US F5000 data... is anyone compiling it?

The header pretty much says it all

Is anyone truly compiling this data. I ask because I have seen/read of several people planning on, or hoping to, do this project and I don't want to go ahead and do this if it makes someone else's project redundant.

If anyone reading this is attempting to, or has attempted to, do this project, please let me know. If you attempted and gave up on it...was it because of lack of data? That shouldn't be a problem for me as I am pretty certain that I have accounts of every U.S. Pro Formula Series race (yes, even the 1967, pre-F5000 season).

Though I have a great interest in U.S. F5000 history and greatly enjoyed the races I saw at Riverside, if someone else is compiling the data, I have far more obscure corners of motorsport to occupy my time with


Jim Thurman

I also am interested in a small bit of US F5000 history. I was told by a former NART mechanic that Masten Gregory ran a US F5000 team sometime in the 1970's. If anyone out there has any knowledge of this, I would appreciate it.

Jim,

If it weren't for my Day Job.....

Quite seriously, I have a serious interest in providing some means to make available to others with an interest in F5000 and so forth, not only the results but the stories of the races and the seasons.

It is frustrating to hear about information being assembled, but then not seeing it. Or, worse, being in a $300 book -- which is difficult to get and hard to justify to your wife....

Island has an intense interest in the qualifying times for the '73 Mid Ohio race. He would probably like other info as well.

I followed F5000 pretty closely from '73 on. I don't recall Masten Gregory running a team. It's possible he ran something in just a few races during those years, or perhaps pre-1973.

Jim,

I have a homepage with US-F5000 related stories and statistics.
See: www.people.freenet.de/Formula5000

Dave is right. I am looking for the complete qualifying times of
the 1973 L&M Championship races at MIS, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta
and Seattle. Can you help ?

Jim

Like Island, I'm very interested and you'll find quite a lot of material on my site (much coming from Island).

Like Don, but for my day job...

Could we do this between us in some way?

Allen

I have results from 1971 (I notice that Island's directory begins at 1972). Do you want this or is it already available elsewhere?

I lucked up and found my program from the 1972 Road Atlanta -- however, the datasheet that was in it is now gone. It had the times from the practice sessions, the results, and my notes on the chassis numbers (groan....); but, it does have the autographs of a bunch of drivers in it! This includes Dan Gurney, Sam Posey, Graham McRae (on the same page as Gurney...), Gus Hutchinson, Pete Brock, David Hobbs, Brett Lunger, and Brian Redman.

And, Allen, there is probably something we can work out....and ditto for Island.

Originally posted by island
Jim,

I have a homepage with US-F5000 related stories and statistics.
See: www.people.freenet.de/Formula5000

Dave is right. I am looking for the complete qualifying times of
the 1973 L&M Championship races at MIS, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta
and Seattle. Can you help ?

Yes, I should have that info. Might be a few days before I can get to it, but it should be easy to find.

Thank you for putting together a website to remember a great form of racing.


Jim Thurman

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Jim

Like Island, I'm very interested and you'll find quite a lot of material on my site (much coming from Island).

Like Don, but for my day job...

Could we do this between us in some way?

Allen

Sounds good. I'm sort of busy with other projects at the moment, but I'll be glad to provide additional info you need.

Thanks for putting together a website covering F5000.


Jim Thurman

Mike

I'd love the 1971 results! What form do you have them in? I can give you a postal address if you need to send photocopies.

Allen

Jim, Island, Don

It sounds like we are all busy with other projects so I had an idea for how we can get something quite useful quite quickly - and then do the full project when we have more time.

How about producing summary tables for each season. This would just show all the participating drivers, their car(s) and their basic result at each race. Something like this:

		   R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 etc

Andretti	5  R  1  R  2  2 ...

Redman	  1  1  2  1  R  1 ...

Scheckter   -  -  R  2  1  R ...

Gunn		4  7  R  3  8  4 ...

Some annuals already have these tables (I have 1975 and 1976 from Road Racing Annual) so they should be relatively easy to produce. We'd need to agree codes for 'did not start', 'did not qualify for final', 'retired in heat' (different to 'retired in final'?) and so on, but I'm sure that won't take long.

Later, we can work though getting all the practice times, grid positions and so on, but I think having (and publishing) these tables will make it a lot easier to get other people to contribute to the larger project.

What do you think?

Allen

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Jim, Island, Don

It sounds like we are all busy with other projects so I had an idea for how we can get something quite useful quite quickly - and then do the full project when we have more time.
[snip]
Later, we can work though getting all the practice times, grid positions and so on, but I think having (and publishing) these tables will make it a lot easier to get other people to contribute to the larger project.

What do you think?

That format sounds good, but my project isn't going to be so time consuming that I can't find time to get the F5000 info. In fact, I should be able to check on it by Monday or Tuesday at the latest.

The only problem I see here is Autoweek is my main source as well, so if you and island already have them, there isn't a lot I can add other than perhaps cross-checking data from the 1972, 1973 and 1974 Riverside qualifying sheets.

