J-damper-type system

Can anyone explain what this is apparently, the top teams run this and renault are to introduce this soon.

Could it be this story you mean?

http://forums.autosp...236#post3051236

I know you want to know what the J-damper actually is, but here is something possibly more interesting, dating back from when Renault were being investigated for having possession of mclaren documents. This is a quote from the FIA website:

"2.3. The WMSC has concluded that of the four drawings actually viewed by Renault’s engineers, three were either of no use to Renault or were not in fact used by Renault. The fourth drawing (a drawing of McLaren’s so-called ‘J-damper’) was used by Renault to try to have the system that they thought McLaren was using declared illegal. This failed because Renault had certain fundamental misunderstandings about the operation of the 'J-damper' system. This suggests that Renault’s sight of the 'J-damper' drawing did not give Renault enough information to understand how it worked. In these circumstances, an affect on the Championship cannot be established."

So what i gather is, they have now properly understood how to implement this damper system, and i bet those mclaren drawing might have actually come in handy in the long run.

Originally posted by tahadar
So what i gather is, they have now properly understood how to implement this damper system, and i bet those mclaren drawing might have actually come in handy in the long run. [/B]

and how come this J damper is not moveable and what is that make them legal
and what is that make illegal Renault 2006 mass damper

I guess that they just renamed it into "shock absorber" and made it legal

Originally posted by tahadar
I know you want to know what the J-damper actually is, but here is something possibly more interesting, dating back from when Renault were being investigated for having possession of mclaren documents. This is a quote from the FIA website:

"2.3. The WMSC has concluded that of the four drawings actually viewed by Renault’s engineers, three were either of no use to Renault or were not in fact used by Renault. The fourth drawing (a drawing of McLaren’s so-called ‘J-damper’) was used by Renault to try to have the system that they thought McLaren was using declared illegal. This failed because Renault had certain fundamental misunderstandings about the operation of the 'J-damper' system. This suggests that Renault’s sight of the 'J-damper' drawing did not give Renault enough information to understand how it worked. In these circumstances, an affect on the Championship cannot be established."

So what i gather is, they have now properly understood how to implement this damper system, and i bet those mclaren drawing might have actually come in handy in the long run.

When I read the article, I thought the exact same thing. They had the drawing, but couldn't figure it out. Now, apparently, they have.

In the "If Renault don't give Alonso a winning car...." thread, Tcas says that McLaren's speed last year was the direct result of Alonso and his "six-tenths" so perhaps Alonso (what school did he get his engineering degree from again?) pointed it out to them. So it's time to fire up my Alonso diary again.

----------------

March 5th, Enstone

Dear Diary,

I held a seminar with the suspension engineering team today to make sure they understand that I still want my sharp turn-in. One of them mentioned the J-damper drawing that they had from McHamilton...some engineer brought it over. I think it was one of the guys I fired when he couldn't tell me the flex of the front suspension arms to the exact NM/KG. Anyway, the Renault guys had it all wrong, so I told them how it works and how to improve it. I showed them pictures of it from my Vodaphone mobil. Which reminds me, Ron stopped paying that bill...I guess I should send it to Flav.

After lunch, I had a video conference with Viry-Châtillon on reprofiling the crankshaft. I need to get Flav to give me his plane for a trip there tomorrow, after lunch, because they just don't get how to do it.

I have to remember to bring my safety glasses.

Alonso

Loser!

Originally posted by tahadar
I know you want to know what the J-damper actually is, but here is something possibly more interesting, dating back from when Renault were being investigated for having possession of mclaren documents. This is a quote from the FIA website:

"2.3. The WMSC has concluded that of the four drawings actually viewed by Renault’s engineers, three were either of no use to Renault or were not in fact used by Renault. The fourth drawing (a drawing of McLaren’s so-called ‘J-damper’) was used by Renault to try to have the system that they thought McLaren was using declared illegal. This failed because Renault had certain fundamental misunderstandings about the operation of the 'J-damper' system. This suggests that Renault’s sight of the 'J-damper' drawing did not give Renault enough information to understand how it worked. In these circumstances, an affect on the Championship cannot be established."

So what i gather is, they have now properly understood how to implement this damper system, and i bet those mclaren drawing might have actually come in handy in the long run.

The spygate and the "mini" gates around becomes more and more unbelievable with time. I never bothered to read the WMSC documents but it seems like they have not even tried to hide the fact that they had no intention in finding anything wrong in the Renault case. The above quote is almost Monty Pythonesque.

