In one of the last issues of C&SC there is an article about racing Ginettas: among them stands Martin Jones' 1969 G17 Formula 4. I've never heard of such series (all I know is that it was very shortlived), and all I've obtained googleing around is something about a Scandinavian championship of the late 90s for ageing and de-tuned F3 cars...and it's definitely not what I was looking for!
Could someone provide informations and pictures about this ill-fated series?
Thanks!
Formula 4
Started by
Teapot
, Jan 09 2005 13:38
42 replies to this topic
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#2
JohnB
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Posted 09 January 2005 - 14:49
There's some footage of Formula 4 cars at Castle Combe in 1967 in the British Pathe archive - if you go to http://www.britishpathe.com/index.php and search for "formula four" it'll find it and you can preview the film or stills from it.
No technical info in it though, just that they were "scaled down versions of racing cars with motorcycle engines".
No technical info in it though, just that they were "scaled down versions of racing cars with motorcycle engines".
#3
billthekat
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Posted 09 January 2005 - 15:00
The Formula Racing Association also created a "Formula 4/ Formula IV" which was a development of the 500cc F3 with the inclusion of larger engines and other technical specs. I have them somewhere, plus thay appeared in the FRA columns in SCG.
#4
jph
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Posted 09 January 2005 - 15:30
Started in the mid-sixties for single seaters with initially (IIRC) two classes, for 350cc and 650cc motorcycle engines, main chassis providers being Vixen and Walker. Cars were notoriously unreliable, later developed into class for (?) sub-one litre single seaters - as per the then-current F3, but without the single carb/pushrod valve restriction. Imp engines were the ones to have.
#5
David Beard
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Posted 09 January 2005 - 15:56
Didn't Tom Barnard promote some kind of motor cycle engined formula in the 60s? Was that F4? I seem to recall a liitle car with a Villiers Starmaker engine or similar.
#7
Coogar
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Posted 09 January 2005 - 22:37
F4 in its first incarnation was for 250cc single seaters, with the Villiers Starmaker engine prominent.
Chaais on offer initially were the Johnny Walker JW4 and an odd nearly-kart from Tecno featuring (iirc) a rear subframe containing the engine, rear axle etc, all of which was suspended and 'hinged' from somewhere behind the base of the drivers seat.
Subsequently engines up to 650cc (i.e. Triumph twin) were admitted, at which point the Vixen became prominent. Ultimately 1.0 litre engines (Hillman Imp) became the thing to have, at which point meaningful grids began to appear.
Johnny Walker himself, a Gloucestershire man described as an 'industrialist' some reports, took to hill climbing with various versions of his creation.
I seem to recall that at the time his road car was a Zagato Aston Martin BD4GT.
At the time it all began I was living fairly close to his factory, and, as a possible customer, once got a test in one of the Villers-powered cars at Castle Combe. It wasn't very exciting.
I didn't buy one, and got myself an old Lotus 18 instead (for £450 !!)
This would have been a really smart move had I not sold it a couple of years later for half that amount.........
Chaais on offer initially were the Johnny Walker JW4 and an odd nearly-kart from Tecno featuring (iirc) a rear subframe containing the engine, rear axle etc, all of which was suspended and 'hinged' from somewhere behind the base of the drivers seat.
Subsequently engines up to 650cc (i.e. Triumph twin) were admitted, at which point the Vixen became prominent. Ultimately 1.0 litre engines (Hillman Imp) became the thing to have, at which point meaningful grids began to appear.
Johnny Walker himself, a Gloucestershire man described as an 'industrialist' some reports, took to hill climbing with various versions of his creation.
I seem to recall that at the time his road car was a Zagato Aston Martin BD4GT.
At the time it all began I was living fairly close to his factory, and, as a possible customer, once got a test in one of the Villers-powered cars at Castle Combe. It wasn't very exciting.
I didn't buy one, and got myself an old Lotus 18 instead (for £450 !!)
This would have been a really smart move had I not sold it a couple of years later for half that amount.........
#9
Teapot
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Posted 10 January 2005 - 11:17
Thank you all... (in particular, the link provided by Vitesse2 revealed itself as very useful) 
I'd like to know something more about the Tecno chassis, as the description given by Coogar seems very interesting: is there anyone with pictures of the car out there?
I'd like to know something more about the Tecno chassis, as the description given by Coogar seems very interesting: is there anyone with pictures of the car out there?
