German newspaper claims that McLaren have threatened to sue Fernando Alonso if he talks about his time at McLaren:
http://www.typically...cle_13394.shtml
This fits in with what Brundle described as Alonso's 'charm offensive' in Brazil and the prepared statement issued this week:
"I know there have been suggestions of favouritism within the team and people say a lot of things in the heat of battle, but in the end I was always provided with an equal opportunity to win."
I mean who really believes Alonso would say that off his own bat?
Alonso gagged from telling the truth about McLaren bias?
Started by
pjabyrne
, Nov 03 2007 18:11
102 replies to this topic
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#2
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:16
Typicallyspanish.com might be the best url ever posted in RC.
#3
jokuvaan
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:17
equal opportunity is different than good opportunity, I think it was quite clever way of saying things.
#4
Asperon
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:18
Rest assured that both press releases were scowered over by a team of lawyers. There would definately be conditions from Mclaren to allow Alonso leave and keeping quiet was condition No1.The fact that this equality issue was even mentioned in the press release says it all. Mclaren want to protect themselves from the truth coming out. Dont worry, it will in good time.
#5
teomolca
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:21
Does sound like something McLaren would do.
PdlR who is commentator for Spanish TV wasn't allowed to talk about the Stepneygate after Hungary, and for the last race McLaren directly banned him from commentating in TV.
PdlR who is commentator for Spanish TV wasn't allowed to talk about the Stepneygate after Hungary, and for the last race McLaren directly banned him from commentating in TV.
#6
kar
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:26
There's a lot of talk about Ferrari conspiracy stories and what not, but given Jon Noble's comments in this week's journal, Ron Dennis' reported behaviour in the motorhome toward those reading publications not vetted by his minister for information and the nebulous nature of Fernando's release, I'm surprised more people don't talk about McLaren's particularly ruthless approach to it's image.
Whereas it seems fair game to spew whatever you like about Ferrari, do it against McLaren and there are consequences.
Seems Fernando's release continued that.
Whereas it seems fair game to spew whatever you like about Ferrari, do it against McLaren and there are consequences.
Seems Fernando's release continued that.
#7
Uwe
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:28
Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Typicallyspanish.com might be the best url ever posted in RC.
#8
AyePirate
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:44
All I know is Alonso bitched and moaned when he was at Renault about being "abandoned" even when the team was geared to him as a clear number 1. Alonso repaid this loyalty by sneaking behind his team's back and signing with McLaren where he was confronted the unexpected -an equally fast, equal team mate. From there his bitching and moaning escalated into full on meltdown.
The only thing in common between Renault and McLaren is Alonso and his whingeing. He will do the same wherever he goes.
Given Alonso's consistent lack of honor, only a fool would release him without a "no- whinge clause".
The only thing in common between Renault and McLaren is Alonso and his whingeing. He will do the same wherever he goes.
Given Alonso's consistent lack of honor, only a fool would release him without a "no- whinge clause".
#9
fastlegs
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:46
Originally posted by Asperon
Rest assured that both press releases were scowered over by a team of lawyers. There would definately be conditions from Mclaren to allow Alonso leave and keeping quiet was condition No1.The fact that this equality issue was even mentioned in the press release says it all. Mclaren want to protect themselves from the truth coming out. Dont worry, it will in good time.
I think your assessment is bang on.
#10
Risil
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 19:04
Originally posted by Asperon
Rest assured that both press releases were scowered over by a team of lawyers. There would definately be conditions from Mclaren to allow Alonso leave and keeping quiet was condition No1.The fact that this equality issue was even mentioned in the press release says it all. Mclaren want to protect themselves from the truth coming out. Dont worry, it will in good time.
Conversely, the truth about Alonso's actions towards Mclaren in Hungary will also come out, in time, and no doubt Alonso's lawyers are similarly anxious to delay this process.
#11
Asperon
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 19:39
Originally posted by Risil
Conversely, the truth about Alonso's actions towards Mclaren in Hungary will also come out, in time, and no doubt Alonso's lawyers are similarly anxious to delay this process.
Well Mclarens version of the truth already has hasnt it? Im waiting for Alonsos version.
#12
Risil
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 19:47
Originally posted by Asperon
Well Mclarens version of the truth already has hasnt it? Im waiting for Alonsos version.
We haven't heard very much of it. Beyond what was necessary to explain the reopening of the espionage case, I mean. Things said, as Alonso put it, "in the heat of battle." Alonso has a history of saying such things, and is commendably not so stubborn as to stick to them afterwards.