Originally posted by MarkWRX
March 5th, Enstone

Dear Diary,

I held a seminar with the suspension engineering team today to make sure they understand that I still want my sharp turn-in. One of them mentioned the J-damper drawing that they had from McHamilton...some engineer brought it over. I think it was one of the guys I fired when he couldn't tell me the flex of the front suspension arms to the exact NM/KG. Anyway, the Renault guys had it all wrong, so I told them how it works and how to improve it. I showed them pictures of it from my Vodaphone mobil. Which reminds me, Ron stopped paying that bill...I guess I should send it to Flav.

After lunch, I had a video conference with Viry-Châtillon on reprofiling the crankshaft. I need to get Flav to give me his plane for a trip there tomorrow, after lunch, because they just don't get how to do it.

I have to remember to bring my safety glasses.

Alonso

Keep 'em coming!

Originally posted by StefanV

The spygate and the "mini" gates around becomes more and more unbelievable with time. I never bothered to read the WMSC documents but it seems like they have not even tried to hide the fact that they had no intention in finding anything wrong in the Renault case. The above quote is almost Monty Pythonesque.

It would be funny if, at $100m, it wasn't such an expensive joke.

Originally posted by Buttoneer

It would be funny if, at $100m, it wasn't such an expensive joke.

$100m?

eh... no. It is not funny. But absurd. I can laugh at absurd. If there is nothing better to laugh at. ( )

It was intended to be tongue in cheek so...

So this is what autosport magazine says about the J-damper

- 'J' stands for 'jounce' which is an amalgamation of 'jump' and 'bounce'
- legal version of mass damper
- found in the third, transverse damper on the rear suspension of the cars.
- absorbs excess energy from tyres to make the load through the contact patch more predictible, and hence more stable at the point in time when stability is most crucial
- mass is attached to a threaded shaft within the transverse damper so it is effectively out of sight.

It would be nice if someone made a "Spy gate revisited" article about how McLaren was "sentenced" and Renault aquitted, while also going back in time and look at how FIA has treated similar cases before. FIA made pretty big efforts in finding enough evidence to punish McLaren and I think that the "amnesty" for employees within McLaren that testified against their employer was going way to far, considering the situation. Was it really FIA's job to make their own investigation of a matter that was already investigated by state authorities? Was it really appropriate that they used illegal evidence and came to a verdict long before the all facts in the story was known? If they already knew everything, including the matters that is still investigated by the Italian authorities, why is the case still under investigation?

Is this the J? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jounce. Ideas for crackle and pop dampers anyone?

yeah, J stands for jounce (jump n bounce)

I don't think

J: jump 'n' bounce
J: bump (opposite of rebound)
J: 4th time derivative of displacement

are all one and the same thing. Anyone know what this J-Damper is supposed to be?

McLaren had a few items on their car that looked like they could possibly/maybe/slighty/looked similar to/ come from a Ferrari drawing.
As such they had to take these from the car and stop development.

How come Renault wasn't requested to stop development work on a J damper?

Originally posted by Anomnader
McLaren had a few items on their car that looked like they could possibly/maybe/slighty/looked similar to/ come from a Ferrari drawing.
As such they had to take these from the car and stop development.

How come Renault wasn't requested to stop development work on a J damper?

Because they don`t need ze punishment.

Originally posted by Anomnader
McLaren had a few items on their car that looked like they could possibly/maybe/slighty/looked similar to/ come from a Ferrari drawing.
As such they had to take these from the car and stop development.

How come Renault wasn't requested to stop development work on a J damper?

Be thankful Jean Toad is not in charge of the FIA or McLaren would not be allowed to run dampers at all... LOL

Originally posted by peroa


Because they don`t need ze punishment.

that's what irritates me about renaults coming to form...huge inconsistency from the FIA imo...im surprised their use of the J isnt front-page news so to speak.

Originally posted by Anomnader
McLaren had a few items on their car that looked like they could possibly/maybe/slighty/looked similar to/ come from a Ferrari drawing.
As such they had to take these from the car and stop development.

