Wait just a second - Ruby leads!

We interrupt the Villeneuve bashing already in progress to bring you this special news bulletin: Barrichello currently leads Ferrari's 2005 championship bid. I repeat: Rubens Barrichello leads Michael Schumacher in the WDC.

Has this ever happenned before???

Somehow, lost among the media circus and BB frenzy surrounding JV's Sauber debut, this little morsel has seemingly managed to sneak in under everyone's radar.

My question is, how many points ahead of Schumacher does Rubens need to be, and how late into the season, before Ferrari get behind him as the team's WDC elect? Seems to me this is a golden opportunity for Rubens to put a little distance between himself and MS, maybe arrive at Imola with a healthy advantage over his teammate and get the full power of the reds behind him.

As I recall, in the aftermath of Austriagate there was much discussion about Ferrari's policies regarding team orders, teammates being allowed to race each other and the differing level of support given to each driver. I also seem to remember a quote from Todt something along the lines of "Michael gets the support because he is ahead in the points - if Rubens was to lead the title chase he would be considerd number one and Michael would be asked to help him in the same way."

Now, clearly it's very early days, but if (BIG if) Rubens can open up his lead even more heading into Europe, and given the apparent level of competion from Renault (and possibly McLaren), do you lot see Ferrari getting behind Barrichello in earnest, or will poor ol' Ruby get the shaft yet again?

Whaddyall figger?

I'm gonna have to go with "the shaft"

It does seem strange, doesn't it. According to many on this forum, who claim to know what is in Rubens' contract without having seen it, (some kind of magical powers, presumably), Rubens is contractually obliged to finish behind his German teammate. Presumably, having idiotically found himself ahead of Schumacher, and then Schumacher's race being terminated, Rubens was contractually driving around contractually looking for an opportunity to contractually have a collision with another car, so he too could park in the Ferrari garage (just contractually behind Schumacher's car, of course).

Doesn't matter.

Irvine lead Schumacher after Melbourne in 1998 but was team ordered to let Michael past in the next race.

Michael is by far the best as everyone knows and more importantly as Ferrari know better, if they can only bring one new car to a race then Michael should have it regardless of cicumstances allowing Rubens to have more points.

I remember Rubens was leading some year ago too, but then at Brazil he did not manage to finish. I believe this time his lead will last a little longer.

Er, I would imagine Ferrari would back both their drivers as much as possible, giving any edge to the one most likely to bring them the WDC. Why would they do otherwise?

Whats wrong with this thread?

Originally posted by karlth
Doesn't matter.

Irvine lead Schumacher after Melbourne in 1998 but was team ordered to let Michael past in the next race.

So, are you suggesting that Ferrari put MS before Ferrari?

I see some mysterious fuel pickup problems in RB's future

Originally posted by karlth
Doesn't matter.

Irvine lead Schumacher after Melbourne in 1998 but was team ordered to let Michael past in the next race.

Pretty much the same happened in France 99.

Originally posted by tbones
I see some mysterious fuel pickup problems in RB's future

Not for long... no doubt Rubens will be asked to use some bizarre pitstop strategies that put him in a good position to assist Michael, but otherwise ruin his race. However, if the same situation exists by China, thinking might change.

Originally posted by tbones
I see some mysterious fuel pickup problems in RB's future

There is some limit to that. If Michael just keep cracking Ferrari surely would like some constructors points and possibly a worldchampion in Rubens

In the 4 seasons that Irvine was Schumacher's teammate, Irvine had a better start than Schumacher in 3 of those seasons(1996, 1998, 1999). So the fact that Irvine lead Michael Schumacher in the WDC at the beggining of the year in 3 of the 4 seasons that they were teammates does not make me feel surprised at all that RB has more points than MS at this stage of the season because it already happened 3 times when Irvine was Schumacher's teammate.

Originally posted by Group B


So, are you suggesting that Ferrari put MS before Ferrari?

