Single-seaters at Le Mans
#1
Posted 15 July 2007 - 06:20
I was therefore wondering how WR got around those rule at Le Mans from 1993 to 1996 with their single seat LM93, the only possible explanation being that as a French team they were exempt from the normal rules that the ACO applied to all other nationalities !
I haven't of the top of my head found any other cars in the history of Le Mans, classic or modern, that had an F1 style single seat appearance. Were there others ?
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#2
Posted 15 July 2007 - 07:44
Bit like the rule saying you have to carry a spare wheel, or going way back, laps with the roof up, before lowering it!!
#3
Posted 15 July 2007 - 08:17
#4
Posted 15 July 2007 - 09:03
#5
Posted 15 July 2007 - 10:32
In 1955 they had central seats, as did many other cars.Originally posted by Barry Boor
True, Rob, but they were all genuine 2 seaters...
#6
Posted 15 July 2007 - 12:08
In 1955 they had central seats, as did many other cars.
Roger, most of the cars I'm aware of in 1955 (and even later years) may have had the appearance of a single seater, but the driver was seated on the right, with a removeable cowling on the left hand side that covered the theoretical passenger seat. The D-Type Jaguars, Aston Martin's, Bristol's, Mercedes 300 SL, Ferrari 750's, Cunninghams, Fraser Nash all had the same configuration. Technically, they were two seaters, even if the second seat wasn't visible.
Here's a model of the '55 Cooper that fits the above description - its certainly not a central seat.
#7
Posted 15 July 2007 - 13:41
What I wonder would the ACO have said if it had been Colin Chapman putting the car through technical scrutineering ?
#8
Posted 15 July 2007 - 14:14
Originally posted by RTH
What I wonder would the ACO have said if it had been Colin Chapman putting the car through technical scrutineering ?
I suspect that Mr Chapman would have reached for his famous ruler, it worked well enough for him in past conflicts with the French.
#9
Posted 15 July 2007 - 14:27
i always thought the cooper had its seat on the centre-line of the car; Doug Nye's Cooper Cars says so. Denis Jenkinson's report of the 1955 Le Mans race referred to central driving seat Panhards, DBs and Coopers. They were all technically two seaters.Originally posted by Jager
Roger, most of the cars I'm aware of in 1955 (and even later years) may have had the appearance of a single seater, but the driver was seated on the right, with a removeable cowling on the left hand side that covered the theoretical passenger seat. The D-Type Jaguars, Aston Martin's, Bristol's, Mercedes 300 SL, Ferrari 750's, Cunninghams, Fraser Nash all had the same configuration. Technically, they were two seaters, even if the second seat wasn't visible.
Here's a model of the '55 Cooper that fits the above description - its certainly not a central seat.
#10
Posted 15 July 2007 - 14:51
There was no space for a second seat.
Also the Nardi was a single seater: on the right side the driver, in the middle the radiator and on the left the
engine.
#11
Posted 15 July 2007 - 15:07
#12
Posted 15 July 2007 - 15:59
Originally posted by Jager
Roger, most of the cars I'm aware of in 1955 (and even later years) may have had the appearance of a single seater, but the driver was seated on the right, with a removeable cowling on the left hand side that covered the theoretical passenger seat. The D-Type Jaguars, Aston Martin's, Bristol's, Mercedes 300 SL, Ferrari 750's, Cunninghams, Fraser Nash all had the same configuration. Technically, they were two seaters, even if the second seat wasn't visible.
Here's a model of the '55 Cooper that fits the above description - its certainly not a central seat.
Jager..talking to Roger like that about D Types etc brings to mind something about eggs and grandmothers.
And like Tony I think there is some illusion going on with the photo of the model.
Page 119 of DCN's Cooper book shows Bobtail No. 47 looking very centrally seated. The caption confirms central seats were legal in 1955.
#13
Posted 15 July 2007 - 16:24
Jean Behra Gordini
#14
Posted 15 July 2007 - 18:53
As for the WR cars - weren't they running in a separate class for cars eligible for a French domestic series who were invited along to fill out the field?
#15
Posted 15 July 2007 - 19:39
Originally posted by D-Type
I think the 1950's central seat cars had a second seat tucked away on one side. Then the regulations were changed to two seats one on each side of the centreline
That was true for the Gordini. A seat was arranged into the left side for the Tour de France.
It was not the case for the DB and other small cars.
#16
Posted 15 July 2007 - 20:17
Sorry for my english...
But read several books to find the first single-seater, but it's difficult because a lot of cars have a second seat but often close by different materiel (leather, body...)
Often the second place was too small for an other person...
RUDI present the DB in 1955 but the year before DB n#56 is a single-seater like the GORDINI n#19
I think that the most popular single-seater from Le Mans is the NARDI in 1955
http://www.velocetod...mber 06/cm7.jpg
Bye
HK
#17
Posted 15 July 2007 - 20:54
The C-type had the seat on the right, and a small plate covering the left-hand side of the cockpit, but fundamentally a genuine two seater.
