Stock Car asides

IF one views this site, http://www.ultimater...y.com/index.htm and pay special attention to unexpected drivers and the road races, and then goes here http://www.racing-re...info/tracks.htm followed by here http://www.racing-re...nfo/road?show=1 one gets a good feel for how varied stock car racing once was, and how many unexpected drivers gave it a shot at least once, and this is only USAC and NASCAR.

Bob

This is worth a look also http://www.racing-re...info/driver.htm

Bob, Bob, Bob..... Those of us having any real interest in, much less any "affection" -- if I may use that term -- for "stock car racing" here, can rest assured that very few others here share that interest. Although I could probably hazard a few guesses as to the reasons for that resounding lack of interest, I have promised not to venture forth any comments which might get bowels growling and/or panties in a wad, I will only hazard to say that stock car racing in America is more than just that under the NASCAR umbrella and is part and parcel of its racing heritage. Of course, that is perhaps the kiss of death right there. Oops, sorry, that just slipped out. Were one to propose that the original Trans-Am series or "production" car classes were simply forms of "stock car racing," well, my goodness, that simply would not do, would it? But, perhaps, I digress....

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Bob, Bob, Bob..... Those of us having any real interest in, much less any "affection" -- if I may use that term -- for "stock car racing" here, can rest assured that very few others here share that interest. Although I could probably hazard a few guesses as to the reasons for that resounding lack of interest, I have promised not to venture forth any comments which might get bowels growling and/or panties in a wad, I will only hazard to say that stock car racing in America is more than just that under the NASCAR umbrella and is part and parcel of its racing heritage. Of course, that is perhaps the kiss of death right there. Oops, sorry, that just slipped out. Were one to propose that the original Trans-Am series or "production" car classes were simply forms of "stock car racing," well, my goodness, that simply would not do, would it? But, perhaps, I digress....

But of course....

It was seeing that Brian Redman drove in a USAC race that really got me checking, plus the fact that Parnelli Jones strapped on a closed circuit vehicle, in a 1978 USAC race at Ontario, for some reason that made me check harder.
Bob

Bob, Check your PM. Don

Gosh Don, despite some that vocally object, I see no problem at all with discussing historical NASCAR items on this forum. I intend to keep doing so when something comes to mind.

Along those lines, do you have any information on the particulars (rules, etc.) on another forgotten and overlooked corner of NASCAR history, the Short Track Division?

Bob, Parnelli's drive at Ontario is, as far as I'm aware, his final appearance in oval track competition, and came years after his "retirement" (never formally announced, as he would rightly point out).

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Bob, Parnelli's drive at Ontario is, as far as I'm aware, his final appearance in oval track competition, and came years after his "retirement" (never formally announced, as he would rightly point out).

I realize that, which is why it amazes me he did it.

Two years later Gurney did one last race at Riverside; the NASCAR statistics showed me that Gurney did actually do a couple of oval track races. I had often wondered why Gurney never drove at Daytona, but found out he did.

I was very surprised to see that Ernie Derr never drove the Daytona 500.

Bob
It would be nice if there was a log of the old NASCAR sportsman/latemodel cars, as I would like to see just who drove them; I know some very well known, to US fans, drivers did.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
....do you have any information on the particulars (rules, etc.) on another forgotten and overlooked corner of NASCAR history, the Short Track Division?

From what I have gathered the technical rules -- at least according to the 1954 NASCAR Record Book -- were the same for the Short Track and Grand National Divisions, except for a very few differences. The Short Track Divison was first run in 1951 and the first Southern in the standings was Lee Petty in seventh, along with Lee Marriott (Baltimore, MD) in 10th and Herb Thomas in 14th as the only ones in the top 15 -- everyone else was froim north of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Short Track Champions 1951 -- 1953
1951 -- Roscoe Hough, Paterson, NJ
1952 -- Neil Cole, Paterson, NJ
1953 -- Jim Reed, Ossining, NY

The Short Track Division was dropped after the 1959 season, with Jim Reed winning the championship from 1953 thru 1957 (being listed as being from Peekskill, NY in the media guide I have), with Lee Petty winning in 1958, and Mrrvin Porter, Lakewood, CA, winning in 1959.

NASCAR had a Speedway Division in 1952 and sort of in 1953, creating a Midget Division in 1953 and lasting until 1960.

Don at the Historic races here in the States the Trans-Am races are the fiercest AND they draw the most spectator interest on a consistent basis.

Don,

Thanks for the info on the Short Track division. I would have guessed that more engine set back might have been allowed for the Short Track cars.

I got to see Marvin Porter do some racing in the late 60's on Southern California tracks. I've always wondered, with the Northeast dominance, how it was exactly that Porter managed to win the '59 title.