I do have some regional papers that might have info on Riverside, Sears Point and Seattle events, but definitely not as detailed as Autoweek. There is a possibility though they might feature some different info.

My only other suggestion (considering the paucity of U.S. publications covering F5000) would be to try and check microfilm of the newspapers in the areas, which is truly hit or miss.


Jim Thurman

Jim,

did you take photos at the Riverside F5000 races ?

Originally posted by island
Jim,

did you take photos at the Riverside F5000 races ?

Yes, I did island...but you've brought up a minor tragedy.

I was a teenager then and took what I felt were the best photos of my life during the 1974 race. I was using my father's camera, which used a rather rare and odd film size. In my eagerness to get them developed, I took them to a chain photo development place. Upon picking them up, imagine my horror to discover they had been developed at the wrong speed!. Every picture was blurred badly. I had taken six rolls of film of the whole weekend (including IROC II - the first use of the Camaros). The only offer from the big chain was they'd refund or offer rolls of film to replace up to four rolls. So, I still have two...badly blurred. Maybe one day technologic advances will find a way to repair them. I even took them to photography class at high school and was using the light box to look at them. The teacher walked by and said "Wow, someone sure developed those at the wrong speed...those were good shots. You took some good pictures there." He complimented me about some of the angles I used and even asked *me* how I did a couple. Aaargh!

I even ruined a pair of pants kneeling in a puddle of brake fluid while taking a shot of the frantic effort in getting Gus Hutchison's Brabham ready to roar out of the garage area late in the practice session.

A shot of Bobby Unser's turbocharged Offy powered Eagle Indy Car - which was running with the F5000 cars that weekend. They truly were the best photos I ever took!. I took a photo of a bib overall clad James Hunt on a mini bike all of about five feet away from me...

Oh well Hope no one minded this tale.


Jim Thurman

Jim,

that is a shame ! Six film rolls of F5000 pics ! How badly are
the photos blurred ? Can you recognize the cars ?
By the way, do you have photos of the 1972 and 1973 Riverside
F5000 races ?

Originally posted by island
Jim,

that is a shame ! Six film rolls of F5000 pics ! How badly are
the photos blurred ? Can you recognize the cars ?
By the way, do you have photos of the 1972 and 1973 Riverside
F5000 races ?

I got so caught up in the story of the photos I neglected to mention that, unfortunately, I did not take any photos of the 1972 or 1973 Riverside F5000 races. For those, I was seated high in the turn 6 grandstands (which were quite high!) and would have needed a telephoto lens. My brother got paddock passes for both of us for each year's Times Grand Prix. In 1972 and 1973, that was still a Can-Am race. In 1974, it became a F5000 race, so that was the only year I was in the paddock with the F5000s.

The two rolls I kept (I wish I'd have kept all six now, but at the time, it was more a financial necessity) are rather blurry, but it is still possible to figure out who they are of though. Why did I keep those two?...either they were the least blurred or I preferred the shots better.

It also was the only time I took photos from the bluff overlooking turn 7 . What a great spot that was...with the cars cresting the hill and diving into the turn.


Jim Thurman

Well, I checked the regional paper for info on the 1973 Seattle F5000 race. Unfortunately, it had absolutely no information at all

I took a quick glance at the Autoweeks. I hadn't noticed that they went to printing the final, post heat grid, without qualifying times. I guess a byproduct of going to the heat format. And I couldn't help but notice the Michigan race report didn't even have that.

Still, if anyone needs F5000 info compiled from Autoweek from 1967 through 1976, I'll be glad to note them down.

And one last thing on the blurred photos...it was a hard lesson, but I learned patience pays off. I should have taken them to our usual developers like my father suggested (they had always developed this odd sized film very well, but I simply couldn't wait the extra two or three days to see my photos). Still, I think I could have learned this lesson some other way


Jim Thurman

I also checked the local newspapers for those 1973 times.
The Public Libraries near MIS, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta and SIR sent me photocopies. No time tables, however.
Only the "Seattle Times" has the Top Twelve Qualifiers of the September 30 L&M event.
SCCA and race tracks have no detailed records, I have learned.

Jim, would you sell copies of your 1974 Riverside F5000 photos ?

I wonder if SCCA's internal publication, "Sports Car" would have the qualifying times. There must be people like me who save everything, but I was not a SCCA member at that time.

One way to try to find someone with the old issues of "Sports Car" would be to go to www.scca.org and go to their list of region websites. You might be able to post the inqury on the website's classified page, or perhaps email some of the people associated with that site or region. I would help but I don't anticipate having much time in the next few to several months, sorry.

Who did timing and scoring for those races? I'd suppose it would have been volunteers from the regions near each racetrack. Someone in one of those regions might have some archives.

Dave

I have Sports Car for much of this period. It is virtually useless for 1975 so I'd be surprised if it was much help for 1973.

And Formula hadn't even started in 1973.

Is National Speed Sport News any good?

Allen

Only the 1973 NSSN copies with the Riverside and Laguna Seca F5000 reports have time tables.
I also contacted the Atlanta and Pacific Northwest SCCA regions.
However, no grid sheets of the Road Atlanta and SIR L&M races
were still available.