C-type
The D-type had the seat on the right as well, but had the instruments covering the left-hand side of the cockpit; technically a two seater, but very uncomfortable at best!!
D-type
I am not sure the rules stated a minimum size for the passenger
In the same fashion, I believe either Toyota or Nissan had the required luggage space - and then put the fuel tank in it...
#18
Posted 15 July 2007 - 21:07
#19
Posted 15 July 2007 - 21:31
These new regulations that also affected engine sizes presumably put an end to the quasi single seater configurations. As for comfort, on the original works D types the cars had a curved dashboard angled toward the driver, but the passenger seat was useable albeit without a screen, and the C type passenger arrangements were adequate as per the Mille Miglia. In 1955 the new works long nose cars had a few bits and pieces in and on the passenger seat plus a CAV fuel filter and plumbing that fitted between the seats (to counter the recurring dirty fuel that was a period feature at the Sarthe), so these were unuseable.
However by 1956 all this had gone, although of course passenger seats in two seater racing cars were never going to be comfortable, they just had to conform to the regulations.
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#20
Posted 15 July 2007 - 23:06
Originally posted by rudi
Also the Nardi was a single seater: on the right side the driver, in the middle the radiator and on the left the engine.
Indeed!
#21
Posted 16 July 2007 - 01:07
#22
Posted 16 July 2007 - 08:07
There wasn't a huge difference between a formula car and a sports car in the 1950s. For example, Porsche's 718/2 Formula 2 car was just a modification to their 718 sports car.
Anyone know when the rule changed so that the two seats had to be either side of the centre line? That rule was in place by the time of the Zerex Special in 1962 but I don't know when it came in.
Allen
#23
Posted 16 July 2007 - 11:32
Nowadays rules are 2 seaters, but have a closest look to all cars and you wont find a second seat ! Even in the Aston Martin, the passenger place is taken by the AC !
#24
Posted 16 July 2007 - 17:36
#25
Posted 16 July 2007 - 17:48
#26
Posted 16 July 2007 - 18:49
#27
Posted 16 July 2007 - 19:22
#28
Posted 16 July 2007 - 19:58
He says that there was a major change of the Le Mans rules for 1956. In addition to an overall limit of 2.5 litres for prototypes he says: "They also laid down new body dimensions that were more appropriate to everyday sports than to two-seater racing cars. (The new measurements for interior width, for example, were 120 cm. instead of 90 cm., while the space for the 'passenger', although it could be covered in, allowed for a seat atleast 50 cm. wide.) At the same time a full width screen was made obligatory for all cars ~".
Then Cyril Posthumus in his World Sports Car Championship (1961) says that the revised version of Appendix C the FIA International Sporting Code was anounced at the end of 1956 and was almost a carbon copy of the 1956 Le Mans regulations without the capacity limit.
So from 1957, sports cars in international races including Le Mans had to be two seaters. Until the 90s ...
Peter Higham mentions a 'National sports-prototype' class in 1992 and 'Le Mans Prototype' class in 1993-95 won by a WR and a Debora which are presumably the single seaters referred to by Jager in post 1.
#29
Posted 16 July 2007 - 21:09
The new class in 1993 was LMP, which are the ancestors of LMP2. Until 1997, Several WR came, a Debora came also a Lucchini fron Italian ALFA CUP.
#30
Posted 16 July 2007 - 22:22
Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
and even Pro Sport 3000 (but non of these english cars came to Le Mans ! Bernie's fault ?)
Possibly my least favourite racing cars ever (well, maybe Formula First was worse). They looked funny, sounded wrong (old Ford Granada V6!), and weren't very fast. I didn't like them as a one-make series and when they started turning up in other things (British GT? WHAT? Historic Group C? WHAT?) I really started getting annoyed by them.
A load of them ended up being used in a miniseries of Maclean's The Way To Dusty Death. At least one of them was crudely painted up to look like a Sauber-Merc.
Shudder.
#31
Posted 16 July 2007 - 23:41
If my memory serves me well, the ACO forced "il dottore" Damonte to cut out a tube from the chassis to provide enough space for its potential "passenger". When the car crashed early during the race, Damonte claimed that it was due to a subsequent lack a stability ...Originally posted by D-Type
I've had alook at David Hodges' 1963 history of Le Mans. He has a photo of the 1955 Nardi with a hatch in the centre removed and a caption that says "... and absurd extreme: the Nardi which failed to finish in 1955. 'Passenger space' was provided between the booms." so that's how the Nardi complied.
Not sure what the real cause of this crash was but even today I doubt that those missing inches of a tube had made that much a difference ...
By the way, AFAIR Damonte was a dispensing chemist from Torino.