The Grand Prix Independents? Trophy 2007

The Grand Prix Independents’ Trophy 2007

A new season, a new Independents’ Trophy. Just like last year, I will keep track of race results and post them here. All comments are welcome. I hope you’ll enjoy the ride.

But first, I’ll state the rules again.

Rules
Eligible teams
The Grand Prix Independents' Trophy shall be awarded during any season in which there are, for the first race of the season, at least three nominated teams eligible.

Example: the 2004 season had just enough independent teams competing, with Sauber, Jordan and Minardi. So in 2004 there was an Independent’s Trophy awarded. The 1990 season, however, had more than enough teams (13), but only two engine suppliers, with Ford and Judd. Hence not Trophy was awarded in that year.

Nominating teams and drivers
A team and it’s drivers are eligible when the team is not a factory team, meaning it is not wholly or partly owned by a car manufacturer. The team may be supported by a manufacturer, financially or otherwise, but only when this manufacturer owns or supports any other team which is it’s factory team.

Example: Honda is not eligible, because it is wholly owned by the Honda car manufacturer, while Super Aguri is eligible, because, although (financially and/or otherwise) supported by the same manufacturer, is not it’s factory team.

Is a driver replaced during the season, his replacement of course earns the points scored from then on. A driver that switches from one nominated team to another keeps his points, but points scored after the switch, of course add up to the new team’s tally.

Scoring points
Points are awarded to the nominated teams and drivers who finish any race during the season, just like the normal Championship points are:
1st position = 10 points
2nd position = 8 points
3rd position = 6 points
4th position = 5 points
5th position = 4 points
6th position = 3 points
7th position = 2 points
8th position = 1 point

Drivers who do not finish a race, but are still classified on the official FIA results, are awarded the appropriate points, if any. Should a driver be disqualified after the race, he will also be removed from the Independents’ results, while any following driver(s) will be moved up a place and awarded the appropriate points, if any.

Winning the Trophy
Of course, the driver and team that accumulate the most points during the season, shall be declared the Grand Prix Independents' Trophy winners. If two drivers or teams score an equal amount of points, the driver/team with the higher number of wins is the winner. And what if they win an equal amount of races? The one with the higher number of second-place finishes, and so on. You know the drill.

Nominated teams and drivers for 2007

• Red Bull Racing; David Coulthard, Mark Webber
• AT&T Williams; Nico Rosberg, Alex Wurz
• Scuderia Toro Rosso, t.b.a., t.b.a.
• Spyker F1 Team; Christijan Albers, Adrian Sutil
• Super Aguri F1 Team; Takuma Sato, Antony Davidson

The eligibility of these teams has been fully debated in this thread as well as last year's. Pros and cons of dropping or adding teams made me decide on these entrants.

Now for some statistics:

Stats
Past champions
1950 through 2005 are retrospective champions. 1950 through 1980: Privateers' Trophy

[b]Year  Winning driver		 Car							 Winning constructor [/b]

