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What if: Minardi and Mugen Honda in 1995...


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#1 Zawed

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Posted 04 November 2001 - 09:53

What would have happened to Minardi if Briatore had'nt yanked the Mugen Honda engine from under Minardi's noses in 95 for Ligier?

I think they would have scored quite a few points, maybe not as much as Ligier did that year, but a few points finishes. Then they could built on that success and work thier way into midfield. What do you think? Would they still be on the bottom of the heap, or have achieved more?

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#2 Zawed

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 02:28

Does no one care about lil' old Minardi and what could have been...my feelings are hurt :cry: :cry:

#3 MattFoster

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 02:57

i didn't see this the first time.

I think Minardi would have got a few good results but no wins with the Mugen, Arrows/Footwork had it and it wasn't a race winner for them.

I think they may have scored a podium at say Monaco or Canada with luck.

#4 marglar

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 03:14

Originally posted by MattFoster
I think Minardi would have got a few good results but no wins with the Mugen, Arrows/Footwork had it and it wasn't a race winner for them.


The Footworks were powered by Harts in 95 i believe.

The Ligier team came in 5th that season and while i don't think that Minardi could have equalled that, i'm sure they could have beat Sauber for 7th. Badoer and Martini are very talented drivers IMO.

#5 MattFoster

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 03:31

I meant that Footwork/Arrows had them perviously and didn't do much with the engine.

#6 Zawed

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 10:12

The Mugens help save Arrows from near death after the disastrous 91 season. In 92 they scored a heap of points (for them I mean; I know 6 points is not a lot, but when you score 0 points the previous year its a heap of points) thanks to a good car, good engine and good driver (the late Michele Alboreto).

#7 MattFoster

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Posted 15 November 2001 - 21:11

Well i think you just gave the answer. Arrows and Minardi are very similar teams and Mugens only got Arrows from zero to 6 points. I suspect a similar result would have happened to Minardi with them.

#8 Bob Amblard

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 09:14

I remember that Minardi signed with a japanese driver in the end of the 90's, but I can't remember if it was because of the Mugen engine "project" (more than a project in fact) or because of the money that driver should have brought to the team.

Does someone can help me ?

Thanks.

#9 ivandjj

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 09:48

Originally posted by Bob Amblard
I remember that Minardi signed with a japanese driver in the end of the 90's, but I can't remember if it was because of the Mugen engine "project" (more than a project in fact) or because of the money that driver should have brought to the team.

Does someone can help me ?

Thanks.


i believe they signed nakano for cash only.

arrows had a decent budget in 92 & 93 which minardi in 95 didnt have. so they wouldnt have fared better than in 91 with ferrari engine. but mugen might have helped martinis and badoers f1 careers.

#10 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 12:06

I think it would've only been a short-term success. Ultimately, the lack of money & size of the outfit means there isn't the groundwork to lead to a massive shift in fortunes. Maybe they would have challenged the likes of Sauber for a few years, but by the late 1990's, I would expect that they would've performed how they actually did.

#11 Seanmac27

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 23:25

I think the point for Minardi in '95 would have been Any points over and above the 1 they scored would have helped the team out enormously, remembering that their drivers starting 95 were Pedro Lamy and Pierluigi Martini, 2 drivers that could handle an F1 car, and that then If they had been able to retain the Mugens, then over the next few years they did have some handy drivers.

#12 petefenelon

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 00:18

Minardi (or Toro Rosso, or whatever they want to call themselves), as long as they remain in Faenza and remain a local employer, will always remain at the back of the grid. They're a wonderful thing, a bunch of local boys made good - doesn't matter if the owner is Giancarlo Minardi, Beppe Lucchini and the Scuderia Italia boys, Flav, Gabriele Rumi, or Poorly Stoddart, as long as it's a team that's the equivalent of a non-league football team full of local boys it's never going to be more than what it is.