#10
Vitesse2
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Posted 10 January 2005 - 11:31
I think the 250cc F4 was also run in Italy, which explains the Tecno connection. They built European Championship-winning karts in the mid-60s, so it was probably a natural progression - bigger wheels and more bodywork on a slightly scaled-up chassis? Hodges also says they went on to build Formula 850 cars in Italy and it was from these that the first F3 Tecnos evolved.
#11
Darren Galpin
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Posted 10 January 2005 - 11:35
The 750MC have a formula 4 championship which is still running today. Regs can be viewed http://www.750mc.co......Formula 4.pdf
#12
ian senior
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Posted 10 January 2005 - 12:02
Originally posted by David Beard
Didn't Tom Barnard promote some kind of motor cycle engined formula in the 60s? Was that F4? I seem to recall a liitle car with a Villiers Starmaker engine or similar.
That was Formula 6. It emerged in about 1968, as F4 was moving up to the Imp engined stuff. Presumably Tom Barnard saw a gap in the market. I don't think it ever really went "national"; most of the races took place in the south of England, and not on proper circuits - they were held at places like Blackbushe airfield. The cars looked a bit primitive, and used kart-sized wheels, but no doubt they did the job of providing low-cost racing for the competitors. Races were organised under the auspices of the "Junior Racing Car Club", which I joined, being relatively junior at the time, but being stuck oop North at t'time I never got to see the cars in action.
#13
Coogar
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Posted 10 January 2005 - 12:09
If I'm right, both JW4 and Tecno chassis were shown at one of the early Racing Car Shows ('65 or'66 ?). The JW4, though, was a better-looking job......
I wonder if any originals (of either marque) survive..........
I wonder if any originals (of either marque) survive..........
#14
TonyCotton
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Posted 11 January 2005 - 13:32
There should be a few JW's surviving as there were one or two around when modern 500 hillclimbing got going in the mid 1980's and I don't imagine they were subsequently scrapped. They performed remarkably creditably against the Jedis. A chap called Rod Pickup from Lancashire was quite keen on them and tried to resurrect some series for 650 historics - I think he had something called a Braham (NOT Brabham!!).
A Tecno was used in hillclimbing in 1984 by Tim Cameron. I remember the rear wheel complete with hub parting company between Pardon and the Esses and sailing majestically into the undergrowth, fortunately with no injury. The car was rebuilt and later owned IIRC by Alan Flavell.
The Formula 4 of the 1960's was pushed quite heavily by Johnny Walker, a plastics machinery magnate from Gloucestershire. His designer and development engineer was David Peers who went on to design many other hillclimb cars, mainly bike engined. David's story was in the Hillclimb & Sprint Association's Speedscene magazine a few years ago. I know 'cos I wrote it..
I think the reason F4 (which morphed into 750MC's catch all cheap single seater category) failed in its earlier incarnations was that few wanted a Villiers or Triumph powered single seater when a Cortina powered one (ie FF) was available. Likewise in recent years the success of Formula Jedi and motorcycle powered cars in Monoposto is due to cheap reliable Japanese 4 cyclinder bike engines. Lower formulae like "Cheap" and "Reliable".....
A Tecno was used in hillclimbing in 1984 by Tim Cameron. I remember the rear wheel complete with hub parting company between Pardon and the Esses and sailing majestically into the undergrowth, fortunately with no injury. The car was rebuilt and later owned IIRC by Alan Flavell.
The Formula 4 of the 1960's was pushed quite heavily by Johnny Walker, a plastics machinery magnate from Gloucestershire. His designer and development engineer was David Peers who went on to design many other hillclimb cars, mainly bike engined. David's story was in the Hillclimb & Sprint Association's Speedscene magazine a few years ago. I know 'cos I wrote it..
I think the reason F4 (which morphed into 750MC's catch all cheap single seater category) failed in its earlier incarnations was that few wanted a Villiers or Triumph powered single seater when a Cortina powered one (ie FF) was available. Likewise in recent years the success of Formula Jedi and motorcycle powered cars in Monoposto is due to cheap reliable Japanese 4 cyclinder bike engines. Lower formulae like "Cheap" and "Reliable".....
#15
h4887
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Posted 11 January 2005 - 20:23
Somewhere I have an original sales leaflet for the Johnny Walker JW4 but sadly, extensive searching has failed to reveal it.
Here instead is another Ginetta G17 F4. This was a very well known car on the hills in the 70's, in the hands of Peter Voigt. It's now run by Lister Noble in the Ginetta O.C. Speed Championship.
