brought the URS 4-cylinder outfit for the first time. It was looking pathetic with fiberglass and oil runs dripping on the sides of the fairing, but made the most glorious sounds, while obviously needing a lot more flywheel to get any torque in mid-range... Fath looked like a wild man and slept in a little tent next to the sidecar. And so did we as we could hardly afford a hotel...
These were the times of lots of aspirations but little money. Fortunately it got better since.

T54

Originally posted by T54
I was sitting on the outside banking on the right side of the picture to watch Brabham, Hulme, Rindt and Clark have a serious go at it in the F2 race sometimes in '67 if I recall... but I was with a delicious and very innocent brunette with strong opinions, so I missed most of the track action.

T54

...surely there would have been more excuse to have missed the track action if she had been "less" innocent.;)

...surely there would have been more excuse to have missed the track action if she had been "less" innocent.

This is where you may be wrong as innocence can be very interesting...

Originally posted by T54
Was it 1966 or 1967? (...) Ralph Bryans had a 50cc twin and I vaguely recall that he might have won the class.

Then it has to be 1965 (not least because there were no FIM World Championship races at Rouen in later years ;) ); although at Rouen there were only 4 classes (50cc, 125cc, 250cc, Sidecars, no 350cc, no 500cc, at least at World Championship level). In 1966 and 1967 the French Motorcycle GP was held at Clermont-Ferrand, in 1968 there was no such race (perhaps because of the political riots in May, I don't know for sure).

PS. You hide your identity very well. I'm not that deep into the bike racing stuff to reveal your identity by the clues you give.;)

You hide your identity very well.

Not really... most everyone knows me here... nothing to hide!



T54

Originally posted by T54
I spent the GP watching and helping my late friend Claude Vigreux with his own 125cc Bultaco. His mechanic was Leconte, a Velocette dealer in Paris and later my own sponsor on a Kreidler on which we nearly won the French championship. Vigreux, a truly great rider, was doing real well (litterally first true private entry behind the works Hondas and Suzukis) when he came in to... refuel as the TSS was a bit too thirsty and its tank a bit small for the long GP. Leconte was totally un-prepared and everyone began fumbling for fuel and mixing oil, losing a lot of time. By the time he got back on the track, two laps had been lost.

Was it 1966 or 1967

It was 1965

Vigreux finished 8th on the 125 Bultaco - 3 laps down. Race distance was 130.84km, winner was Hugh Anderson (Suzuki) in 52' 57.4".

Thanks Kpy! That does not make me any younger..
Vigreux was killed in a terrible accident at Mettet in Belgium. Another rider and 3 spectators died in the same crash, including a 5-year old little girl. Nasty business and I lost my best friend.

T54

Originally posted by T54


Not really... most everyone knows me here... nothing to hide!



T54

Rewind, our friend PdL ( aka T54 ) is trying to confuse you even more by posting a picture of him which is definitely much more recent than the "1960's" he mentions ....so I feel I need to add that in the later years , he also had a decent racing career at national level in the USA after migrating there, and I'm fairly sure this picture shows him aboard his Morbidelli 125 ( rather an exotic machine to have on the other side of the pond.....)

...and I'm fairly sure this picture shows him aboard his Morbidelli 125 ( rather an exotic machine to have on the other side of the pond.....)

Actually this picture is of the (in) famous "GCS" (Garbage Can Special) , a "home-built" machine constructed with the help of discarded ex-works Kawasaki and Yamaha parts at the All Ameraican Racers shop in Santa Ana after hours in the winter of 1974. It cleaned the 125cc class in the Western USA in the mid 1970's, beating all comers for over a year. It did survive in various hands, was found, restored and is now on display at the RaceRock restaurant in Orlando, FL. It was a rather neat machine with good reliability and speed.

The world-beater 1975 46HP Morbidelli was one of only five in existence and on loan from the works, shown here at Riverside:



This very one can be seen at the Morbidelli Museum in Pesaro, Italy, where it was returned after two seasons in USA where it won most of the races entered. That thing was within 1 second around Riverside as my Porsche RS lightweight, and faster there than half of the 250cc field!
Pier-Paolo Bianchi and Paolo Pileri won the world championship with the works bikes in 1975 and 1976 rather easily using this exotic machine that previewed many of the ensuing GP bikes of all displacements over a period of 15 years after it had been devised.