Of course not. Logic dictates that Rubens won't be able to sustain a challenge all year long, he never has done before and if they wanted two WDC calibur drivers they'd have hired a second one a long time ago. Therefore if Ruby leads MS in Malaysia it's still more logical to order Michael passed because over the course of 19 races chances are he will anyway.

Originally posted by karlth
Doesn't matter.

Irvine lead Schumacher after Melbourne in 1998 but was team ordered to let Michael past in the next race.

Irvine lead Schumacher after Melbourne 1996, Melbourne 1998 and Melbourne 1999. Despite this Irvine never won the WDC. So having a better start than MS does not mean that his teammate will win the WDC....

Originally posted by steel2005





Irvine lead Schumacher after Melbourne 1996, Melbourne 1998 and Melbourne 1999. Despite this Irvine never won the WDC. So having a better start than MS does not mean that his teammate will win the WDC....

Neither does Schumacher win when his teammates have better starts. That's the historical coincidence everyone should be worried with...

Cut out with the #1 driver bullcrap. If Rubens can drive better than Michael he will win. He only have himself to blame if he fails to do so

BTW I believe Rubens has gotten very close to Michael and If michael has a few more bad races Rubens can and will beat him

Michael had gear shift problems and was stuck at the end of the grid at albert park 1999, Eddie Irvine went on to win it, but Michael put on some strong drives before his silverstone accident and was shaping up for the title, this is the longest f1 season we've had, 18 races left, that's alot, too early to say Rubens this, or Michael that, but be crazy to write off Schuey yet.

Originally posted by HBoss


Neither does Schumacher win when his teammates have better starts. That's the historical coincidence everyone should be worried with...

Someone else went on about history when Michael didn't win the first 3 races of 2003, he went on to -rewrite history there. So I don't think, this teamate better starts, mean no title thing works, there's patterns everywhere, don't mean it's forever, and generally a championship isn't won or lost in one race, we got 19 to think about, 1 down, and 18 left, 18 races that comprimised the total of 2004, consider it MS giving everyone a headstart, if malaysia goes wrong, then perhaps things look very tough all of a sudden, but he's MS, his standards, we expect as usual, results. In theory, lets say he didn't win the title, he'll be fired up for alot of the races when he's trouble, and that's for our entertainment, lhe's already achieved what no other f1 driver has done before, all this is a bonus, if things didn't go right for him, and he still put up a fight, and say Rubens won it, I have no problem with that, but then it's Rubens title to lose and win, he's got a great start, can he be consistent for 18 races more.


Lets also see it like this, MS retired in monaco 2004, and Rubens got what, a podium, 3rd place I think, 6 points, just think of it as Monaco as the first race LOL, until the season continues. Rubens is about 2 points better off then MS then Monaco 2004, and Michael won the title at Spa!! with monza left, where he's always strong, Spa where Rubens is usually behind, Rubens didn't lite up silverstone last year compared to 2003, MS did, likely Michael won't retire from Monaco this year lets say, from the back of the grid at China last year, bad race, Japan, out in front, domination, MS just seems very strong for this season, looking at last season, and last season he still let some races go off his pocket.

He could end up winning the title again with races to spare, at the worst, he'll be digging it out to the last race, depending on this renault, mclaren charge, Rubens may have more to worry about then Michael this season.

For Michael, Rubens has taken points off Alonso, Kimi, Montoya, maybe MS see's Alonso and Kimi more threatening then Rubens, so he might think, it'll balance out eventually, he himself will take points off Rubens likely.

There's alot of the drivers for Rubens to be careful of.




Another thing, the wet/dry quali of albert park put Rubens ahead of Michael on the grid, we haven't seen Rubens beat Michael in a straight fight there, he was trying to last year, and lost, so Rubens hasn't suddenly gotten faster then MS, he's gonna have to be better in every department, unless he has really goodluck in qualis.