How come Renault wasn't requested to stop development work on a J damper?

because it has nothing to do with McLaren drawings...
if You remember 2nd spygate original claims comming from Mclaren
later proved to be incorrect,misleading....
but unfortnatelly

and what is so special Renault need to develop system very similar
to the mass dampers

did you read the post up above about the findings of the WMSC

it has everything to do with the mclaren drawings:

heres a list of facts:

1. renault were not punished for possession of Mclaren drawing of the J-damper primarily because the FIA believed the Renault engineers couldn't figure out how the J-damper worked; but at least 8 different engineers at renault discussed the drawing.

2. now, renault have already introduced the J-damper on their cars, and IMO there is no way the mclaren drawings didnt in some way or another allow them to implement the system successfully.

regarding 2) this is the same mentality used by the FIA in the decision to punish mclaren i.e. "they saw drawings for blah therefore they are not allowed to develop these areas in the near future."

simply put, if mclaren were not allowed to use carbon dioxide gas because the ferrari documents contained information about its use; renault should not be allowed to use J-dampers because they received documents that contained information about their use.

Originally posted by tahadar
simply put...

... Mosley doesn't hate anyone at Renault like he admittedly loathes Mr Dennis.

For the sake of your happiness you should forget about the arguement though. There is no way McLaren is going to get "unpunished" as long as Mosley is still in position. No matter how much you debate it. Mosley wont change his stand, because it's something personal between him and Mr Dennis.

Originally posted by Anomnader
did you read the post up above about the findings of the WMSC

I do not know what confuses You...

does it mean when Renault long time ago implemented turbo,pneumatic valves(this led to increase of revs) and V10 no other team is allowed to do so...

and I do not know whether J damper is McLaren invention...is it?
this system is almost the same as mass damper only put into another place...

and what was forbidenn on McLaren car because of 1st spygate...please specify it?

don't You remember that in official verdict it was clearly stated that is not important
whether McLaren actually used Ferrari document or not....

they were mainly discussing weight distribution of Ferrari's car...

McLaren admitted on the hearing in the December 2007 that all the previous statements regarding
Renault McLaren affair brought up in media were not true...

Renault was waiting to get a green light that their J damper has nothing to do with McLaren's...
and I do not believe that McLaren level of expertise is higher then Renault in this...

You are really afraid that Renault is heading into right direction in terms of developing their car...

Originally posted by tahadar
simply put, if mclaren were not allowed to use carbon dioxide gas because the ferrari documents contained information about its use; renault should not be allowed to use J-dampers because they received documents that contained information about their use. [/B]

I did not see anywher that it was forbidenn to use carbon dioxide,and the later what You claim was simply not proved...

Originally posted by papa


I did not see anywher that it was forbidenn to use carbon dioxide,and the later what You claim was simply not proved...

1.

im afraid it's a well-known fact that if mclaren used the carbon dioxide tyre gas then they would probably have failed the 2008 car inspection rather sharpish.

This is a excerpt from mclaren's letter to the FIA:
"We would respectfully suggest, however, that despite our embarrassment that pieces of Ferrari information may have penetrated our organisation beyond our previous belief, the inspection has not reached any conclusion that McLaren used Ferrari confidential information on the 2007 or 2008 car (subject to issues as to the deployment quickshift, fast fill or CO2 as a tyre gas for 2008, in respect of which see below)"

in other words, mclaren had info about the tyre gas, (presumably) wanted to use it, but no longer longer could because of the investigation. whether mclaren planned on introducing this gas with or without ferrari data, we will never know. We do know however, that renault were dumbfounded when they first saw the J-damper drawings (see my post at the start of this thread) and so they could not possibly have been developing the J-damper prior to seeing the mclaren drawing.

2.

i dont understand how the latter claim has not been proved. it has been explicitly stated in the WMSC findings that renault had a drawing of the j-damper. heres the paragraph of interest which is being repeated once again in this thread:

"2.3. The fourth drawing (a drawing of McLaren’s so-called ‘J-damper’) was used by Renault to try to have the system that they thought McLaren was using declared illegal. This failed because Renault had certain fundamental misunderstandings about the operation of the 'J-damper' system. This suggests that Renault’s sight of the 'J-damper' drawing did not give Renault enough information to understand how it worked. In these circumstances, an affect on the Championship cannot be established."

Ok...I will put it this way...


