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The lost generation of ex-drivers


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#1 Mohican

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 09:51

The thread on James Hunt made me think of the "lost generation" of ex-drivers; given that people like Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Reutemann (to name just a few) had high profile careers (in very different fields) after retiring from racing, what would people like Rindt, Siffert, Rodriguez, Peterson, Pace, Revson and Senna (again, to name just a few) have done ?

Any ideas ?

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#2 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 10:52

Some are easy - Senna would've kept care of his business, Jimmy Clark would've gone back to his farm.
Graham Hill would've probably kept combining TV & motorsport & probably would've been a more logical choice for a TV commentator.
Reventlow & Revlon may have worked in the family industry but......
Some of the others, I'm sure, would've stayed in motorsport.

The thing is, with life, opportunities only present themselves at certain times, and some of these drivers have found new opportunities when they retire. It really is impossible (and arguably futile) to guess in some cases :

#3 HistoricMustang

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 11:28

In a strange way I have always admired the guys (aka Rex White and others) that simply walked away from the sport for one reason or another.

Henry

#4 Gary Davies

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 11:36

Ronnie, at 61, would have won the DTM for the 5th year in a row! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

#5 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 11:45

Originally posted by Mohican
The thread on James Hunt made me think of the "lost generation" of ex-drivers; given that people like Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Reutemann (to name just a few) had high profile careers (in very different fields) after retiring from racing, what would people like Rindt, Siffert, Rodriguez, Peterson, Pace, Revson and Senna (again, to name just a few) have done ?

Any ideas ?


Rindt - well, he had a lot of business ideas. Sportswear, racing car shows, etc. I suspect he would've made another fortune in the designer-sportswear boom of the later 70s as that was one avenue he was apparently already exploring.

Senna - would've gone full-time into his charity work, I think. Probably would've occasionally sat in a car and set times that would make everyone realise who's the daddy - no need to go out and prove it in races.

Peterson - would've become like Hans Stuck. Drive anything, anywhere, for the sheer fun of it. Would've been formidable in GP Masters and would almost certainly still be racing almost full-time, probably over in sports cars in the States. Ronnie in an R8? Bring it on....

Revson - international playboy, probably with some connections to marketing in and out of the auto industry. Name occasionally in the gossip columns.

#6 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 11:52

A few more thoughts:

Jimmy - I don't think he would've stayed "just" a farmer for the rest of his life. Almost certainly would've stayed very involved with the BRDC, putting something back into the sport, and I think he might've been tempted back onto the special stages rather than the circuits, just for fun. Stuart Turner isn't going to let the chance of Roger Clark/Jim Clark in a pair of RS1600s go, is he?;) Remains a quiet and very private guy, but stays part of the Ford family and his appearances at Goodwood and so on (and at the odd historic clubbie with a Lotus Cortina) remain treasured.

Gilles - he'd never be far from cars, but I don't think he would've stayed in Europe after retiring from F1 in the late 80s. Back to Berthierville to tinker about with snowmobiles and mobile homes for fun for a few years, then the temptation gets too much -- a few years of an eventful but successful ChampCar career in the early 90s. Emmo vs Our Nige vs Gilles in Champcar? Remind me, what's that series in Europe with the little whiny cars?;) Probably still involved with promoting Canadian drivers and races.

Michele Alboreto - would still be racing to this day, almost certainly. Still part of the formidable Audi lineup, and probably doing "off" weekends anywhere else he could get a drive. A man who loved driving.

#7 BRG

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 12:02

Originally posted by petefenelon
Stuart Turner isn't going to let the chance of Roger Clark/Jim Clark in a pair of RS1600s go, is he?;)

Hmmm, as I recall, Turner was only too ready to squander Roger's talents and to give preference to a never-ending flow of new Finnish drivers. Many - most even - of these were indeed extremely good (Vatanen, Alen, Mikkola to name but a few). But as Roger Clark was never really allowed by Ford to show what he could do on the international scene, we will never know if they were better than him or not. And I doubt if even Jim Clark would have been enough to shake Turner's absolute certainty that Finns were automatically better drivers than Brits.