Geoff
Here instead is another Ginetta G17 F4. This was a very well known car on the hills in the 70's, in the hands of Peter Voigt. It's now run by Lister Noble in the Ginetta O.C. Speed Championship.
Geoff
#16
Cirrus
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 12:26
I wonder if any originals (of either marque) survive..........
It would appear that at least one JW4 exists
http://www.racecarsd...?id=16061&cat=9
I think Len Selby has a dismantled Tecno for sale on his site.
Of course, if we're talking late-seventies F4, dare I mention the Cirrus 004?
#17
Mallory Dan
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 13:39
Alan, as I've said before on here, the Cirrus was a lovely looking little thing, very RT1 like I thought. What about the Ring, any pics of that anyone ?
#18
Teapot
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 13:40
Originally posted by h4887
Here instead is another Ginetta G17 F4. This was a very well known car on the hills in the 70's, in the
hands of Peter Voigt. It's now run by Lister Noble in the Ginetta O.C. Speed Championship.
It looks a lot different from the G17 F4 published on C&SC last month: did it start its life in that form or was it revamped for hill climbs (apart from the beam splitter, obviously)?
#19
Samas M.
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 13:45
Air cooled bike engine maybe? Or perhaps the original front radiator replaced by something small and mounted out of sight on the right hand side?
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#20
Tim Murray
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 14:12
The revised nose was designed by Tom McMillan, who owned the car after Peter Voigt and campaigned it very successfully in Scotland.Originally posted by Teapot
It looks a lot different from the G17 F4 published on C&SC last month: did it start its life in that form or was it revamped for hill climbs (apart from the beam splitter, obviously)?
#21
Stephen W
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 16:02
The Ginetta still runs the IMP engine and you will notice the RW on the nose which indicates the long ownership of Russ Ward who ran it for himself and then his sons.
With a continuous Hillclimbing History going back to the 1970s this little car is one of the best documented hillclimb cars around
.
With a continuous Hillclimbing History going back to the 1970s this little car is one of the best documented hillclimb cars around
.
#22
h4887
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 20:39
Originally posted by Teapot
It looks a lot different from the G17 F4 published on C&SC last month: did it start its life in that form or was it revamped for hill climbs (apart from the beam splitter, obviously)?
I think the wings and modified bodywork date back to 1971.
Martin Jones hasn't had his car long so the two of them have only met once, so far, with honours about even.
Roll on Loton Park in March!
Geoff Butcher
#23
Bonde
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Posted 12 January 2005 - 21:03
Cirrus,
Any chance of you posting a few pictures of Cirrus 004 - and perhaps telling us a bit about the design and fabrication of it?
Any chance of you posting a few pictures of Cirrus 004 - and perhaps telling us a bit about the design and fabrication of it?
#24
Cirrus
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 18:27
Here are a couple of pictures of Cirrus 004 - I wrote a brief description of its construction earlier, but it seems to have gone AWOL from my PC. I'll try and find it and add it later
In the marshalling area at Mallory 1978
Leading off the line (it didn't last long!) at Silverstone 1979
In the marshalling area at Mallory 1978
Leading off the line (it didn't last long!) at Silverstone 1979
#25
Stephen W
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 19:15
There seems to be more than a hint of DELTA about Cirrus, or was it the other way round? 
#26
Mallory Dan
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 19:22
Originally posted by Stephen W
There seems to be more than a hint of DELTA about Cirrus, or was it the other way round?
No Steve, surely much more like an RT1 than a Delta ?? Very nice whatever, and aren't there some good old cars on that F4 grid.
#27
David Beard
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 19:38
Originally posted by Cirrus
Here are a couple of pictures of Cirrus 004 - I wrote a brief description of its construction earlier, but it seems to have gone AWOL from my PC. I'll try and find it and add it later
Does it really have a Ralt nose and March wheels, or just similar?
#28
Cirrus
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 20:38
This'll have to be brief - I've got my hands full with a stripper at the moment (hot air variety, unfortunately).
Yes, March wheels and uprights at the front, Chevron at the rear. The Ralt factory was just down the road from where I lived, so there was a ready supply of "previously enjoyed" bodywork. The oil tank was made for me by Maurice Gomm (for £15!), the fuel tank was an unused March 701 seat tank (£10), but the rest was down to my dad and me. My father sold sheet metal machine tools at the time, so a monocoque was the logical choice (and much quicker to build). We made two sets of all the "bendable" bits, like wishbones and noseframes, and had everything nickel plated or anodised - we didn't want to look homebrewed.
