) Hans Etzrodt. He has created a list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949 (incluing over 680 races) and as he doesn't have an own homepage I have reserved a part of my homepage for his use.
You are welcome to take a look!
New list of GP winners 1895-1949
Started by
Leif Snellman
, Feb 01 2001 15:24
148 replies to this topic
#1
Leif Snellman
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Posted 01 February 2001 - 15:24
All of you here know (or should know ) Hans Etzrodt.
He has created a list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949 (incluing over 680 races) and as he doesn't have an own homepage I have reserved a part of my homepage for his use.
You are welcome to take a look!
) Hans Etzrodt. He has created a list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949 (incluing over 680 races) and as he doesn't have an own homepage I have reserved a part of my homepage for his use.
You are welcome to take a look!
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#2
david_martin
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Posted 01 February 2001 - 15:44
Leif (and Hans), once again you excel and do all of us an enormous and invaluable service.
#3
Don Capps
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Posted 01 February 2001 - 17:55
Leif,
Thank you for providing Hans an appropriate place for his work.
Hans,
Outstanding!
Thanks to the both of you!
Thank you for providing Hans an appropriate place for his work.
Hans,
Outstanding!
Thanks to the both of you!
#4
quintin cloud
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Posted 02 February 2001 - 06:56
Congrats on the great webpage , 
the way inwhich the list of races and event info is
great and very Informative , are you guys going to expand the webpage to include
race results of the events and maybe include extra race
events ?
but great work
the way inwhich the list of races and event info is
great and very Informative , are you guys going to expand the webpage to include
race results of the events and maybe include extra race
events ?
but great work
#5
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 03 February 2001 - 16:53
Quintin,Originally posted by quintin cloud
.....are you guys going to expand the webpage to include
race results of the events and maybe include extra race
events ?.....
Additions of the kind you mention will probably take place but because of the amount of work, this will be a slow process.
#6
Don Capps
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Posted 03 February 2001 - 16:57
At some point, the Sheldon Black Books will be replaced by the Etzrodt Virtual Books.;)
#8
Ray Bell
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Posted 05 February 2001 - 12:04
Hans,
Requesting at your request... what are the parameters for determining what events you have listed?
My particular interest is why the Australian GP is not included, but this is not to say other races are as worthy of mention.
Requesting at your request... what are the parameters for determining what events you have listed?
My particular interest is why the Australian GP is not included, but this is not to say other races are as worthy of mention.
#9
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 05 February 2001 - 13:00
Ray,
When I asked you some time ago about the Australian GP races, it was specifically for the reason of a possible inclusion in my list before it went on the Net. As far as I remember, the majority of AGP races were handicap events and therefore they are out, or that was my decision at that time. I described the parameters in my guidelines under 'The Events' ...and there it states that the events listed are the known races where grand prix cars participated up to 1949, no handicap races, etc, etc. Please read it.
Handicap races, as far as I understand, are a compromise to give club members, driving different classes of cars, an equal chance in the race. The intentions are all for good sports but it is not a real race in my way of thinking. I am not an expert on handicap races but am willing to learn. This would probably be also an interesting thread you could start since you surely understand much more about handicap races than I do.
This list is derived of a much more complex type and I started this one about six years ago to speed up things for me. I was messing with it for all those years for my own use as I keep several other lists to find things quickly. One day last year I had sent it to Leif and he liked it. So, now it’s on the Net but probably not yet complete. When not sure, I left certain events off the list to add them later in case somebody would make such a suggestion. So it is quite likely that I will add races I forgot or left off intentionally.
When I asked you some time ago about the Australian GP races, it was specifically for the reason of a possible inclusion in my list before it went on the Net. As far as I remember, the majority of AGP races were handicap events and therefore they are out, or that was my decision at that time. I described the parameters in my guidelines under 'The Events' ...and there it states that the events listed are the known races where grand prix cars participated up to 1949, no handicap races, etc, etc. Please read it.
Handicap races, as far as I understand, are a compromise to give club members, driving different classes of cars, an equal chance in the race. The intentions are all for good sports but it is not a real race in my way of thinking. I am not an expert on handicap races but am willing to learn. This would probably be also an interesting thread you could start since you surely understand much more about handicap races than I do.
This list is derived of a much more complex type and I started this one about six years ago to speed up things for me. I was messing with it for all those years for my own use as I keep several other lists to find things quickly. One day last year I had sent it to Leif and he liked it. So, now it’s on the Net but probably not yet complete. When not sure, I left certain events off the list to add them later in case somebody would make such a suggestion. So it is quite likely that I will add races I forgot or left off intentionally.
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 05 February 2001 - 13:23
Yes, the AGP was a handicap for the years 1931 through 1948.
1928 - 30 saw scratch races, and in fact the 1931 race saw the major prize awarded to the fastest car to cover the distance.
Just nine races, then, were purely handicaps, with the other vagary that the 1950 race was run as a handicap but with the fastest car again winning the race as in 1931.
1949 was a scratch race from a massed start, with an inbuilt handicap giving a subsidiary prize (to a Bugatti, actually!), while 1951 was different again, a scratch race with the cars setting off at handicap intervals, and a lesser prize for the handicap winner again.
Given that the race has such an enduring history, and that it ultimately became a round of the WDC, I would have thought that inclusion would have been warranted.
However, I also see your point about handicaps - where they are applied.
Regarding the reason for the handicaps, principally this was because of the lack of sufficient really fast cars to make up a serious field. Hence it was effectively increasing the number of 'fast' cars by giving credit time to the slower ones.
There became a serious component then of the competitors trying to beat their handicap. In other words, they would have a goal set and be trying to achieve it. They would be going all out with stopwatches in the pits determining how they were going rather than comparitive position on the circuit.
It was under these circumstances that the incredible Tomlinson won at Lobethal, while the P3 Alfa set fastest time. The driver won the event.
On the other hand, at Bathurst the previous year the race had gone to the fastest car, it having beaten its handicap too, Peter Whitehead in the ERA.
1928 - 30 saw scratch races, and in fact the 1931 race saw the major prize awarded to the fastest car to cover the distance.