T54

T54,

Please try and tell us what it was like to ride round Rouen-lès-Essarts on a racing bike. It must have been thrilling!

Edward

From what I can remember:
The start is slightly downhill, with the crude concrete pits to your right. Then you accelerate into downhill esses that are pretty much flat-out on a period 125cc GP bike but nonetheless impressive on your fear-factor. Not much room for error as the sides are bordered with typical ditches. Its left, right, left, right. You reach about 120MPH by the time you have to wake up to massive deceleration unless you wish to visit the next village down the hill. The best cars reached probably 155 there... or possibly more.
Brutal braking for the right-hand Nouveau Monde hairpin, and cautious leaning over the humid antique block pavement (I am still sore from getting off twice there... ). Accelerating all your might up the hill, with serious slow down for the Sanson left-hander that had a reverse-camber pavement, sliding you to the outside. The rail gets real close at the exit. Then up the hill again to the top right-hand corner, taken in second gear at about 75, and flat-out again in the forest, followed by big braking for the last right-hander before the pit straight and back around again. It felt pretty much the same as Bourg-en-Bresse, a very similar circuit with the same seemingly permanent "humid" features due to the forest dominating the scenery everywhere.
I remember the pavement being rather smooth except of course for the Nouveau Monde corner and the top straight in the forest where the pavement was always falling apart. The entrance to the pits was at the end of this top straight. The pits were... the pits. Just dirt covered with leaves from the trees all over. There were a few areas of paved surfaces but they were occupied by the factories. Private entries had to do with forest land...

T54

You bike racers are crazy bastards by the way.

No more crazy then car racers, just less protection when "push comes to shunt!"

Down the years I've found just driving round Rouen fairly quickly in a road car quite unnerving.

It doesn't require very much imagination as to what it would be like in almost any form of racing car, but on a bike through the sweepers Wow! I'd never considered that before.

Many years ago I went round Zandvoort on a bike, but found that quite pleasurable (obviously apart from the tragic memories that such a journey would evoke in the mind of any Englishman). Rouen on a bike would require some nerve.

I can remember being there one year in the rain and that was worrying enough in a road car...

Mmmm...food for thought though T54...as Buford rightly says:"You bike racers are..."

Mark

Originally posted by T54
This is where you may be wrong as innocence can be very interesting...

Not crazy at all if I read this correctly...

Sounds like a lot of fun to me!

Mmmm...food for thought though T54...as Buford rightly says:"You bike racers are..."

We probably were and are a bit nutsy. But having enjoyed racing both cars and bikes for now over 40 odd years, my fondest memories are of races on two wheels... it is just more exciting and in my opinion so much more interesting visually for the spectators. I never found that one or the other is more or less lethal. I never really thought of it that way. If I did I guess I would have never even begun. Nine-to-five was never for me... life is too short for that!

But I always loved both, and was a fanatic spectator of racing all my life, that is until it began to be seriously boring to me in the early 1990's. Today is that many of my heros from the 1950s to 1990s are now my friends, but I know personally very few of them who raced after the early 1990s because it seems to me that they are a different breed of people with different interests.
I am very pleased to have found the Nostalgia Forum as I find it full of great information and good camaraderie between genuine enthusiasts.
Regards,

T54

Originally posted by T54
[...]I am very pleased to have found the Nostalgia Forum as I find it full of great information and good camaraderie between genuine enthusiasts.
[...]

Please let me say that I sincerely enjoy your postings. It is good to have you here.

T54,

Did you ever race at Spa? A good friend of mine was a flag marshal at many bike and car races in the sixties and early seventies. Now he reckons that the 125s rode the entire circuit at Spa flat out, apart from La Source. Can you confirm that?