The reason for the compromises on uprights and bodywork were time constraints - we were determined to get the car built during the off season of 77/78, and bodywork is very time-consuming. The whole thing took six months to complete (we achieved our goal in making the first round of the 78 championship). 78 was a sorting year, but the car went really well in 79, finishing third in the championship (with 100% reliability - not bad for an MAE!), and supplying a fund of great memories.
My most vivid memories of the build itself, were spending every evening and weekend in a freezing cold garage, turning up bushes on a freezing cold lathe, and RSI from a handheld pop rivet gun.
Suffused with F3 ambitions, I sold the Cirrus to Iain Rowley (still a great mate), who raced it with a 1300 engine. Sadly the best either of us achieved were second places, but we still reminisce about those F4 days with great affection.
I think it was eventually chopped up for some Super Saloon project - such is life...............
Yes, March wheels and uprights at the front, Chevron at the rear. The Ralt factory was just down the road from where I lived, so there was a ready supply of "previously enjoyed" bodywork. The oil tank was made for me by Maurice Gomm (for £15!), the fuel tank was an unused March 701 seat tank (£10), but the rest was down to my dad and me. My father sold sheet metal machine tools at the time, so a monocoque was the logical choice (and much quicker to build). We made two sets of all the "bendable" bits, like wishbones and noseframes, and had everything nickel plated or anodised - we didn't want to look homebrewed.
The reason for the compromises on uprights and bodywork were time constraints - we were determined to get the car built during the off season of 77/78, and bodywork is very time-consuming. The whole thing took six months to complete (we achieved our goal in making the first round of the 78 championship). 78 was a sorting year, but the car went really well in 79, finishing third in the championship (with 100% reliability - not bad for an MAE!), and supplying a fund of great memories.
My most vivid memories of the build itself, were spending every evening and weekend in a freezing cold garage, turning up bushes on a freezing cold lathe, and RSI from a handheld pop rivet gun.
Suffused with F3 ambitions, I sold the Cirrus to Iain Rowley (still a great mate), who raced it with a 1300 engine. Sadly the best either of us achieved were second places, but we still reminisce about those F4 days with great affection.
I think it was eventually chopped up for some Super Saloon project - such is life...............
#29
Bonde
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 21:12
Excellent stuff, Alan. Thanks for the pics and info. 'Tis just too bad she is no more...
Did you ever find out whether it was the car or the driver that enabled the good results?
It must've been great being around at a time when a guy could still build his own monocoque single seater and race it competitively. Where can you do that nowadays - in Formula Vee, perhaps?
Out of curiosity, why did you call it 'Cirrus'?
I worked for Nick Crossley at Delta in early 1983 - he had competed very succesfully in F4 (also being a champion in the early to mid-seventies in an Ensign, IIRC, before aquiring The Horseless Carriage Company of Hove, aka Delta). I suppose you know him? He's now doing quite well in historic F5000.
Being a sucker for seventies home-built single seaters - do you still have any drawings or photos of the Cirrus chassis during the building stage? (No rush).
#30
Cirrus
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 21:26
There are some detailed photos of the completed car in my dad's loft - I'll try to get hold of them.
Iain Rowley, to whom I sold the Cirrus, now runs Delta Motorsport, and keeps the remaining Deltas (there are quite a few) running by supplying spares and bodywork etc.
It's a small world.....
No special reason for choosing the name Cirrus - I just liked the sound of it.
Iain Rowley, to whom I sold the Cirrus, now runs Delta Motorsport, and keeps the remaining Deltas (there are quite a few) running by supplying spares and bodywork etc.
It's a small world.....
No special reason for choosing the name Cirrus - I just liked the sound of it.
#31
David Beard
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 21:35
Originally posted by Cirrus
No special reason for choosing the name Cirrus - I just liked the sound of it.
Sounds fine to me...no need to cloud the issue with any explanation, eh?
#32
Bonde
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 21:55
Alan, small world indeed!
Iain might be intersted in the cutaway drawing I did of the last ever Delta model in 83 - it's on my website (check in in my Profile) under 'Gallery'.
Iain might be intersted in the cutaway drawing I did of the last ever Delta model in 83 - it's on my website (check in in my Profile) under 'Gallery'.