1. obvious difference in two spygate was constant leakage of information in betwen McM and Ferrari employees...(I do not claim FIA imposed fully appropriate sanction,it was too harsh IMO) compared to
Renault McM case...the later happens on a regular basis

2. You forgot that McM had two hearings...On the 1st one they were as well as Renault accussed(proven) of posession of other's team property but left unpunished because there was no proof they benefited
from it...it is very easy to investigate whether Renault developed its own J damper system
on the basis of McM one ...once they got a green light Renault continued their program but this
affair put them behind definitelly...
2nd hearing is the one where McM got punished...and not just for posession

3. amount of documentation comming from Ferrari is substantial compared to few drawings
Renault got in their posession...please do not let me search for a statements but I remember
McLaren apologyzing for misleading information in media...

4. J damper system is not rocket sience,it is not something any other team could not develop....
especially if team is the one created mass dampers...
Having past experience with FIA reinterpreting its own regulation in case of mass dampers,I do believe
they(if at all) used the drawings just to check regularity of the component because McLaren
obviously better understands FIA regulations


In previous posts I mentioned on purpose turbo engine cos in the mid 80s when Renault
developed it,company suffered financial problems causing many Renault engineeres
leaving to other teams....situation similar to last year one...

and if I remember corretcly there are few teams benefited....

4. J damper system is not rocket sience,it is not something any other team could not develop....
especially if team is the one created mass dampers.

Neither is gas in tyres, but McLaren are not allowed to use it.

Originally posted by Anomnader


Neither is gas in tyres, but McLaren are not allowed to use it.

I have never found this tyre situation(where Ferrari has more expertise in tyres then the rest)
quite fair...
if You ask me if they(Ferrari) use this gas then they should speak out about it cos they have
much longer experience in Bridgestone and You never know if they were provided in past
some important info from Bridgestone...

I do not know if this gas is McM's idea or they got a hint from documents,for Renault I do believe
they developed its own system of J dampers...

Gas should be allowed to use if teams think it makes sense...

Originally posted by papa


I do not know if this gas is McM's idea or they got a hint from documents,for Renault I do believe
they developed its own system of J dampers...

Gas should be allowed to use if teams think it makes sense...

We don't know for certain if Macs documents helped or not, but then these posting arn't really about that, it isn't really about the Renault situation but the situation that has being applied to McLaren in that if any developments look like they could have come from Ferrari they have had to suspend development on them, its again a point about FIA apply the rules differently to similar situations, on one hand letting Renault off, but applying as much force as possible onto McLaren

www.gpweek.com has a good feature this week on the J Damper and why Renault are so reluctant to state that they are using it: with it being included in the pictures their employee brought over from McLaren there is every possibility that they will be recalled to the WMSC to explain their actions in using McLaren technology, and they can hardly use the excuse that they don't understand it anymore...

Originally posted by Jackman
www.gpweek.com has a good feature this week on the J Damper and why Renault are so reluctant to state that they are using it: with it being included in the pictures their employee brought over from McLaren there is every possibility that they will be recalled to the WMSC to explain their actions in using McLaren technology, and they can hardly use the excuse that they don't understand it anymore...

I wanderd if that might happen....

$100mil coming up, might just pay for the EGM that the FIA are calling In June ;)

I wonder if the FIA is just too wrapped up in itself at the moment that this matter has passed it by. Perhaps Flav is the News of the World informant?

Of course if things run according to FIA's way, another team, probably McLaren, will need to complain to the FIA about this before they do anything. Or does this constitute 'new information' such as that which transmuted last years McLaren appeal hearing into a new WMSC meeting?

It's certainly new information which is in the public domain, and hasn't even come from emails or text messages obtained through unusual processes, so I don't see why it couldn't be used. But like everything in the racing world, I guess it depends on who wants to do what: if the FIA want to investigate it they can as the information is out there, and if they don't then it can be ignored if no one puts in an official complaint. And I don't see McLaren rushing to complain about it, for some reason.

to be honest im very surprised nobody spoke out against renault on this matter, especially its direct rivals. maybe they thought the whole spy thing had dragged on too long and a j-damper re-investigation would just re-start spygate all over again?

Maybe the FIA are too busy covering their own butt right now. Or uncovering it ;)

Originally posted by tahadar
to be honest im very surprised nobody spoke out against renault on this matter, especially its direct rivals. maybe they thought the whole spy thing had dragged on too long and a j-damper re-investigation would just re-start spygate all over again?

I'm not that surprised that the other teams haven't spoken out: it's a fairly political issue, and as the article notes a lot of teams are now running this technology (from whatever source), so I can see how they wouldn't want to open that particular can of worms.

