Reasently I discovered that 10 cars had retired in the first lap in Monaco in 1950.
What`s the story of this - at least I would expect- start crash?
1950 Monaco start accident
Started by
Walrus
, Nov 27 2001 13:29
42 replies to this topic
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#2
David McKinney
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Posted 27 November 2001 - 13:38
No. not the start, but at the chicane after the tunnel
#3
Vitesse2
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Posted 27 November 2001 - 13:51
As they came out of the tunnel, Farina spun on sea water thrown up by a high wind and was hit by Gonzalez. Chiron avoided this, but Fagioli stopped broadside on and Schell, Harrison, Manzon, de Graffenried, Rol, Trintignant and Rosier all piled in. Gonzalez got going again, but his fuel tank had split and the car caught fire! Only Rol was slightly hurt.
Fangio claimed he avoided the wreckage on lap 2 because when he emerged from the tunnel the crowd were looking down the track, not at him, the leader.
Fangio claimed he avoided the wreckage on lap 2 because when he emerged from the tunnel the crowd were looking down the track, not at him, the leader.
#4
Barry Boor
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Posted 27 November 2001 - 14:53
Although this shunt might have begun on sea water near the chicane, most of the cars ended up by the Tabac. All photos show the corner very clearly.
Fangio's avoidance was precipitated by his seeing only the backs of heads because everyone was looking towards the Tabac.
Fangio's avoidance was precipitated by his seeing only the backs of heads because everyone was looking towards the Tabac.
#5
Gary Davies
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Posted 27 November 2001 - 15:06
The actual "caramboulage" was down the road at the Tabac. Worth noting that Villoresi in the Ferrari 125, who according to David Hodges, was some 200 yards adrift of Fangio and Farina, "slipped past" the stricken Alfa before the others came boring in.
Like Vitesse, I am aware of Fangio's remark about noticing the crowd in high agitation but it's interesting to note that Hodges claims that he was alerted by "waved yellows flags" somewhere downstream from the tunnel, and Mike Lang reports that Fangio came to a complete stop. I suppose both claims are compatible with Fangio's remark. I hadn't been aware of the "complete halt" issue but looking at the pictures below, it seems quite possible that he would have stopped, even momentarily.
Anyone got anything further on what tipped Fangio off?
A piece of pedantry re. "... Trintignant and Rosier all piled in ..." Hodges asserts that Rosier actually stopped "twenty centimetres" short of Fagioli before Manzon's Simca clouted him into the pile up.
And of course, Gonzalez was also hurt. When his Maserati caught fire, he received some burns and was carted off to hospital.
Vanwall.
Like Vitesse, I am aware of Fangio's remark about noticing the crowd in high agitation but it's interesting to note that Hodges claims that he was alerted by "waved yellows flags" somewhere downstream from the tunnel, and Mike Lang reports that Fangio came to a complete stop. I suppose both claims are compatible with Fangio's remark. I hadn't been aware of the "complete halt" issue but looking at the pictures below, it seems quite possible that he would have stopped, even momentarily.
Anyone got anything further on what tipped Fangio off?
A piece of pedantry re. "... Trintignant and Rosier all piled in ..." Hodges asserts that Rosier actually stopped "twenty centimetres" short of Fagioli before Manzon's Simca clouted him into the pile up.
And of course, Gonzalez was also hurt. When his Maserati caught fire, he received some burns and was carted off to hospital.
Vanwall.
#6
fines
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#7
Kvadrat
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 09:37
I have three pictures of a moment just after the start of the race. Farina is between Fangio and Gonzalez and slightly behind them.
In four other available pictures of the field before the crash only one Alfa of two leaders is visible, and I can't identify it. Where did Farina take the lead? Do any pictures of the race between Beau Rivage and Bureau de Tabac exist?
In four other available pictures of the field before the crash only one Alfa of two leaders is visible, and I can't identify it. Where did Farina take the lead? Do any pictures of the race between Beau Rivage and Bureau de Tabac exist?
#8
Paul Taylor
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 13:16
There was a similar accident at the chicane in 1936, but I'm not so sure that was caused by sea water...