#33
Cirrus
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 22:54
I assume, from your details, Bonde, that you live in Denmark. Let me know if you're in the UK for any historic racing (HSCC, Formula Junior, etc) this year, maybe a little "hyggelig" is in order?
Nice drawings, by the way.
Nice drawings, by the way.
#34
Bonde
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Posted 13 January 2005 - 23:53
Thanks, Alan - I'd love to go to some historic event in the UK sometime in the not too distant future - not least to Goodwood...I'll let you know if I ever do come over.
#35
h4887
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Posted 16 January 2005 - 19:46
Originally posted by Stephen W
With a continuous Hillclimbing History going back to the 1970s this little car is one of the best documented hillclimb cars around
Here are a couple of pics of Peter Voigt in the G17, with and without wings. Taken with the author's permission from 'Ginetta, The Illustrated History' by John Rose.
Geoff
#36
David Birchall
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Posted 17 January 2005 - 05:29
A friend had a nos JW4 untill fairly recently! Nos as in, never raced or driven. If there is any interest I will try to get him to post a picture of it. We discussed this and another F4 about a year ago.
David B
David B
#37
Tom MacMillan
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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:25
Thank you for the mention Tim!Originally posted by Tim Murray
The revised nose was designed by Tom McMillan, who owned the car after Peter Voigt and campaigned it very successfully in Scotland.
It was indeed me who re-designed the nose on the ex-Peter Voigt Ginetta G17.
Although the “nose job” has been much admired it does not perhaps appeal to the purist and I can fully understand that.
I bought the car from Sandy Hutcheon in Cheltenham late in 1978 for the 1979 season. It was my old friend Russ Ward who let me know it was for sale and in later years he was to buy the car.
After 2 great seasons with the car in Scotland and visits to Shelsey, Prescott and Harewood I sold it to Richard Homer who I think may have sold it to Russ. Russ sold it to Lister Noble a few years ago.
I was fortunate to meet Peter Voigt at Doune last September. He was introduced to me by Alex Brown who also ran a Ginetta G17 with David Fyfe. During the conversation with Peter, Alex and David, it was mentioned that somebody had “butchered” the nose of the car in the past. I had to hold my hand up.
My wife and I have very happy memories of “Ginny”.
#38
Paul Rochdale
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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:31
At the opening of the Lydden Hill circuit in Kent, back in the 1960s, bike racer Derek Minter drove a Walker F4 around the circuit on a sort of parade lap, and I wondered at the time if he intended to go to four wheels once his bike racing days were over. He didn't.
#39
David McKinney
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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:37
My memory of 46 or 47 yeaars ago tells me Derek Minter did do an FJ race or two with a Lotus 18
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#40
delta
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 16:54
The Cirrus was a fabulous car , i have many fond memories in F4. I very nearly won the opening F4 race in 1982 at Castle Combe. I had a freind build the 1300 ford engines in those days and the deal was to spit the prize money in half and he would build and supply the engine foc. Wow what a deal ! But read on!!!. I was on the front row for the race ,started, cleared off into the distance only to run out of fuel on the last lap.My freind the engine builder was convinced we would only need so much,Ah Ha. Still finnished 3rd and got fastest lap. Next to Silverstone and another 3rd in the wet so not a bad start top the season, But did not finnish another race that year, engine blow up after engine blow up. So sadly the Cirrus never did win but i gained a great freind in Alan and still too this day he is supporting the Delta crew and my partner in starting the Historic ff2000 assosiation. As for the Cirrus she ended up as a Toyota Starlet in special saloons which is sad but we all have to move on. 
#41
Cirrus
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Posted 09 November 2007 - 19:29
Yeah - the best I did was a couple of seconds as well.......
#42
ybee02
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Posted 17 February 2009 - 20:58
There is a Formula 5 in Russia, it's on the website with results from the USSR, but I can't find the exact link.
P.S sorry for the delya and the bump.
P.S sorry for the delya and the bump.
#43
Alexander M
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Posted 19 December 2009 - 00:04
There is a Formula 5 in Russia, it's on the website with results from the USSR, but I can't find the exact link.
P.S sorry for the delya and the bump.
The site must be the one of TNF member Alexey Rogachev, can't think of any other with Formula 5 mentioned. Sadly, we have to say that there WAS Formula 5 in Russia (or, better, in Soviet Union) as it was long ago. With all this said, I must mention that F5 was not a 'junior' class, but something close to FLibre (for some years actually being it).
Edited by Alexander M, 19 December 2009 - 13:05.