I was at the Watkins Glen library last week and have copied the 1968 results from Autoweek. I also have the 1967 results from Island and will start transcribing these later this week.

I also have full result tables for 1975 and 1976 that I am happy to transcribe.

Any volunteers for 1969-1974?

Allen

Re: THE SCCA F-5000 (Formula A) Continental Championsip Series

There are two sources that are bound to provide the data mentioned by many of the respondents: Autoweek & Competition Press (now Autoweek) archives -- and the National Speed Sport News archives. Although someone said in one of the communiques that NSSN didn't cover the series, it very definitely did (I worked there; L&M was buying ads; and believe me, we covered it).

In any case, one of those two sources should do it. The other alternative might be a nice letter to Sam Posey at Speedvision; he may very have sources -- and is a very nice guy.

Also, clearly, he doesn't want this aspect of motosport lost to the ages -- he was very much a part of it!

Best of luck with this research; also, if anyone is successful they might pass the data on to the Grand Prix Legends community in that several of that group are trying to authentically recreate the cars (and proper physics) to provide a computer simulation of that truly wild and wooly wonderful series.

I saw many of those races even prior to my tenure at NSSN; I worked as a Chief Mechanic on the Formula B support series (on at then brand new Brabham BT-29 with a BRM Ford twin-cam).

Best of luck,

CADBLACK@aol.com

Allen,

I have the material from Sports Car for F SCCA for 1967 & 1968 (except for one race which was in the missing pages of an issue), plus the Autoweek stuff for 1967. Lost the 1968 folder somewhere.

Keep up the good work.

CADBLACK, I remember seeing F SCCA/ FA/ F5000 material in NSSN, but alas, all my old copies from that era are long gone. NSSN was a mind-boggling read some weeks, covering about everything imaginable!

Don

Could you send me copies of what you have from 1967/68 Sports Car please. I will then compare that with what Autoweek has and post back the fullest results possible.

CADBLACK

I looked in NSSN for coverage of 1967 and 1968 and found nothing. Which years are you certain it was there? I could ask my new friends at the Watkins Glen research centre to send me copies of something if I can be sure it exists.

Many thanks to you both

Allen

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I was at the Watkins Glen library last week and have copied the 1968 results from Autoweek. I also have the 1967 results from Island and will start transcribing these later this week.

I also have full result tables for 1975 and 1976 that I am happy to transcribe.

Any volunteers for 1969-1974?

I don't know what else Island has, but I should be able to make a go of that (so long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's research plans). I have CP/A from 66-early 78.

Allen, I'd want to see your format so I could keep things going along in the same way.


Jim Thurman

Jim

I've started with a simple summary - enough to see what cars raced, who raced them and what their basic results were. As for format, I'm making it up as I go along! Here's my spreadsheet for 1968 which I've taken entirely from Autoweek.

http://www.oldracing...ays/f500068.xls

Any suggestions?

It needs to be cross-checked against Sports Car magazine if Don can provide me with that material. Autosport has no real coverage of FA in 1968 and I'm still not sure if NSSN can add anything.

If we could produce this sort of thing for each year of F5000, we'd have made a wonderful start to fully documenting the series. Later, we can collate further details such as grid positions, qualifying times, fastest laps and so on. I should be able to help by identifying individual cars.

Allen

Edited by Allen Brown, 10 January 2010 - 12:42.

Generally,

I am running in so many different directions with so many different projects that I am seriously considering hiring a staff!

The work I am doing (or at least trying to do) on F/SCCA, FA, F5000 project is a direct result of my interest in the 1966/1967/1968 seasons.

I will remember to get the Sports Car information out of its folders and then let Allen & Jim look at it. It is more basic than you think....

OK, here's 1968. The ARRC wasn't a round of the championship but I've included it for interest.

Driver				 Car					R1   R2   R3   R4   R5   R6   R7   R8 ARRC

Lou Sell			   Eagle Mk 5			  1	1	R	1	1	5	4	1	-

George Wintersteen	 Eagle Mk 5			  -	2	-	4	2	1	1	2	-

Bob Brown			  Lola T140			   -	5	R	2	4	2	2	R	-

Jerry Hansen		   Lola T140			   2	-	1	R	7	-	3	-	2

Brian O'Neill		  Lola T140			   -	-	3	3	5	3	R	-	7

Henry 'Hank' Candler   Lola T140			   4	R	2	5   13	-	-	-	-

Kurt Reinhold		  McKee Mk 8			  -	3	R	C	3	-	7	R	3

John Gunn			  Lola T140			   -	6	4   12	6	-	-	-	-

Bud Morley			 McLaren M1B-Ford	  DSQ	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Bud Morley			 McLaren M1B-Chev		-	-   12	-	-	-	6	3	5

Mak Kronn			  McKee Mk 8			  3	R	C	-	-	-	-	-	-

Jack Eiteljorg		 Eisert 68 FA			5	R	R   NS	R	-	R	-	-

Jack Eiteljorg		 Lola					-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-   11

