GP Madrid 1969

Can anybody help me with more results, entry list?

13.4.1969 GP MADRID
40 laps á 2,12 miles
Started 8 Classified 5
Fastest lap: Gethin 1:30.9

1. Lola T142-Chevrolet Keith Holland GB Alan Fraser Racing 40 1:03:29,800 01:32,800
2. BRM P261#2615 Spl-V12 Tony Dean GB 39 01:34,200
3. Lotus 43#R1-Ford Jock Russell GB 38
4. Cooper T86#F1/2/67-Maserati V12 Neil Corner GB Antique Automobiles Ltd. 38
5. Brabham -Ford William Stone GB 36
Ret McLaren M10A-Chevrolet Peter Gethin GB Church Farm 39 1. 01:31,900 Engine
Ret Lotus 59B-Ford Max Mosley GB Gearbox

thanks,
SAT

The only competitor you missed was robs Lamplough ina Lotus 43, which originally had a BRM H16 engine, but now had a 4.7litre Ford. He etired after 1 lap. My information (Motor Sport) is that Mosley retired with a broken injector nozzle, on lap 16.

I Grande Premio de Madrid, Jarama, 1969.04.13, 40 laps

Entry
11, Bill Stone (Jack Smith) Brabham BT21/8 - Lotus LF
12, Tony Dean (A.G. Dean) BRM P61/2615 - P101
14, Neil Corner (Antique Automobiles) Cooper 86B/F1-2-67 - Maserati Tipo 10
15, Graham McRae (Graham McRae) Brabham BT23C - Ford FVA
16, Max Mosley (Len Street (Engineering)) Lotus 59/F2-21 - Ford FVA
51, Mike Hailwood (Paul Hawkins (Racing)) Lola 142 - Chevrolet
52, Keith Holland (Alan Fraser Racing) Lola 142/SL-36 - Chevrolet
53, Peter Gethin (Church Farm Racing Team) McLaren M10A/1 - Chevrolet
54, Rob Lamplough (Robert Lamplough) Lotus 43/R2 - Ford
55, Jock Russell (Jock Russell) Lotus 43/R1 - Ford

McRae -- DNA
Hailwood -- DNA

Grid
Dean 1min 35.8sec // Holland 1min 35.2sec // Gethin 1min 31.9sec
Lamplough 1min 39.0sec // Mosley 1min 38.3sec
Stone // Russell 1min 42.4sec // Corner 1min 41.1sec

Results
1. Holland, 40 laps 1hr 03min 29.8sec
2. Dean, 39 laps
3. Russell, 38 laps
4. Corner, 38 laps
5. Stone, 36 laps
Gethin, 39 laps - engine
Mosley, 14 laps - injector trumpet
Lamplough, 0 laps - engine

Fastest Lap: Gethin 1min 30.9sec

Page 10, Formula 5000 Fact Book: 1969 - 1972 (Europe) by Paul Sheldon & Duncan Rabagliati, Shipley, West Yorkshire: St. Leonards Press, 1989

Roger and Don, thanks.

don,

Are those the racing numbers you posted? I don't know, but Sheldon usually start from #11 when he has no information.

First of all, thank you for the complete results of that race.

It’s maybe strange but Doug Nye classified The 1969 Madrid GP as a 3-litre F1 race in Autosport, February 20 1986. He wrote an summary historical and statistical article about the 3-litre F1 as the Formula which had been in F1 since 1966, had finally run its course after the 1985 Australian GP, having covered 20 hectic seasons from 1966 to 1985. He also added one non-championship race, the Rand GP on December 4, 1965, run under the new regulations. He listed 52 non-championship races, so I suppose he didn’t include the famous Rothmans 5000 race at Brands Hatch on August 28, 1972 (the day of my 9th birthday).

In the non-championship events, 16 different manufacturers - including two Formula 5000 concerns - shared outright victory, 14 shared pole-position, and 15 fastest lap.

What relationship about that topic (the 1969 Madrid GP) ? Doug came now to the subject.