2006  David Coulthard		Red Bull-Ferrari RB2			Red Bull Racing

2005  Felipe Massa		   Sauber-Petronas C24			 Sauber Petronas

2004  Giancarlo Fisichella   Sauber-Petronas C23			 Sauber Petronas

2003  Nick Heidfeld		  Sauber-Petronas C22			 Sauber Petronas

2002  Nick Heidfeld		  Sauber-Petronas C21			 Sauber Petronas

2001  Nick Heidfeld		  Sauber-Petronas C20			 Red Bull Sauber Petronas

2000  Mika Salo			  Sauber-Petronas C19			 Mild Seven Benetton Playlife

1999  Heinz-Harald Frentzen  Jordan-Mugen-Honda 199		  Benson & Hedges Jordan

1998  Jacques Villeneuve	 Williams-Mécachrome FW20		Winfield Williams

1997  Johnny Herbert		 Sauber-Petronas C16			 Red Bull Sauber Petronas

1996  Olivier Panis		  Ligier-Mugen-Honda JS43		 Ligier Gauloises Blondes

1995  Olivier Panis		  Ligier-Mugen-Honda JS41		 Ligier Gitanes Blondes

1994  Rubens Barrichello	 Jordan-Hart 194				 Sasol Jordan

1993  Ayrton Senna		   McLaren-Ford MP4-8			  Marlboro McLaren

1992  Michele Alboreto	   Footwork-Mugen-Honda FA13	   Footwork Mugen Honda

1991  Andrea de Cesaris	  Jordan-Ford 191				 Team 7UP Jordan

1990  Jean Alesi			 Tyrrell-Ford 018/019			Tyrrell Racing Organisation

1989  Nelson Piquet		  Lotus-Judd 101				  Arrows Grand Prix International

1988  Derek Warwick		  Arrows-Megatron A10B			USF&G Arrows Megatron

1987  Jonathan Palmer		Tyrrell-Ford DG016			  Data General Team Tyrrell

1986  Ayrton Senna		   Lotus-Renault 98T			   John Player Special Team Lotus

1985  Elio de Angelis		Lotus-Renault 97T			   John Player Special Team Lotus

1984  Elio de Angelis		Lotus-Renault 95T			   John Player Team Lotus

1983  Keke Rosberg		   Williams-Ford FW08C			 TAG Williams Team

1982  Keke Rosberg		   Williams-Ford FW07D/FW07C/FW08  TAG Williams Team

1981  Nelson Piquet		  Brabham-Ford BT49C			  Albilad-Williams Racing Team /

															 TAG Williams Racing Team

1980  [color=silver]not awarded: no competitors[/color]

1979  [color=silver]not awarded: insufficient competitors[/color]

1978  [color=silver]not awarded: insufficient competitors[/color]

1977  [color=silver]not awarded: no competitors[/color]

1976  [color=silver]not awarded: insufficient competitors[/color]

1975  [color=silver]not awarded: no competitors[/color]

1974  John Watson			Brabham-Ford BT42 / BT44

1973  [color=silver]not awarded: no competitors[/color]

1972  Mike Beuttler		  March-Ford 721G

1971  Henri Pescarolo		March-Ford 701 / 711

1970  Jackie Stewart		 March-Ford 701

1969  Jo Siffert			 Lotus-Ford 49B

1968  Jackie Stewart		 Matra-Ford MS9 / MS10

1967  Jo Siffert			 Cooper-Maserati T81

1966  John Taylor †		  Brabham-BRM BT11

1965  Jo Siffert			 Brabham-BRM BT11

1964  Jo Siffert			 Lotus-BRM 24 / Brabham-BRM BT11 (+ Brabham-Climax BT11)

1963  Jo Bonnier			 Cooper-Climax T60 / T66

1962  John Surtees		   Lola-Climax 4

1961  Stirling Moss		  Lotus-Climax 18 / 18/21 / 21

1960  Stirling Moss		  Cooper-Climax T51 / Lotus-Climax 18

1959  Maurice Trintignant	Cooper-Climax T51

1958  Maurice Trintignant	Cooper-Climax T43 / T45 / Maserati 250F

1957  Masten Gregory		 Maserati 250F

1956  Louis Rosier		   Maserati 250F

1955  [color=silver]not awarded: insufficient competitors[/color]

1954  Ken Wharton			Maserati 250F

1953  [color=silver]not awarded: no competitors[/color]

1952  Mike Hawthorn		  Cooper-Bristol T20

1951  Louis Rosier		   Talbot–Lago-Talbot T26C-DA

1950  Prins Bira			 Maserati 4CLT-48 / 4CLT-50

Most wins, drivers
1. Olivier Panis, 25
2. Giancarlo Fisichella, 24
= Nick Heidfeld, 24
4. Heinz-Harald Frentzen, 23
5. Jo Siffert, 19
6. Ayrton Senna, 18
7. John Watson, 17
8. Jo Bonnier, 14
9. Elio de Angelis, 13
= Felipe Massa, 13

Most wins, constructors
1. Sauber, 75
2. Lotus, 64
3. Ligier, 51
4. Jordan, 43
5. Cooper, 42
6. Williams, 39
7. Brabham, 35
= McLaren, 35
9. Tyrrell, 31
10. March, 30

Most wins, engine manufacturers
1. Ford, 163
2. Petronas, 74
3. Mugen-Honda, 64
4. Renault, 47
5. Climax, 46
6. Maserati, 35
7. BRM, 27
8. Judd, 26
9. Cosworth, 22
10. Hart, 20

