Massa vs. Kimi scoreboard

In pre season tests Massa undoubtedly was the faster Ferrari driver. Some people were already writing off Kimi's chances and questioning his talent and attitude.

Now after two races, it seems racing isnt only about being nice and doing some fast laps. You have to fight with other cars, and there may also become unexcepted set backs, from where you need to recover.

Massa has shown serious speed in practise, and took a great pole in Sepang, but the rest hasnt gone to plan so far.

Kimi took an easy pole and win in first race. Second race was a damage limitation race and he came away with another podium. Kimi has been unhappy with handling of the car so far, but still got a reasonable start to the season.

It seems Massa is still the fast and wild jungle boy, hoping for better luck. And Kimi turns out with solid results, even when he wasnt meant to.

There's no option for "I don't care".

It's threads like this that make Kimi unpopular, I think. Ironically it's the fans themselves who make other people dislike their heroes. :

Originally posted by Jacquesback
There's no option for "I don't care".

You can always ignore thread which you are not interested in.

Originally posted by freddie
It's threads like this that make Kimi unpopular, I think. Ironically it's the fans themselves who make other people dislike their heroes. :

This thread has nothing to do with Fernando. If you come here only to hear praise for him, I recommend you to ignore this thread as well.

Hmm...to me it looked like Kimi was way faster in Australia. Even in clean air Massa was 1.5 secs per lap slower. Yes he had more fuel onboard...but 1.5 secs???

This weekend it´s tough to make comparisons, as Kimi had detuned engine (according to him it forced them to compromises that made the car MUCH slower...although comments from Todt suggest otherwise?). I´d give Massa the qualifying, though. It was very clean lap. Kimi has been moderately unhappy with the car in qualifying, but said the handling was fine in both races.

We need more races before drawing too many conclusions. So far I´d say Kimi looks more competent racer, but we shall see which one of them ends up being faster. And that´s all I am going to say for now!

I must say that I'm surprised with how the duel between Kimi and Massa has unfolded up until now.

In the preseason I predicted that Kimi would trash Massa and didn't read too much into testing times.

But in my opinion Kimi is struggling with the tires more than other drivers like Alonso. I think he has still to find more speed from the car and that he'll probably make it in the following races. He's much better driver than Massa so he should only be beaten ocasionally by Massa (just like what happened between Schumi and Massa).

Originally posted by freddie
It's threads like this that make Kimi unpopular, I think. Ironically it's the fans themselves who make other people dislike their heroes. :

Agreed.

Originally posted by micra_k10
This thread has nothing to do with Fernando. If you come here only to hear praise for him, I recommend you to ignore this thread as well.

Nothing to do with Fernando in the slightest. Nor any other driver for that matter.

Funnily enough, Kimi said before the season started that he would be fighting his teammate for the WDC, not Alonso. It turns out he was partially right. He will be fighting his teammate for 3rd place in the WDC, whilst Alonso will be fighting Hamilton for the #1 place.

I voted for option 3. Kimi should be able to handle Massa during the races mostly because his race pace is better I think. During qualifying I see that Massa has the edge at the moment because I see that he can get the most out of a single lap. His fastest lap of the race was also faster then Kimi's so this backs up that theory. If Massa finds himself outqualifying Kimi in the next few races perhaps Kimi should change to a lighter fuel strategy and build a comfortable gap during the first stint of the races.

Originally posted by robnyc
I voted for option 3. Kimi should be able to handle Massa during the races mostly because his race pace is better I think. During qualifying I see that Massa has the edge at the moment because I see that he can get the most out of a single lap. His fastest lap of the race was also faster then Kimi's so this backs up that theory. If Massa finds himself outqualifying Kimi in the next few races perhaps Kimi should change to a lighter fuel strategy and build a comfortable gap during the first stint of the races.

I don't know about his race pace, last year Massa was on average closer to Michael on race pace than on qualifying (source, autosport.com review). Maybe Kimi is even quicker, that was everybody was saying, and we'll see about that.

BTW if you think he can choose a lighter strategy to beat Massa, for how long do you think he will be able to do that? Don't you think Massa could demand to go equally light? As long as he is not clearly #2, that could happen.

And even then, the #1 status value for Kimi will be limited if Massa outqualifies him more than is outqualified.

Maybe Ferrari is in for some Alesi-Berger years? Both fast, but not as fast or capable as the best in town.

I am waiting for Rosberg to get a decent car, and Nelson Piquet Jr. to come to the fray. I suspect those will be the ones I will be supporting next year.