#9
Tim Murray
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 16:05
The 1936 accident was caused by Tadini's Alfa Romeo dropping generous quantities of oil onto a very wet track.
#10
Patrick Italiano
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 16:11
Originally posted by Kvadrat
I have three pictures of a moment just after the start of the race. Farina is between Fangio and Gonzalez and slightly behind them.
In four other available pictures of the field before the crash only one Alfa of two leaders is visible, and I can't identify it. Where did Farina take the lead? Do any pictures of the race between Beau Rivage and Bureau de Tabac exist?
As far as I remember, Fangio was ahead of Farina when the later spun, enabling Fangio to discover the disaster at the end of his next lap.
#11
Tim Murray
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 16:47
According to David Hodges in his book The Monaco Grand Prix:
The weather was fine but cool as Farina led the field up to Ste Dévote; on the climb to the Casino Fangio got ahead and the pair had pulled 200 yards away from Villoresi as the pair came down to the sea-front. But the Ferrari was second as the second lap started. Behind it at the Tabac left-hander car was piling into car in one of the most remarkable accidents in Grand Prix history. Spray carried by the wind had wet the quayside and Farina lost his Alfa on the exit from the corner, hitting the outside wall and spinning back athwart the road.
#12
FerrariV12
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 17:02
Interesting, I'd never known much about this accident other that Farina spun and took 8-9 cars with him. Do any photos of the field before the crash exist on the web?
#13
jarama
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 18:09
FerrariV12,
here you'll find two pictures of the starting grid and one of the start:
http://www.telefonic...lidas1950-0.htm
Have a look @ www.thef1.com, where you'll find the tremendous work on compiling pictures of the starting grids of an ever increasingly number of GP. Enter www.thef1.com, click "Foro Historia", then "Erase una vez... ¿te acuerdas?" anf finally "Salidas".
Carles.
here you'll find two pictures of the starting grid and one of the start:
http://www.telefonic...lidas1950-0.htm
Have a look @ www.thef1.com, where you'll find the tremendous work on compiling pictures of the starting grids of an ever increasingly number of GP. Enter www.thef1.com, click "Foro Historia", then "Erase una vez... ¿te acuerdas?" anf finally "Salidas".
Carles.
#14
JB Miltonian
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Posted 16 February 2005 - 21:29
This episode is covered in the "Fangio" movie. JMF tells the story that as he was walking the course the night before the race, he came upon an old photo of the earlier accident, and it stuck in his mind. He enacts the scene at the restaurant table, weaving his hand between his Bacardi and a Martini ashtray, to show how he managed to slip through the wrecked cars. Fanciful stuff.
#15
Kvadrat
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Posted 17 February 2005 - 02:12
There are many pictures of the accident in thread The Gilles Villeneuve Case.
I mentioned this picture: http://img53.exs.cx/...0monacoc5ps.jpg.
If Farina took the lead from the start, leading Alfa Romeo on the picture is Fangio's one.
And who is in leading Alfa Romeo in this picture?
http://www.jmfangio....co50fangio2.jpg
I think it's Fangio. For some reason Farina wasn't caught by photographers.
I mentioned this picture: http://img53.exs.cx/...0monacoc5ps.jpg.
If Farina took the lead from the start, leading Alfa Romeo on the picture is Fangio's one.
And who is in leading Alfa Romeo in this picture?
http://www.jmfangio....co50fangio2.jpg
I think it's Fangio. For some reason Farina wasn't caught by photographers.
#16
Tim Murray
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Posted 17 February 2005 - 10:37
There is a very similar (but different) photo in the Hodges book , captioned: "Fangio, chasing Farina, leads Gonzales and the rest of the field at the start of the first lap . . . ".Originally posted by Kvadrat
I think it's Fangio. For some reason Farina wasn't caught by photographers.
I do find it strange that if (as Hodges says) Fangio passed Farina on the climb to Casino, there are two photos taken on that climb that haven't got Farina in shot.
#17
Kvadrat
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Posted 18 February 2005 - 02:17
Can you scan and post those pictures? I'm also interested in defying other's drivers positions before the accident.
Fangio could pass Farina on the top of the climb. It's very interesting: what could cause Farina's slowing? Gear shift error? Temporary engine power loss?