Minardi, over the years, has demonstrated its natural level -- it's a serious team, in that it's seen off the likes of Life and Coloni and Eurobrun and many others -- but it's a team that insists on going racing in a certain way and that way isn't one that's ever consistently going to lift you into the midfield. There have been times (1989-90) where rubber and changing rules meant Minardi occasionally looked very competitive, but on balance the only way to make Minardi more than an occasional points-scorer would involve removing everything that makes it Minardi and move it away from Faenza -- something that Dietrich Mateschitz seems keen to do.

Put it this way. It's only when a team's got a long association with a place that you refer to it synecdochically or metonymically -- Ferrari's "Maranello"; McLaren's "Woking"; Williams used to be "Didcot" and is now "Grove"; Minardi is just as much "Faenza" as any of those teams and it's hard to imagine them going away and still being Minardi...

Toro Rosso will be an interesting team as it grows up. But it won't be Minardi. In the same way that BAR wasn't the sheds at Ockham, something in F1 will die when Minardi move out of their hometown.

#13 subh

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 00:33

Another ‘What If’ really - - as I understand it, the Minardi team had several really good chassis in the latter half of the 1990s, but always had the slowest customer engines. Money was obviously the issue, but perhaps they could have humbled a few teams with a decent powerplant to use. I still think it was tragic that Luca Badoer’s car broke at the Nürburgring in 1999....

#14 angst

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 11:17

Originally posted by petefenelon
Minardi (or Toro Rosso, or whatever they want to call themselves), as long as they remain in Faenza and remain a local employer, will always remain at the back of the grid. They're a wonderful thing, a bunch of local boys made good - doesn't matter if the owner is Giancarlo Minardi, Beppe Lucchini and the Scuderia Italia boys, Flav, Gabriele Rumi, or Poorly Stoddart, as long as it's a team that's the equivalent of a non-league football team full of local boys it's never going to be more than what it is.

Minardi, over the years, has demonstrated its natural level -- it's a serious team, in that it's seen off the likes of Life and Coloni and Eurobrun and many others -- but it's a team that insists on going racing in a certain way and that way isn't one that's ever consistently going to lift you into the midfield. There have been times (1989-90) where rubber and changing rules meant Minardi occasionally looked very competitive, but on balance the only way to make Minardi more than an occasional points-scorer would involve removing everything that makes it Minardi and move it away from Faenza -- something that Dietrich Mateschitz seems keen to do.

Put it this way. It's only when a team's got a long association with a place that you refer to it synecdochically or metonymically -- Ferrari's "Maranello"; McLaren's "Woking"; Williams used to be "Didcot" and is now "Grove"; Minardi is just as much "Faenza" as any of those teams and it's hard to imagine them going away and still being Minardi...

Toro Rosso will be an interesting team as it grows up. But it won't be Minardi. In the same way that BAR wasn't the sheds at Ockham, something in F1 will die when Minardi move out of their hometown.


I understand what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree. Had F1 revenues been shared a little better, and had the excesses of recent years been better controlled then Minardi could, IMO, have been a pretty competitive team. When you consider the scales of budgetary differences (and what budgets we do know are most likely not the full story with the manufacturer backed teams), and the level of technology required, then Minardi have performed absolutely remarkebly.

For pound vs speed they must be one of the most efficient teams in F1 over the last five years or so. Even Jordan were on twice the Minardi budget these last couple of years. I think there is the basis of a very, very good team at Faenza.

#15 petefenelon

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 19:31

Originally posted by angst


I understand what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree. Had F1 revenues been shared a little better,
and had the excesses of recent years been better controlled then Minardi could, IMO, have been a pretty competitive team. When you consider the scales of budgetary differences (and what budgets we do know are most likely not the full story with the manufacturer backed teams), and the level of technology required, then Minardi have performed absolutely remarkebly.

For pound vs speed they must be one of the most efficient teams in F1 over the last five years or so. Even Jordan were on twice the Minardi budget these last couple of years. I think there is the basis of a very, very good team at Faenza.


I agree absolutely that Minardi have always punched way over their weight in F1 terms; I've had immense respect for them ever since they dropped the Motori Moderni engine. They've outlived 'lifestyle teams' like Jordan, no-hopers like Coloni and Eurobrun and Life, promising teams where it all went wrong like Onyx and Prost.... By living within their means for 20 years Minardi has survived quietly and mostly highly competently.