Best to let bygones be bygones, and not to entertain too violent an opinion of people acting in what were tremendously difficult circumstances, IMO.
#13
Rogue
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:06
I suspect any gagging would run both ways - I can't imagine Alonso would want his name attached to any further stories relating to blackmail or anything like that any more than McLaren want their name attached to more stories about equality.
#15
primer
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:26
Originally posted by Rogue
I suspect any gagging would run both ways
That is precisely my impression from reading the Mclaren press release. Both sides have decided (for now!) that perhaps enough damage has been done; it would be better to pretend to part amicably and focus on their respective futures.
This press release will go down in history and be always remembered as one of the rare highs of this Mclaren-Alonso partnership.
#16
AndreasF1
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:27
At the end of the day, Alonso pulled a Prost and ran from a faster teammate. Thats what he'll be remembered for 
#17
Fatgadget
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:30
What is Rossi saying?
#18
MichaelPM
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:35
So he left a team knowing the other driver was getting preferential treatment and was benifiting from his setup like Prost?Originally posted by AndreasF1
At the end of the day, Alonso pulled a Prost and ran from a faster teammate. Thats what he'll be remembered for
I always prefare Alonso being compared to Prost rather then Senna, thanks.
Ofcourse I dont expect Senna (he was very mouthy), Schumacher or hamilton to accept those conditions like a chump and let others walk all over them. If they didnt "whine" they would be pathetic.
#19
hedges
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:42
I doubt there is anything more that could come out about Alonso, he was only an employee and other than the spy scandal had no leverage whatsoever. Without doubt both McLarens and Alonsos press releases were penned by McLaren. Standard stuff though, both sides get what they want I guess.
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#20
Suntrek
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:45
Ron Dennis has banned the Red Bull magazine from the McLaren hospitality centre -anyone carrying it or reading it gets thrown out (well, the Swedish journalist who reported this left volunteerily) so I suppose he's not especially keen on freedom of speech.
Come to think about it, we sort of knew that already... :
Come to think about it, we sort of knew that already... :
#21
santori
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:52
Originally posted by Fatgadget
What is Rossi saying?
I think he compares Alonso's situation to the situation he faced towards the end at Honda and adds that it was worse for Fernando because the team backed Hamilton, adding something about Hamilton and the team both being English and 'with the English, as you know...' (I think). Mclaren didn't treat Alonso as they ought to have done? It has harmed him?
And then the article speculates that he's telling Yamaha that he doesn't want troubles like that with Lorenzo. I think. (Babelfish, me).
#22
Jongleur
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:52
There's no percentage in 'spilling the dirt' and both sides need to handle themselves professionally over the split. What sponsor would want to be associated with a party who can't be associated with their product in a positive way.
More to the point, don't you think events are probably more driven by the sponsors rather than team management when it comes to these releases?
More to the point, don't you think events are probably more driven by the sponsors rather than team management when it comes to these releases?
#23
Fatgadget
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 20:55
Originally posted by Suntrek
Ron Dennis has banned the Red Bull magazine from the McLaren hospitality centre -anyone carrying it or reading it gets thrown out (well, the Swedish journalist who reported this left volunteerily) so I suppose he's not especially keen on freedom of speech.
Come to think about it, we sort of knew that already... :
I too would throw out a magazine that says unfounded disparaging things about me should said magazine find its way into my house.And I am all for freedom of speech. With freedom comes responsibility. If freedom is abused anarchy follows.
#24
Suntrek
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 21:00
Originally posted by Fatgadget
I too would throw out a magazine that says unfounded disparaging things about me should said magazine find its way into my house.
Not sure what the RB magazine says, after what I understand it's mostly a satiric thingy.
However, point is that the rest of the teams seem to be able to live with this, but not McLaren...
#25
Bloggsworth
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 21:06
Anyone who believes there was bias needs a visit from the men in white coats.
#26
Asperon
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 21:08
Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Anyone who believes there was bias needs a visit from the men in white coats.
So you were part of the Mclaren team and speaking from your inside team experience?
#27
Fatgadget
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 21:10
Well,just because you can tolerate something I too am obliged to follow suite am I?Originally posted by Suntrek
Not sure what the RB magazine says, after what I understand it's mostly a satiric thingy.
However, point is that the rest of the teams seem to be able to live with this, but not McLaren...
#28
AndreasF1
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 22:24
Michael PM wrote:
So he left a team knowing the other driver was getting preferential treatment and was benifiting from his setup like Prost?
__________________________________________________________________________
Funny you would say that. Didn't Senna continue to dominate after Prost's departure? WDC 1990 and 1991...