Just nine races, then, were purely handicaps, with the other vagary that the 1950 race was run as a handicap but with the fastest car again winning the race as in 1931.
1949 was a scratch race from a massed start, with an inbuilt handicap giving a subsidiary prize (to a Bugatti, actually!), while 1951 was different again, a scratch race with the cars setting off at handicap intervals, and a lesser prize for the handicap winner again.
Given that the race has such an enduring history, and that it ultimately became a round of the WDC, I would have thought that inclusion would have been warranted.
However, I also see your point about handicaps - where they are applied.
Regarding the reason for the handicaps, principally this was because of the lack of sufficient really fast cars to make up a serious field. Hence it was effectively increasing the number of 'fast' cars by giving credit time to the slower ones.
There became a serious component then of the competitors trying to beat their handicap. In other words, they would have a goal set and be trying to achieve it. They would be going all out with stopwatches in the pits determining how they were going rather than comparitive position on the circuit.
It was under these circumstances that the incredible Tomlinson won at Lobethal, while the P3 Alfa set fastest time. The driver won the event.
On the other hand, at Bathurst the previous year the race had gone to the fastest car, it having beaten its handicap too, Peter Whitehead in the ERA.
#11
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 09:36
Ray,Originally posted by Ray Bell
...1928 - 30 saw scratch races, and in fact the 1931 race saw the major prize awarded to the fastest car to cover the distance...
...1949 was a scratch race from a massed start, with an inbuilt handicap giving a subsidiary prize (to a Bugatti, actually!)...
Since you wrote that the following were no handicap events, I am considering the 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1949 AGP for possible inclusion in my list. But I need to know also which and how many GP cars raced in each event. Maybe you can tell me again in which thread I can find that information so I can put a list together.
I am now trying to find for each event the basics:
[*]Date of race
[*]Official Name of Event
[*]Name of Circuit
[*]First and last name of winner
[*]Name and type of winning car
Next, I would need for each of the four events the following:
[*]Length of one lap
[*]Number of laps
[*]Distance
[*]Winner's time
[*]Winner's speed
[*]No. Cars at the Start
[*]No. Cars at the Finish
#12
Barry Lake
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 10:21
Hans
Congratulations on the publication of your list of GP winners.
As I told you once before, I went through this exercise between 20 and 30 years ago - so I have a good idea of how much you have put into this. There was far less material available then - certainly to me. Perhaps the frustration of that had a lot to do with my ever-increasing obsession with buying motoring and motor sport books.
My major purpose at that time was to find the top drivers of each year. To this end, I chose the races that had the highest level of drivers, teams and cars. My theory being that to be a champion, one had to beat the best opposition available, not just win impressive titles against thin opposition.
It is interesting to note, on a quick look through your "My Driver of the Year" entries, that none leap out at me as being very different from my selections.
When I find time, I will dig out my lists and try to find some that are different, which might make for some interesting discussion.
Once again, however, congratulations. You must be feeling very pleased with your efforts.
Congratulations on the publication of your list of GP winners.
As I told you once before, I went through this exercise between 20 and 30 years ago - so I have a good idea of how much you have put into this. There was far less material available then - certainly to me. Perhaps the frustration of that had a lot to do with my ever-increasing obsession with buying motoring and motor sport books.
My major purpose at that time was to find the top drivers of each year. To this end, I chose the races that had the highest level of drivers, teams and cars. My theory being that to be a champion, one had to beat the best opposition available, not just win impressive titles against thin opposition.
It is interesting to note, on a quick look through your "My Driver of the Year" entries, that none leap out at me as being very different from my selections.
When I find time, I will dig out my lists and try to find some that are different, which might make for some interesting discussion.
Once again, however, congratulations. You must be feeling very pleased with your efforts.
#13
Barry Lake
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 10:58
Hans
I note that you have M Mayade listed as "Emile Mayade".
Have you had confirmation of this name since it was discussed on The Nostalgia Forum some months ago?
I note that you have M Mayade listed as "Emile Mayade".
Have you had confirmation of this name since it was discussed on The Nostalgia Forum some months ago?
#14
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 12:07
Hans, the results with all finishers and retirements are posted in the 'Australian GP in former times' thread. I'll check to see what you still need and post that data here in a concise form.
Thank you, old friend, for your consideration of my request.
Thank you, old friend, for your consideration of my request.
#15
quintin cloud
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 12:07
Hans
Would this also apply to some South African results aswell ,
the races I'm taking about is the Grosvenor GP's of '38 , '39 and '39 South African GP ?
Would this also apply to some South African results aswell ,
the races I'm taking about is the Grosvenor GP's of '38 , '39 and '39 South African GP ?
#16
David McKinney
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 19:31
None of the Australian and South African races mentioned was run to a current GP formula. The early Australian GPs had a few 1500cc Bugattis, some of which complied with an earlier GP formula. Haven’t checked the 1949 field. There were ex-GP cars in the 1938 South African races, though the European entries all drove 1500cc voiturettes, and the 1939 races were restricted to voiturettes.
You surely can't want to list every race which happened to have a GP car in the field? Only races with "Grand Prix" in its titles? Races such as the Eifelrennen, Avusrennen, International Trophy (Silverstone) etc. were far more important in any one year than some obscure event which happpened to be called the Outer Mongolian Grand Prix or whatever.
You surely can't want to list every race which happened to have a GP car in the field? Only races with "Grand Prix" in its titles? Races such as the Eifelrennen, Avusrennen, International Trophy (Silverstone) etc. were far more important in any one year than some obscure event which happpened to be called the Outer Mongolian Grand Prix or whatever.
#17
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 21:50
Originally posted by Barry Lake
...Perhaps the frustration of that had a lot to do with my ever-increasing obsession with buying motoring and motor sport books... Barry, that is the same reason, why I bought so many books and copied magazines over the last 20 years.
...You must be feeling very pleased with your efforts.
I feel content that the list has reached this level and I am very grateful to Leif who was kind enough to spend so many days on this project. To have it on the Net was probably the only way to get feedback from a worldwide audience in the hope to make the list more complete and accurate.
you have M Mayade listed as "Emile Mayade".