The two non-champonship races to fall to F5000 cars were the obscure little Madrid Grand Prix at Jarama in 1969, which Keith Holland won in his Lola-Chevrolet T42 and the more significant the 1973 Race of Champions at Brands Hatch which fell to Peter Gethin’s Chevron B24 on the last corner.

In Madrid, Tony Dean’s BRM P261 V12 Special qualified second behind Gethin’s McLaren M10A-Chevrolet and finished second behind Holland, thus winning the « F1 class » had there been one. He also set the fastest F1 lap behind the F5000s. In that case, we could arguably add one race win and one more fastest lap to BRM, but that would hardly be fair to the F5000 cars which did the business on the day.

At Brands Hatch in 1973, Hulme’s McLaren was first F1 home in Gethin’s wake, so arguably one more « F1 » win could be added to McLaren’s total. If you would prefer it that way. I do not. The F5000 Chevron fastest lap, incidentally, was not in the race of champion, but was instead recorded by Brian Redman in the Oulton Park Gold Race in 1972.

Ok but now I would like to make some remark.

- First, I doubt about the fastest lap recorded by Brian Redman in the 1972 Gold Cup, see the topic about that race.

- Secondly, I would like to say more about the 1969 F5000 season and the famous 1969 Madrid GP.

For a long time, I admit I knew nothing more about the 1969 GP, not even the actual date. Nevertheless I’ve got books and magazines dealing with that season. For me It was really, really obscure !

I’ve a little Belgian book called Auto Sport 1970 dealing with all the International 1969 races results and surprise nothing about the race at Madrid. It includes first the F1 GP and then three non-championship F1 race : at Brands Hatch (Race of Champions), Silverstone (International Trophy) and Oulton Park (Gold Cup).

After there are results of Indy 500, Tasman Series, World Sportscars championship, CanAm, the other sportscars and tourism races, F2 (European Trophy and non-championship races), the European F5000 championship, European F3 Cup Team and the other F3 races, European Formula V Cup and the other FV races, F Ford (European championship and other races), Formule France, European Mountain Championship and the other International hillclimb or mountain races, European Touring car championship and the other International Touring races, Rally. That’s the first part of the book. In the second part, the green pages, there are all the national results.

This really wonderful books forgets the GP of Madrid. As a F5000 race, the race was not included in the 12 races of the European championship : Oulton Park (April 4), Brands Hatch (April 7), Brands Hatch (May 11), Mallory Park (May 26), Silverstone (June 15), Mondello Park (July 13), Koksijde or Coxyde in French (August 3), that race run in a Belgian Airfield, Zandvoort (August 10), Snetterton (September 1), Hockenheim (September 14), Oulton Park (September 21) and Brands Hatch (September 28).

The F5000 European championship was won by Peter Gethin (2.365 pt) ahead of Trevor Taylor (2.170 pt), Mike Hailwood (2.045 pt), Keith Holland (2.000 pt), Rollinson (2.000 pt), Mike Walker (1.845 pt), Ulf Norinder (1.450 pt), Forbes (1.080 pt), Lamplough (795 pt), Derek Williams (675 pt), Andrea de Adamich (620 pt), Hardwick (575 pt).

David Hobbs won the Mondello Park round but he was not included in the overall result in my book. I don't know why as with 2 other seconds place he would have at least 1200 points.

The points system gave the following points to the 14 first classified : 500, 350, 250, 200, 150, 125, 100, 90, 80, 75, 70, 65, 60 and 55, which was proportionate to 20, 14, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3.6, 3.2, 3, 2.8, 2.6, 2.4 and 2.2.

To come back to Madrid, I recently found the actual date (April 13, 1969), the results and some comments about cars entered a little bit everywhere.

The result : 40 laps = 136 km.
1- Keith Holland Lola T142 Chevrolet F5000
2- Tony Dean BRM P261 2615 V12 Special F1
3- Jock Russel Lotus 43 Special R1 Ford
4- Neil Corner Cooper T86 F1-2-67 Maserati V12 3 L F1 #14

Peter Gethin in his McLaren M10A Chevrolet F5000 made the pole position and I though only 4 finished the race.