Originally posted by RDM
It does seem strange, doesn't it. According to many on this forum, who claim to know what is in Rubens' contract without having seen it, (some kind of magical powers, presumably), Rubens is contractually obliged to finish behind his German teammate. Presumably, having idiotically found himself ahead of Schumacher, and then Schumacher's race being terminated, Rubens was contractually driving around contractually looking for an opportunity to contractually have a collision with another car, so he too could park in the Ferrari garage (just contractually behind Schumacher's car, of course).

Hey Genius, did you watch Austria 2002?

When Ecclestone, Jean Todt, other team principals and drivers hint at it, then it's pretty much a given.

Ferrari wants the WDC - I don't think it really matters who gets it. If you ask Ferrari, Rubens is MUCH more liked at Ferrari in comparison to Schumacher - but he's the one who'll deliver, and they all know it. So it's possible that for the first few races, it's open season, and if Schumacher has a considerable lead in the championship, Rubens is instructed to finish 2nd.

Originally posted by Bluesmoke


Hey Genius, did you watch Austria 2002?

When Ecclestone, Jean Todt, other team principals and drivers hint at it, then it's pretty much a given.

Ferrari wants the WDC - I don't think it really matters who gets it. If you ask Ferrari, Rubens is MUCH more liked at Ferrari in comparison to Schumacher - but he's the one who'll deliver, and they all know it. So it's possible that for the first few races, it's open season, and if Schumacher has a considerable lead in the championship, Rubens is instructed to finish 2nd.

Austria 2002 showed that Ferrari back the guy who's in a much stronger postion in the championship, it didn't prove they back MS. It also dispproved the conspiracy theories about regular hidden team orders with dodgy pitshops, slow laps, minor offs, engine problems, etc. That team order was clearly the crass and clumsy act of people who weren't used to it.

Originally posted by Group B


That team order was clearly the crass and clumsy act of people who weren't used to it.

Sorry mate, but that one was over the top!!

Originally posted by race addicted


Sorry mate, but that one was over the top!!

It's no good just putting a laughicon ra, the fact is that if you wish to promote the conspiracy you have to ask why Ferrari would intentionally do something so cretinous if they had a plethora of well drilled clandestine tricks up their sleeve.

Well, for starters I think they took a while realizing how fast Barrichello really was that day, and that he would actually beat Schumacher. So the order just came late, and in addition, they probably discussed it back and forth, as it was very early.

But really, what you wrote there is sig-material. Ferrari know better than anyone how to put a team order forward, hidden ones or even visible to bats.

Actually didn't they want to do it rather more subversely but Rubens was proving a point? I thought Ross Brawn told Rubens to let Michael close and pass a long time before the final lap.

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Actually didn't they want to do it rather more subversely but Rubens was proving a point? I thought Ross Brawn told Rubens to let Michael close and pass a long time before the final lap.

Wasn't the order given well before the last lap and RB was just sticking it to Ross and Jean? I could be wrong here. Clarification, anyone?

Their contracts would say exactly the same thing: "You'll do as you're told". Therefore Ferrari get to make the decision.

I would say forget about it until half way through, then look at it again.

Regarding RB leading the way for Ferrari, its a long time coming. Finally some early-season luck goes his way. I hope it can continue just a bit more, to see Todt's face...

Even if MS win Malaysia and RB comes second RB will still lead MS by 6 points, which leads us to the 3rd race of the season with MS behind.

Ironically, this is also (probably) Ferrari's toughest year in terms of rivals (Renault, McLaren and Williams) being close enough to make them sweat, at least a bit. So, lets hope some of these guys can step in MS's foot some more!

Shock horror ! Michael Schumacher will beat Ruben Barrichello this season and I am definitely not a psychic. Next topic please.

Originally posted by Group B


So, are you suggesting that Ferrari put MS before Ferrari?

No. Ferrari focus totally on Schumacher so he can win for Ferrari.