Trivia

• John Taylor won the Trophy posthumously in 1966. He got heavily burnt in a crash with Jacky Ickx in the German Grand Prix and died a few weeks later. He had scored enough points to claim the Trophy
• Jo Siffert won the Privateers' Trophy a record four times
• Lotus and Sauber share the most Independents'/Privateers' Trophies with 7 each
• Ford won the most Independents'/Privateers' Trophies: 13
• Sauber has the most Independent Constructors Trophies: 6
• Prince Bira won the Trophy in 1950 scoring 14 points. Three other drivers had the same amount, but Bira outscored them by a second place, one dnf and two dnf's respectively; plus Peter Whitehead was 5th only two points adrift
• Mike Hawthorn and Masten Gregory both won the Trophy in their first season
• Nick Heidfeld won the Trophy in 2002 with the biggest margin: 54 points (118 over teammate Felipe Massa's 64)
• Mike Beuttler won the Trophy in 1972 scoring only a single victory

Super Aguri F1 Team; Takuma Sato, Antony Davidson

Seriously?

They're majority funded by Honda. They're RUNNING a sodding Honda? They're running two drivers borrowed from Honda.

What exactly would SA have to do to NOT be independant in your eyes?

And Spyker are 100% owned by a car manufacturer!

Williams are getting their engines free from Toyota (at least thats what I understand, and I've not seen anything to contradict that), so do they really qualify?

Originally posted by Clatter
Williams are getting their engines free from Toyota (at least thats what I understand, and I've not seen anything to contradict that), so do they really qualify?

As much as McLaren did qualify in late 90's when they only got engines from Mercedes.

I really like this idea.

Surely Michael and Benneton wins in 1994/1995 seasons, as they can't be considered a manufacturer team. Also, Spyker is not an independent team!

Originally posted by Dudley
Seriously? They're majority funded by Honda. They're RUNNING a sodding Honda? They're running two drivers borrowed from Honda. What exactly would SA have to do to NOT be independant in your eyes?

Originally posted by Clatter
Williams are getting their engines free from Toyota (at least thats what I understand, and I've not seen anything to contradict that), so do they really qualify?

To quote myself:

Originally posted by lustigson
Nominating teams and drivers
A team and it’s drivers are eligible when the team is not a factory team, meaning it is not either wholly or partly owned by a car manufacturer nor supported by a manufacturer, financially or otherwise, when this manufacturer owns or supports any other team(s).

Example: Honda is not eligible, because it is wholly owned by the Honda car manufacturer, while Super Aguri, although (financially and/or otherwise) supported by the same manufacturer, is not it’s factory team.

Originally posted by Dudley
And Spyker are 100% owned by a car manufacturer!

You're right, of course, however, Spyker do run customer engines. I find them a bit of a grey area. And since having five teams battling it out is better than four, I chose to add Spyker-Ferrari. An arbitrary choice, I know.

Mugen-Hondas weren't factory engines? Who was the works Honda team in those seasons?

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Mugen-Hondas weren't factory engines? Who was the works Honda team in those seasons?

There was no works Honda team. If I recall correctly the teams using Mugens had to pay for them.

Your rules are written SPECIFICALLY exclude Super Aguri.

"nor supported by a manufacturer, financially or otherwise, when this manufacturer owns or supports any other team(s)."

That's the definition of Aguri. If you change it to "Doesn't own or support" we'll talk, although if you do then the concept has gone.

And Spyker isn't even slightly a judgement call.

Red Bull, STR and Williams are the only even slightly eligable teams.

Originally posted by Dudley
Your rules are written SPECIFICALLY exclude Super Aguri.

"nor supported by a manufacturer, financially or otherwise, when this manufacturer owns or supports any other team(s)."

That's the definition of Aguri. If you change it to "Doesn't own or support" we'll talk, although if you do then the concept has gone.

And Spyker isn't even slightly a judgement call.

Red Bull, STR and Williams are the only even slightly eligable teams.

You're absolutley right. I re-read my own rule and it is indeed stated so that it excludes not only Super Aguri, but also the other teams I nominated. Obviously this wasn't what I intended, because there wouldn't be any Independents' Tropy. So, let me be so bold to change that rule:

Nominating teams and drivers
A team and it’s drivers are eligible when the team is not a factory team, meaning it is not wholly or partly owned by a car manufacturer. The team may be supported by a manufacturer, financially or otherwise, but only when this manufacturer owns or supports any other team which is it’s factory team.