Have you had confirmation of this name since it was discussed on The Nostalgia Forum some months ago?
Could you please tell me where at TNF "Mayade" had been discussed? This could be one of several mistakes still lingering in the list.
#18
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 22:23
Quintin,Originally posted by quintin cloud
...the Grosvenor GP's of '38 , '39 and '39 South African GP...
The 1939 S.A. GP and 1939 Grosvenor GP were for Voiturettes and therefore cannot be included in my list. As David McKinney points out, the same formula was applied for 1938. Monkhouse's book says the 1938 GP was a handicap race, won by Meyer's Riley. So, this is not really what we are looking for but thanks anyway.
#19
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 22:33
The early AGPs were all to a 2-litre limit. This was lifted so it became Formula Libre from 1936 until 1964, with the threat of F1 in 1952. Every race mentioned included GP Bugattis...
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#20
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 06 February 2001 - 23:28
Thank you, David.Originally posted by David McKinney
None of the Australian and South African races mentioned was run to a current GP formula. The early Australian GPs had a few 1500cc Bugattis, some of which complied with an earlier GP formula. Haven’t checked the 1949 field. There were ex-GP cars in the 1938 South African races, though the European entries all drove 1500cc voiturettes, and the 1939 races were restricted to voiturettes...
That would just leave the 1949 Australian GP, run to F. Libre, for possible inclusion in my list. All previous events in Australia cannot be included, which keeps events for voiturettes out as well as handicap races.[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 02-06-2001]
#21
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 00:08
What an incredible turnaround!
The event organised by the least experienced group, featuring the most obtuse collection of cars, on the least likely of circuits found so late that they thought the event might never be held!
The race that nobody wanted to be in, the race that couldn't succeed because it was too far away and there was a petrol shortage too, the race that, even on the day, was troubled by crowd encroachment on the circuit, with cars peppered by stones because the airfield surface was made that way... the only AGP with turns going one way...
Okay, Hans, it's all yours...
September 18, 1949
Leyburn airfield (disused military airfield used for undercover flights to Phillipines, Borneo etc) circuit.
Circuit length: 4.3 miles - 6.9kms
Race length: 35 laps - 150.5 miles
1. John Crouch (Delahaye 135 stripped) 1h 49:25.2 (82.528mph)
2. Ray 'Laddie' Gordon (MG TC s/c stripped) 1h 54:12.2 (79.07mph)
3. Arthur Rizzo (Riley 1.5 Special) 1h 56:56.8
4. Peter Critchley (MG TB 'Najar' Special) 1h 59:40
5. Allan Larsen (Regal-Cadillac Special) 1h 59:53
6. Curley Brydon (MG TC Special) 2h 00:08
7. Irwin 'Bud' Luke (Bugatti T37) 2h 07:07.4
8. Theo Trevethan (Ford V8 Special) 2h 11:14.4
9. H McGuire (MG TC) 2h 16:53
10. Col Robinson (MG TC) 2h 20:59.6
11. Jack Wright (Vauxhall Ford V8 Special) 2h 24:36.8
Fastest Lap: Crouch and Frank Kleing, 2:52 (90mph)
Retirements:
George Pearse (MG TB) piston, lap 2
Ross Gray (GK Ford V8 Special) ignition, lap 4
Arthur Bowes (Hudson Speedcar) oil pump, lap 5
Dick Cobden (MG TC Special) clutch, lap 6
Rex Law (Buick Century Special) condensor, lap 8
Keith Saunders (Cadillac Special) con-rod, lap 8
Doug McDonald (Bugatti Dodge) fuel line, lap 9
Keith Thallon (Jaguar SS100) big end, lap 10
Les Taylor (MG TC) siezed engine, lap 10
Charlie Whatmore (Studebaker Speedcar) fuel, lap 10
Snow Sefton (Strathpine Special Ford V8) overheating, lap 11
Ken Tubman (MG K3) fuel, lap 12
Garry Coglan (MG TC s/c) piston, lap 16
John Nind (MG TB Special) con-rod, lap 20
Frank Kleinig (Hudson 8 Special) overheating, lap 21
Dick Bland (G. Reed Ford V8 Special) tyres, lap 26
Vic Johnson (MG TC) big end, lap 27
Non-starters:
John Pike (Tritton Wolseley 25hp Special) practised, decided not to race because of damage being done to new car by stones.
L. Johnson (Lea Francis) arrived without car, just brought booze.
Other highlights:
Despite the forebodings of gloom, from the wee hours of the morning, the traffic to the area was more intense than has ever been seen, before or since, with no fewer than 30,000 people gathering to watch the race, standing in the sun, using hessian temporary toilets that blew over in the wind, supplies to feed and water them being trucked in on a fleet of 20 trucks from Warwick.
The race was the only AGP appearance of the oldest major component ever to compete in the AGP, the chassis of the Regal Underslung-Cadillac driven by Larsen dating back to 1911.
There was much dissension about the race being held so far from Victoria and as a scratch event, despite the fact that the Victorians had the fastest cars. None came. Hence only a couple of cars that competed in this race were also in the following AGP just three months later... or was it one?
__________________________________________________________
Is that all you want, Hans?
What I do know is that the key people in the Historic Racing Car Club of Queensland will be absolutely delighted about this. They have hinged the growth of their movement on this race for the past six years or so, with two of their number being sons of the men who put the race together.
It stands, alongside the 1951 race in Narrogin, WA, as the most diverse list of cars to contest the race.
And the inclusion of that sole Bugatti having a bearing on the inclusion (from what I gather) will delight the daughter of the owner, Ida Luke, who treasures her father's photograph collection... he was a photographer and she has preserved all his work.
The event organised by the least experienced group, featuring the most obtuse collection of cars, on the least likely of circuits found so late that they thought the event might never be held!
The race that nobody wanted to be in, the race that couldn't succeed because it was too far away and there was a petrol shortage too, the race that, even on the day, was troubled by crowd encroachment on the circuit, with cars peppered by stones because the airfield surface was made that way... the only AGP with turns going one way...
Okay, Hans, it's all yours...
September 18, 1949
Leyburn airfield (disused military airfield used for undercover flights to Phillipines, Borneo etc) circuit.