Fangio could pass Farina on the top of the climb. It's very interesting: what could cause Farina's slowing? Gear shift error? Temporary engine power loss?
#18
rudi
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Posted 18 February 2005 - 05:43
Please stop all that.
Fangio took the lead at the start.
Farina made a poor start and was behind Gonzales and Villoresi at the first corner.
Before he spun, he passed Gonzales, not Villoresi (who had passed Gonzales before).
A report was made by Anthony Noghes and is quoted in Christian Moity's book on the
Monaco GP. Also the pile up chronology and the Hodge story of Rosier's stop (probably taken
by Noghes directly from the driver). Manzon is still alive and his own story has also been
published. Trintignant lived long enough to describe how Fangio came through the and
Villoresi how he had to slow down and lost a lot of time.
All start photos show evidence that Farina was left behind by Fangio.
Fangio took the lead at the start.
Farina made a poor start and was behind Gonzales and Villoresi at the first corner.
Before he spun, he passed Gonzales, not Villoresi (who had passed Gonzales before).
A report was made by Anthony Noghes and is quoted in Christian Moity's book on the
Monaco GP. Also the pile up chronology and the Hodge story of Rosier's stop (probably taken
by Noghes directly from the driver). Manzon is still alive and his own story has also been
published. Trintignant lived long enough to describe how Fangio came through the and
Villoresi how he had to slow down and lost a lot of time.
All start photos show evidence that Farina was left behind by Fangio.
rudi!
#21
Tim Murray
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Posted 18 February 2005 - 14:24
What a fascinating clip, Dennis. Its evidence looks pretty conclusive to me, so Hodges (and Sheldon) are wrong. My reading of the positions as they pass the camera is:
Fangio, Gonzalez, Farina, Villoresi, Chiron, Fagioli, Etancelin, Manzon and (possibly) Ascari.
The next part of the clip shows Gonzalez going through Casino followed by Villoresi and a car I can't identify, other than it doesn't look much like an Alfa to me. So where is Farina at this point?
Fangio, Gonzalez, Farina, Villoresi, Chiron, Fagioli, Etancelin, Manzon and (possibly) Ascari.
The next part of the clip shows Gonzalez going through Casino followed by Villoresi and a car I can't identify, other than it doesn't look much like an Alfa to me. So where is Farina at this point?
#22
Dennis David
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Posted 18 February 2005 - 15:00
Somebody has a lot better eyesight than I. Please accept my apologies for going OT but I can't help but share this clip from an earlier race ...
Monaco GP 1936
Monaco GP 1936
#23
rudi
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Posted 18 February 2005 - 15:50
Tim, the second part was filmed later during the race, in the Maserati is Chiron , than
Villoresi and the Talbot of Etancelin.
Villoresi and the Talbot of Etancelin.
#24
Tim Murray
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Posted 18 February 2005 - 18:38
Thanks, Rudi, that makes sense, then. I was confused by that bit of the clip coming before the crash sequence, and assumed that the scenes were in chronological order.
#25
Kvadrat
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Posted 05 March 2005 - 10:04
Thank you, rudi, your comment was very useful. All sources I saw before said Farina led from start and Fangio passed hem before the crash. And I always wondered what was that extra Alfa Romeo looking car in pictures. It just was Farina!
Now question on the first avaylable picture of the crash. Here's quote fron thread The Gilles Villeneuve Case
Drivers passing crash in the first picture are Sommer and Etancelin. Bira was missed by photographer, and next driver to avoid the crash was Claes (in the second picture). He's passing Rol's Maserati, which was last car in chain of ones crashed one into each other: Rosier, de Graffenried, Trintignant, Harrison and Rol.
Is it correct that in the first picture only Rosier is behind Fagioli's car? Who's behind Etancelin? Bira, who was next at lap finish, or de Graffenried, who was next at crashed chain?
Also we can see Manzon and Schell behind both Alfas. Seems that Schell is already there in the first picture. So he really did crashed before de Graffenried did. Starting from the back of the grid, how could he manage to pass 7 or 8 cars to crash before them?
