Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

The March next door

Started by David Beard , May 18 2007 19:03

Please log in to reply

55 replies to this topic

#1 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 18 May 2007 - 19:03

I struck up a conversation with a relative at a wedding last year. The relative is a v nice chap, but a football type, so we struggled a bit. He did, however, tell me about a racing car that belonged to his father’s next door neighbour in the 70s. He thought it was an F3 car, and the owner’s, (presumably driver’s) name was Bill. I think this would have been in Kidlington, Oxfordshire. Just received the photo promised during the conversation …

Looks like an Atlantic to me. The only Bill in the locality I could think of was Adrian Reynard’s mate Bill Stone, but did he ever race?

I’m sure TNF can fill in some details….

#2 Gerard Gamand

Member

1,086 posts
Joined: January 07

Posted 18 May 2007 - 19:18

It's a 1973 March chassis

Could be F2, F3 or FA

#3 paulsenna1

Member

265 posts
Joined: July 04

Posted 18 May 2007 - 21:09

I think it's an earlier March with '73 bodywork. There are no forward facing struts on the rollover bar.

Also, the tyres and wing are too big for it to be an F3 and there's no air restrictor on the engine.

Looks like FAtlantic spec to me.

Paul

#4 RTH

Member

6,066 posts
Joined: January 03

Posted 18 May 2007 - 22:33

Originally posted by paulsenna1
I think it's an earlier March with '73 bodywork. There are no forward facing struts on the rollover bar.

Also, the tyres and wing are too big for it to be an F3 and there's no air restrictor on the engine.

Looks like FAtlantic spec to me.

Paul

Well spotted Paul, that GRP rear wing looks like a 712, - up dated to 73Atlantic looks likely.

#5 Twin Window

Nostalgia Host

6,611 posts
Joined: May 04

Posted 18 May 2007 - 23:01

Originally posted by David Beard

He thought it was an F3 car, and the owner’s, (presumably driver’s) name was Bill.

Bill Gubelmann? He had an F.Atlantic March around that time, IIRC...

BTW what is a *football type* exactly?!

#6 macoran

Member

3,989 posts
Joined: August 05

Posted 19 May 2007 - 00:17

Originally posted by Twin Window
BTW what is a *football type* exactly?!

Someone speaking a different language to a DAB type ?

#7 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 19 May 2007 - 08:24

Originally posted by Twin Window
BTW what is a *football type* exactly?!

Someone whose priority today is at Wembley, not at Donington.

#8 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 19 May 2007 - 10:24

Originally posted by Twin Window
Bill Gubelmann? He had an F.Atlantic March around that time, IIRC...

BTW what is a *football type* exactly?!

Wasn't Gubelmann an American? I think my relative would have remembered that.

A football type is someone like the bloke I give a lift to work. When I asked him what he thought about Lewis Hamilton at the weekend, he said "who is Lewis Hamilton". He would also never have heard of Donington....

Back to the March. Yes, I was puzzled by the rollover bar, making it look something of a bitsa. Could the car have been racing in libre, sprints or something , a few years after its hey-day?

#9 Alan Cox

Member

8,397 posts
Joined: March 03

Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:15

It certainly looks to be substantially March to me - could it be a 722, sans side radiators? It's wearing March wheels and 73-series bodywork.

Yes, Gubelmann was American.

#10 petefenelon

Member

4,815 posts
Joined: August 02

Posted 19 May 2007 - 15:16

Unipart might be a hint, when did BL spin it off as a separate brand? 75 or so wasn't it?

Agreed that there is a mismatch between bodywork and chassis and that it looks like a 'bitza' of 71-73 March components so I think it clearly had quite a long competition career - I'd guess the pic is before the Unipart sponsored March F3 team.

#11 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 19 May 2007 - 19:42

Someone whose priority today is at Wembley,

Speaking of which, may I just quietly say....

:clap:

Back to the March!

#12 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 19 May 2007 - 19:50

and can I just say

and then we shrug and say "there's always next season"...

#13 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 20 May 2007 - 09:22

I immediately knew it was a bad idea to mention football in my opening post. Went back to edit it, but too late...