Circuit length: 4.3 miles - 6.9kms
Race length: 35 laps - 150.5 miles
1. John Crouch (Delahaye 135 stripped) 1h 49:25.2 (82.528mph)
2. Ray 'Laddie' Gordon (MG TC s/c stripped) 1h 54:12.2 (79.07mph)
3. Arthur Rizzo (Riley 1.5 Special) 1h 56:56.8
4. Peter Critchley (MG TB 'Najar' Special) 1h 59:40
5. Allan Larsen (Regal-Cadillac Special) 1h 59:53
6. Curley Brydon (MG TC Special) 2h 00:08
7. Irwin 'Bud' Luke (Bugatti T37) 2h 07:07.4
8. Theo Trevethan (Ford V8 Special) 2h 11:14.4
9. H McGuire (MG TC) 2h 16:53
10. Col Robinson (MG TC) 2h 20:59.6
11. Jack Wright (Vauxhall Ford V8 Special) 2h 24:36.8
Fastest Lap: Crouch and Frank Kleing, 2:52 (90mph)
Retirements:
George Pearse (MG TB) piston, lap 2
Ross Gray (GK Ford V8 Special) ignition, lap 4
Arthur Bowes (Hudson Speedcar) oil pump, lap 5
Dick Cobden (MG TC Special) clutch, lap 6
Rex Law (Buick Century Special) condensor, lap 8
Keith Saunders (Cadillac Special) con-rod, lap 8
Doug McDonald (Bugatti Dodge) fuel line, lap 9
Keith Thallon (Jaguar SS100) big end, lap 10
Les Taylor (MG TC) siezed engine, lap 10
Charlie Whatmore (Studebaker Speedcar) fuel, lap 10
Snow Sefton (Strathpine Special Ford V8) overheating, lap 11
Ken Tubman (MG K3) fuel, lap 12
Garry Coglan (MG TC s/c) piston, lap 16
John Nind (MG TB Special) con-rod, lap 20
Frank Kleinig (Hudson 8 Special) overheating, lap 21
Dick Bland (G. Reed Ford V8 Special) tyres, lap 26
Vic Johnson (MG TC) big end, lap 27
Non-starters:
John Pike (Tritton Wolseley 25hp Special) practised, decided not to race because of damage being done to new car by stones.
L. Johnson (Lea Francis) arrived without car, just brought booze.
Other highlights:
Despite the forebodings of gloom, from the wee hours of the morning, the traffic to the area was more intense than has ever been seen, before or since, with no fewer than 30,000 people gathering to watch the race, standing in the sun, using hessian temporary toilets that blew over in the wind, supplies to feed and water them being trucked in on a fleet of 20 trucks from Warwick.
The race was the only AGP appearance of the oldest major component ever to compete in the AGP, the chassis of the Regal Underslung-Cadillac driven by Larsen dating back to 1911.
There was much dissension about the race being held so far from Victoria and as a scratch event, despite the fact that the Victorians had the fastest cars. None came. Hence only a couple of cars that competed in this race were also in the following AGP just three months later... or was it one?
__________________________________________________________
Is that all you want, Hans?
What I do know is that the key people in the Historic Racing Car Club of Queensland will be absolutely delighted about this. They have hinged the growth of their movement on this race for the past six years or so, with two of their number being sons of the men who put the race together.
It stands, alongside the 1951 race in Narrogin, WA, as the most diverse list of cars to contest the race.
And the inclusion of that sole Bugatti having a bearing on the inclusion (from what I gather) will delight the daughter of the owner, Ida Luke, who treasures her father's photograph collection... he was a photographer and she has preserved all his work.
#22
Barry Lake
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 00:17
Hans
The discussion about Mayade's first name was in a thread called "Research".
You can do a search for it ("search" in the top right hand corner of this screen) under Mayade.
Barry Lake
The discussion about Mayade's first name was in a thread called "Research".
You can do a search for it ("search" in the top right hand corner of this screen) under Mayade.
Barry Lake
#23
dbw
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 00:28
just a quick question....with all the rumors about the australian penchant for "unique" engine swaps, i wonder just how many upsidedown bugs still had their original engines by the late 40's?[i assume a few of these "swaps" still remain extant?]
#24
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 00:37
Lemme see now... what have we got?
Built on the chassis of the Bugatti T39 that won the AGP for Carl Junker in 1931, this car went through various transformations along the way - as owned by Jack Day - and was known as the Day Special.
When bought by Jack Murray in the late forties, it got a real pretty-up, chrome, red paint, polish, and it has been rebuilt with all those things.
It sports a Ford V8 engine with Edelbrock heads (nice and shiny) and a pre-selector Wilson gearbox.
I love this photo for the background, the 'control tower', the people and their clothes and their accoutrements, the cars, the K3 that inevitably never made it to the grid on the trailer, and its tow car, the Jeep with the hood up...
Bathurst, the year was 1949 (I think)...
Built on the chassis of the Bugatti T39 that won the AGP for Carl Junker in 1931, this car went through various transformations along the way - as owned by Jack Day - and was known as the Day Special.
When bought by Jack Murray in the late forties, it got a real pretty-up, chrome, red paint, polish, and it has been rebuilt with all those things.
It sports a Ford V8 engine with Edelbrock heads (nice and shiny) and a pre-selector Wilson gearbox.
I love this photo for the background, the 'control tower', the people and their clothes and their accoutrements, the cars, the K3 that inevitably never made it to the grid on the trailer, and its tow car, the Jeep with the hood up...
Bathurst, the year was 1949 (I think)...
#25
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 02:43
Barry,Originally posted by Barry Lake
...Mayade's first name was in a thread called "Research"...