So he left a team knowing the other driver was getting preferential treatment and was benifiting from his setup like Prost?
__________________________________________________________________________
Funny you would say that. Didn't Senna continue to dominate after Prost's departure? WDC 1990 and 1991...
#29
F1Fanatic.co.uk
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 22:27
The originator of the story is Bild, so I won't be inclined to believe it until I see it substantiated somewhere more reputable.
#30
Suntrek
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 22:29
Originally posted by Fatgadget
Well,just because you can tolerate something I too am obliged to follow suite am I?
Of course not.
But to be intolerant to the extent that you have special employees supervising which magazines people carry and if it's the "wrong" ones they are told to give them up or else leave gives at least me a bad taste in the mouth.
#31
Juan Kerr
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 22:59
So believe nothing yeah ? My my that'll get you far in life !Originally posted by pjabyrne
German newspaper claims that McLaren have threatened to sue Fernando Alonso if he talks about his time at McLaren:
http://www.typically...cle_13394.shtml
This fits in with what Brundle described as Alonso's 'charm offensive' in Brazil and the prepared statement issued this week:
"I know there have been suggestions of favouritism within the team and people say a lot of things in the heat of battle, but in the end I was always provided with an equal opportunity to win."
I mean who really believes Alonso would say that off his own bat?
#32
BunnyK
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 23:12
Originally posted by Suntrek
Ron Dennis has banned the Red Bull magazine from the McLaren hospitality centre -anyone carrying it or reading it gets thrown out (well, the Swedish journalist who reported this left volunteerily) so I suppose he's not especially keen on freedom of speech.
That sounds strange because I've seen a photograph of Norbert Haugh hanging the Red Bull magazine, and it looked like it was taken after the ban.
s!
#33
MichaelPM
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 23:15
Benifiting - DependantOriginally posted by AndreasF1
Michael PM wrote:
So he left a team knowing the other driver was getting preferential treatment and was benifiting from his setup like Prost?
__________________________________________________________________________
Funny you would say that. Didn't Senna continue to dominate after Prost's departure? WDC 1990 and 1991...
Rather different words.
#34
JSDSKI
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Posted 03 November 2007 - 23:37
Originally posted by Fatgadget
I too would throw out a magazine that says unfounded disparaging things about me should said magazine find its way into my house.And I am all for freedom of speech. With freedom comes responsibility. If freedom is abused anarchy follows.
Certainly your right to cover abuse in your own house it protected- especially as a private citizen. The rules, fortunately for freedom's sake, are different for public figures and public discourse. Anarchy is a peculiarly immature response to a lack of direction or apathy in a society. The real abuse of freedom is censorship.
On topic: RD is an admitted control freak. His emotional need for that illusion overweighs most other consideration in his professional life. Just my opinion.
#35
Bloggsworth
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Posted 04 November 2007 - 10:01
Originally posted by Asperon
So you were part of the Mclaren team and speaking from your inside team experience?
No - Just someone who has watched teams like McLaren and Williams in action since day one of their existence, and seen them lose championships through their rigid application of the principle of equality. Yes - on a couple of occasions, McLaren asked Coulthard to move over, but they were not in Championship deciding situations.
Alonso wanted what he couldn't have, so he threw his rattle out of the pram - if he hadn't behaved like a prat in Hungary, he would now be a 3 time World Champion, because he would have easily won the race from pole, and even if he had come home 2nd, he would still be Champion - in his petulance he didn't miss his own foot, now he's hopping mad................
I hope he gets a competitive drive next year with a suitably inferior team-mate, he may then relax back into Championship winning form.
#36
primer
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 05:47
Originally posted by Suntrek
so I suppose he's not especially keen on freedom of speech.
Ye gods. Where's clampett when you need her?;)
This has nothing to do with freedom of speech (which is usually assured by the state in public spaces), and more to do with freedom from annoyance, distraction and cheap-stuntmanship.
If Ron Dennis feels that some Red Bull sponsored
And in doing so he actually shows that he is very keen in guiding and maintaining the direction of his team. If anyone at Mclaren (other than their legal advisors) is so desperate to read such literature, I am quite sure they are most welcome to do so in virtually any place that is not Mclaren property (And not been seen as endorsing this publication).
#37
hedges
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:18
Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Anyone who believes there was bias needs a visit from the men in white coats.
Obviously you are more than entitled to believe in McLarens equality and to put that opinion forward, but it's a bit childish to deride others for their opinions while adding nothing at all to the thread with this post.