#14 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 20 May 2007 - 09:32

Originally posted by David Beard
I struck up a conversation with a relative at a wedding last year. The relative is a v nice chap, but a football type, so we struggled a bit. He did, however, tell me about a racing car that belonged to his father’s next door neighbour in the 70s. He thought it was an F3 car, and the owner’s, (presumably driver’s) name was Bill. I think this would have been in Kidlington, Oxfordshire. Just received the photo promised during the conversation …

Looks like an Atlantic to me. The only Bill in the locality I could think of was Adrian Reynard’s mate Bill Stone, but did he ever race?

I’m sure TNF can fill in some details….

To get us back on subject, I have checked the OldRacingCars.com records and found no March racing in the UK Atlantic series as #72. However, we're still missing a few programes (hint, hint) so it's possible we've missed it. Ray Mallock's Chequered Flag March 712M/73B was allocated #72 at one race but it didn't arrive. That's not this car.

I would guess that it's a libre car some time in 1974/75.

Allen

#15 Mallory Dan

Member

3,121 posts
Joined: September 03

Posted 21 May 2007 - 11:35

Its not Gubelmann's I'm sure, his was more like a 'proper' F2 March. I'm staggered the assorted F2/FAt experts on here haven't got it yet, and I'd add its a new one on me too! The Team Unipart must give it away surely, at a guess a mid-70s Libre bitza based on a 712M. A back of the grid Jaybrand Silverstone Libre car perhaps

#16 David McKinney

Member

14,156 posts
Joined: November 00

Posted 21 May 2007 - 11:41

Perhaps I should have said it earlier:
The only Bills I have listed driving F2 or Atlantic Marches in this period are Gublemann (already mentioned) and Gowdy, who surely wouldn't have been based in Oxon?
Bill Stone did of course race, but AFAIK the only March on his long list of mounts would have been the 1970 (or 71?) FF car

#17 briggsy

New Member

10 posts
Joined: May 07

Posted 21 May 2007 - 12:29

Looks like a 1971 atlatic car with 1973 nose and cockpit fitted.

#18 ErleMin

Member

94 posts
Joined: January 07

Posted 21 May 2007 - 14:39

Wasn't Gubelmann's dark blue with yellow flash somewhere? As I remember Peter Bloor Racing's Marchs were black but this really looks libre-ish to me - the narrow band numbers give it away a bit I think.

#19 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 21 May 2007 - 19:45

I think what we need is some sort of Sprint & Hillclimb expert. Do we have one on TNF?...;)

I'm beginning to think that naming the driver/owner as Bill might be an unfortunately large red herring. Bill might have just looked after it.

Now then, I knew a chap whose name was Bill, residing in the Kidlington area who spannered for John Bowtell......but I only remember him with a Lola T142 and McLaren Rover...

#20 David McKinney

Member

14,156 posts
Joined: November 00

Posted 21 May 2007 - 19:55

That'll be the John Bowtell who raced a March 73B in 1975 then?

#21 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 07:10

Yes indeed - a 73B of unknown origins that he raced until 1979 by which time it was called a 77P.

Allen

#22 jcbc3

RC Forum Host

12,988 posts
Joined: November 04

Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:24

Limerick by Yoda (Star Wars reference for the thick around here)

There once was a guy named Bill
Maybe ran a March up a hill
Numbered seventytwo
With unipart logo
TNF solve the mystery will

(I'll crawl back under my rock now :blush:

)

#23 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:35

Where was Bowtell based? Was it Oxon? I've just found a number for a car dealer called John Bowtell in Witney, Oxfordshire.

Allen

#24 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:55

That was him but he sold the business five years ago. I've just spoken to his wife. Will report back shortly.

#25 Stephen W

Member

15,587 posts
Joined: December 04

Posted 22 May 2007 - 08:58

Originally posted by David Beard
I think what we need is some sort of Sprint & Hillclimb expert. Do we have one on TNF?...;)

David, I have been keeping an eye on this thread since it started. The car is definately a BITZA using various parts from different years (as pointed out earlier in the thread). This was/is common practice in the Speed Event world.