Edward

Yes it is correct. I drove there in 1967 or 1968, not sure, with an ex-works 8-speed water-cooled Derbi from the French distributor. Actually I got my hour of glory by leading the first lap! That did not last long as the slower starters caught up and I was passed by the usual Suzuki twins, Jamathis and works Derbis. I DNF'ed anyway 1 lap from the end with ignition trouble.
In the tiddler class we only reached 105MPH, so other than La Source, it was pretty much flat out. Even then, Eau Rouge on 2" tires was quite interesting...
My Bultaco seized up in practice so I did not qualify to start the 125cc race.

Someone a few years back found and sent me this picture taken from the pits:

I didn't really mind this turning into a bike thread, but now there are other threads dedicated to the two wheelers, I thought I would bring it back to the top to try again with my original question...

Did Innes have an accident that was common place at Rouen...did others plunge into the "notorious ravine"?

Where did Bob Wollek have his big accident - anybody know?

A couple of points, here is DSJ's description of the accident:

"On lap 14 Ireland went off the road due to brake trouble and nose-dived down into a small valley, being remarkably lucky to get away with cuts and bruises, and on the same corner Lewis went off the road, spun and hit the bank, also getting away unhurt."

BTW although Ireland set a practice time for the following weekend's British GP, he had not recovered sufficiently from the Rouen mishap and his place in the race was taken by Stacey, something that is missing from one or two of the "encyclopedias".

Which corner was it? I have no idea and everyone is saying Sanson, one thing though, Little Chris's website doesn't identify the corner shown at the top of this thread as the place where Ireland had his off. Infact he specifies this corner:

http://edome.fi.sone...l/rouen/R11.jpg

The maps seem to indicate an unnamed left-hander between Nouveau Monde and Sanson. Does that exist on the ground and is it the corner that Little Chris identifies as Ireland's corner? No doubt someone who knows the circuit can dismiss this.

As to Doug Nye's description of the corner as the notorious Rouen ravine, perhaps it was notorious because Ireland had disappeared down there one year?

It was notorious since it was deep and unguarded and was a much-discussed place at which "you wouldn't want to go off..." - most paid heed, and avoided paying a visit.

DCN

Originally posted by KJJ

The maps seem to indicate an unnamed left-hander between Nouveau Monde and Sanson. Does that exist on the ground and is it the corner that Little Chris identifies as Ireland's corner? No doubt someone who knows the circuit can dismiss this.

KJJ

It definitely exists and it is at the entry to this corner that Graham Hill was pictured handing his goggles to Jo Siffert in the 1968 French GP - I think you can find this on the LAT site in the archive section.

My assumption when I wrote the article some 6 years ago ( Blimey how time flies ! ) was that this was the left hander on the return leg where Ireland had his shunt for two reasons.

a) He didn't specify Sanson which is the only other left hander on the run from Nouveau Monde to Gresil

b) There is very steep drop into the valley on the outside of this un-named corner whereas there isn't at Sanson. This is supported by the map link here

http://www.lugnutsra...enarealarge.jpg

If anyone can confirm or deny the above I would be most grateful !!

Chris

LAT that's part of Haymarket as well isn't it? Here's a link to that Hill/Siffert photograph:

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/*2PV_050463

Any reason why it couldn't be this corner rather than Sanson?



Wales 11 England 9

Originally posted by Doug Nye
It was notorious since it was deep and unguarded and was a much-discussed place at which "you wouldn't want to go off..." - most paid heed, and avoided paying a visit.

In the film "The Time Between", Mike Hailwood was discussing a moment he had with some of his fellow drivers and mentioned (paraphrasing) the place where you fall off of the World.

As I said, Doug Nye in "Theme Lotus" says the corner was Sanson...
and in the Little Chris shot it is easy to imagine it being the right place.
http://edome.fi.sone...l/rouen/R13.jpg

Loss of brakes here would launch you off that bank (no armco) very effectively, and off into the scenery. The other corner just doesn't look like a place for the accident Innes described.

Originally posted by KJJ
Any reason why it couldn't be this corner rather than Sanson?

This picture is taken in the mid section of the so-called "sweepers" just past Six Freres.

Mark

Originally posted by LittleChris


b) There is very steep drop into the valley on the outside of this un-named corner whereas there isn't at Sanson.