Now question on the first avaylable picture of the crash. Here's quote fron thread The Gilles Villeneuve Case
Originally posted by fines
Ok guys, here comes:
(This picture and the following from this angle are credited to Alfa Romeo and can be found in Jean-Paul Delsaux' "1950 - The Year, The Races", p59) The crash has just happened, and Farina is about to climb out. Fagioli is hit broadside by Rosier, while Sommer just nips through.
The rest piles in while Fagioli jumps out.
Drivers passing crash in the first picture are Sommer and Etancelin. Bira was missed by photographer, and next driver to avoid the crash was Claes (in the second picture). He's passing Rol's Maserati, which was last car in chain of ones crashed one into each other: Rosier, de Graffenried, Trintignant, Harrison and Rol.
Is it correct that in the first picture only Rosier is behind Fagioli's car? Who's behind Etancelin? Bira, who was next at lap finish, or de Graffenried, who was next at crashed chain?
Also we can see Manzon and Schell behind both Alfas. Seems that Schell is already there in the first picture. So he really did crashed before de Graffenried did. Starting from the back of the grid, how could he manage to pass 7 or 8 cars to crash before them?
#26
Gary Davies
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Posted 19 September 2005 - 11:31
I can't imagine there's a lot more light to be shed on this story but I recently read Gerald Donaldson's "FANGIO" and it seems to provide an insight into Fangio's actions leading up to his arrival at the scene. In particular, I have read here and elsewhere various levels of scepticism about his prescience or otherwise.
Donaldson: "The fifteen drivers entered in the 1950 Grand Prix were invited to a reception at the Monaco Automobile Club's headquarters, where Juan entertained himself by examining photograph albums of past events, many of which featured accidents. For the 1936 race, Juan found a photo showing a tangle of wrecked cars, among them two Mercedes-Benzes, a Maserati and an Alfa Romeo driven by his new team-mate, Farina. Studying the shot in detail, Juan came to the conclusion that the crash had probably occurred because one of the cars had spun across the track and stalled in the middle of a sharp corner. Because the closely following drivers had been unable to see over the stone walls that lined the track, they had ploughed into the stationary vehicle. Perhaps, Juan thought, they had been too preoccupied to take note of the flags that must have been waved by the track marshals. Anyway, he concluded, it would be important to be prepared for such emergencies, and he filed the information away in a memory bank in which he had already deposited many cautionary notes about Monaco's myriad hazards."
And a couple of pages later: "As Juan sped through the harbour chicane, he caught a glimpse of yellow flags waved in the distance. 'I could detect agitation among the spectators,' he recalled. 'They were not looking at me leading the race but were looking the other way.' In a flash Juan remembered the photo of the 1936 accident and immediately applied the brakes while raising his hand to warn his pursuers of likely danger ahead.
"At the crash site, - where, miraculously, no one had been hurt - the route was still blocked by a confusion of sidelined cars that frantic track marshals and course workers were having difficulty clearing aside. Juan took matters into his own hands. Manoeuvering the Alfetta alongside one of the trapped cars, he reached out and managed to push it aside far enough the create a gap through which he could ease his car."
Donaldson: "The fifteen drivers entered in the 1950 Grand Prix were invited to a reception at the Monaco Automobile Club's headquarters, where Juan entertained himself by examining photograph albums of past events, many of which featured accidents. For the 1936 race, Juan found a photo showing a tangle of wrecked cars, among them two Mercedes-Benzes, a Maserati and an Alfa Romeo driven by his new team-mate, Farina. Studying the shot in detail, Juan came to the conclusion that the crash had probably occurred because one of the cars had spun across the track and stalled in the middle of a sharp corner. Because the closely following drivers had been unable to see over the stone walls that lined the track, they had ploughed into the stationary vehicle. Perhaps, Juan thought, they had been too preoccupied to take note of the flags that must have been waved by the track marshals. Anyway, he concluded, it would be important to be prepared for such emergencies, and he filed the information away in a memory bank in which he had already deposited many cautionary notes about Monaco's myriad hazards."
And a couple of pages later: "As Juan sped through the harbour chicane, he caught a glimpse of yellow flags waved in the distance. 'I could detect agitation among the spectators,' he recalled. 'They were not looking at me leading the race but were looking the other way.' In a flash Juan remembered the photo of the 1936 accident and immediately applied the brakes while raising his hand to warn his pursuers of likely danger ahead.