Mayade appears in my 'Records of Race Winners' list only in 1895 and 1896 where he drove in three races. He won Paris-Mantes-Paris and Pais-Marseille-Paris with a Panhard in 1896. In the references below, only his last name appears except in the first two references and Norbye did not even mention him in his detailed Panhard story. I am still looking to have Emile Mayade's first name backed up by a second source. Anybody? Felix? Quintin? David? (in no particular order)
Erwin Tragatsch, Das Große Rennfahrerbuch: Emile Mayade
Charles Jarrott, Ten years of Motors and Motor Racing: M. Mayade
Gerald Rose, A Record of MOTOR RACING: Mayade
Kirchberg, Das Beste aus “Der Motorwagen” pg.95: Mayade
Henry Serrano Villard, The Great Road Races: Mayade
Raymond Flower, Motor Sports: Mavade (meant to be Mayade)
Georges Monkhouse, GRAND PRIX RACING Facts and Figures: Mayade
Doug Nye, The Classic Single Seaters: Mayade
Doug Nye, Motor Racing: Mayade
Peter Higham, The Guinness Guide to International MOTOR RACING: Mayade
Ivan Rendall, The Checkered Flag, Mayade
Anthony Pritchard, A Century of GRAND PRIX Motor Racing: Mayade
Jan P. Norbye in AUTOMOBILE QUARTERLY, No.6, Vol.2: His name does not appear in the Panhard story
#26
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 03:02
Ray,Originally posted by Ray Bell
...September 18, 1949
Leyburn airfield (disused military airfield used for undercover flights to Phillipines, Borneo etc) circuit.
Circuit length: 4.3 miles - 6.9kms
Race length: 35 laps - 150.5 miles
1. John Crouch (Delahaye 135 stripped) 1h 49:25.2 (82.528mph)...
Thanks for your great effort. I can't see why we should not seriously consider to include the 1949 AGP. Can you please tell me, what exactly was the title of this race in 1949? Did they really call it the 14th Australian Grand Prix?
#27
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 03:37
I'm not sure, but I think it was simply the 1949 Australian Grand Prix.
If that happens to be wrong, I'll advise later. I think Barry might have a programme...
If that happens to be wrong, I'll advise later. I think Barry might have a programme...
#28
Marcor
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 05:15
In Jacques Rousseau, L'histoire mondiale de l'automobile, 1958 Hachette: it's also disappointingly only Mayade, without christian name(s)...Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Erwin Tragatsch, Das Große Rennfahrerbuch: Emile Mayade
Charles Jarrott, Ten years of Motors and Motor Racing: M. Mayade
Gerald Rose, A Record of MOTOR RACING: Mayade
Kirchberg, Das Beste aus “Der Motorwagen” pg.95: Mayade
Henry Serrano Villard, The Great Road Races: Mayade
Raymond Flower, Motor Sports: Mavade (meant to be Mayade)
Georges Monkhouse, GRAND PRIX RACING Facts and Figures: Mayade
Doug Nye, The Classic Single Seaters: Mayade
Doug Nye, Motor Racing: Mayade
Peter Higham, The Guinness Guide to International MOTOR RACING: Mayade
Ivan Rendall, The Checkered Flag, Mayade
Anthony Pritchard, A Century of GRAND PRIX Motor Racing: Mayade
Jan P. Norbye in AUTOMOBILE QUARTERLY, No.6, Vol.2: His name does not appear in the Panhard story
#29
David McKinney
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 05:55
Without wishing to pour cold water on the 1949 AGP's claim to inclusion, I don't see any ex-GP cars on the list. Delahaye 135s and Bugatti T37s did of course compete in European GPs in their day, but both were sportscars: the Bug was a four-cylinder version of the eight-cylinder T39, which was the contemporary GP car.
#30
dbw
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 07:07
i should know..but why was a t37[4cyl,1500cc] run as a voiturette class and a t 39[8cyl,1500cc] run as a gp cars...trust me, except for the engine itself, the chassis,axles,brakes wheels gearbox,radiator,even the body panels are interchangable..actually a blown 37 [in the right hands] is faster than a 2000 8 cyl twin carb car!
bugatti would offer a full blown 35b [with roller crank,hollow axle,all the mods fitted as a street car....and openly advertised the t37 as a "GP" model....
was this somehow controlled by ruling bodies?does anyone know???
what about an ex-GP chassis[of untraced origin] with a holden in it??FL?...non homologated mutt?what?
bugatti would offer a full blown 35b [with roller crank,hollow axle,all the mods fitted as a street car....and openly advertised the t37 as a "GP" model....
was this somehow controlled by ruling bodies?does anyone know???
what about an ex-GP chassis[of untraced origin] with a holden in it??FL?...non homologated mutt?what?
#31
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 February 2001 - 07:43
As far as racing in Australia went, dbw, there was basically only Formula Libre, with occasional division racing for under and over 1500cc and the like. Some 'Stock Car' races were held, with fields of production cars of all different types, and as far as I can tell there was no further division in this category until well after the war, when Sports Car and Touring Car events began to be held separately.
So for your Bugatti Holden query, I don't know. There were two, I think, John Cummins' one being the car fitted with the Bellamy front suspension.
By the way, a friend of mine has a few spare front axle blanks... don't know if they are hollow, I don't think so... he had seven made a couple of decades ago when he needed one, and a couple of others needed them, but now he wants to quit the balance....
So for your Bugatti Holden query, I don't know. There were two, I think, John Cummins' one being the car fitted with the Bellamy front suspension.
By the way, a friend of mine has a few spare front axle blanks... don't know if they are hollow, I don't think so... he had seven made a couple of decades ago when he needed one, and a couple of others needed them, but now he wants to quit the balance....
#32
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 08 February 2001 - 01:49
After checking over the cars on the starting grid for the 1949 Australian GP, I found that only two cars, the Bugatti and the Delahaye, could possibly be considered a grand prix car. Obviously, two cars are not worth a race to talk about but let’s look at the cars in question.
[*]The Bugatti T37 racing/sports car was built between 1925 and 1931. As such an old car, the T37 did not conform to the formula in use during 1949 and can therefore not be considered an acceptable GP car entry for inclusion in the list.
[*]The Delahaye 135, built in 1946 to 1947, was a stripped down 6-cylinder sports car. I checked the European Scene during the 1949 season and found four different drivers who appeared with similar type Delahaye 135 cars, namely:
After a brief investigation I came to my decision. The 1949 Australian GP is not acceptable for inclusion in the list because none of the cars on the starting grid represented grand prix cars of the time.