Marvin Porter was a pal of Parnelli's from his Jalopy days and they worked together in the Firestone racing tire distribution.

Originally posted by Bob Riebe

It would be nice if there was a log of the old NASCAR sportsman/latemodel cars, as I would like to see just who drove them; I know some very well known, to US fans, drivers did.

That would be interesting. The Permatex race at Riverside International Raceway began attracting road racers like Ron Grable, Jerry Titus and George Follmer. For that matter, some of these same drivers ran in some of the Late Model Sportsman races at Stardust in Las Vegas as well.

These appearances led to "The Follmer Rule", requiring a driver to compete in a set number of NASCAR sanctioned Late Model Sportsman races at short tracks to be eligible to compete in one of the big Permatex races. So, George Follmer showed up at San Gabriel Valley Speedway, a 1/2 mile paved oval in Irwindale, California, to qualify.

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Were one to propose that the original Trans-Am series or "production" car classes were simply forms of "stock car racing," well, my goodness, that simply would not do, would it? But, perhaps, I digress....

And what if one includes the participation and performances of short track Stock Car racers like Dave Dayton, Jim Insolo and Bill Osborne in Trans-Am, or that former Southern California short tracker turned chassis man, Frank Deiny, became much in demand for chassis work for Trans-Am competitors.

Do not overlook the fact that David Pearson won the 1967 Riverside Trans Am in a Bud Moore Mercury Cougar.

An interesting thought, as vulgar, as a whole, that the narcissists seem to find stock car racing, with the road races only a bit more tolerable; Vic Elford, for the multiple times he drove a stock car, none were road races, all were ovals; ditto for Brian Redman, not the semi=normal one-off at Riverside, nope; he strapped on a stocker at-Pocono.

Seems some brits were real racers.
Bob

PS--Jimmy Clark did a--gasp--short track race!

Originally posted by Bob Riebe

PS--Jimmy Clark did a--gasp--short track race!

Rockingham in 1965, if my memory is right. Also, was not Innes Ireland's last race the 1967 Daytona 500?

Originally posted by RA Historian
Rockingham in 1965, if my memory is right. Also, was not Innes Ireland's last race the 1967 Daytona 500?

Innes not only did the 500, he finished 10th in the 100 mile sprint; AND Jackie Oliver did 8 OVAL races, including a 4th at Dover.

Bob

A couple of quick comments here...

Tom, quite true, thanks for the reminder. David Pearson was a very good road racer. I would have liked to have seen him tackle a bit more of it. Of the drivers I watched at Riverside, I rank him among the best. He was very good in the early IROC as well.

Oliver drove for Junie Donlevy in 1972, a car that could be described as a "musical chair" that season. I think it was 12 different drivers in the #90 car that season, among them Motorcycle racer Yvon duHamel, one of the last drives of LeeRoy Yarbrough and a later drive for Fred Lorenzen.

As a brain exercise, I try to see how many of the drivers I can recall without checking

And the first Brit to race NASCAR was, I believe, Brian Naylor.

Donlavey is one of those characters I'd like to hear more about - entered cars for 50 years with just one Championship win and a Daytona qualifier win. Must have loved the craic.

Originally posted by ensign14
And the first Brit to race NASCAR was, I believe, Brian Naylor.

Donlavey is one of those characters I'd like to hear more about - entered cars for 50 years with just one Championship win and a Daytona qualifier win. Must have loved the craic.

Junie, and just the atmosphere most of his races were run under are truly missed.

Pedro Rodriguez, although this is not much of a surprise as he was like Bobby Allison, if it had wheels he drove it, drove six oval races will several top finishes.

Bob

Originally posted by ensign14
And the first Brit to race NASCAR was, I believe, Brian Naylor.

Donlavey is one of those characters I'd like to hear more about - entered cars for 50 years with just one Championship win and a Daytona qualifier win. Must have loved the craic.

ensign14, don't you realize you aren't supposed to be interested in NASCAR or Indy racing?

I remember an lengthy interview with Junie Donlavey. Part of it, he passed along stories about the many drivers he'd had. He rated Fred Lorenzen the best, pointing out that Lorenzen only drove for him late in his career. He told how Lorenzen practiced the car, pulled in and told them "we can make these changes and finish 2nd or 3rd, or leave it alone and finish 5th". Donlavey was always underfinanced, so couldn't make the changes...and Lorenzen finished 5th.

You're right in your assessment, Donlavey simply loved the racing. To give you an idea of the kind of guy Junie Donlavey is, a guy that worked for his Cup team wanted to drive, so Junie let him use one of the cars in ARCA races held as preliminaries to Cup events.