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S



BTW if you think he can choose a lighter strategy to beat Massa, for how long do you think he will be able to do that? Don't you think Massa could demand to go equally light? As long as he is not clearly #2, that could happen.

If Massa continues to make mistakes and Kimi capitalizes and collects more points the gap between the two is going to grow and knowing Ferrari they would sacrifice Massa even though he could be the faster of the two on a single lap. They would accommodate for Kimi to run lighter to get better grid position. This is what I think based on what we saw from Shumi/Rubens era. Of course if I was Massa I would be pissed and do everything possible to ruin their plan and challenge Kimi no matter what the team says and if I get fired what the hell.. .. have them hire DC if they want a #2.

Originally posted by freddie
It's threads like this that make Kimi unpopular, I think. Ironically it's the fans themselves who make other people dislike their heroes. :

True. The only annoying thing about Raikkonen are his fans.

Originally posted by robnyc


If Massa continues to make mistakes and Kimi capitalizes and collects more points the gap between the two is going to grow and knowing Ferrari they would sacrifice Massa even though he could be the faster of the two on a single lap. They would accommodate for Kimi to run lighter to get better grid position. This is what I think based on what we saw from Shumi/Rubens era. Of course if I was Massa I would be pissed and do everything possible to ruin their plan and challenge Kimi no matter what the team says and if I get fired what the hell.. .. have them hire DC if they want a #2.

Agree, that may very well happen. I hope Massa get his act together and get consistent from now on. If last year is any indication, he two out of first three horrible races, and then went on being steady and fast. We'll see.

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Agree, that may very well happen. I hope Massa get his act together and get consistent from now on. If last year is any indication, he two out of first three horrible races, and then went on being steady and fast. We'll see.

Your note about last year get on with Kimi very well. I expect him to be much better than now after three races. I dont speak here about Massa vs. Kimi, I just expect that Kimi will improve. But we will see what happens, season is long. It will be good if Massa is competitive, afterall Felipe and Kimi is the strongest pair in F1 IMO, I admire what LH have done so far but he isnt yet there with big 2 AND Felipe.

Originally posted by robnyc
If Massa continues to make mistakes

How many mistakes have Massa made in the first two races? All things considered, he had a perfect race in Australia, went from last to 6th with not a single hick-up, but still, people say that KR won that round, and "crushed" Massa, despite completely different situation for both drivers.

Now, Massa does exactly what he is supposed to do with a Ferrari: he doesnt settle for 3rd place, but, all it takes is a missed braking point, and he is again labelled as a mistake-prone driver.

So, one mistake that cost him 2 positions, and that's it (unless, of course, you're calling a mistake him for not performing the chop and allowing Alonso to take the lead in the first corner).



Well, at least the BBers here show some real consistency: a driver is only as good as his last race. :up::up:

Originally posted by molive


How many mistakes have Massa made in the first two races? All things considered, he had a perfect race in Australia, went from last to 6th with not a single hick-up, but still, people say that KR won that round, and "crushed" Massa, despite completely different situation for both drivers.

Now, Massa does exactly what he is supposed to do with a Ferrari: he doesnt settle for 3rd place, but, all it takes is a missed braking point, and he is again labelled as a mistake-prone driver.

So, one mistake that cost him 2 positions, and that's it (unless, of course, you're calling a mistake him for not performing the chop and allowing Alonso to take the lead in the first corner).



Well, at least the BBers here show some real consistency: a driver is only as good as his last race. :up::up:

I am not a basher, if you read my previous points I criticize every driver when I acknowledge they made a mistake. Massa is actually one of my favorite drivers this year but he did make mistakes in Malaysia.
1. He allowed Alonso and Lewis to overtake him at the start (Kimi too)
2. He ran wide attempting to overtake Lewis.

I give him all of the credit for at least trying very hard to pass LH and not give up that early on the race as opposed to Kimi. Had he made the pass he could have pursuit Alonso and who knows?- things could have gotten very interesting. Maybe a couple of more laps of intense pressure and finally Lewis would have given in or made a mistake that would have allowed him to pass. (see Shumi/Kimi Canada 06)

He has to race to the level of Alonso and Kimi if he wants to become WDC, they rarely make mistakes, I am not saying he cannot but he “most” if he is planning to beat them in the points.

Originally posted by giacomo
True. The only annoying thing about Raikkonen are his fans.

The same applies to all drivers.