[*]The Bugatti T37 racing/sports car was built between 1925 and 1931. As such an old car, the T37 did not conform to the formula in use during 1949 and can therefore not be considered an acceptable GP car entry for inclusion in the list.
[*]The Delahaye 135, built in 1946 to 1947, was a stripped down 6-cylinder sports car. I checked the European Scene during the 1949 season and found four different drivers who appeared with similar type Delahaye 135 cars, namely:
- "Raph" did three races, his best a 5th and last place at Frontiers GP out of an 8-car field, 2 laps behind the leader.
- Eugene Chaboud drove in three events, his best was a 6th place in the GP de France at Reims.
- Charles Pozzi, came 4th at the Coupe du Salon, beating Jean Behra.
- Guy Jason-Henry drove a 135 at the British Empire Trophy and came 12th, 4 laps behind the winner.
After a brief investigation I came to my decision. The 1949 Australian GP is not acceptable for inclusion in the list because none of the cars on the starting grid represented grand prix cars of the time.
#33
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 February 2001 - 02:24
Okay, Hans... your rules are too strict, methinks, but they are your rules.
Shame, though...
Shame, though...
#34
dbw
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Posted 08 February 2001 - 04:53
it's hard for me to believe every event you [hans] list for 1949 didn't include some[or perhaps a lot] of pre-war backmarkers on the grid...how many "grand prix cars of the times" do you need on the grid to make "the list"???let's face it,in 1949,even a gp bug was a car worth running...and how late were some old masers,alfas and gp delages competitive in the right hands?worth thinking about.....
#35
Barry Lake
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Posted 08 February 2001 - 07:30
Hans
Don't let these partisan Aussies pressure you.
While the 1949 Australian Grand Prix was a serious race - and a very important one in the overall scheme of things in Australia, it wasn't a GP in the sense you are talking about.
It had no bearing on and little relevance to serious GP racing in Europe.
Not one of the drivers had raced outside of Australia (although a couple later went to New Zealand and Dick Cobden also had a dabble in British racing for a few weeks in 1955). The closest link I can make with European GP racing is that Cobden, in 1953-1954 had some great dices at Mount Druitt with Jack Brabham, who did go on to become a fully-fledged GP driver.
None of which is meant to belittle the efforts of those concerned. They did the best they could with the machinery and the circuits available to them. In some ways they might have been bolder and braver than many of their European counterparts. But Australia was a country of very small population, a long way from the centre of world racing, not particularly well off economically, and consequently was a long way behind world motor racing standards.
Don't let these partisan Aussies pressure you.
While the 1949 Australian Grand Prix was a serious race - and a very important one in the overall scheme of things in Australia, it wasn't a GP in the sense you are talking about.
It had no bearing on and little relevance to serious GP racing in Europe.
Not one of the drivers had raced outside of Australia (although a couple later went to New Zealand and Dick Cobden also had a dabble in British racing for a few weeks in 1955). The closest link I can make with European GP racing is that Cobden, in 1953-1954 had some great dices at Mount Druitt with Jack Brabham, who did go on to become a fully-fledged GP driver.
None of which is meant to belittle the efforts of those concerned. They did the best they could with the machinery and the circuits available to them. In some ways they might have been bolder and braver than many of their European counterparts. But Australia was a country of very small population, a long way from the centre of world racing, not particularly well off economically, and consequently was a long way behind world motor racing standards.
#36
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 08 February 2001 - 09:39
Quite honestly, I feel somewhat disappointed that the 1949 Australian GP did not make it into my list. Disappointed maybe because I really was looking forward to add this race and also disappointed for spending several hours researching this particular event and then ending up with a bag of hot air. So my dear partisan Aussies, I am also disappointed that the race, which I had already added onto my list of 1949 races, had to be voided again by clicking the delete button.
But there is consolation. If you look inside Peter Higham’s Guinness Guide to International MOTOR RACING, you will find the 1949 AGP and under the name John Crouch it reads that he won the 1949 Australian GP. But then his book mixes up races for sports cars and GP cars, which I find very misleading. Especially the novices might get confused here. As per the author, he decided on a rather loose definition for races in the pre-1950 Grand Prix section. And that in an otherwise first class reference book.
Do any of you understand why I don't include the 1st German GP from 1926 in my list? Caracciola was the winner. He was one of my heroes. But this was an easier decision to make than the AGP in 1949.
But there is consolation. If you look inside Peter Higham’s Guinness Guide to International MOTOR RACING, you will find the 1949 AGP and under the name John Crouch it reads that he won the 1949 Australian GP. But then his book mixes up races for sports cars and GP cars, which I find very misleading. Especially the novices might get confused here. As per the author, he decided on a rather loose definition for races in the pre-1950 Grand Prix section. And that in an otherwise first class reference book.
Do any of you understand why I don't include the 1st German GP from 1926 in my list? Caracciola was the winner. He was one of my heroes. But this was an easier decision to make than the AGP in 1949.
#37
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 February 2001 - 12:19
Simple, it was a Sports Car race, as was the French GP 1928, 1936, 1937 and 1949... at least according to my "out of date and irrelevant" Monkhouse book.
As for pressuring, I don't think I'm doing that.. I made the request, got the parameters, showed the prospects and accepted the verdict.
Mind you, some of the cars were as 'in the spirit' of F1 as you could get... Rex Law's Buick was 4.2 litres and a single seater, Snow Sefton's 4.1 litres and too cramped for two, had two gearboxes. Charlie Whatmore's Studebaker, too, but a little too much like a speedcar (it had had 14" added to the wheelbase to get the straight 8 in for this race).
Barry's point about being away from the 'centre of world motor racing' is one I don't accept... wherever it is, it is what it is. It's the best that there is there, if you know what I mean... It's even possible that you should consider that there were two P3 Alfas that could have entered but didn't choose to.
But que sera sera... and keep up the good work, Hans.
As for pressuring, I don't think I'm doing that.. I made the request, got the parameters, showed the prospects and accepted the verdict.