Example: Honda is not eligible, because it is wholly owned by the Honda car manufacturer, while Super Aguri is eligible, because, although (financially and/or otherwise) supported by the same manufacturer, is not it’s factory team.

In your "history" list, it says insufficient competitors in 1989 and 1990. That seems very hard to believe, as formula1 was crawling with small, independent teams in that period, like Coloni, Minardi, Osella, and indeed Arrows, the winner in 1988. Can you explain this?

Originally posted by Wouter
In your "history" list, it says insufficient competitors in 1989 and 1990. That seems very hard to believe, as formula1 was crawling with small, independent teams in that period, like Coloni, Minardi, Osella, and indeed Arrows, the winner in 1988. Can you explain this?

You're right about the abundance of independent teams in those seasons -- 14 in '89 and 13 in '90 -- but there were only two engine suppliers to all of those teams, back then, namely Ford and Judd.

Had the three-engine-suppliers rule not existed, Nelson Piquet would've won the Independents' Trophy for Lotus-Judd in 1989, beating Derek Warwick's Arrows-Ford 45 to 40 points. Jean Alesi would've taken the Trophy in 1990 for Tyrrell-Ford, smashing his nearest opponents Alex Caffi and Nicola Larini for Arrows-Ford and Ligier-Ford respetiviely, with 76 points to 46.

I have all seasons in Excel -- even the ones that didn't comply with the three-teams and three-suppliers rules. I've been thinking about publishing them all on a website of some sort. But that'll take some time.

It would be wonderful if you could publish the results in an Excel format!

I wonder why you use this three-engine rule, though? Of course you need a certain minimal of eligible teams before there is a meaningful competition, but why would it matter if all of those happen to use Cosworths (or in the case of 1989 and 1990, Cosworth or Judd)? You might as well stipulate at least 2 different tyre manufacturers as well, it seems just as arbitrary. They were not Ford or Judd factory teams, after all (with exception of Benetton).

Therefore, I would like to ask for a reconsideration of the engines rule.

Originally posted by Wouter
It would be wonderful if you could publish the results in an Excel format!

Check out the files at:

Seasons 1950-1960
Seasons 1961-1970
Seasons 1971-1980
Seasons 1981-1990
Seasons 1991-2000
Seasons 2001-2007

When asked to update links or something, I think you can just ignore that. The points systems are in an other file, here, but I don't think you really need that file.

Originally posted by Wouter
Therefore, I would like to ask for a reconsideration of the engines rule.

That's of course quite easy to do, since I already counted points for non-compliant seasons. Just check them out and let me know what you think.

Oh, and remember that 1950 through 1980 is the Privateers' Trophy, meaning that privately entered Maseratis, Coopers et al count for the championship, in stead of independent teams like the Jordans or whatever.

Thanks for the files! I took a quick look, and I noticed you made 2 versions for 1986 - with and without Lotus, no doubt. Did they pay for the Renaults in 1986, I wonder? Did Ligier, for that matter?

It indeed makes sense to use another system prior to 1980, as F1 was so different back then, and those teams like Rob Walker were the ultimate privateers, really.

The results for 1989 and 1990 look very interesting to me, I would include them (and drop the engine thing alltogether).

I was surprised by the 1987 results; in the list it seemed logical that Palmer won (he did really win the "Jim Clark" trophy for atmo cars), but I hadn't realised the Arrows' were on the list. Warwick and Cheever were so much faster than Palmer that year, but I guess the typical turbo reliability got those surprising results.

Originally posted by Wouter
It would be wonderful if you could publish the results in an Excel format!

I wonder why you use this three-engine rule, though? Of course you need a certain minimal of eligible teams before there is a meaningful competition, but why would it matter if all of those happen to use Cosworths (or in the case of 1989 and 1990, Cosworth or Judd)? You might as well stipulate at least 2 different tyre manufacturers as well, it seems just as arbitrary. They were not Ford or Judd factory teams, after all (with exception of Benetton).

Therefore, I would like to ask for a reconsideration of the engines rule.