Steve Durst			Vulcan-Chev			 -	R	5	-	- 13/C	-   10	8

Stew McMillan		  Eisert 65 Indy		  9	-	R	-	-	-	5   NS	9

David Pabst			Lola-Chev			   -	-	6	-	-	-	-	-	-

Ron Grable			 Spectre HR-1			R	-	-	-	-	-	-	R	1

Pierre Philips		 Lola T140			   -	-	-	-	-	-	-	R	4

Sam Posey			  LeGrand-Chev			-	-	-	-	R	-	-	-	-

Sam Posey			  Caldwell D8			 -	-	-	-	-	7	-	-	-

Rex Ramsey			 LeGrand				 -	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	6

Rex Ramsey			 US Shadow 1			 -	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	T

Mike Hiss			  Lola T140			   -	-	-	-	9	-	-   NS	-

Nick Dioguardi		 WRE Shadow-Ford		 -	-	-	-	-	-	-  DSQ   10

Jerry Rosbach		  Lola-Chev			   -	-	-	-	-	-   12	-	-

Lyle Forsgren		  Forsgrini 10D		   -	-	-	-	-	-	-   12	-

Walt Mathewson		 Cooper T51-Ferrari	 15	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Brett Lunger		   Caldwell D8B			-	-	-	-	R	-   18	R	-

Ed Marshall			Cooper F2-Ferrari	   -	-	-	-	-	-	-   19	-

Ron Letallier		  Stanguellini			-	-   20	-	-	-	-	-	-

Spurgeon May		   Cooper-Chev		   DSQ  DSQ	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Tom Wingett			Cooper (FA?)			R	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Joe Starkey			McLaren M1B-Olds		R  DSQ	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Paul Wigton			Cooper-Chev			 R	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Chuck Trowbridge	   Lotus 24-Ford V8		R	R	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Pete Helferich		 Lola-Chev			   -	R	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Bob Betts			  LeGrand-Chev			-	-	-	R	-	-	-	-	-

Al Pease			   Eagle T1F			   -	-	-   NS	R	-	-	-	-

George Alderman		Vulcan-Chev			 -	-	-	-	-	R	-	-	-

Jerry Entin			LeGrand Mk 7A		   -	-	-	-	-	-	R	-	-

Jim Mulhall			Shrike-Chev			 -	-	-	-	-	-   NS	-	-

Jim Mulhall			Hildebrand-Chev		 -	-	-	-	-	-	-	R	-

Dick Guldstrand		LeGrand				 -	-	-	-	-	-	-	R	-

Gene Wilbanks		  Unser-Lotus-Chev	   NS	-	-	-	-	-	-	-   NS

Don Richardson		 LeGrand Mk 7		   NS	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Steve Harris		   Lotus 18 (FA?)		 NS	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Barry Blackmore		LeGrand-Chev			-	-	-	-	-	-	-   NS	-

Gary Belcher		   Lola T140			   -	-	-	-	-	-	-	-   NS

Allen

If anyone is still constructing summaries for other seasons, I've changed my spreadsheet so the second sheet produces the results in the style used in my last post. It makes posting the summary onto TNF much, much easier.

It's here: http://www.oldracing...ays/f500068.xls.

Enjoy!

Allen

Edited by Allen Brown, 10 January 2010 - 12:39.

A Stanguellini F5000? Never heard of that one! :stunned:

Michael

Remember this is 1968, so not all these cars are real F5000s. The libre formula which ran up to 1964 encouraged all sorts of odd cars to appear. When FA, FB and FC arrived in 1965, anything with a proper racing engine over 1100cc ended up in FA. FB only allowed production 1600cc engines.

So all the 1.5-litre racing cars were in FA. I think the Stanguellini will turn out to be something about 1.5-litre to 2-litre in capacity which was just out for a bit of easy prize money. Letallier was last in the race, behind all the FBs.

Allen

Has anyone noticed that in the Competition Press and in the Sports Car results for the 1967 Bridgehampton race that the 16th place finisher is listed as "Unknown" -- really! It was a LeGrand, but no driver is listed. Also, per usual, no entry list I can find. Any information on this slight problem?

Allen,

Remind me to send you some info next week on what I have found digging through my files. Some nice pictures that you might be interested in.

Also, congrats being featured on the "Hard Drive" section in the August issue of Vintage Race Cars and Market Report.

I am becoming more & more convinced that I really need to sit down soon and get serious about this subject.

Originally posted by Don Capps
Also, congrats being featured on the "Hard Drive" section in the August issue of Vintage Race Cars and Market Report.

Don

What did it say? I don't get that mag.

My F5000 research is still going strong but I'm mainly working on car histories at the moment rather than race results. (I posted Leda and Matich pages recently and Surtees TS8 and TS11 pages are probably next.) I am willing to go through each season collating the results but support sure would be welcome!