The Lotus 43 was originally powered by the over-complex and heavy BRM H-16 and then sold later for independent conversions to F5000.

The BRM P261 or P61 Mk II was a successful team car with 6 GP victories between 1964 and 1966. Tim Parnell and Bernard White ran these V8-BRM into 1967 and one of the car, chassis 2615, was purchased by Tony Dean who finished second at Jarama and also ran the car for Charles Lucas in the 1969 Gold Cup at Oulton Park (Lucas didn’t finish the race).

In page 304 of the book Cooper Cars (always by Doug Nye), I read that historic racer Neil Corner then drove for the Colin Crabbe’s Antique Automobiles Ltd team in the old Cooper T86 F1-2-87 in the combined F1/F5000 Madrid GP at Jarama and finished fourth, the car using a 36-valve, 24-plug engine. The same car was the last ever Cooper seen in a World Championship F1 GP, when Vic Elford agreed to drive the car at Monaco when he started from last place on the grid, very slower than the others. He kept the Cooper Maserati going and finished 7th and last, 6 times lapped by Graham Hill.

Back to the non-championship 3-litre F1 races. I enjoyed myself to make the list of the winners : first the drivers, then the makes and finally engines, the last two category were already listed by Doug Nye but I checked up all his results.

1- The drivers
1- Jack Brabham, 6
2- Emerson Fittipaldi, 4
ex- James Hunt, 4
ex- Jackie Stewart, 4
5- Jacky Ickx, 3
ex- John Surtees, 3
7- Chris Amon, 2
ex- Peter Gethin, 2
ex- Denis Hulme, 2
ex- Niki Lauda, 2
ex- Mike Parkes, 2
ex- Clay Regazzoni, 2
ex- Carlos Reutemann, 2
ex- Keke Rosberg, 2
15- Mario Andretti, 1
ex- Jean-Pierre Beltoise, 1
ex- Jim Clark, 1
ex- Dan Gurney, 1
ex- Graham Hill, 1
ex- Keith Holland, 1
ex- Alan Jones, 1
ex- Bruce McLaren, 1
ex- Tom Pryce, 1
ex- Pedro Rodriguez, 1
ex- Ludovico Scarfiotti, 1
ex- Mike Spence, 1
ex- Gilles Villeneuve, 1

Total, 53 (In the 1967 Syracuse GP, the two Ferrari’s drivers, Mike Parkes and Ludovico Scarfiotti made a perfect dead-heat and both were declared winners)

1- The makes
1- Brabham, 10
2- Ferrari, 9
3- McLaren, 7
4- Lotus, 6
5- BRM, 3
ex- Matra, 3
ex- Williams, 3
8- March, 2
ex- Surtees, 2
10- Chevron, 1
ex- Eagle, 1
ex- Hesketh, 1
ex- Lola, 1
ex- Shadow, 1
ex- Theodore, 1
ex- Tyrrel, 1

Total, 52

1- The engines
1- Cosworth, 29
2- Ferrari, 9
3- Repco, 4
4- BRM, 3
5- Chevrolet, 2
ex- Coventry Climax, 2
7- Alfa Romeo, 1
ex- Matra, 1
ex- Weslake, 1

Total, 52

Roger: Yes, those are the actual race numbers according to Sheldon.

All: Nice to see some attention being devoted to shedding light into places that few -- outside this Forum, that is -- seem to be interested in, or simply dismiss.

I think I might still have the original report from Autosport somewhere in all my "stuff." Paul Sheldon & Duncan Rabagliati concentrated solely on the statistics in the F5000 Fact Books and provided minimal commentary in the Black Books. The logical follow-on mission that this Forum seems to be assuming is filling in the gaps and providing "the rest of the story."

I might agree with the basic statistical facts as narrated here but I think there is a factor that we should be reminded of : the IV Gran Premio de Madrid that took place at Jarama was intended to be a non-championship Formula 1 race, to be held at the same Sunday that the F2 race. Period. There was a very good reason for that, namely that, in order to be able to land a F1 Championship Grand Prix in 1970 in Jarama, the organizers had to have a "test-year" before.