What I am surprised by is the lack of coverage on this point: I don't think it's unfair to say that gpweek is a fairly small, fairly new site that seems to be fighting well above its weight to bring stories that no one else is writing (no mean feat for a weekly site), but why are they able to get the story and no one else can? I know Joe Saward is not particularly technically minded, so I can almost see why grandprix hasn't run it, but autosport are a bit notable in their missing of the story.

If nothing else, you would think that the political juice from the story would made it a no brainer to run, as it would give the readers something to talk about.

Originally posted by tahadar
yeah, J stands for jounce (jump n bounce)

You sure you haven't confused that with bump n grind ?

Trying to remember the process from Spygate last year.

McLaren employee does bad thing, Ferrari complains, FIA investigates.

Finding said no punishment, so national motorsport federation appeals for Ferrari.

Before the appeal is heard, new information is discovered and, as I recall, the FIA acts of it's own accord and without further complaint to hear the new evidence in a new hearing.

If I am right (and please correct me if I got the events wrong), there should be nothing to stop the FIA picking this up and running with it whether McLaren complains or not.

Originally posted by Jackman
I'm not that surprised that the other teams haven't spoken out: it's a fairly political issue, and as the article notes a lot of teams are now running this technology (from whatever source), so I can see how they wouldn't want to open that particular can of worms.

I guess the only team with any standing to raise the issue is McLaren, with them being the team whose technology has been admittadly taken and now allegedly used. With Renault perhaps not looking to prove much of a threat to McLaren this season, and with McLaren being likely to want to keep spygate "dead and burried", I'm not surprised they haven't raised the issue with the FIA.

Originally posted by Jackman
www.gpweek.com has a good feature this week on the J Damper and why Renault are so reluctant to state that they are using it: with it being included in the pictures their employee brought over from McLaren there is every possibility that they will be recalled to the WMSC to explain their actions in using McLaren technology, and they can hardly use the excuse that they don't understand it anymore...

Can You somehow post the text...I see that many of You alreay giving verdict in 2 sec...

What is that this magazine knows and did not know 6 months ago?

I am really courious?

Originally posted by papa


Can You somehow post the text...I see that many of You alreay giving verdict in 2 sec...

What is that this magazine knows and did not know 6 months ago?

I am really courious?

Dude, just click on the link in Jackman's post. It's free!

Originally posted by tidytracks


Dude, just click on the link in Jackman's post. It's free!

Good, as well. Cheers Jackman

If i were one of the teams that renault have leap frogged, id be very upset that they are doing well throught he use of stolen technology....

Outrageous...

Originally posted by tidytracks


Dude, just click on the link in Jackman's post. It's free!

sorry..I just saw at the glance some empty boxes
and I thought there are some credentials need to be writenn...

I will read it...


but it is interesting to see that these kind of evidence comming after leap in perfromance...

Renault announced long time ago they will introduce "shock absorbers" around Spain GP


somebody is afraid

Originally posted by tidytracks


Dude, just click on the link in Jackman's post. It's free!

One more question?

I read article on page 7...

Is that all??

Yes, that's all. It's not 'evidence' it is an opinion.

Renault had drawings of McLaren's J-Damper system and fundamentally misunderstood its purpose. They said they would not be developing anything in the drawings that they had obtained and yet here they are with a J-Damper.

The article makes the (perfectly valid) suggestion that the matter needs to be looked at to see if Renault did ultimately benefit from the additional knowledge they gained from McLaren data.

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Yes, that's all. It's not 'evidence' it is an opinion.

Renault had drawings of McLaren's J-Damper system and fundamentally misunderstood its purpose. They said they would not be developing anything in the drawings that they had obtained and yet here they are with a J-Damper.

The article makes the (perfectly valid) suggestion that the matter needs to be looked at to see if Renault did ultimately benefit from the additional knowledge they gained from McLaren data.

Precisely... and this only came to light because Fernando admitted they were running a new suspension concept which, according to the article, nobody at Renault will deny is a J-type damper.

If it IS a j-type damper then it opens up a big old can of worms.

Originally posted by tidytracks


Precisely... and this only came to light because Fernando admitted they were running a new suspension concept which, according to the article, nobody at Renault will deny is a J-type damper.

If it IS a j-type damper then it opens up a big old can of worms.

Well yes definatly!! IMO it would be worse than the McLaren Spygate case, as Renault will have actually adopted and used the stolen McLaren technology!!