Allen

Originally posted by Allen Brown


My F5000 research is still going strong but I'm mainly working on car histories at the moment rather than race results. (I posted Leda and Matich pages recently and Surtees TS8 and TS11 pages are probably next.) I am willing to go through each season collating the results but support sure would be welcome!

Allan, although that's a great format for the summary, I'd just as soon get grid times, etc. when I can go through the CP/A for info.

Barring disasters, I should be able to do that in the next month or so, after getting at least a bit further in my other projects

Any preferences or type of format for qualifying times, etc.?


Jim Thurman

Here is what is on page 42 of Vintage Racecar Journal and Market Report for August 2001:

HARD DRIVE
We investigate some of the more interesting sites for vintage racing enthusiasts.

Old Racing Cars

Our featured site this month has taken on the daunting task of tracking the history of individual racecars from the 3-liter Formula One period, Formula A/5000, Single-Seat Can-Am, and the Tasman Race Series.

Each section is organized in such a way that there is a listing of each manufacturer that took part in a given series. Once a manufacturer is selected, one can then choose a given model. What follows is a list of each chassis of that model. Selecting a particular chassis number calls up a table which shows the entire race-by-race record of that chassis, including driver and finishing position.

Of the four car categories, the F5000 and the Single-Seat Can-Am sections are the most comprehensive. However, within each of the segments there is an impressive amount of information compiled from both published sources and direct communication with car owners. For those interested in researching specific cars or race results from these series, this will prove a very valuable resource.
http://www.oldracingcars.com/


Also, the July and August issues of Sports Car carried a two-part series on "Can-Am II."

How nice

I take it they actually spelt the URL correctly!!

Allen

"I don't care what you say about me as long as you spell my URL right" - Allen Brown, 2001, with apologies to PT Barnum.

They did, but I didn't.....

After taking a very critical look at my (too) many projects, I decided that many were either pointless or could be done by someone else, therfore I have shelved them and started to devote more time to those I would really like to do.

In what can only be thought of as my own moment of xenophobic behavior, I have decided to ditch most of my "European" projects and focus on my "American" projects, the foremost among these being my compiling data on the F/SCCA, FA, F5000 series.

Slowly, I have started to put together the results and other information for each US season. I am using information from Wolfgang and Allen plus whatever else I have been able to come up with on my own. Currently I am wading through what I have and tippy-typing it into some coherent form. It is slow work, but satisfying in several ways: since I was at a number of the races I can almost visualize the events at times....

Also, this has brought me back into looking harder at the AAA/USAC National Championship series and the CART series -- as well as the IRL. Plus, professional racing in the US as a topic to look at -- the USAC & AAA sports car events have definitely caught my interest -- again....

Perhaps Jim, Michael T. or someone else can help me out here, but there seems to be a serious gap in the amount of trees killed to record the times & follies of GP/F1 and so forth on the European racing scene: I mean entire forests have perished just to record the trials & foibles of the WDC (including that huge 2-volume set I saw the other day at Borders) and its related topics (constructor histories and driver bios -- bios on Senna along are a reason for the depletion of the Amazon rainforest alone....) plus all the other topics that could be lumped into this category. I have easily dozens of books on Ferrari alone, for heaven's sake! But, only one on Kurtis cars! And only two or three on Millers!

Meanwhile, as mentioned, it is relatively slim pickin's on the US side. There is a new book out on the Watson cars. There are the Dick Wallen books. There are the Dave Friedman books. And the Pete Lyons books. Of course, there is Michael's book. A few on Watkins Glen or a few other US tracks. Perhaps a small forest versus several huge forests.

So, after mulling this over, I have come to a few ideas of where I will proabably be heading in the future. While I will not abandon my interest in the "European" side of the sport, it will not be my primary focus as it has been in the past. I plan to spend most of my time working on projects related to US racing.

Although best left as perhaps a better topic for another day, I have come to the conclusion that US racing is basically treated as a second tier topic by most that delve into racing and racing history. I don't think it is the intention of most here at TNF, but it just works out that way.

Also, as Tim Considine and I have been going back and forth over posting the errata for his wonderful book on Americans in Grand Prix racing, I took the time to really read it once again, focusing on the parts that often seem to get skipped over -- the early decades of the last century. That plus re-reading my book on the Savannah Grand Prize races and Griff Borgeson's The Golden Age of the American Racing Car all got me to thinking about things.

It is intersting to realize that the US National Championship (which is what CART should really call its series) has been contested continuously since 1920 -- with a break from the inaugural season in 1916 and then the 1942 - 1945 period -- by the AAA, then USAC, and now CART. Yet, there isn't much out there on the National Championship in print. Dick Wallen has coverage of the 1950's and the 1960's and the board tracks, but there is really not many other books out there on the NC. Certainly nothing like the CSI's WDC.

Well, end of rambling. As you were.....

Don

Good plan. Reporting for duty, sah!

Alen

Originally posted by Don Capps
After taking a very critical look at my (too) many projects, I decided that many were either pointless or could be done by someone else, therfore I have shelved them and started to devote more time to those I would really like to do.