Well indeed, hell with the 3 engine rule in the main championship we'd actually have struggled to HAVE a main championship for some of the 70s.

1990 could technically count though. Life were not a car manufacturer but built their own engine, making a 3rd indie.

Thanks for the comments, guys. I think I'll ditch the three-engine-supplier rule, indeed. I don't have time for that, the coming few days, but I'll update files and both this and the 2006 thread soon.

Originally posted by Wouter
Thanks for the files! I took a quick look, and I noticed you made 2 versions for 1986 - with and without Lotus, no doubt. Did they pay for the Renaults in 1986, I wonder? Did Ligier, for that matter?

Check out the 2006 thread for the discussion on exactly this matter. I originally included Lotus-Renault as an Independent team, but changed that after discussions with some forum members.

Did you make all the list?

You're missing the 1977 Hesketh of Hector Rebaque...I only got a quick look

Originally posted by daallo1
Did you make all the list?

Yeah, I did.

Originally posted by daallo1
You're missing the 1977 Hesketh of Hector Rebaque...I only got a quick look

That's deliberate. When Rebaque raced in '77, he did so under the 'Hesketh Racing' banner. So I considered him a factory driver. When there were three Heskeths on the grid, at Zandvoort, for example, Rebaque and Ian Ashley were in the factory cars, while I considered Rupert Keegan, racing for 'Penthouse Rizla Racing', a privateer.

Originally posted by Wouter
The results for 1989 and 1990 look very interesting to me, I would include them (and drop the engine thing alltogether).

I think I will change the three-engine-suppliers rule, indeed. I'm temped to remove the rule entirely, but how do you guys feel about reducing it to two-suppliers? That would give Piquet and Alesi their respective Trophies. Plus, Piquet and Rosberg would take the '81 and '82 Trophies respectively. Removing the rule altogether would do the same thing, though.

Seasons 1950 through 1980, however, had the Privateers' Trophy. The rule for those seasons is the following, according to my own post in the 2006 thread:

The Grand Prix Privateers' Trophy shall be rewarded during any season in which there are, for the first race of the season, at least three privately entered cars.

It seems somewhat inappropriate to change that or skip it altogether, 'cause that would seriously reduce the competitiveness, if not eliminate it entirely for some seasons. I could reduce this rule to two as well, giving Hans Joachim Stuck the 1976 Trophy for March-Ford. Hardly worth the effort, I'd say.

Let me know what you think and I'll update the lists and the stats accordingly.

3 privateer cars at a minimum is OK I think, 2 is very little to have a competition.

For the engines, throw it out completely. Almost the entire field was on Cosworth at some points, but all of those teams were still fierce competitors and the competition wasn't less interesting because of that.

Originally posted by Dudley
By that token Renault and Honda are not manufacturer teams, after all they're just Toleman and BAR.

By that token, Renault and Honda are major car manufacturers who pour millions into their factory teams. OK, it's also badge-engineering to an extent, but they deliver engines, money and expertise. You can't see how that's difference from poor Spyker/Jordan?

Originally posted by Wouter

By that token, Renault and Honda are major car manufacturers who pour millions into their factory teams. OK, it's also badge-engineering to an extent, but they deliver engines, money and expertise. You can't see how that's difference from poor Spyker/Jordan?

BMW have considerably less money than Honda.

They don't get a break.

Just because they're a slightly poorer manufacturer neither should Spyker.

The only valid distinction is "Do they make road cars".

Of course this also neatly disqualifies Lotus from the championships before the road car division was sold off.

Originally posted by Dudley


BMW have considerably less money than Honda.

They don't get a break.

Just because they're a slightly poorer manufacturer neither should Spyker.

The only valid distinction is "Do they make road cars".

Of course this also neatly disqualifies Lotus from the championships before the road car division was sold off.

Lustigson uses an entirely other set of rules before 1980, when it is about real privateer teams that exist no longer - teams who bought/hired cars from for example Lotus.

It amazes me that you want to make a distinction that goes Honda, Toyota and so on the one hand and then BMW, Lotus and Spyker on the other. Reasonable persons count BMW under the large manufacturers; there should be no discussion about that. When Spyker builds it very own F1 engine and it spends hundreds of millions each season on Spyker, then we can talk again. Right now that's completely impossible for a small company which doesn't even build its own engines for the road cars, and which is much to small to have any meaningful F1 project.