#8 Gary Davies

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 12:02

Originally posted by petefenelon
Jimmy - I don't think he would've stayed "just" a farmer for the rest of his life. Almost certainly would've stayed very involved with the BRDC, putting something back into the sport, and I think he might've been tempted back onto the special stages rather than the circuits, just for fun. Stuart Turner isn't going to let the chance of Roger Clark/Jim Clark in a pair of RS1600s go, is he?;) Remains a quiet and very private guy, but stays part of the Ford family and his appearances at Goodwood and so on (and at the odd historic clubbie with a Lotus Cortina) remain treasured.


Bravo! Why is it that such affectionate and thoughtful mentions of this man still bring a lump to the throat?

#9 ian senior

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 12:55

Bruce McLaren is another name that always brings a lump to my throat. Still a young man when he died (it's just that he seemed to have been around for ages), I reckon we would have seen lots of interesting and worthwhile things had he survived theGoodwood crash.

I think it's fair to say that he would probably have retired from F1 at the end of 1970, but carried on with Can Am for another 2 or 3 years - he loved the big powerful stuff, didn't he? No reason at all why the Bruce n'Denny Show couldn't have carried on for a while. He would certainly have continued to lead his team for a while, on both the managment and engineering sides, and almost certainly with a bent towards the latter. It would still have been very much a Kiwi team, with a continuing influx of engineers, mechanics and drivers from New Zealand. There's no reason at all why it should not have continued as a front line team for many years, but with a completely different atmosphere to the one prevailing since Ron Dennis took over.

Bruce was starting to take a great interest in road cars just before he died and I think we would have seen a long and honourable line of desirable McLaren sports cars over the years. No flights of fantasy like the car that eventually transpired under the McLaren name, but good solid down to earth engineering with lots of grunt and perfectly practical in everyday use. No bloody silly price tag either. Cars for those who want to use them and can, not stuff you stick in a museum to appreciate in value.

I would also like to think that Bruce would have tried to put something back into the sport by reinstigating something along the lines the NZ Driver to Europe scheme that helped him find a footing in what you might call the big time. We don't see too many NZ drivers on the world stage at the moment and I'm sure Bruce would have wanted to do his bit to encourage them.

And of course we would see him every year at Goodwood, having a whale of a time in a McLaren M8 and showing the youngsters how to do it.

#10 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 12:56

Originally posted by BRG
Hmmm, as I recall, Turner was only too ready to squander Roger's talents and to give preference to a never-ending flow of new Finnish drivers. Many - most even - of these were indeed extremely good (Vatanen, Alen, Mikkola to name but a few). But as Roger Clark was never really allowed by Ford to show what he could do on the international scene, we will never know if they were better than him or not. And I doubt if even Jim Clark would have been enough to shake Turner's absolute certainty that Finns were automatically better drivers than Brits.


Turner was a sharp commercial guy as well. If Jimmy comes along and asks very politely for a car to play with, there's soon going to be a phone call from Walter Hayes suggesting that it'd be a Very Good Idea Indeed...;)

#11 f1steveuk

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 12:57

Can you have imagined Clark in GP Masters?? Peterson probably, Stewart never!

Any comparision would be obscure, but in any other sport, some start teams, or run teams, or manage teams, some commentate, some start linked businesses, some vanish into obscurity, some through choice, others not. Some make money by just being!!

#12 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:01

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins

Graham Hill would've probably kept combining TV & motorsport & probably would've been a more logical


I think Graham would've stayed absolutely involved with his team at least into the 80s - he'd discovered a talent he thought was very special in Tony Brise, and Graham was an incredibly bankable name - the Hill/Brise combination would've been very central to the sport for most of the decade 1975-85 or so - and I'm sure that as well as racing seriously Graham would still be the life and soul of the party. I would guess that Graham probably wouldn't've sold out until the manufacturers really started sniffing around - mid-90s maybe, which would've put him in his mid-60s. From there on, of course, he becomes an obvious contender to replace Muddly Talker on the telly - after all he knows everyone, all the scams and all the stories of who did what at which party!