Minardi have always had bright and resourceful guys there. The problems are of course that once they've proved themselves to be bright and resourceful, the big chequebook vultures come hovering, and as has been observed, they're always near the back of the queue for engines (except when they had the Motori Moderni, in which case they were at the front of the queue for a bag of old spanners).

#16 angst

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 20:22

Originally posted by petefenelon


I agree absolutely that Minardi have always punched way over their weight in F1 terms; I've had immense respect for them ever since they dropped the Motori Moderni engine. They've outlived 'lifestyle teams' like Jordan, no-hopers like Coloni and Eurobrun and Life, promising teams where it all went wrong like Onyx and Prost.... By living within their means for 20 years Minardi has survived quietly and mostly highly competently.

Minardi have always had bright and resourceful guys there. The problems are of course that once they've proved themselves to be bright and resourceful, the big chequebook vultures come hovering, and as has been observed, they're always near the back of the queue for engines (except when they had the Motori Moderni, in which case they were at the front of the queue for a bag of old spanners).



"except when they had the Motori Moderni, in which case they were at the front of the queue for a bag of old spanners" - :lol: first in a queue of one I think.

What I was saying is, if there had been a larger slice of the 'pie' (If, for instance something more like 60% of F1's revenues went to the teams instead of just under 30%) available to Minardi then they would have been working with essentially double the budget they did have. They may not have been so far back in the queue for engines and their efficiency may have put them ahead of some of their better funded rivals.

#17 petefenelon

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 23:00

Originally posted by angst



"except when they had the Motori Moderni, in which case they were at the front of the queue for a bag of old spanners" - :lol: first in a queue of one I think.


AGS-Moderni?;) And weren't Coloni supposed to be using it at one point?


What I was saying is, if there had been a larger slice of the 'pie' (If, for instance something more like 60% of F1's revenues went to the teams instead of just under 30%) available to Minardi then they would have been working with essentially double the budget they did have. They may not have been so far back in the queue for engines and their efficiency may have put them ahead of some of their better funded rivals.


I'm inclined to agree to some extent, the other issue these days being how much aero work could they have afforded?

Ironically, I think had Minardi held on to 2008 in its current form the sort of rule changes that are being talked about might have played into its hands... at least for the first season or two.

#18 ghinzani

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 00:06

Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]

AGS-Moderni?;) And weren't Coloni supposed to be using it at one point?

Osella couldnt afford them for 86 either, altho he had built a car for them that was shown at Imola 86. Eventually the stuck the old Alfa in it. Also the propsed Ekstrom team said they would have MM mills after their first attempt with old Lola-Harts came to nowt.

#19 Vicuna

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 00:42

The combo could have lead to the career of Morbidelli being betther than it was.

Another lost Italian talent.

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#20 lustigson

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 18:58

Originally posted by MattFoster
I think Minardi would have got a few good results but no wins with the Mugen, Arrows/Footwork had it and it wasn't a race winner for them.

It was a race winner for Ligier, though, in 1996. In hindsight, that win belongs to Fisichella and Minardi. :cool:

#21 Psychoman

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 15:41

Originally posted by subh
Another ‘What If’ really - - as I understand it, the Minardi team had several really good chassis in the latter half of the 1990s, but always had the slowest customer engines. Money was obviously the issue, but perhaps they could have humbled a few teams with a decent powerplant to use. I still think it was tragic that Luca Badoer’s car broke at the Nürburgring in 1999....

He was in for a podium at that point, wasn't he? Woulda been something--the fact that the podium ended up being two Stewarts ( :cool: ) and a Prost was amazing enough, but a Stewart, Prost, and MINARDI... :up: :smoking:

#22 subh

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 12:25

I think he was on for fourth - but of course Badoer’s F1 career ended (unless he gets to race again) without any points on the board. A big waste of his talents. ···And why didn’t Ferrari put him in for Schumacher that year?