Anyway, what is so unbelievable about Ron having a bias for a kid he has sponsored through his racing life? He clearly had an emotional bias and is it really difficult to believe this rubs off on the team in some way? I don't believe there was a team effort to undermine Alonso (though who could rule out the odd rogue employee? - tongue in cheek) but I think the quote being thrown around the forum from DCs book about his position in relation to Mika gives a pretty good indication that Ron does have his favourites. DC being one of the few drivers ever to be ordered to pull over for his teammate with no real reason for it at all.
I also remember heaps of people saying there was no way Mike would be stupid enough to have Ferrari IP copied at the local printhouse and no doubt some of them were calling for the men in white coats. But he clearly was and after that I wouldn't totally rule out any other seemingly unlikely event.
#38
Rinehart
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:31
I said right from the start that the only stumbling block in Alonso leaving McLaren would be in McLaren successfully negotiating a gagging order. I stand by that.
#39
Group B
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:37
Originally posted by Asperon
So you were part of the Mclaren team and speaking from your inside team experience?
No, he's speaking as someone who has an increasingly clear agenda, to demonstrate that LH is the second coming. It's starting to remind me of HSJ and the "superior breed" affair
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#40
Spunout
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 10:55
Ron Dennis, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso say the drivers were given equal treatment. The way I see it, that is where we stand at the moment. We cannot start from the assumption that they are lying, even if we don´t like the fact that Lewis matched or even beat Fernando. Sorry.
Not so long ago Pat Symonds talked about Alonso´s behaviour after those few races where Fisi was faster. He used the word "irrational". It is hardly surprising FA went ballistic when rookie teammate started beating him on consistent basis. The article strongly suggests this was the case.
If McLaren bias or gagging of Alonso happened, it is up to you guys to prove it.
Not so long ago Pat Symonds talked about Alonso´s behaviour after those few races where Fisi was faster. He used the word "irrational". It is hardly surprising FA went ballistic when rookie teammate started beating him on consistent basis. The article strongly suggests this was the case.
If McLaren bias or gagging of Alonso happened, it is up to you guys to prove it.
#41
Group B
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:01
Personally I'd be a little surprised if Fred were given genuinely inferior equipment or deliberately sabotaged, but I get the impression that he was, at least, made to feel less comfortable and encouraged.
#42
angst
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:05
Originally posted by Group B
Personally I'd be a little surprised if Fred were given genuinely inferior equipment or deliberately sabotaged, but I get the impression that he was, at least, made to feel less comfortable and encouraged.
This makes it sound like he has an almost Reutemann-esque fragility, needing to feel the whole team is working for him in order to give of his best. Do you believe that?
#43
Group B
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:11
Well, that's extremely hard to say; we know bugger all about these character's real personalties at the end of the day. One way or another however I tend to think there was a little more bugging Fred than just Hamilton's natural speed.
#44
inaki
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:12
Originally posted by Group B
Personally I'd be a little surprised if Fred were given genuinely inferior equipment or deliberately sabotaged, but I get the impression that he was, at least, made to feel less comfortable and encouraged.
For me it is a fact. There were several ocasions this year were Alonso dominated every practice and Qs till Q3. When Fernando broke tables and doors in motorhome after Q3 in China and said "I have zero confidence in my team" also after dominating almost every session and being more almost 0.6 seconds behind in the last one without noticeable mistakes in his lap, the only one of the 4 frontrunners out of the pack) or seeing his horrible laptimes in Brazil GP race it is enough for me to know that something was very wrong there. Fernando did not received equal treatment and it was not only psicological.
#45
Big Block 8
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:39
Ok, Prost, Coulthard, Montoya and Alonso have all done some moaning. DC probably has the most legitimate reasons for it, since he was told to pull over twice - but both times Hakkinen had been first shafted by the team to lose a position for DC, so IMO it's up to the team then to give, or not to give the position back. The rest of the favouring apparently was in style of "ooh Ron didn't shake hands with me first but went to talk to Mika instead", so I'm forced to say bollocks. Alonso took his words back and as said, has a reported history of talking crap when having angst due getting beaten by his teammate. And Prost and Montoya don't exactly belong to the "when things go wrong I can also look into the mirror" -club either.
While I think it's healthy to sometimes give a thought or two for another point of view, for me it still looks most likely that McLaren has treated their drivers equally after all, like all three of the most recent participants in the end are telling us now.
While I think it's healthy to sometimes give a thought or two for another point of view, for me it still looks most likely that McLaren has treated their drivers equally after all, like all three of the most recent participants in the end are telling us now.