I have had a look through my back-catalogue of photos and the car isn't in there. The roll-bar support being a single back-ward facing strut is similar to that used on a 712 March but also features on the 772P and 80A.

My money would be on a 712 that had been upgraded with newer bodywork. I also think it is in FAtlantic/FLibre spec.

:wave:

#26 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:12

Originally posted by Allen Brown
That was him but he sold the business five years ago. I've just spoken to his wife. Will report back shortly.

If you get through to him ask about his chum Bill Jacket-Simpson.

#27 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 10:08

This is indeed John Bowtell's Atlantic March and John recognises the backdrop as being the back of his garage. This is how the car looked when he bought it and Bill was one of the friends who helped run it.

The car came from a garage in Salisbury but John can't recall exactly who it was and never knew the car's origins. I've seen adverts for cars from a Salisbury phone number so it may be possible to solve that one. John says it was a 1971 car with 1973 mods and he then modified it further as they ran it through the next few seasons. He sold it after the 1977 season and bought a "77P" rolling chassis from John Bright for 1978. He fitted this second March with a 2-litre BDX bought from Ray Mallock and ran it in libre in 1978 and 1979 before retiring. He sold the car in early 1980 and will try to remember where it went.

David - John is still friends with Bill and is going to mention this to him.

My thanks to Mr and Mrs Bowtell for their time this morning.

Allen

#28 Barry Boor

Member

11,549 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 10:26

Another wonderful piece of TNF detection.

What stars some of you guys are!

#29 Mallory Dan

Member

3,121 posts
Joined: September 03

Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:16

Allen, thats brilliant ! The Bowtell Marches have puzzled us for a while now haven't they? However, I think John's memory is a little out on the dates - hardly surprising after all this time!

I saw him in a car, titled a 74B, at a Mallory Libre June 78 (race won by Hunter's B35 from Muter Lotus 69, Ken Silverstone B38 then John). I'm fairly certain it was the 'older' car. At the October Donny meet he was also out in the '74B'.

Then at Silverstone April 79, he's in a '77P', which definitely lloked like a different, and newer car. He also used this in a good few FAt races in 1980. I had thought this car may have been the de Dryver '778', I guess it was based on the ex-Bright 773 though.

#30 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:36

Didn't John Bright race for Gerard? He raced Gerard's 773 in 1979 so that can't be the same car. Maybe it was Gerard's 778/77P thing sold for him by Bright??

Allen

#31 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:54

Originally posted by Allen Brown
This is indeed John Bowtell's Atlantic March .............
Allen

Brilliant stuff Allen, and funny how it's all turned out!

Bill is actually an old friend of mine from Oxford Poly who I should see more of than I do. (Last met him at a Poly reunion with Martin Ridehalgh and Keith Martin about three years ago). He used to talk about the stuff he did with John Bowtell (but I never met him).

I had thought of finding the answer through Bill but you beat me to it, Allen. Bear in mind I was only guessing wildly when I suggested the March might be Bowtell's!

#32 Mallory Dan

Member

3,121 posts
Joined: September 03

Posted 22 May 2007 - 12:49

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Didn't John Bright race for Gerard? He raced Gerard's 773 in 1979 so that can't be the same car. Maybe it was Gerard's 778/77P thing sold for him by Bright??

Allen

I think John B owned his 773 outright, for F3 after he'd bashed up his Wheatcroft more than once. He then had, at least, 2 separate 773s, writing the first one off. He may have had some backing and support from Bob G, both were Leicester-based (as was I) at this time.

So the 2nd Bowtell car could well have been the elusive 778, as you say its quite possible John B sold it on behalf of Bob G. Quite coincidentally, Bill Gubelmann was also involved with Bob Gerard from memory. Alternatively, could it have been based on the remains of the 1st John B 773...

Aren't we getting fluffy on here, we'll get sent to the other place if we carry on like this!

#33 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 13:22

You're right Dan, I've only just realised that we're not where we normally are.

You didn't have your camera with you at Silverstone April 79 did you?