Originally posted by robnyc



I am not a basher, if you read my previous points I criticize every driver when I acknowledge they made a mistake. Massa is actually one of my favorite drivers this year but he did make mistakes in Malaysia.
1. He allowed Alonso and Lewis to overtake him at the start (Kimi too)
2. He ran wide attempting to overtake Lewis.

I give him all of the credit for at least trying very hard to pass LH and not give up that early on the race as opposed to Kimi. Had he made the pass he could have pursuit Alonso and who knows?- things could have gotten very interesting. Maybe a couple of more laps of intense pressure and finally Lewis would have given in or made a mistake that would have allowed him to pass. (see Shumi/Kimi Canada 06)

He has to race to the level of Alonso and Kimi if he wants to become WDC, they rarely make mistakes, I am not saying he cannot but he “most” if he is planning to beat them in the points.

Agreed

Kimi = Fast & Smart
Massa = Fast & Not smart

Kimi will totally crush Massa by seasons end.

James Allen on ITV said that Kimi is rumoured to be earning x4 Massas wage.

This puts alot of pressure on Kimi to perform. If he gets beaten over the season by Massa he'll be taking a big pay cut thats for sure.

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
James Allen on ITV said that Kimi is rumoured to be earning x4 Massas wage.

This puts alot of pressure on Kimi to perform. If he gets beaten over the season by Massa he'll be taking a big pay cut thats for sure.

He has a 3 year contract so it's very unlikely he'll be taking a pay cut before it expires.

I didn't vote but I will say this. Racing in general is a very mental sport. Having the psychological advantage over your team mate and the rest of the field is a huge thing to have. Right now Fernando is clearly on top and he has already proved that once he has it he doesn't easily part with it. I believe it might be just a little bit too much for both Kimi and Felipe from now on. If they can come back from this they should be really proud of themselves. Afterall, Michael failed last year to get back that advantage and he made stupid mistakes and errors.

As for Kimi vs Felipe. Same thing applies here. If Felipe can come back from this he must be regarded as a driver with a very strong mentality. The question is, how long will Ferrari continue to produce the means and the environment for Felipe to come back? They really need results this year and if one of the drivers is not up to it they will not let him start the races infront of the other driver. I have a feeling that decision was made after Malaysia. But if there still hasn't been a decision it will come very soon. Barcelona at the latest. Basicly Felipe's entire F1 future will be decided in the next two races. If he has what it takes he must dig deep down inside and produce it now because soon it will be too late.

Originally posted by scheadle
Funnily enough, Kimi said before the season started that he would be fighting his teammate for the WDC, not Alonso. It turns out he was partially right. He will be fighting his teammate for 3rd place in the WDC, whilst Alonso will be fighting Hamilton for the #1 place.

I think he even went as far as saying that this season he would only be seeing the Mac's in his mirrors.

Back to the topic: I'm also one of those who were thinking that if Massa was going to start the season on fire and possibly with a bit of bad luck by Kimi open up a gap in the championship, he could really take the fight to him, but now that it has been the other way around, I really doubt that Massa will be sufficiently consistent to get the job done. I think we could be in for a similar scenario to 2000 when by mid-season MS was the main title contender while RB still had some outside chances before MS really started to seperate himself from his teammate in the second half. In other words I'd not be surprised to see the gap stay around 10-15 points until mid-season.

By the end of the season Kimi and Felipe will have moved to Massachusetts so they can get legally married. They will follow up by creating the world's fastest gay adoption agency.

i think that in the end massa will it with p6 and p5´s.

Originally posted by 512 TR
The question is, how long will Ferrari continue to produce the means and the environment for Felipe to come back? They really need results this year and if one of the drivers is not up to it they will not let him start the races infront of the other driver.

"Start"?

What

Originally posted by 512 TR
I didn't vote but I will say this. Racing in general is a very mental sport. Having the psychological advantage over your team mate and the rest of the field is a huge thing to have. Right now Fernando is clearly on top and he has already proved that once he has it he doesn't easily part with it. I believe it might be just a little bit too much for both Kimi and Felipe from now on. If they can come back from this they should be really proud of themselves. Afterall, Michael failed last year to get back that advantage and he made stupid mistakes and errors.

There's only a 2 point difference between Nando and Kimi!

Originally posted by giacomo
True. The only annoying thing about Raikkonen are his fans.

You forgot to mention his bashers, they are much worse.

Option number 5. Raikkonen completely dominates Massa...