#13 f1steveuk

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:06

Originally posted by petefenelon


I think Graham would've stayed absolutely involved with his team at least into the 80s - he'd discovered a talent he thought was very special in Tony Brise, and Graham was an incredibly bankable name - the Hill/Brise combination would've been very central to the sport for most of the decade 1975-85 or so - and I'm sure that as well as racing seriously Graham would still be the life and soul of the party. I would guess that Graham probably wouldn't've sold out until the manufacturers really started sniffing around - mid-90s maybe, which would've put him in his mid-60s. From there on, of course, he becomes an obvious contender to replace Muddly Talker on the telly - after all he knows everyone, all the scams and all the stories of who did what at which party!


Quite right. Graham was first to see the advantages of a partnership with a bigger manufacturer (Alfa Romeo I'll grant you, and Bernie mucked that up, but to no real adavntage in the end), but he then started doing the rounds of asking a couple of manufacturers about engine supply, he could have used his name for sponsorship gathering for many years I feel.

#14 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:12

Originally posted by f1steveuk
Can you have imagined Clark in GP Masters?? Peterson probably, Stewart never!

Any comparision would be obscure, but in any other sport, some start teams, or run teams, or manage teams, some commentate, some start linked businesses, some vanish into obscurity, some through choice, others not. Some make money by just being!!


Jimmy and JYS - never. Even if it was (say) 15 years ago; Jimmy would probably have competed in anytihng he thought was fun but safe and I'm not sure he would ever have got back into a competitive single seater after retiring from F1; JYS wouldn't've touched it unless (A) he thought he was going to be ultra-competitive and (B) all the deals were in place.

Ronnie, Michele, Gilles, probably even Elio - you would have had to set up a 200-mile exclusion zone around the circuit to keep them away from something like Masters.

Ayrton wouldn't've touched it; not racing. He would've tooled over to Silverstone for the test day - great PR for the series - and set times that made it clear that he felt no need to race to show them he was quick.

(Elio de Angelis is an interesting 'what might have been' - a multi-talented and intelligent man, I think his career outside racing would've taken him to the top in whatever he chose to do afterwards, but I think he would've been one of those guys who could never quite get away . I see him doing at least the odd Le Mans....)

#15 David M. Kane

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:20

I doubt that Revson would have joined the business as his uncle had screwed his father out of his share of the business. The Revsons were NOT a family at peace with one another. Charles Revson was ruthless, in fact Helena Rubenstein hated him so much that she referred to him as "that man".
So Charles create a line called "That Man" that became a huge success and made her even more insane! :mad:

#16 Wolf

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:34

Ian, very nice train of thought, but I prefer the imaginary one where Bruce gets persuaded to lead FOCA... Now, there's an alternative course of history to ponder upon. :)

#17 D-Type

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:41

It's interesting to speculate, but who would have predicted that Jody Scheckter would end up doing what he does, and doing it in the USA?

#18 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:46

Originally posted by ian senior
Bruce McLaren is another name that always brings a lump to my throat. Still a young man when he died (it's just that he seemed to have been around for ages), I reckon we would have seen lots of interesting and worthwhile things had he survived theGoodwood crash.

I think it's fair to say that he would probably have retired from F1 at the end of 1970, but carried on with Can Am for another 2 or 3 years - he loved the big powerful stuff, didn't he? No reason at all why the Bruce n'Denny Show couldn't have carried on for a while. He would certainly have continued to lead his team for a while, on both the managment and engineering sides, and almost certainly with a bent towards the latter. It would still have been very much a Kiwi team, with a continuing influx of engineers, mechanics and drivers from New Zealand. There's no reason at all why it should not have continued as a front line team for many years, but with a completely different atmosphere to the one prevailing since Ron Dennis took over.


Now that starts off a very interesting alternate history. The Bruce and Denny show probably could've kept GM interested enough in Can-Am to take on the Porsches on something like equal terms, so perhaps the series would've actually reached greater heights and maybe even survived the oil crisis. No single-seater Can-Am... But what I see there, with McLaren being strong in Can-Am and at Indy, is the possibility of saying "Right, no point mucking around in F1, we're doing very nicely in the States" - and making a good few bob at it" -- perhaps ditching the F1 operation circa '73-4?