Mind you, some of the cars were as 'in the spirit' of F1 as you could get... Rex Law's Buick was 4.2 litres and a single seater, Snow Sefton's 4.1 litres and too cramped for two, had two gearboxes. Charlie Whatmore's Studebaker, too, but a little too much like a speedcar (it had had 14" added to the wheelbase to get the straight 8 in for this race).
Barry's point about being away from the 'centre of world motor racing' is one I don't accept... wherever it is, it is what it is. It's the best that there is there, if you know what I mean... It's even possible that you should consider that there were two P3 Alfas that could have entered but didn't choose to.
But que sera sera... and keep up the good work, Hans.
#38
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 30 June 2002 - 07:13
Last year February, when the list went on the Web, I anticipated only very few changes to be made. How very wrong I was. Then I had 680 races recorded and now there are 740. You guys questioned me, corrected me, pushed me, made suggestions and additions. I want to thank everybody and all of you, who have shown so much interest and helped to make this little listing more accurate and complete. Since February last year, Leif updated the list for me nine times. Thanks Leif!
It has now become a true community effort. I never stop learning. Thank you very much!
It has now become a true community effort. I never stop learning. Thank you very much!
#39
Barry Lake
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Posted 02 July 2002 - 17:15
Hans
Looking through your latest list, I picked up some minor errors I am sure you will want to correct.
Circuit is spelled "cicuit" in some places.
Two ways of spelling (I don't know which is correct): Corrigrohane/Carrigrohane
Should "del Plata" be "Mar del Plata"?
There is a "Bernd Bernd Rosemeyer" that should be "Brno Bernd Rosemeyer"
"Jean-Pierre Wimille" I thought should be hyphenated. You have "Jean Pierre". Which is correct?
One mention of Wimille has no space between Pierre and Wimille: "Jean PierreWimille"
Pescara is spelled on a couple of occasions as "Perscara".
Landi sometimes is called "Chico", sometimes "Francisco". Both are correct, but one should be chosen, I believe.
There was another one that had very obvious mis-spelling of a driver and either the car or the circuit. I thought I would remember it, so didn't write it down - then forgot it! If you glance down the list, you should spot it easily, I believe. I seem to remember there being a "z" involved.
Also, there were some cases of things like a comma placed where you have not normally had one, full stops omitted, etc. I didn't note these. For consistency, a browse through the list for such things wouldn't go astray.
That is very few mistakes really, for such a long list. (There could be more I have not noticed, of course).
Are you expecting to find more races to add to the list, or do you think it is complete/close to complete now?
Great job. I can only imagine how many hours went into it.
Looking through your latest list, I picked up some minor errors I am sure you will want to correct.
Circuit is spelled "cicuit" in some places.
Two ways of spelling (I don't know which is correct): Corrigrohane/Carrigrohane
Should "del Plata" be "Mar del Plata"?
There is a "Bernd Bernd Rosemeyer" that should be "Brno Bernd Rosemeyer"
"Jean-Pierre Wimille" I thought should be hyphenated. You have "Jean Pierre". Which is correct?
One mention of Wimille has no space between Pierre and Wimille: "Jean PierreWimille"
Pescara is spelled on a couple of occasions as "Perscara".
Landi sometimes is called "Chico", sometimes "Francisco". Both are correct, but one should be chosen, I believe.
There was another one that had very obvious mis-spelling of a driver and either the car or the circuit. I thought I would remember it, so didn't write it down - then forgot it! If you glance down the list, you should spot it easily, I believe. I seem to remember there being a "z" involved.
Also, there were some cases of things like a comma placed where you have not normally had one, full stops omitted, etc. I didn't note these. For consistency, a browse through the list for such things wouldn't go astray.
That is very few mistakes really, for such a long list. (There could be more I have not noticed, of course).
Are you expecting to find more races to add to the list, or do you think it is complete/close to complete now?
Great job. I can only imagine how many hours went into it.
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#40
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 02 July 2002 - 17:40
Every time I trigger off an update (thank you Leif!), I think this is now the perfect version. At this time I don't expect to add other races to the list. Also many thanks for pointing out those mistakes, Barry. I will make an effort to wipe them out by the end of this month.Originally posted by Barry Lake
.....Are you expecting to find more races to add to the list, or do you think it is complete/close to complete now?
Great job. I can only imagine how many hours went into it.
.....and yes, I don't want to tell anybody how much time I spent on this list. Most would not believe it.
#41
Barry Lake
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 14:33
Hans
I COULD go and look this up myself, but since it is your area of expertise now... and I have had enough distractions from my work for one night. It could develop into a long job - knowing the way of these things.
You list the race at Lyon, 4 August 1924, as the European Grand Prix.
Another source I have noted calls it the French GP.
Venables, in First Among Champions, calls it the GP de l'ACF.
Could you please confirm that your title is correct and whether or not it also was the French GP or GP de l'ACF (in addition to European GP, that is)?
I COULD go and look this up myself, but since it is your area of expertise now... and I have had enough distractions from my work for one night. It could develop into a long job - knowing the way of these things.
You list the race at Lyon, 4 August 1924, as the European Grand Prix.
Another source I have noted calls it the French GP.
Venables, in First Among Champions, calls it the GP de l'ACF.
Could you please confirm that your title is correct and whether or not it also was the French GP or GP de l'ACF (in addition to European GP, that is)?
#42
Vitesse2
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 15:05
Barry - it was both. That was the second of the "courtesy titled" European GPs - the first was the 1923 Belgian GP.
There was a thread about this a while back and we did produce a complete list I think.
There was a thread about this a while back and we did produce a complete list I think.
#43
Barry Lake
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 15:37
Vitesse2
I suspected as much. But was it French GP or GP de l'ACF?
I suspected as much. But was it French GP or GP de l'ACF?
#44
dretceterini
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 15:43
A big THANK YOU to all involved!! 
Stu
Stu
#45
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 17:37
French Grand Prix - is what I would call it in English - that's the way to say it
Grand Prix of France - is probably the proper way you could write it in English
Grand Prix de L'A.C.F. - is the title in French
European Grand Prix - is the way you say it in English
Grand Prix of Europe - probably proper English
Grand Prix d'Europe - same in French
The 1924 race at Lyon (Lyons for Brits) carried the official title of Grand Prix d'Europe. At the same time it was also the Grand Prix de L'A.C.F. but it would be wrong to name it the latter when referring to the event. I usually go by what was written in contemporary magazines and they called it Grand Prix d'Europe, in French. This can then be translated in all different languages.