I hear you Don, I'm in the same boat. While I still intend to help out in as many areas as possible, I'm probably going to concentrate more on chronicling Western U.S. short track oval racing simply because little seems to be being done with it and have a pretty good amount of knowledge and resources to work with.

Also, this has brought me back into looking harder at the AAA/USAC National Championship series and the CART series -- as well as the IRL. Plus, professional racing in the US as a topic to look at -- the USAC & AAA sports car events have definitely caught my interest -- again....
[snip]
Meanwhile, as mentioned, it is relatively slim pickin's on the US side. There is a new book out on the Watson cars. There are the Dick Wallen books. There are the Dave Friedman books. And the Pete Lyons books. Of course, there is Michael's book. A few on Watkins Glen or a few other US tracks. Perhaps a small forest versus several huge forests.

Absolutely. And think of how many of those books just came out in the last two to three years!...and think how indispensable they are. The only mentions I've seen of some events came in those books.

Also, as Tim Considine and I have been going back and forth over posting the errata for his wonderful book on Americans in Grand Prix racing, I took the time to really read it once again, focusing on the parts that often seem to get skipped over -- the early decades of the last century. That plus re-reading my book on the Savannah Grand Prize races and Griff Borgeson's The Golden Age of the American Racing Car all got me to thinking about things.

It is intersting to realize that the US National Championship (which is what CART should really call its series) has been contested continuously since 1920 -- with a break from the inaugural season in 1916 and then the 1942 - 1945 period -- by the AAA, then USAC, and now CART. Yet, there isn't much out there on the National Championship in print. Dick Wallen has coverage of the 1950's and the 1960's and the board tracks, but there is really not many other books out there on the NC. Certainly nothing like the CSI's WDC.

I can't say enough good about Considine's book. As far as the Championship races, I've always felt it's a shame that someone didn't chronicle them in the same manner and format as Greg Fielden did with his excellent "40 Years of Stock Car Racing" volumes.

There are box scores for Championship races up at motorsport.com, thanks to Phil Harms, who is *the* master of compiling race results.

Despite my plans, like I said, be more than glad to help and check out further results (like F/SCCA and F/A-F5000). Still have the open invitation to make use of what data I've compiled.


Jim Thurman

Jim,

I think the straw that finally did it was a very hard look at my personal motor sports library: tons of books on GP/F1 and so forth. And only a very few on American racing -- in part because there are only a relatively "few" available. And worse, so many of the few that are available are really little more tha PR flack in may cases so I don't even bother to do much more than skim them. However, as you pointed out, over the last several years there has been a real bonanza with Wallen, Fielden, Considine, Godon White, and others producing some really excellent books on American racing.

There are many, many books in my library on GP/F1 results and so forth -- and many more I don't have. Yet, where is there a work in print of the fine effort which Phil Harms has done to rescue all those AAA & USAC results from oblivion? Only in the back of the Wallen books are there examples of his work in print -- or least that I can lay my hands on.

While I haven't spoken with Greg Fielden in ages, I may renew the acquaintance since my son now attends college in the Myrtle Beach, SC area -- where Greg lives. Without Greg there wouldn't be any record of the early NASCAR events available for use. Indeed, if the Research Center at Watkins Glen doesn't have yet have a copy of his books -- they didn't the last time I was there -- I might approach Greg to send them a set, even if I end up footing the bill. They are part of my "Desert Island Books." The approach is really clever and I find myself reading them over and over.... By the way, NASCAR really didn't lend much help to Greg while he was doing all this work: it really wasn't that important to them at the time. At least that prevented them from halting him from doing it.... I have most of the NASCAR annual Press Guides since the mid-80's -- with I think two being lost in a move -- and they are pretty helpful. I find all sorts of information hidden away in them.

Between this Forum and the Racing History Group, I have had a very significant change of heart about where my interests and research efforts should lie. There are so many gaps in the history of American racing that is almost disheartening. There really isn't even much in the way of a "Monkhouse" for American results.

With the work Gordon White has done on both the Kurtis cars and Kurtis the man, and the new book on A.J. Watson to add to the various books on Harry Miller's cars and the Duesenbergs, we might be looking at some real promise here.

Anyhow, I would like to find a source that I can readily access the back issues of NSSN. I regret that my collection from the 60's and 70's vanished, along with those issues of Southern Motor Racing Journal and another with a similar name, Southern Motor Sports. They were just full of information that we would die for today... At any rate, I keep coming back to NSSN as a place to at least look for the basics of an event and ditto for CP (and Autoweek) when it still had the cover saying "Competition Press and Autoweek." I have most of Formula from the 2nd volume and then most of Racecar and I think I have all of On Track while it was still being printed from Vol 1 No 1 until the very end (I was subscriber # 227). NSSN is now in Harrisburg, NC and since my daughter lives in Charlotte, I will see what I do about arranging a possible visit to see if I can see their archives. I know Gordon White has all -- or just about all -- of NSSN. I never dreamed how valuable NSSN was goig to be.