That the track -and organisation- was up to (then) required standards has been proved since 1967 with the F2 races, but only because of the "technically" valid argument that 2 F1 cars had participated in the race were we able to have F1 races in Jarama for a couple of years. God bless Tony Dean and Neil Corner!

What had Jarama (where I spent most of my youth) to attract polemic since the very beginning is beyond my understanding; I think the problems were more related to the politics behind the sporting powers in Spain at the various times. But that´s not the point. Let´s remember that the "infamous" IV Gran Premio de Madrid was not very well planned, did not offer any particular incentives to F1 teams -including starting money- and had to rely on a couple of F5000´s and a ballasted F2 to make up the numbers.


Felix Muelas

Felix,

I don't understand your point about 1969 being a test year for Jarama as the Spanish GP was held there as a championship round in 1968. In 1969 the GRand Prix moved to Barcelona(Montjuich Park). THere had been a test race as you describe in 1967 (November 12), won by Jim Clark in a Lotus 49.

The main reason why Jarama attrated such a poor entry was that te race clashed with two othr major events, the BOAC 500 at Brands Hatch and the Jim Clark Memorial trophy at Hockenheim

Roger

You are absolutely right.

What was I thinking about? Not sure, but what I am sure about is that I simply forgot that there had been a WC Grand Prix at Jarama in 1968...Shame on me!

And by the way, thanks for pointing out the clashing of dates, that makes everything fall into place.

Felix

I found the article on the race in the 18 April 1969 issue of Autosport: "Holland wins in Spain." The author of the article? Someone that you might have heard of lately: Max Mosley....

As soon as I get back to New Jersey, I will scan the photos and send them to Felix so he can post them.

Sat
I lost track of your original post
Although ‘Bill’ is usually a diminutive of William, in the case of Stone it was a nickname. His real name was (and is) Arthur George Stone, and he’s NZ, not GB.

Was it a F5000 race or a Formula libre race ?

Does someone have pictures of this event ?

Thanks

It was F5000. In 1969, because there were so few cars eligible, F1 and F2 cars were allowed to run alongside the F5000s. The F1s had to run ballasted IIRC, but I'm not sure about the F2s.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
It was F5000. In 1969, because there were so few cars eligible, F1 and F2 cars were allowed to run alongside the F5000s. The F1s had to run ballasted IIRC, but I'm not sure about the F2s.

I think it was scheduled as an F1 race but F5000s &F2s were allowed to make up the numbers. BTW : title I have for this event is 'Jarama Grand Prix' Madrid GP was for F2 cars on May 11.

Originally posted by Rob29
I think it was scheduled as an F1 race but F5000s &F2s were allowed to make up the numbers.

That's right.

Originally posted by Rob29
BTW : title I have for this event is 'Jarama Grand Prix' Madrid GP was for F2 cars on May 11.

The F2 race was Gran Premio de Madrid de Fórmula 2, and the F5000 was the Gran Premio de Madrid de F1.

Wasn't the winning car restored as part of a Channel 4 programme featuring Suggs from Madness a couple of years ago ? Can't remember the title of the series.

"The Salvage Squad"??

That's the one Rob

It seems that car is being advertised for sale in the new C&SC.....................will Channel 4 viewers get a refund?




One thing I remember from that programme (apart from the staged 3-car "race" at Mallory after they missed their deadline) was casting new uprights........I had an idea they were common with those on the T70 and therefore common as muck.


Paul M

Originally posted by Bob Amblard
Was it a F5000 race or a Formula libre race ?

Does someone have pictures of this event ?

Thanks

OK... I have two pics taken by my father, but their quality is, definitively, nowhere near the standard that you usually show here.

Anyway...











Manuel Z.

Regardless of their quality, period pictures taken by spectators are always interesting, not necessarily for the cars themselves, but for the atmosphere they convey. I'm sure that many of us fell in love with racing in conditions much like those in Santi's father's photos.

Ah - happy, happy days......