Bruce was starting to take a great interest in road cars just before he died and I think we would have seen a long and honourable line of desirable McLaren sports cars over the years. No flights of fantasy like the car that eventually transpired under the McLaren name, but good solid down to earth engineering with lots of grunt and perfectly practical in everyday use. No bloody silly price tag either. Cars for those who want to use them and can, not stuff you stick in a museum to appreciate in value.



I don't think the M6GT would ever have been a cheap car, but certainly not daft exotica.


I would also like to think that Bruce would have tried to put something back into the sport by reinstigating something along the lines the NZ Driver to Europe scheme that helped him find a footing in what you might call the big time. We don't see too many NZ drivers on the world stage at the moment and I'm sure Bruce would have wanted to do his bit to encourage them.

And of course we would see him every year at Goodwood, having a whale of a time in a McLaren M8 and showing the youngsters how to do it.



I can't imagine Bruce not trying to put something back - something you just don't get with most drivers of the past 20-odd years.

#19 ian senior

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:47

Had Graham Hill still been with us, I wonder how Damon's racing career would have panned out? Would he have done the same things at about the same time, or earlier, or even at all? And would he have been in the old man's team at any point?

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#20 f1steveuk

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:49

Originally posted by D-Type
It's interesting to speculate, but who would have predicted that Jody Scheckter would end up doing what he does, and doing it in the USA?


What? Farming in Sussex? or has he got something else on the go?

#21 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:54

Originally posted by ian senior
Had Graham Hill still been with us, I wonder how Damon's racing career would have panned out? Would he have done the same things at about the same time, or earlier, or even at all? And would he have been in the old man's team at any point?


I don't think Damon (or Jacques Villeneuve, for that matter) would've raced, had their fathers still been around, and I certainly don't think Damon would've got any parental support for racing -- Graham seemed to make it pretty clear that he felt that he'd had to work bloody hard to get into racing and that the measure of commitment was how hard you were willing to work to get into the game. I certainly don't see NGH as a stereotypical "pushy dad"...

#22 Hieronymus

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:58

Originally posted by petefenelon



Ronnie, Michele, Gilles, probably even Elio - you would have had to set up a 200-mile exclusion zone around the circuit to keep them away from something like Masters.


A most definate candidate for the Master Series - PATRICK DEPAILLER.

One of the most passionate racers I can think of.

If Patrick was still with us after F1... He would probably have taken to something like the Paris-Dakar. Surely would have continued racing. As long as it had wheels he would tried his luck.

Helicopter flying perhaps?

#23 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 13:58

Seppi and Pedro would probably still be around on the historic scene. Goodwood, Mille Miglia retro, you name it - huge grins on their faces and skid-marks everywhere. That's if they didn't make Pedro Emperor of Mexico - the Rodriguez brothers are still revered there! And Seppi was a hard worker, deal-maker, scrounger -- he'd no doubt be brokering sponsorship and all manner of deals for young drivers.

#24 Gary Davies

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:08

I'm enjoying some of the insights here.

So how about Fon, Ascari, Hawthorn, Harry, Parkes, Bellof and Brise, people?

#25 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:36

Originally posted by Vanwall
I'm enjoying some of the insights here.

So how about Fon, Ascari, Hawthorn, Harry, Parkes, Bellof and Brise, people?


Hawthorn (assuming his kidneys didn't take him from us) probably would've become a sort of John Coombs or Alan Brown kind of figure -- certainly dealing in tasty motors, maybe entering cars for the fun of it, and very much part of the social scene around racing. I could see him mellowing into a major figure in the BRDC as he aged, and of course his World Championship would've opened a lot of doors for him. I don't think he would've ever worked particularly hard, but he would've enjoyed it and stayed in touch with the sport.

Parkes - well, I think he would've continued the career path he was on - engineering on the motorsport side of the FIAT group. I could certainly see Mike still involved with Lancia right through the Beta Monte Carlo and Integrale years. He would only have been in his late 50s/early 60s through the heyday of the Integrale. Who knows, maybe he would've been called in to help out Ferrari in the early 90s when it was in managerial freefall -- rallymen have had a decent record in F1.