Originally posted by Wouter

Lustigson uses an entirely other set of rules before 1980, when it is about real privateer teams that exist no longer - teams who bought/hired cars from for example Lotus.

It amazes me that you want to make a distinction that goes Honda, Toyota and so on the one hand and then BMW, Lotus and Spyker on the other. Reasonable persons count BMW under the large manufacturers; there should be no discussion about that. When Spyker builds it very own F1 engine and it spends hundreds of millions each season on Spyker, then we can talk again. Right now that's completely impossible for a small company which doesn't even build its own engines for the road cars, and which is much to small to have any meaningful F1 project.

I think you'll find Lotus won championships in this series after 1980. 3 of them in fact.

Also I'm not putting BMW in Spyker's class I'm simply pointing out that you can't say "Well they're poorer" while ignoring there's enormous budget differences between the other manufacturers as well.

As for "doesn't build it's own engines for the road cars" we've already established there's several BMW road cars without BMW engines.

Has something like this ever existed officially?

Originally posted by daallo1
Has something like this ever existed officially?

Nearly, 1987 had a championship for the non-Turbos.

Other series have something similar, the BTCC has an independants cup, although the current nature of the BTCC meant that for the last two years it's been won by the overall champion anyway.

There's been bitching in the past though, The Ecurie Ecosse Vauxhall team that were almost exactly the same to Vauxhall as Aguri are to Honda weren't allowed to take the title.

If we did know how much teams spent exactly (excluding drivers' salaries), the cut line could be half the budget of the richest team.

Originally posted by HBoss
If we did know how much teams spent exactly (excluding drivers' salaries), the cut line could be half the budget of the richest team.

Debateably that could make Renault the winner of this championship in 2005.

Originally posted by Dudley


I think you'll find Lotus won championships in this series after 1980. 3 of them in fact.

Also I'm not putting BMW in Spyker's class I'm simply pointing out that you can't say "Well they're poorer" while ignoring there's enormous budget differences between the other manufacturers as well.

As for "doesn't build it's own engines for the road cars" we've already established there's several BMW road cars without BMW engines.

Different rules after 1980 - Lotus as a constructor (chassis!) doesn't qualify before 1980 under Lustigson's rules. After, they qualify when they're not a factory team (which they arguably were in 1986,1987,1988 and maybe 1985). Since about 1980, everybody builds its own chassis (until now, that is) so everybody is a constructor in that sense.

There are really no enormous budget differences between the factory teams (except perhaps Jaguar) - they all have the money when it's needed, and its practically impossible to find out the true budget. At Renault for example, engineers from all over the company may be called on to assist the racing team if their knowledge in a specific area is needed. Is this covered in the estimated budgets that get released? There is an ocean of difference between even the "poorest" factory team and a team like Spyker.

As for BMW not making its own engines because a few here and there may use engines bought elsewhere - what an enormous nitpick, man. BMW may be relatively small compared to Toyota, but it absolutely dwarfs Spyker the manufacturer, which does not even make money AFAIK and has to use borrowed money from Mol, who also owns the F1 team.

Originally posted by Wouter

Different rules after 1980 - Lotus as a constructor (chassis!) doesn't qualify before 1980 under Lustigson's rules. After, they qualify when they're not a factory team (which they arguably were in 1986,1987,1988 and maybe 1985). Since about 1980, everybody builds its own chassis (until now, that is) so everybody is a constructor in that sense.

There are really no enormous budget differences between the factory teams (except perhaps Jaguar) - they all have the money when it's needed, and its practically impossible to find out the true budget. At Renault for example, engineers from all over the company may be called on to assist the racing team if their knowledge in a specific area is needed. Is this covered in the estimated budgets that get released? There is an ocean of difference between even the "poorest" factory team and a team like Spyker.

As for BMW not making its own engines because a few here and there may use engines bought elsewhere - what an enormous nitpick, man. BMW may be relatively small compared to Toyota, but it absolutely dwarfs Spyker the manufacturer, which does not even make money AFAIK and has to use borrowed money from Mol, who also owns the F1 team.

But in both cases that's precisely my point.

Lotus won in the mid-80s when as a car manufacturer they shouldn't be included.