Allen

#34 Stephen W

Member

15,587 posts
Joined: December 04

Posted 22 May 2007 - 16:06

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Then at Silverstone April 79, he's in a '77P', which definitely lloked like a different, and newer car.

Dan, what meeting & what race was this?

:wave:

#35 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 22 May 2007 - 16:27

30 April BRSCC libre championship round? Russell won from the usual suspects - Orgee, Barton, Jordan, Watson...

#36 ghinzani

Member

2,027 posts
Joined: October 01

Posted 22 May 2007 - 16:49

Originally posted by Allen Brown
You're right Dan, I've only just realised that we're not where we normally are.

Where be that?

#37 David Beard

Member

4,997 posts
Joined: July 02

Posted 22 May 2007 - 17:01

Originally posted by ghinzani

Where be that?

SShhhhush....

I think they mean Ten Tenths

#38 ghinzani

Member

2,027 posts
Joined: October 01

Posted 22 May 2007 - 18:06

Originally posted by David Beard

SShhhhush....

I think they mean Ten Tenths

Oh!

I have strange powers there...

#39 Ray Bell

Member

80,271 posts
Joined: December 99

Posted 22 May 2007 - 22:02

Originally posted by ghinzani
I have strange powers there...

You're not the only one...

Some of them over there think they have the power of god over me.

Anyway, back on topic, from my recollection, the Unipart thing was about 1978... wasn't it? I could look up when it came to Australia with some accuracy, but it may have been a little earlier in England. But I'd doubt it was more than a few months.

This might put a new complexion on things...

#40 ghinzani

Member

2,027 posts
Joined: October 01

Posted 23 May 2007 - 00:33

Originally posted by Ray Bell

You're not the only one...

Some of them over there think they have the power of god over me.

Anyway, back on topic, from my recollection, the Unipart thing was about 1978... wasn't it? I could look up when it came to Australia with some accuracy, but it may have been a little earlier in England. But I'd doubt it was more than a few months.

This might put a new complexion on things...

Something gnaws at me that Unipart ran a scheme in the 70s a bit like Demon Tweeks did in the 90s whereby if your car was seen with their stickers on you got a discount or money or somesuch - maybe the Unipart signage was part of that and nothing to do with the DPR/Triumph business? I believe Castrol did similar. Good company Castrol, always seem very grass roots to me (from my karting paramecium viewpoint).

#41 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 23 May 2007 - 11:08

The word "salisbury" kept niggling at the back of my mind ...

Then I remembered - years ago Sandy Topin of Ecurie Santos told me that he sold a F1 March to a man who had a garage in Salisbury. I looked up my interview notes and the name was ... pause for drum roll ... Mike Sullivan!

So is this the same Mike Sullivan who had the Multiglide March 712M/73B? Over at the other place we've accounted for that car twice already, once as the Kim Mather libre car and once as Norman Dickson's car but maybe both are wrong.

So I checked some adverts that I happened to have indexed for a completely different purpose and found the Multiglide March ("712 tub") advertised from a Salisbury phone number in July 1974.

Posted Image

Clearly not the same car. However, a week later an advert was placed for a March monocoque. Maybe Sullivan later accumulated all his remaining parts and built them into the car John bought? The timing is right. The location is right. The rest is speculation.

Allen

#42 ghinzani

Member

2,027 posts
Joined: October 01

Posted 23 May 2007 - 11:21

If only I could go back in time with my wages, I'd own a March instead of an MBA kart ! I wonder where in Salisbury that was ? I am just down the road so would'nt be difficult to ascertain if anything still exists (ie garage or site wise).

#43 Mallory Dan

Member

3,121 posts
Joined: September 03

Posted 23 May 2007 - 11:51

Wasn't Mike Gue based in this area at some point in the 70s?

#44 ErleMin

Member

94 posts
Joined: January 07

Posted 23 May 2007 - 14:01

I thought Mike Gue was in West London (Chiswick) area?