At any rate, last night I took time from my slowly typing in the info for the 1972 Continental Championship season and started to look at the bigger picture, which only got me a bit depressed -- for a moment. Then I realized that if you and Allen and Wolfgang and Martin and Tim and Gordon Phil and and Greg and Michael plus others all teamed up that there really could be an encylopedia to American racing results.

Returning to reality.... I am doing my F/SCCA, FA, F5000 results in this format:

Entry

Qualifying

Race results

And then adding the current championship standings at the end of each event. I am using 1972 as my initial season to play with simply because I happened to pick it at random. I am revising my 1967 and 1968 seasons to reflect this format. If it seem to follow the Paul Sheldon format, it is not by accident. I intend to do the same with the AAA/USAC/CART/IRL races.

Ideally, it would be great to have a record which combines the best of the Sheldon, Lang, and Fielden approaches with some of the visual wealth of what the Wallen and Friedman books bring to the table. However, my personal bias is towards a combination of Sheldon, Lang, & Fielden methodology. I think that as important as the statistics are, without the "story" that goes with them -- Lang and Fielden -- you are only getting a part of the picture. However, without the statistics -- Sheldon & Harms -- you are lacking another part the story, so the two go together as far as I am concerned.

Also, the FRA -- the Formula Racing Association which seems to have vanished into the dustbin of history. Did anyone obtain their archives? As a West Coast organization, much of what they did was not always in the eye of an Easterner like me, but I did keep an eye on their column in SCG for the years it appeared.

And it goes on and on and on....

Any how, back to my labors of typing in the data for 1972....

Can anybody brief me on the "new Watson book"? Title, author, content, price, where can I order it?

U.S. Formula B data ...so is anyone compiling it?

Is there anything about FB on the Internet?

Stefan

(1) Michael, I will try to remember to post that information on the Watson book later today -- I am going to order it as soon as my wife gives me my allowance...

(2) Stefen, Funny you should mention that! Last night I was reading Pete Lyons comments on the FB series in the 1972 Autocourse and I had the same thought! As Lyons correctly states, FB was a favorite of the SCCA hierarchy and yet it was even more cursed than FA/F5000 -- if that was possible!

As for the FB and the 'net.... ...as far as I can tell.

Same question about Super Vee and Formula Atlantic: along with FB and F5000, there was lots of open-wheeled racing in North America during the 70's and then....

I do have some basic FB data, but it was a bit down the line on my list of priorities of "immediate" concerns.

However, I am blocking off a week in early November and spending it at Watkins Glen poring through everything they have on American racing. I will try to find what we here can't conjure amongst ourselves.

In a few days I should have my draft of the model format I intend to use for my files. Those interested -- Jim, Allen, "Island," "CADBLACK," Mike, Michael, Dave, and anyone else who wants it, just send me an email at this address corktree@juno.com

I am slowly working through much of this and finding what I am comfortable with as a format and what I like. Some of you will differ on this, but if I were able to do what I wish, it would be a combination of Paul Sheldon and Greg Fielden. However, right now I am more in the "Sheldon" phase....

Again, any info you want to pass on to me -- such as Mike's data from 1971 -- I am not proud and will happily accept it. Just as when I get more done, I will be happy to give it out to anyone interested.

Michael,

Try Gary Wayne at

The Watson Years
PO Box 111044
Carrollton, TX 75011-1044
USA

The price is $40.00 -- which includes shipping. However, for a overseas order, I would check with Gary first.

Hang On! Here is Gary's email address so you can contact him (I knew I had it somewhere...)

wayne.mail@verizon.net

It is a never-ending wonder what you can stumble over if you dig into your files deep enough!

Tonight I found several issues of Auto Racing magazine which covered several rounds of the 1970 SCCA CC -- nice pictures and information: the reports were written by George Wintersteen.

Plus, I found my program from the Dallas CC round which I though was looooong gone! Unfortunately, the mimeographic inserts are gone, but there is still some nice info such as the probable entry list for both the FA and FB/FC events.

I did have the good sense to scribble down the FA grid and add those not list who showed up: however, what did #29 Fred Baker & #44 Bob Nichols drive?

Also: is it "Allan" or "Alan" Lader? In the Dallas program it is "Alan" -- but in 1972 everyone seems to spell his name "Allan." Lader was in the FB event at Dallas -- #75 Brabham BT29 - Hart -- which was won by Mike Eyerly (as usual...) in his Chevron B17 - Hart. Lader started on the outside pole next to Eyerly with Fred Opert in the next row in his #74 Chevron - Hart. Unfortunately, I did not scribble a complete grid or correct the entry list for the FB event.....

I also shold be able to finish scrubbing my "test" year -- 1972 -- by early next week and send it along. I am missing a few names.