Originally posted by magicalonso
...before MS really started to seperate himself from his teammate in the second half.

you mean, make full use of his #1 status.;)

But, I agree, Felipe really must show some results (win some races) asap.

Good posts, robnyc

Kimi's performance (he's up to speed with a new car remarkably quickly) makes me wish Schumi had stuck around for another year for a fair fight with someone potentially his equal (the first in his life).

Massa's performance at Sepang was summed up by, of all people, James Allen, who doubted that Schumi would have settled for 5th after his attempt on Hamilton.

Felipe seems to have lost the stamina and mental toughness he had last year. If he doesn't regain it, he's going to get Rubensized.

Sorry, but the OP isn't a fair representation of the two races so far (where's the mention that Massa's run in Aus was completely ruined by a reliability failure at a crucial time?)

For me, it's simply too early to tell. We cannot compare based on Melbourne due to the failure on Massa's car (though I personally believe Kimi was the stronger that weekend). In Sepang, Massa made an error. I've heard and read some people saying it's a return to the wild old Massa. It may well be, however one race isn't going to answer that question.

It was telling for me that Massa was faster throughout the weekend at Sepang. He made a mistake trying to make a move on Hamilton. It cost him. Kimi, on the other hand, sat back and waited - which ultimately may have lost him second place, if not the win. He was clearly faster than Hamilton early.

If either Ferrari had passed Hamilton early in that first stint, there's a very good chance that driver would have been in a strong position to challenge for the win. Massa blew it, and Kimi didn't try. For me, both of them lost.

Too early in the season. Come back in 3 races time, with an unbiased poll (what's the purpose of the third option, really? It's the same as the fourth with the sole exception that it's a leading answer). The OP should not try to put forward any analysis either. It should be a straight poll ... simple question with non-leading answers (1. Kimi will come out on top; 2. Massa will come out on top; 3. It will be a close fight.)

Originally posted by micra_k10
In pre season tests Massa undoubtedly was the faster Ferrari driver. Some people were already writing off Kimi's chances and questioning his talent and attitude.

Now after two races, it seems racing isnt only about being nice and doing some fast laps. You have to fight with other cars, and there may also become unexcepted set backs, from where you need to recover.

Massa has shown serious speed in practise, and took a great pole in Sepang, but the rest hasnt gone to plan so far.

Kimi took an easy pole and win in first race. Second race was a damage limitation race and he came away with another podium. Kimi has been unhappy with handling of the car so far, but still got a reasonable start to the season.

It seems Massa is still the fast and wild jungle boy, hoping for better luck. And Kimi turns out with solid results, even when he wasnt meant to.

MIKRA_K10,

Sorry to ask you AGAIN, but what are you doing with your avatar? Are you a supporter of that terrorist supporter with nuclear ambitions, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? You know he openly speaks about detroying Israel off the map? You know that he allows the kidnapping of bloggers, stoning of women and supports terrorist attacks agains Israel? He kills his own citizens without trial, mass execution of political prisoners, murder. They just paraded British sailors with bogus charges.

sources


I can't believe that. Tell me it is not true.

Massa has to understand that winning the pole doesnt mean he is safe and will win the race.He has to keep his cool and not overdrive it.If that happnes things will only fall into kimi's hands.and he will be stuck for the rest of the season as no.2.He is fast no doubt about it.He just has to keep his cool and have patience..Its too early to dismiss him because he made mistakes while overtaking someone in the 2nd race of the season.There are many races to go..he has to come through..i m sure he knows what he has to do..we will see what he does in the next race..best of luck to Felipe.

Originally posted by Spunout
Hmm...to me it looked like Kimi was way faster in Australia. Even in clean air Massa was 1.5 secs per lap slower. Yes he had more fuel onboard...but 1.5 secs???

Give us a break. You know very well just what Massa's strategy and being stuck in traffic did to his laptimes in Australia. There was no chance he was going to be anywhere near Raikkonen's pace, that was damage limitation for Felipe that day. As he showed in Malaysia, had he not had issues he could have had 2 poles in a row to boot, he was generally quicker than KR in the practice sessions, just like Malaysia.

What's Kimi's excuse for not matching Felipe in Malaysia? In race or qualifying? Todt mentioned .1sec a lap he was losing, nothing more. and yes, if Kimi says different I'd say he is lying. Felipe butchered a perfect chance to have a clean sweep of the weekend but I doubt he'll do that again. They are pretty well matched IMO but if Felipe can pass cleaner or generally get better starts from pole, Kimi will have his hands really full.