And as you point out, BMW is massively smaller than Toyota but massively bigger than Spyker, why is your definition of manufacturer based on this?

Perhaps a better way to run this championship now, if not historically is to change the rules to "Team that builds both car and engine are excluded". Neatly that gives the exact same line up as Mr L has chosen.

Also to address the Lotus thing, you missed 1990 in the list of times they were a factory team.

And if we're being REALLY picky, if you're basing it on the fact that Spyker don't make a profit as a car manufacturer right now, I invite you to look at Ford's published books.

Dudley, you seem to don't want to understand it. BMW is not massively smaller than Toyota, your attempt to place them in the middle of Toyota and Spyker is very misleading.

Well...I think you are missing the NART, it was a private team...

The whole Spyker and Lotus discussion is very clear to me. Since Lotus always (!) used engines produced by a(n other) car manufacturer, they were at times eligible for the GPIT. And, since Spyker uses Ferrari engines in 2007, to me they are eligible, too.

I don't really see why Spyker is any different from RBR.
Both are teams owned by guys using the team to increase worldwide awareness of their product, both teams build their own chassis, but neither builds their own engine. IMO, Spyker is a title sponsor rather than a manufacturer.

Why is the trophy awarded in 2003 and 2004? There were only two customer engine manufacturers, Ferrari and Cosworth, so it shouldn't be.

We just democratically decided to drop the three-engine rule, didn't we?
Besides, Ford and Cosworth could be seen as 2 different engines (which they essentially were at the time).

Originally posted by Wouter
Dudley, you seem to don't want to understand it. BMW is not massively smaller than Toyota, your attempt to place them in the middle of Toyota and Spyker is very misleading.

BMW Market cap : $36.6 billion
Toyota Market Cap : $205 billion

Indeed it's very misleading, BMW are much closer to Spyker than they are to Toyota in sheer size.

You underestimate the size of Toyota, they are for instance, larger than WallMart.

Originally posted by daallo1
Well...I think you are missing the NART, it was a private team...

In the very very loosest sense, Ferrari didn't run races and lent the factory drivers and cars to NART in protest against the Italian racing authorities. To call it an independant is pushing it a LOT.

Ferrari even made a car called NART as part of the road line up.

The whole Spyker and Lotus discussion is very clear to me. Since Lotus always (!) used engines produced by a(n other) car manufacturer, they were at times eligible for the GPIT. And, since Spyker uses Ferrari engines in 2007, to me they are eligible, too.

If that's the rule that's the rule, I think it's dead wrong that we're including car manufacturers as "Independants".

McLaren should have been eligable in 1995 for instance, Mercedes didn't make the Ilmors.

EDIT : For instance, why was Sauber - Petronas eligable when a 3rd party paid for their Ferrari engines when McLaren weren't when a 3rd party paid for Ilmors.

Plus if this was champ car you'd have Penske eligable in 1994 but not 1993 or 1995 despite the fact they used identical engines in all 3 years.

Originally posted by Fletcher
Why is the trophy awarded in 2003 and 2004? There were only two customer engine manufacturers, Ferrari and Cosworth, so it shouldn't be.

This is the first part of your answer:

Originally posted by Frogman
We just democratically decided to drop the three-engine rule, didn't we?
Besides, Ford and Cosworth could be seen as 2 different engines (which they essentially were at the time).

And Ford and Cosworth were indeed two different engine types. In 2003 Minardi raced the Cosworth CR-3, while Jordan raced the Ford Cosworth RS1. From what I always understood, those were different engines. Jaguar, by the way, raced the Cosworth CR-5 that season.

In 2004, Minardi raced the CR-3L, which was essentially the same engine as in 2004, but, IIRC, made to last an entire weekend. Jordan had the Ford Cosworth RS2, while Jaguar raced the Cosworth CR-6.

Originally posted by lustigson


This is the first part of your answer:



And Ford and Cosworth were indeed two different engine types. In 2003 Minardi raced the Cosworth CR-3, while Jordan raced the Ford Cosworth RS1. From what I always understood, those were different engines. Jaguar, by the way, raced the Cosworth CR-5 that season.

In 2004, Minardi raced the CR-3L, which was essentially the same engine as in 2004, but, IIRC, made to last an entire weekend. Jordan had the Ford Cosworth RS2, while Jaguar raced the Cosworth CR-6.