"At the crash site, - where, miraculously, no one had been hurt - the route was still blocked by a confusion of sidelined cars that frantic track marshals and course workers were having difficulty clearing aside. Juan took matters into his own hands. Manoeuvering the Alfetta alongside one of the trapped cars, he reached out and managed to push it aside far enough the create a gap through which he could ease his car."
#27
fines
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 13:55
I wonder why this nonsense gets repeated over and over again! It's typical Fangio bla-bla, one of the reasons I never liked the man.
Originally posted by fines on another thread - Feb10, 2001
... already the leaders appear on their second lap. Maybe Fangio is too busy looking at the spectators to notice the man with the flag?
#28
David McKinney
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 14:55
But wasn't the accident on the first lap, Michael?
#29
fines
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 15:04
Yes, that's why we're talking about the second lap.
#30
Tomas Karlsson
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 15:05
Yes, behind Fangio....
#31
Ray Bell
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Posted 24 September 2005 - 20:55
I'm sorry to read that your appreciation of Fangio is so lessened by what's written about this incident, Fee-nes...
Is there anything we can do to help you restore order in your thoughts that you might properly recognise his greatness... a greatness that always helps create the 'legend' stuff you obviously don't like?
Is there anything we can do to help you restore order in your thoughts that you might properly recognise his greatness... a greatness that always helps create the 'legend' stuff you obviously don't like?
#32
karlcars
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Posted 27 September 2005 - 08:39
Interesting stuff, as usual!
This is the way I captioned the photos of his incident in my book about Fangio:
Fangio and Farina rocketed away from their front-row starting slots, the Argentine gaining the advantage on the first lap. On his second lap Fangio burst out of the tunnel into the sunlight and along the quay toward the sharp left at the tobacconist’s shop. Glancing up at the crowd overlooking the quay the race leader noticed something odd: they weren’t looking at him! His thoughts flashed back to a day earlier when he’d been looking through a photo album at the Monaco Auto Club. He’d seen pictures of the 1936 race in which some cars had skidded and crashed on just the quay he was now approaching at 100 miles per hour.
Fangio braked hard to a stop before the left turn. Around it, previously hidden from his view by the balustrades, were nine crashed Grand Prix cars. On his first lap Nino Farina had skidded on a freshly-wetted surface and eight others following him had crashed into him and each other, fortunately without great personal injury. The road was blocked, but Juan spotted a chance. If one car could be moved he could get by. He drove up to it and pushed its tyre by hand, rolling it enough to clear space for his Alfa. From that manoeuvre it was a clear run to a victorious finish
This is the way I captioned the photos of his incident in my book about Fangio:
Fangio and Farina rocketed away from their front-row starting slots, the Argentine gaining the advantage on the first lap. On his second lap Fangio burst out of the tunnel into the sunlight and along the quay toward the sharp left at the tobacconist’s shop. Glancing up at the crowd overlooking the quay the race leader noticed something odd: they weren’t looking at him! His thoughts flashed back to a day earlier when he’d been looking through a photo album at the Monaco Auto Club. He’d seen pictures of the 1936 race in which some cars had skidded and crashed on just the quay he was now approaching at 100 miles per hour.
Fangio braked hard to a stop before the left turn. Around it, previously hidden from his view by the balustrades, were nine crashed Grand Prix cars. On his first lap Nino Farina had skidded on a freshly-wetted surface and eight others following him had crashed into him and each other, fortunately without great personal injury. The road was blocked, but Juan spotted a chance. If one car could be moved he could get by. He drove up to it and pushed its tyre by hand, rolling it enough to clear space for his Alfa. From that manoeuvre it was a clear run to a victorious finish
#33
fines
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Posted 15 October 2005 - 13:25
Raaay, I appreciate Fangio as a driver, one if not the greatest of all times, no need for restoration!;) What I fail to appreciate is Fangio, the man, and I don't think you can change that. Same for Moss, Schumacher, Villeneuve... all great drivers, but below-par personalities imho.Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm sorry to read that your appreciation of Fangio is so lessened by what's written about this incident, Fee-nes...