Stefan Bellof would still be hard at it for Porsche. WC for McLaren-TAG, several Le Mans wins in the TWR-Joest, 911GT1, and probably would've given the new LMP2 its debut last month!

#26 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:39

Originally posted by Hieronymus


A most definate candidate for the Master Series - PATRICK DEPAILLER.

One of the most passionate racers I can think of.

If Patrick was still with us after F1... He would probably have taken to something like the Paris-Dakar. Surely would have continued racing. As long as it had wheels he would tried his luck.

Helicopter flying perhaps?


Oh yes, definitely, but knowing Patrick he'd prang the helicopter the week before the Masters race and break a few bones! He probably would've been a Paris-Dakar hero, I agree, but knowing Patrick it would've been on a motorbike. After all - it's madder, and Patrick was always a fan of le sport dur;)

#27 ian senior

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:40

Originally posted by Vanwall
I'm enjoying some of the insights here.

So how about Fon, Ascari, Hawthorn, Harry, Parkes, Bellof and Brise, people?


Fon, I fear, would not I think have been around for too much longer after he gave up on motor racing. Hard to call, of course, but I can easily see him turning his hand to other dangerous pursuits and meeting an early death while playing as hard as he knew how. Sad I know, and an unpleasant thing to say, but quite likely.

#28 petefenelon

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:42

Originally posted by ian senior


Fon, I fear, would not I think have been around for too much longer after he gave up on motor racing. Hard to call, of course, but I can easily see him turning his hand to other dangerous pursuits and meeting an early death while playing as hard as he knew how. Sad I know, and an unpleasant thing to say, but quite likely.


Given that he'd already tried steeplechasing and bobsleigh, what else was there for him to do? (I can only think of something like powerboating.... it's got the mix of glamour and danger that seemed to be vital to Fon....)

#29 Wolf

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:44

Originally posted by petefenelon


I don't think Damon (or Jacques Villeneuve, for that matter) would've raced, had their fathers still been around, and I certainly don't think Damon would've got any parental support for racing -- Graham seemed to make it pretty clear that he felt that he'd had to work bloody hard to get into racing and that the measure of commitment was how hard you were willing to work to get into the game. I certainly don't see NGH as a stereotypical "pushy dad"...


I'd like to think NGH would've been something like Alfred Moss- I gather he had the attitude 'if you want it that badly, go on, but without my help' and when kids shows talent nd commitment back him up (B.R.P.)...

I doubt Fon and Mike would've stayed n the sport (to any serious degree), and I fear Ascari would've been paraded around by Ferrari, as I gather Gonzalez is nowdays... : I've heard old Pampas Bull shows up at receptions, but hardly anyone knows who he is ("oh, and that BTW is the man who scored first victory for Ferrari in WDC, and our next item in collection is...").

#30 ian senior

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 14:59

Originally posted by petefenelon


Given that he'd already tried steeplechasing and bobsleigh, what else was there for him to do? (I can only think of something like powerboating.... it's got the mix of glamour and danger that seemed to be vital to Fon....)


Flying converted fighter aircraft a la Ron Flockhart? And perhaps a prime candidate for hang gliders and microlights when they arrived on the scene a few years later (unless such things were considered to be beneath his dignity)?

What about Piers Courage? Called it a day in about '73 or '74 after a fair amount of sucess in Alfa sportscars and a couple of victories in F1, still with Frank Williams. Intelligent enough to pack it in when he realised he was never going to be world champion, but still wanted to retain links with his old mate and mentor Frank so worked with the team as general sponsorship go-getter and all round good guy to have around - his pleasant manner and social connections would have made him an ideal man for that role. Finally gave up on that kind of thing in the early 80s or so when motor racing was becoming terribly serious, but started taking an interest in things again at the same time that Lord March started doing wonderful things with Goodwood. Helped get the whole thing off the ground and made regular appearances behind the wheel again at such events, driving anything from his old F3 cars to F1 and sportscars from his era.

#31 f1steveuk

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:04

The only problem with this thread,

IF ONLY................................ :(

#32 David M. Kane

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:18

Jody use to own a security business in Atlanta, as was correctly pointed out he is in the organic farming business. I believe he is also doing high-end organic beef there too.