Wouldn't it be great if someone local to the circuit could take photos of the outside of both corners...;)

Originally posted by LittleChris
b) There is very steep drop into the valley on the outside of this un-named corner whereas there isn't at Sanson. This is supported by the map link here

There isn't an un-named left-handed corner as far as I can remember.

The map - with all due respect - appears (to me at least) to be a little exaggerated at this part of the circuit. There is a left-handed curve, but the "left-hander" is Sanson.

Bang on David though. Somebody closer could confirm...

Mark

Originally posted by KJJ
LAT that's part of Haymarket as well isn't it? Here's a link to that Hill/Siffert photograph:

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/*2PV_050463

Any reason why it couldn't be this corner rather than Sanson?

1. The contemporary report in the local paper (Paris-Normandie), along with Roger Biot's excellent book - Rouen-les-Essarts 1950-1993 - state that the accident was at Sanson.
2. The left-hander between Nouveau Monde and Sanson is a curve, rather than a "sharp left-hand corner". I doubt it would have required much, if any, braking at 100mph, even in 1959.
3. Ireland claimed that he was seen "clearing a car parked behind the bank by eight to ten feet." I don't think there ever was any space to park a car on the outside of that curve.
I work only about 15 minutes from the circuit. I'm away doing other things in the coming week, but I'm prepared to see how fast my 23 year-old Alfasud Sprint Veloce will toddle through the "curve" within the next fortnight if anyone thinks that really necessary.
Having read the last two posts, I'll try and take the required photos in the next two weeks.

Very much look forward to hearing back from you you CJL.

Good man

Mark

Originally posted by MCS
Where did Bob Wollek have his big accident - anybody know?

Yes. At la Scierie. 28 June 1970. Last corner of the last lap of the F3 race. According to Jean-Pierre Jaussaud (Techno), who was involved in a big fight for the lead with Jean-Luc Salomon (Martini), Richard Scott (Brabham), Mike Beuttler (Brabham) and Bob Wolleck (Martini), he hung back when he realised that the other four were going to try and take la Scierie wheel to wheel, when there was only room for two cars side by side.
Salomon slid onto the verge, then hit Scott, and Wolleck was also invoved in the crash. Salomon was fatally injured, and Wolleck escaped with a broken arm.
James Hunt (Lotus), followed by Wilson Fittipaldi (Lotus), threaded through the wreckage to fill the first two places, with Beuttler third and Jaussaud fourth, happy to be alive, thanks to refusing to get involved in what he regarded as "madness".
Tragically, five laps earlier, Denis Dayan had apparently suffered a mechanical failure in his Grac, which shot over the barriers at Six Freres, where Jo Schlesser had been killed two years earlier. The car was totally destroyed, and Dayan died on 2 July, without recovering consciousness.

For some reason I had thought that Wollek had been more seriously injured...(although I wasn't sure where he had crashed in all honesty).

What a terrible race - even more so given Salomon's Lotus recruitment...

Mark

Originally posted by MCS
For some reason I had thought that Wollek had been more seriously injured

Mark

Wollek didn't have much luck at Rouen. In 1971 he wrote off a Rondel Brabham BT36 in practice, and in 1972 destroyed a Chevron B 21 at Six Freres during the October Paris 1000 kms. Each time he was uninjured. But after three write-offs in three years I think he felt that Rouen was not for him.

Originally posted by Kpy


Wollek didn't have much luck at Rouen. In 1971 he wrote off a Rondel Brabham BT36 in practice, I think he felt that Rouen was not for him.

Oh yeah ;)

June 27th 1971. It was to be the last race held on the current Rouen circuit. Rondel turned up with three cars for the first time. Bob Wollek having his own car at last, it had arrived the day before practice. ........ In the first official qualifying Bob Wollek went missing. His tyre had deflated on the straight down to the hair pin. The car hit the solid barrier spreading wreckage over a wide area. This was only Bob’s second accident and both had been at Rouen. Mike Ticehurst had to climb a tree to retrieve one of the wheels. ‘That car is going back under guarantee’ he quipped.