Ferrari focus totally on Schumacher because he is the fastest driver they have and he has the proven ability to sustain a championship season. His teammates are there just to make up the numbers.

Originally posted by F1 Tor.


Wasn't the order given well before the last lap and RB was just sticking it to Ross and Jean? I could be wrong here. Clarification, anyone?

Litle history Once there was a 3WDC driving for Ferrari who after a while got disillusioned by the lack of progress by the team, so when he begin to criticise them publicly they fired him. Even though he didn't cause the team as much embarrassment as RB supposedly have caused and even though he was so close of ending their decade long drought of WDC wins.
Now RB is driving for Ferrari and infact got resigned(twise?) after that episode, So do you actualy think he would still be there after bringing such a "needless"(sticking it would qualify as such) PR nightmare to the team?

Originally posted by Deeq
So do you actualy think he would still be there after bringing such a "needless"(sticking it would qualify as such) PR nightmare to the team?

Didn't they offer him a new contract just weeks later?

Originally posted by Group B


It's no good just putting a laughicon ra, the fact is that if you wish to promote the conspiracy you have to ask why Ferrari would intentionally do something so cretinous if they had a plethora of well drilled clandestine tricks up their sleeve.

Can you explain to me why after Austria '01 when Rubens had to give up second to Michael, Jean Todt stated that had it been for the win Ferrari would not of asked him to move over. But the very next year they did exactly that.

Originally posted by Corners
Shock horror ! Michael Schumacher will beat Ruben Barrichello this season and I am definitely not a psychic. Next topic please.

You never know bro. The way Michael drove at Melbourne was not impressive. If he ends up crashing and hurting himself for a few GPs like he did in 99 then I can definately see Rubens as the title fav.

Fisichella will win the title. He started on pole and won the first race of the season. In the past 55 years only 3 times the driver that started on pole and won the first race of the season didn't win the title. Also everytime a driver started on pole and won at Melbourne he won the title that year. The last time an Italian won the title, there was an all Italian front row starting at the first race of the season like this year.

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Didn't they offer him a new contract just weeks later?

Yes I believe so(which makes this "RB made sure the world did knew it ie stick it on them" less believable), hence my believe also on the team being totaly responsible on what happened ie RB & MS did as they told to the dot no more no less.
He was in the midle of contract renewal negotiations the last thing he would wanted to do was to openly demonstrate to the team such a blatant disloyalty toward them as some claim he did it. Rather than get an exyension he would have recieved in all likelyhood his P45.

BTW, I think it's hilarious that some of you think RB will win the title


RB needs a car like the F2002 or the F2004 to win the title... ONLY in those 2 years RB finished 2nd in the WDC. In 2000, 2001 and 2003 when Ferrari did not have a dominating car, RB finished 4th (in 2000 and 2003) and 3rd(in 2001) in the WDC being beaten by drivers who drove inferior cars to Ferrari. This year Ferrari will not have a dominating car like in 2002 and 2004 so forget about RB winning the title, he is not good enough to win it unless he has a dominating car which will not happen this year...

Originally posted by steel2005
BTW, I think it's hilarious that some of you think RB will win the title


RB needs a car like the F2002 or the F2004 to win the title... ONLY in those 2 years RB finished 2nd in the WDC. In 2000, 2001 and 2003 when Ferrari did not have a dominating car, RB finished 4th (in 2000 and 2003) and 3rd(in 2001) in the WDC being beaten by drivers who drove inferior cars to Ferrari. This year Ferrari will not have a dominating car like in 2002 and 2004 so forget about RB winning the title, he is not good enough to win it unless he has a dominating car which will not happen this year...

You haven't even seen the F2005 race yet!

Originally posted by Deeq


Yes I believe so(which makes this "RB made sure the world did knew it ie stick it on them" less believable), hence my believe also on the team being totaly responsible on what happened ie RB & MS did as they told to the dot no more no less.
He was in the midle of contract renewal negotiations the last thing he would wanted to do was to openly demonstrate to the team such a blatant disloyalty toward them as some claim he did it. Rather than get an exyension he would have recieved in all likelyhood his P45.