#33 f1steveuk

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:26

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Jody use to own a security business in Atlanta, as was correctly pointed out he is in the organic farming business. I believe he is also doing high-end organic beef there too.


I remember the security business, there were mumblings about arms as well!!

I can recommend the beef! :up:

#34 MCS

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:31

Originally posted by Vanwall
I'm enjoying some of the insights here.

So how about Fon, Ascari, Hawthorn, Harry, Parkes, Bellof and Brise, people?


Always wondered what might have been with Tony Brise.

I'm sure he would have won races, but the World Championship?

Would he be a regular on the Historic scene? Almost certainly.

All of which leads to thoughts on that "lost generation" of British drivers...Irwin, Spence, Courage, Birrell, Williamson, Pryce... :(

#35 Pedro 917

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:47

I know Pedro ran a succesful car import business in Mexico City's Zona Rosa (Rootes, Mercedes..) before becoming a pro in 1967 but I don't know what became of his company. I can imagine he would have loved historic racing and I can see him screaming up the Goodwood hill in one or another V or flat 12 powered car. If only...

#36 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:51

Jody led FATS -- Fire Arms Training Systems -- to the position of number one in its area of training technology and then moved on to farming. FATS is still around and seems to be doing well. Its "Shoot--Don't Shoot" trainers are still pretty much standard in police departments everywhere and its SETS -- Squad Engagement Training System -- morphed into what is now known as the EST -- Engagement Skills Trainer -- and although FATS is not the prime for the Army system, supplying the demilitarized weapons used, it still produces its own version of the EST as well as supports all of the systems it produced.

#37 ensign14

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 15:59

Originally posted by MCS

I'm sure he would have won races, but the World Championship?

He lapped a team-mate in the Hill who went on to become WDC...

#38 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 16:04

A dutch swing to this thread:
Carel Godin de Beaufort would have developped his Ecurie Maarsbergen into a national racing team with many talents racing all-over the world, and possibly with cars from Porsche and American makes. He would have been an ambassador for the sport our country has missed for many years.

#39 ian senior

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 16:11

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
A dutch swing to this thread:
Carel Godin de Beaufort would have developped his Ecurie Maarsbergen into a national racing team with many talents racing all-over the world, and possibly with cars from Porsche and American makes. He would have been an ambassador for the sport our country has missed for many years.


Absolutely agree, and I guess we would still have a Dutch GP too.

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#40 Mohican

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 08:11

many thanks for ideas & feedback.

Absolutely agree re Ronnie; he would have made a wonderful ambassador for BMW - just like Stuck.

Thinking of Ronnie leads me to Francois Cevert. Such a suave man; cannot see him in politics, but as a senior French businessman ?

What about Bandini, Giunti, Williamson, Pryce and others ?

When thinking back, it is even clearer what an incredible difference the introduction of carbonfibre has made to the general safety levels of motor racing.

#41 f1steveuk

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 08:55

I cannot see Roger Williamson leaving motor sport, I could see him on a prat perch somewhere, on the radio to a driver telling him to put his foot down.

Cevert was a hero of mine, and from what I have heard (the joys of living in France part time) he was no businessman, acting possibly.

I know Simon Brise reasoably well (Tony's brother), and he really don't know what Tony would have done, his only interest was driving, maybe a step back to kart manufacturing?

#42 petefenelon

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 10:55

Originally posted by f1steveuk
I cannot see Roger Williamson leaving motor sport, I could see him on a prat perch somewhere, on the radio to a driver telling him to put his foot down.


Roger would probably be doing all the hard work (and probably a fair bit of the test driving!) for Wheatcroft F1 while Tom's.... Tom ;)

#43 ian senior

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 11:01

[QUOTE]Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]

Now that starts off a very interesting alternate history. The Bruce and Denny show probably could've kept GM interested enough in Can-Am to take on the Porsches on something like equal terms, so perhaps the series would've actually reached greater heights and maybe even survived the oil crisis. No single-seater Can-Am... But what I see there, with McLaren being strong in Can-Am and at Indy, is the possibility of saying "Right, no point mucking around in F1, we're doing very nicely in the States" - and making a good few bob at it" -- perhaps ditching the F1 operation circa '73-4?