For what it's worth, the RS1 and CR-5 are the same engine, ditto RS2 and cr6

Originally posted by Frogman
I don't really see why Spyker is any different from RBR.
Both are teams owned by guys using the team to increase worldwide awareness of their product, both teams build their own chassis, but neither builds their own engine. IMO, Spyker is a title sponsor rather than a manufacturer.

Exactly. Red Bull is a much larger constructor than Spyker, probably, allthough they "construct" bottled drinks instead of cars.

Spyker is more or less a kit car manufacturer; many of their parts, foremost the engine, are bought from outside, in all their cars of which they produce only about 100 each year (that's massively smaller than BMW...). It's perhaps somwhat comparable to TVR, or even to Saleen/Zonda/...

The Jordan team was bought by an investor behind Spyker, who supplied the money or the lion's share of it and decided to use Spyker as badge. It's indeed really more a title sponsor than anything else; Spyker gets publicity and the team gets a bit of an exclusive cachet a la Ferrari. It's a bit like the attempt by Pacific to use the Lotus name (which makes Pacific a factory team then I suppose, Dudley?).

Besides, even Minardi was a car manufacturer, striclty speaking. They didn't build road cars, but they certainly constructed cars to race with. By ths token, no team is qualified except Superaguri and STR in the coming year. Most will probably agree that such dwarf-manufacturers of up to Lotus scale are not comparable with a rich mass manufacturer like BMW, no matter that BMW's turnover is a lot smaller than Toyota.

I can see we're not going to agree but I will point out that by the time lotus were involved with Pacific (a tiny sponser of pacific rather than 100% owner). Lotus cars had nothing to do with Team Lotus and thus no, they could be independant.

Well, does Spyker cars really have much to do with Spyker F1, you think? It's basically still Jordan underneath. Pacific used the Lotus badge, Jordan will use a Spyker one.

Originally posted by Dudley


For what it's worth, the RS1 and CR-5 are the same engine, ditto RS2 and cr6

My point exactly. Those Ford RS engines were nothing more than a rebadging deal with Ford Europe. It's rediculous especially when compared to the engines used in 1989 and 1990, when there were many tuners (or what's the word, sorry) for Cosworth engines - besides Cosworth itself at least Heini Mader, Langford & Peck and Brian Hart prepared the engines for some teams.

Originally posted by Fletcher

My point exactly. Those Ford RS engines were nothing more than a rebadging deal with Ford Europe. It's rediculous especially when compared to the engines used in 1989 and 1990, when there were many tuners (or what's the word, sorry) for Cosworth engines - besides Cosworth itself at least Heini Mader, Langford & Peck and Brian Hart prepared the engines for some teams.

Absolutely, the Minardi DFRs and the Arrows DFRs could be quite different units.

And a decade earlier Lotus were actually using batches of John Judd prepared engines and batches from other people within the space of a couple of races according to Mansells biog.

I made some changes to the first post because of the dropped 'three-engine-suppliers' rule.

You might also want to add that the eligability of the 2007 teams has been "Fully debated", just to stop this turning into a cycle thing.

I think we've covered all the possible arguements by now and it was of course your choice to make.

Am I right in thinking the last "independant" to win a race outright would be HHF in the tail end of 1999 or have I missed someone?

Originally posted by Dudley



In the very very loosest sense, Ferrari didn't run races and lent the factory drivers and cars to NART in protest against the Italian racing authorities. To call it an independant is pushing it a LOT.

Ferrari even made a car called NART as part of the road line up.

But it's like the Super Auri now....And they (NART) didn't biuld cars

Originally posted by Dudley
You might also want to add that the eligability of the 2007 teams has been "Fully debated", just to stop this turning into a cycle thing. I think we've covered all the possible arguements by now and it was of course your choice to make.

Good point. I added a comment to the first post.

Originally posted by Dudley
Am I right in thinking the last "independant" to win a race outright would be HHF in the tail end of 1999 or have I missed someone?

The last independent driver to win a Grand Prix was Giancarlo Fisichella, in Brazil 2003, driving the Jordan-Ford EJ13. Since then all victories have gone to either Ferrari, Williams, Renault and McLaren.