First European GP was held on September 9, 1923 at Monza
Second 1924 in Lyon
Third 1925 at Spa
Fourth 1926 at Lasarte
Fifth 1927 at Monza
Sixth 1928 at Monza (had been planned for Brooklands)
The 1929 event was cancelled (had been planned for Monza)
Seventh 1930 at Spa
Eighth 1947 at Spa
Ninth 1948 at Berne
Tenth 1949 at Monza
Eleventh 1950 at Silverstone - also referred to as British GP
Grand Prix of France - is probably the proper way you could write it in English
Grand Prix de L'A.C.F. - is the title in French
European Grand Prix - is the way you say it in English
Grand Prix of Europe - probably proper English
Grand Prix d'Europe - same in French
The 1924 race at Lyon (Lyons for Brits) carried the official title of Grand Prix d'Europe. At the same time it was also the Grand Prix de L'A.C.F. but it would be wrong to name it the latter when referring to the event. I usually go by what was written in contemporary magazines and they called it Grand Prix d'Europe, in French. This can then be translated in all different languages.
First European GP was held on September 9, 1923 at Monza
Second 1924 in Lyon
Third 1925 at Spa
Fourth 1926 at Lasarte
Fifth 1927 at Monza
Sixth 1928 at Monza (had been planned for Brooklands)
The 1929 event was cancelled (had been planned for Monza)
Seventh 1930 at Spa
Eighth 1947 at Spa
Ninth 1948 at Berne
Tenth 1949 at Monza
Eleventh 1950 at Silverstone - also referred to as British GP
#46
Vitesse2
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 19:16
Just to clarify: the official title of the race known in English as the French Grand Prix was, until 1967, the Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France. From 1968 the race was run by the Féderation Francaise Sport Automobile and known as the Grand Prix de France. At the time they started a new numbering sequence, so contemporary sources refer to 1968 as the first GP de France. It was not until 1974 that the ACF and FFSA came to an agreement on numbering and the races were retrospectively renumbered to fit the ACF numbers.
There were six previous races called Grand Prix de France, in 1911, 1912, 1913, 1934, 1935 and 1949, but that's another story .....
There were six previous races called Grand Prix de France, in 1911, 1912, 1913, 1934, 1935 and 1949, but that's another story .....
#47
anjakub
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 19:58
The excerpt from Hans Etzrodt's list of GP winners 1895-1949:
Voiturettes, light cars and four-seated cars had on few occations defeated the heavy or two-seated cars, equals to the GP cars. The outright winner is shown, coming from a minor category instead the first two-seated heavy car. The same applies to some events in 1899 and 1900, where tricycles and even motorcycles (not shown!) beat the bigger cars ...
Hans,
In conformity with my old notes in Berlin-Aachen race in 1900 (690,3 km) the fastest driver was Gleize on tricycle (make? type?) - time 14h46m22s. The second was E. Kraütler - time 16h59m24s.
Is it true?
Voiturettes, light cars and four-seated cars had on few occations defeated the heavy or two-seated cars, equals to the GP cars. The outright winner is shown, coming from a minor category instead the first two-seated heavy car. The same applies to some events in 1899 and 1900, where tricycles and even motorcycles (not shown!) beat the bigger cars ...
Hans,
In conformity with my old notes in Berlin-Aachen race in 1900 (690,3 km) the fastest driver was Gleize on tricycle (make? type?) - time 14h46m22s. The second was E. Kraütler - time 16h59m24s.
Is it true?
#48
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 04:29
Yes, Gleize (Cudell tricycle) had the fastest time and was the overall winner. He started in class 1 (motorcycles, smaller and larger) up to 250 kg. My mistake! My source did not tell me specifically that it was a tricycle but by deduction we can establish that since it was a Cudell and started in class 1 below 250 kg, it was therefore a three-wheeler. Thanks Andrzej, it will be altered by the end of this month. I am still correcting the many typos found by Barry - thanks again. Good detective work by all. Thank you for improving this list.Originally posted by anjakub
.....in Berlin-Aachen race in 1900 (690,3 km) the fastest driver was Gleize on tricycle (make? type?) - time 14h46m22s. The second was E. Kraütler - time 16h59m24s.
Is it true?
By the way, Max Cudell in Aachen, Germany, had begun building cars by obtaining licenses for De Dion engines and vehicles in 1897. I was not aware of that until right now. I should really do more reading in my books than posting here at TNF.
#49
Roger Clark
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 06:47
Originally posted by Vitesse2
Just to clarify: the official title of the race known in English as the French Grand Prix was, until 1967, the Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France. From 1968 the race was run by the Féderation Francaise Sport Automobile and known as the Grand Prix de France. At the time they started a new numbering sequence, so contemporary sources refer to 1968 as the first GP de France. It was not until 1974 that the ACF and FFSA came to an agreement on numbering and the races were retrospectively renumbered to fit the ACF numbers.
There were six previous races called Grand Prix de France, in 1911, 1912, 1913, 1934, 1935 and 1949, but that's another story .....
Not to mention Les Grands Prix de France of 1952.
It is presumably a coincidence that the first and last Grands Prix de l'ACF were both held at Le Mans, although the Bugatti circuit was hardly a fitting monument to the series.
#50
Barry Lake
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 15:30
Hans
Sorry to keep you away from your books (or perhaps sending you back to them) do you have any comment on the following statement? The date is the same as your "Bruxelles-Namur-Spa" race.
"1 July 1899. Mme Labrousse, believed to be the first woman to compete in an automotive speed event, finished fifth in the Paris-Spa race."
Sorry to keep you away from your books (or perhaps sending you back to them) do you have any comment on the following statement? The date is the same as your "Bruxelles-Namur-Spa" race.
"1 July 1899. Mme Labrousse, believed to be the first woman to compete in an automotive speed event, finished fifth in the Paris-Spa race."