Here is the provisional entry as printed in the Road Atlanta program -- and which I added a few names from my notes in the program; it is missing quite a few names from the rest of the season (Lader for instance) and includes a few that didn't show up at all:

1 Hogan Racing Inc. Lola T300 – Chevrolet David Hobbs
3 Horst Kwech Lola T300 – Chevrolet Horst Kwech
5 Triple R Racing March 711 – Ford DFV Skip Barber
6 Hogan Racing Inc. Lola T300 – Chevrolet Brett Lunger
7 Colin Hyams Lola T192 – Chevrolet Colin Hyams
9 Kastner-Brophy Racing Lola T192 – Chevrolet Johnston
11 Motschenbacher Racing McLaren M18 – Chevrolet Lothar
Motschenbacher
12 Debbie Eiteljorg Lola T192 – Chevrolet Jack Eiteljorg
13 American Racing West Lola T142 – Chevrolet Len Guneau
14 D&A Racing Lola T142 – Chevrolet Don Inferrera
15 Warren Flickinger Lola T300 – Chevrolet W. A. Flickinger
16 Roy Woods Racing Lotus 70B – Ford George Follmer
18 Harper Racing Lola T142 – Chevrolet Dan Harper
20 Losk Racing Lola T190 – Chevrolet Dick Losk
21 Highland Toyota Eagle – Chevrolet Dave Jordan
22 Jim Paul LeGrand Mk 11B – Chevrolet Jim Paul
23 Torvick Hone-O-Drive McLaren M10B – Chevrolet Tony Settember
24 Evan Noyes Leda LT27 – Chevrolet Evan Noyes
26 Gerard Raney Eagle – Chevrolet Gerard Raney
28 Kathy Wells Eagle – Chevrolet Michael Brayton
32 Vanguard Racing McLaren M10B – Chevrolet Benny Scott
33 Team Corsair Surtees TS8B – Chevrolet Clive Baker
34 Champ Carr, Inc. Surtees TS11B – Chevrolet Sam Posey
35 Champ Carr, Inc. Surtees TS8B – Chevrolet Rocky Moran
36 Robert Fischetti Surtees TS5 – Chevrolet Robert Fischetti
37 Horst Kroll Racing Lola T300 – Chevrolet Horst Kroll
38 Art Sugal Eisert – Chevrolet Ken L. Hamilton
39 John Gunn Racing Lola T300 – Chevrolet John Gunn
40 Cal Rayborn Enterprises Lola T190 – Chevrolet Calvin Rayborn
42 Parsons Eagle – Chevrolet Parsons
43 Mike B. Koslosky Eagle – Chevrolet Skeeter McKiterick
44 Jerry Hansen Lola T300 – Chevrolet Jerry Hansen
47 Jack Peterson Lola T190 – Chevrolet Ed Felter
46 BRE Racing Team Lotus 70 – Ford John Morton
49 Bob Allen Race Engineering Eagle – Chevrolet Bob Allen
51 Hutchinson Racing Engines Lola T300 – Chevrolet Gus Hutchinson
53 Yarbrough McKee Mk 12D – Chevrolet Yarbrough
59 Sandy Shepard Lola T300 – Pontiac Sandy Shepard
61 Lou Pavesi McLaren M10B – Chevrolet Lou Pavesi
64 McNeil Lola T192 – Chevrolet McNeil
66 Crown Lynn Leda GM1 – Chevrolet Graham McRae
67 West Lotus 70B – Ford West
69 Eglington Racing Enterprise Lotus 70 – Ford Bruce Eglington
74 Fred Opert Motor Racing Chevron B18 – Cosworth Nick Craw
75 Kevin Bartlett McLaren M10B – Chevrolet Kevin Bartlett
76 John Kuenzli ??? – Chevrolet Gary W. Buarke
77 Bob Santolini Spartan Mk. II – Chevrolet Angus MacDonald
79 M. S. Patterson LeGrand Mk. 7A – Chevrolet Mal Patterson
80 Brian Redman Chevron B24 – Chevrolet Brian Redman
84 Merle Brennan Auto Inc. McLaren M10B – Chevrolet Merle Brennan
85 William Brack Lotus 70 – Chevrolet William Brack
86 Peterson Formula Cars Lola T192 – Chevrolet Gregg Peterson
88 Team Corsair Surtees TS5 – Chevrolet Elliott
Forbes-Robinson
94 Formula Racing Lola T300 – Chevrolet Eppie Wietzes
97 Tri-Tech Associates Lola T192 – Chevrolet Jim Moffatt
98 Cannon Racing March 725 – Rover John Cannon


Lots of corrections and additions have to be made -- some of which I did make, but still a few that I know (Olds rather than Rover for Cannon). Also, Even though I was at the race, I am having a brain cramp: I am almost 100% certain that the "Yarbrough" in question is LeeRoy -- my former neighbor no less. I know I saw him several times that season and I think one of those place was at RA. Damned if I can get a clear thought about it though!!!! Alzheimers is a wretched disease for someone so young.....

Anyhow, I am working on this....

Originally posted by Don Capps
Michael,

Try Gary Wayne at

The Watson Years
PO Box 111044
Carrollton, TX 75011-1044
USA

The price is $40.00 -- which includes shipping. However, for a overseas order, I would check with Gary first.

Hang On! Here is Gary's email address so you can contact him (I knew I had it somewhere...)

wayne.mail@verizon.net

Thanx Don! Anyone own the book already?