#45 Chris Townsend

Member

384 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 23 May 2007 - 17:03

I'm sure that Dickson's 74B was the ex Sullivan Multiglide 712M.
At Oulton Park 4 May 74 Adam Ferrington observed the plate on that car as 712M-9.
At Oulton 26 May 75 Autosport reports Dickson's car as 'ex everybody and Multiglide' and after that I figure it disappears north of the border.

There is, however, another possibility. Sullivan was at one stage meant to be buying an ex works 722 kitted as a 74B. I don't think this car ever appeared, and indeed it may have fallen through, but he could well have had this car in bits as a spare to keep the 712M going.

#46 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 23 May 2007 - 18:32

Chris

Just going through the Atlantic results and this advert appears immediately after Richard Knight's last race in the Multiglide March. There's then no appearance of the car until John Sheldon's two races in October - and at Oulton his car is entered as a 74B. Could Sullivan have sold the 712M in July/August and then brought out the replacement 722/74B in October? That could explain why both Dickson and Mather have ex-Multiglide cars.

None of this explains John's car of course but one step at a time...

Allen

#47 Chris Townsend

Member

384 posts
Joined: February 03

Posted 23 May 2007 - 20:03

Allen

I've just been looking at one of Gerald Swan's pictures from the British GP support race of 1974. The Multiglide car in the Autosport photo is not the car run by Sullivan at the British GP. [I'm just about to email you the pic.]
It's not only shed the Falconer bodywork in favour of a full 74B spec flat nose and side radiators, it appears to have a significantly different rear bulkhead behind the driver. Indeed, it looks strikingly like Kim Mather's '742' of a couple of years later [and nothing like the Bowtell car] I do have a colour photo of Bowtell's car somewhere, in the paddock of a 1977 ShellSport race at Thruxton. IIRC by then it had a flat nose and side rads, but it wasn't a standard March nose but more like the kind of thing that the Arnold team put on their 722s in South America in late 72.

Chris

#48 Mallory Dan

Member

3,121 posts
Joined: September 03

Posted 24 May 2007 - 12:05

Kim has told me on more than 1 occasion, that his bitza was ex-MultiGlide/Alan Jones - or based on it at least. The Dickson car was described to me in 1976 (I was only 13 at the time!) as a '72B', by his mechanic.

#49 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 24 May 2007 - 16:41

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Wasn't Mike Gue based in this area at some point in the 70s?

I'm trying to think who might have known Mike Sullivan and may have kept in touch. I tried Spencer Elton but he's not in at the moment. Stockbridge is quite close which was John Fenning's neck of the woods I think.

There is a M.H Sullivan in the phone book at Romsey, about 15 miles down the road from Salisbury but Sullivan's probably too common a name for that to be a likely match.

Anyone have any ideas how to find him?

Allen

#50 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 24 May 2007 - 16:55

Aren't Janspeed in Salisbury? Who knows someone at Janspeed who they could ask?

Back to The Nostalgia Forum

Quick Navigation

The March next door

#1 David Beard

#2 Gerard Gamand

#3 paulsenna1

#4 RTH

#5 Twin Window

#6 macoran

#7 Allen Brown

#8 David Beard

#9 Alan Cox

#10 petefenelon

#11 Barry Boor

#12 Allen Brown

#13 David Beard

#14 Allen Brown

#15 Mallory Dan

#16 David McKinney

#17 briggsy

#18 ErleMin

#19 David Beard

#20 David McKinney

#21 Allen Brown

#22 jcbc3

#23 Allen Brown

#24 Allen Brown

#25 Stephen W

#26 David Beard

#27 Allen Brown

#28 Barry Boor

#29 Mallory Dan

#30 Allen Brown

#31 David Beard

#32 Mallory Dan

#33 Allen Brown

#34 Stephen W

#35 Allen Brown

#36 ghinzani

#37 David Beard

#38 ghinzani

#39 Ray Bell

#40 ghinzani

#41 Allen Brown

#42 ghinzani

#43 Mallory Dan

#44 ErleMin

#45 Chris Townsend

#46 Allen Brown

#47 Chris Townsend

#48 Mallory Dan

#49 Allen Brown

#50 Allen Brown

Sign In