#46
karlth
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:40
Originally posted by inaki
For me it is a fact. There were several ocasions this year were Alonso dominated every practice and Qs till Q3. When Fernando broke tables and doors in motorhome after Q3 in China and said "I have zero confidence in my team" also after dominating almost every session and being more almost 0.6 seconds behind in the last one without noticeable mistakes in his lap ...
Alonso lost 2-3 tenths under braking in a single corner during his Q3 lap. Technically speaking Alonso seemed to suffer under braking all season, even after McLaren changed his braking system to Hitco.
In 2006 Alonso used to scrub off massive speeds into the corner by extreme steering movement and using the characteristics of the Renault (weight distribution) and Michelin tyres (groove strength) to hustle the car into the corner. This year he has had to change his approach as the Bridgestone tyres simply couldn't handle as much load as he put on the Michelin tyres last season.
Alonso said early in the season that he was totally integrated with the car but I don't think he actually was, especially in braking into slow corners where Hamilton was simply much more comfortable.
#47
prty
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:48
Originally posted by karlth
Alonso lost 2-3 tenths under braking in a single corner during his Q3 lap. Technically speaking Alonso seemed to suffer under braking all season, even after McLaren changed his braking system to Hitco.
In Monza he didn't suffer much.
Anyway, where is the major breaking point in China? In the end of the lap. At the same moment the tyre pressures are at their highest. If they were already too high, it's not a surprise he lost time there, is it?
#48
inaki
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 11:51
Originally posted by karlth
Alonso lost 2-3 tenths under braking in a single corner during his Q3 lap. Technically speaking Alonso seemed to suffer under braking all season, even after McLaren changed his braking system to Hitco.
In 2006 Alonso used to scrub off massive speeds into the corner by extreme steering movement and using the characteristics of the Renault (weight distribution) and Michelin tyres (groove strength) to hustle the car into the corner. This year he has had to change his approach as the Bridgestone tyres simply couldn't handle as much load as he put on the Michelin tyres last season.
Alonso said early in the season that he was totally integrated with the car but I don't think he actually was, especially in braking into slow corners where Hamilton was simply much more comfortable.
He said that his lap was normal, several times.
Alonso was at a loss to explain his lack of speed.
"It was a pretty weird qualifying, because in Q1 and Q2 we were all closely matched, but then in Q3 I was a little lower than I expected," he said. "But both my laps were good and let's hope it's something to do with the fuel load."
However the most frustrated man was Alonso - mired in fourth place and seven tenths of a second slower than his teammate. Rumours soon spread of a post-session tantrum in the McLaren motorhome, and the world champion launched another scathing attack on the team, and Ron Dennis in particular.
Think about what a difference is to be 7 tenths of a second behind
#49
karlth
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 12:29
Originally posted by prty
In Monza he didn't suffer much.
Monza is not a normal track in regards to braking. Alonso just did a better job allround there than Hamilton.
Anyway, where is the major breaking point in China? In the end of the lap. At the same moment the tyre pressures are at their highest. If they were already too high, it's not a surprise he lost time there, is it?
... there was below five-tenths of a second difference between the drivers qualifying, two and a half tenths were fuel difference because Lewis was fuelled lower and most of the time that Lewis made up on Fernando was at two specific braking areas, one in which he picked up nearly two tenths of a second and the rest of the lap took care of the rest. So the difference in lap times was fuel load and specific points on the circuit where Lewis did a very good job on braking. And they are the facts, the absolute facts. Maybe not what Fernando felt when he got out of the car, but I feel sure he understands now.
Ron Dennis at the FIA press conference in Brazil.
#50
Orin
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Posted 05 November 2007 - 12:57
Originally posted by Spunout
Ron Dennis, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso say the drivers were given equal treatment. The way I see it, that is where we stand at the moment. We cannot start from the assumption that they are lying, even if we don´t like the fact that Lewis matched or even beat Fernando. Sorry.
Not so long ago Pat Symonds talked about Alonso´s behaviour after those few races where Fisi was faster. He used the word "irrational". It is hardly surprising FA went ballistic when rookie teammate started beating him on consistent basis. The article strongly suggests this was the case.
If McLaren bias or gagging of Alonso happened, it is up to you guys to prove it.
Should have been the final word in another barking thread from an Alonso fan. Irrational completely sums up Alonso's approach to 2007. I've no doubt he's staying quiet at the moment, not because of an unenforcible gagging order, but simply because he's looking to switch teams and doesn't want to appear a liability.