Well, that all seems logical enough, but I can't help visualizing scenes of Todt kneeling on his stool behind the pitwall during the closing laps, repeatedly pleading with Barrichello to move over; "Rubens, please, for ze championsheep, please let Michael pass!"

Does anybody else remember this, or did I dream it?

The F2005 will not be a dominating car like the F2002 and the F2004. It is impossible for Ferrari to put out a car like the F2002 and the F2004 every single season. Also the most important factor is that the F2005 will be the first car designed by Aldo Costa and NOT by Rory Byrne....

Originally posted by AF Prodrive

Well, that all seems logical enough, but I can't help visualizing scenes of Todt kneeling on his stool behind the pitwall during the closing laps, repeatedly pleading with Barrichello to move over; "Rubens, please, for ze championsheep, please let Michael pass!"

Does anybody else remember this, or did I dream it?

I remember quite well Ross Brawn (I thought, but maybe it was JT) commanding: "Let Michael pass for the championship!" - It's on record, even repeated...... (at least on Bernievision that day)
Ever since I've been waiting for that moment - "Let Rubens pass for the championship!"

Originally posted by steel2005
The F2005 will not be a dominating car like the F2002 and the F2004. It is impossible for Ferrari to put out a car like the F2002 and the F2004 every single season. Also the most important factor is that the F2005 will be the first car designed by Aldo Costa and NOT by Rory Byrne....

No one knows for sure if the F2005 will dominate. Let's wait and see. As for Aldo Costa, what's with the trepidation? Byrne was in the background overseeing everything and has stated Costa's done a fabulous job. I think it'll be a stunner. Whether it'll win like the F2002 and F2004 remains to be seen and you are correct, they are hard acts to follow but if anyone can do it, it's Ferrari.

Originally posted by Deeq


Yes I believe so(which makes this "RB made sure the world did knew it ie stick it on them" less believable), hence my believe also on the team being totaly responsible on what happened ie RB & MS did as they told to the dot no more no less.
He was in the midle of contract renewal negotiations the last thing he would wanted to do was to openly demonstrate to the team such a blatant disloyalty toward them as some claim he did it. Rather than get an exyension he would have recieved in all likelyhood his P45.

Actually I think they gave him the contract to keep him a happy camper as No.2. There was no mention of him being in contract renewal talks prior to Austria that I know of. Rubens is a very good no.2 to Schumacher, he picks up points for the WCC and doesn't really complain about doing it. Any other comparable driver to be invited to Maranello would require it was on equal footing - Schumacher often commends the teams harmony - losing Barrichello and replacing him with a competitive potentially destructive new driver would have been far more problematic.

In all honesty, Schumacher being the more consistent driver than Barrichello he will probably be legitimately ahead of Rubens in the points within a couple of races. While I love and admire Barrichello`s talent and ability, he unfortunately just isn`t in the same league.
Michael may be cosseted by his team and given preference over his team mates but he is still arguably one of the greatest and most complete driver ever to pedal and steer any F1 car in the history of the sport....

This means ALL Ferrari efforts must be directed at RB from now on. If MS is on pole this weekend he should be instructed to pull off the side of the track and let RB pass so as best to help RB win the DC. It's the only logical thing to do.

Originally posted by AF Prodrive

My question is, how many points ahead of Schumacher does Rubens need to be, and how late into the season, before Ferrari get behind him as the team's WDC elect?

7 WDC worth of points?

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Didn't they offer him a new contract just weeks later?

No, he just signed a new two-year contract immediately befor the Austria GP : .

Link

Originally posted by Clare


No, he just signed a new two-year contract immediately befor the Austria GP : .

Link

Ah, knew it was something, well I guess it makes even more sense, given that he'd just signed a contract that demanded he did.