Originally posted by Spunout


The same applies to all drivers.

not every driver has a HSJ. That's the difference.

Originally posted by molive


How many mistakes have Massa made in the first two races? All things considered, he had a perfect race in Australia, went from last to 6th with not a single hick-up, but still, people say that KR won that round, and "crushed" Massa, despite completely different situation for both drivers.

Now, Massa does exactly what he is supposed to do with a Ferrari: he doesnt settle for 3rd place, but, all it takes is a missed braking point, and he is again labelled as a mistake-prone driver.

So, one mistake that cost him 2 positions, and that's it (unless, of course, you're calling a mistake him for not performing the chop and allowing Alonso to take the lead in the first corner).



Well, at least the BBers here show some real consistency: a driver is only as good as his last race. :up::up:

well said Molive. even though he showed desperation, which was ultimately his downfall, Massa knw he just had to get past, anyway he could. This time it backfired, next time he'll probably nail it.

Originally posted by Piif


He has a 3 year contract so it's very unlikely he'll be taking a pay cut before it expires.

If KR gets beaten, Ferrari will let it slide. If Massa were to beat him 2 years running, It would be take a pay cut or get the boot time. Or they could just pay Massa as much.

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


MIKRA_K10,

Sorry to ask you AGAIN, but what are you doing with your avatar? Are you a supporter of that terrorist supporter with nuclear ambitions, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? You know he openly speaks about detroying Israel off the map? You know that he allows the kidnapping of bloggers, stoning of women and supports terrorist attacks agains Israel? He kills his own citizens without trial, mass execution of political prisoners, murder. They just paraded British sailors with bogus charges.

sources


I can't believe that. Tell me it is not true.

Ever heard of the Paddock Club?

Massa and kimi should focus on beating mclaren right now not each other. Ferrari does not need this drama.

Originally posted by GhostR

It was telling for me that Massa was faster throughout the weekend at Sepang. He made a mistake trying to make a move on Hamilton. It cost him. Kimi, on the other hand, sat back and waited - which ultimately may have lost him second place, if not the win. He was clearly faster than Hamilton early.

With a ****ed up car Kimi brilliantly drove to third place while he as well could have been fifth.

Originally posted by former champ

not every driver has a HSJ. That's the difference.

Indeed they are left with a guy calling himself "former champ".

Originally posted by slapstick


With a ****ed up car Kimi brilliantly drove to third place while he as well could have been fifth.

After a win in Australia where KR didn't even need to try hard and strain the car (his words), the same car was suddenly ****ed-up big time...I don't buy it.

FM gave up after a mistake and drove a subdued and a plainly bad race. KR meanwhile had an off weekend...his performance was far better than FM's one, of course but it wasn't up to Ferrari fans' expectations. Let's hope both of them raise their game for Ferrari's sake.

Originally posted by Choda-Boy
After a win in Australia where KR didn't even need to try hard and strain the car (his words), the same car was suddenly ****ed-up big time...I don't buy it.

FM gave up after a mistake and drove a subdued and a plainly bad race. KR meanwhile had an off weekend...his performance was far better than FM's one, of course but it wasn't up to Ferrari fans' expectations. Let's hope both of them raise their game for Ferrari's sake.

Hrvoje why do you dismiss the water leak? It was plainly obvious the car was detuned to make it to finish. And because of that the Mclaren's were decidedly faster. Third place was brilliant. To say that Kimi had an off weekend is imbecile at best Lauda.

Originally posted by slapstick
Third place was brilliant.

3-5 in the race after 1-3 in the qualifying is depressing, at least for me. I see nothing brilliant there. Where should KR finish had he not been brilliant, in your opinion? Behind a BMW?!? Like FM who f****d up big time?!?

Originally posted by Choda-Boy

...his performance was far better than FM's one, of course but it wasn't up to Ferrari fans' expectations.

Please, explain in what way Kimi's performance was far better than FM's...

Oh dear this is confusing.
How many usernames does this guy have? (i mean choda boy or lauda or whatever)

Originally posted by ahmadhadji



Please, explain in what way Kimi's performance was far better than FM's...

Well, FM qualified 1st (credit for that!) but then faded to 5th after a few mistakes, showing no ambition to improve on that situation. He finished behind a BMW with what is surely a better car. It was an indecent race performance for a Ferrari driver.

KR, OTOH, drove steadily, made no mistakes and at least scored a podium.

Kimi qualified third, lost one place at the start, then drove behind LH for the entire race like a dummy.

There was nothing exceptional in his drive.