Sounds reasonable but I think while the logistics made Indy, Can Am and F1 still do-able at the same time, I think they would have persisted with all three for a bit longer. Going off at a tangent, I wonder if Bruce would have been able to tempt Chris Amon back into the fold when Denny retired at the end of 1973? The prospect of a competitive M23 for 1974 would surely have appealed to him.

#44 f1steveuk

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 11:38

The thought that Donington still has a M23 wrapped in grease paper that was to have been assembled for Roger, what might have been, so I agree, Roger would have scored the last victory of the true privateer, then team Wheatcroft would have probably been a pretty good prospect. They had quite a good test track near by!!!!

#45 Jim Thurman

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 21:41

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
In a strange way I have always admired the guys (aka Rex White and others) that simply walked away from the sport for one reason or another.


Henry, me too...

And there's no shortage of them. I can think of several who have raised or trained horses, while some returned to farms or simply found other disparate things to be involved in.

Richie's quote about life's opportunities and guessing was very astute, and sadly very true.

#46 FLB

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 22:13

I can very well imagine Jo Siffert running F1, or FOCA or FOM or whatever! :lol: He was the man who introduced Marlboro to F1 in 1970. He was one of the few people to make money off the movie Le Mans by renting his own cars to the production. He was a self-made man who worked his way to the top, by making deals that were sometimes a little bit on the risky side. He was an actor (not simply the driver) in bringing Porsche to Can Am.

Once retired from driving, I have no doubt he would have found a way to make serious amounts of money, to the point that I think Seppi the Businessman would have eclipsed Seppi the Driver.

#47 FLB

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 22:20

Originally posted by petefenelon
(Elio de Angelis is an interesting 'what might have been' - a multi-talented and intelligent man, I think his career outside racing would've taken him to the top in whatever he chose to do afterwards, but I think he would've been one of those guys who could never quite get away . I see him doing at least the odd Le Mans....)

Whenever Williams had a 1-2 finish in 1991 and 1992, I always saw his shadow over Mansell and Patrese... :(

#48 MCS

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 08:59

Originally posted by f1steveuk
The thought that Donington still has a M23 wrapped in grease paper that was to have been assembled for Roger...


Really :confused:

#49 petefenelon

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 10:21

Originally posted by MCS


Really :confused:


I mentioned this a couple of years ago, quoting Tom Wheatcroft from the Roger Williamson chapter in Tremayne's superb Racers Apart

"We got to the British Grand Prix, and nobody knew that Ken Tyrrell had been in touch. He wanted Roger. He'd come to races and watched him. Jackie Stewart was going to retire, of course, and Ken knew that early on.... The truth was we had a contract to sign with Ken, but we had to keep altering it. Then Roger came up the office one morning and he were in my office all day and then he come home and had a meal with me. It were just after the 9 o'clock news and after being with me all day from about 9 o'clock in the morning he finally said to me 'Oh Tom, I'm worried, I'd like to stay with you and drive for you'. And I said 'Well Roger, we'd only hold you up, Ken's forgot more than we'll ever know'. And we had a chat and we rang Pat McLaren up and ordered two M23s. Still in my workshop I've got all the stuff that we bought, never been unwrapped, to make a car for ourselves as well. We were going to make a formula two car and run that during the season in odd races, as well as do formula one, and we were going to do that, and then we'd learn how to make a car off the Formula Two. The McLarens would have been private, for myself, and Pat would've sold them to us, it was all laid on. Course, I knew her well 'cause I'd done quite a few deals when Bruce were alive, so we weren't like strangers, you know. I knew her like I know Ken."


Read that chapter - in fact, read the whole book, it's a wonderfully human study of racing drivers.

I get the impression that Tom didn't have the McLaren, but had a load of bits for a new Wheatcroft F2 the design for which I assume became the R18 in '75.

#50 Mallory Dan

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 13:39

Originally posted by FLB

Whenever Williams had a 1-2 finish in 1991 and 1992, I always saw his shadow over Mansell and Patrese... :(



Why ????