Is there anything we can do to help you restore order in your thoughts that you might properly recognise his greatness... a greatness that always helps create the 'legend' stuff you obviously don't like?
#34
Doug Nye
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Posted 15 October 2005 - 13:50
Originally posted by fines
What I fail to appreciate is Fangio, the man, and I don't think you can change that.
Sorry to read this. I can only say that in my too-brief experience JMF entirely lived up to his billing as a really extraordinarily impressive, engaging, entirely luminous personality...a truly startling human being.
He was certainly not an over-humble poseur celebrating his own celebrity and he definitely demonstrated an entirely steely core only just beneath the surface even into his 80s. He was plainly nobody's push-over, nor ever had been. Yet as Moss has put it, The Old Boy had such genuine charm, such genuine warmth and openness and so many absolutely admirable character facets, it hurt...because most of us exhibit so few of them.
The other standard-setting racing personality whose character has come closest to matching - and surpassing - JMF's was in my view undoubtedly Clark.
DCN
#35
Kvadrat
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Posted 24 May 2006 - 03:59
This is cropped version of big picture. Does anyone have full version?
#36
Barry Boor
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Posted 29 March 2008 - 22:55
Prompted by some discussion about Gordinis, I have dredged up this thread from two years ago in order to ask a pretty silly question about the starting grid.
It is most odd.... Fangio is on pole - fair enough - 1.50'2 is faster than anyone else.
BUT, on the front row is Gonzales with 1.57'3; 6 drivers with faster times are behind him.
THEN, row 5 has Manzon 2.04'0; de Graffenried 2.00'7 and Trintignant 2.19'4. There are 5 drivers faster than Trint behind him.
There is a note to say that it was the fastest time in the first of 2 sessions that was used to set grid.... I'm afraid this tired old brain cannot grasp what that actually means.
As an aside, I wonder if, had the grid been decided in the standard way, i.e. fastest down to slowest, maybe the race would not have lost over half its combatants on lap 1. Just speculation.
It is most odd.... Fangio is on pole - fair enough - 1.50'2 is faster than anyone else.
BUT, on the front row is Gonzales with 1.57'3; 6 drivers with faster times are behind him.
THEN, row 5 has Manzon 2.04'0; de Graffenried 2.00'7 and Trintignant 2.19'4. There are 5 drivers faster than Trint behind him.
There is a note to say that it was the fastest time in the first of 2 sessions that was used to set grid.... I'm afraid this tired old brain cannot grasp what that actually means.
As an aside, I wonder if, had the grid been decided in the standard way, i.e. fastest down to slowest, maybe the race would not have lost over half its combatants on lap 1. Just speculation.
#37
Vitesse2
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Posted 29 March 2008 - 23:19
The AC de Monaco always set their own rules, Barry! They had done this in 1948 as well: the fastest five from Thursday practice made up the first two rows and then they started again on Saturday (no Friday practice in Monaco, of course). I have a little book on the Monaco GP, published by Fiat in 1979, which puts it this way:
Comme en 1948, les temps réalisés lors de la première séance sont toujours prioritaires, décision qui une fois de plus provoquera quelques anomalies sinon quelques injustices.
#38
Ray Bell
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Posted 30 March 2008 - 02:07
Similar to the Indy qualifying...
The first weekend snares the front row, irrespective of what happens on the second, IIRC.
The first weekend snares the front row, irrespective of what happens on the second, IIRC.
#39
Barry Boor
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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:02
O.K, Vit, but that still doesn't make any sense because if the first 5 from Thursday make the first 2 rows, why is the 3rd place man, Gonzales, 3 seconds slower than the 4th and 5th?
Or is it just a misprint from Darren's site? Where are those MotorSport archives????
Or is it just a misprint from Darren's site? Where are those MotorSport archives????
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#40
fines
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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:57
Without wanting to go and check, I believe Fagioli (and perhaps a few others) bettered their time from the first session on Saturday, while González apparently didn't. Just one more reminder that starting position and qualifying position are not necessarily the same...
#42
fines
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Posted 30 March 2008 - 09:23
Hmm... I distinctly recall that Fagioli was 2nd fastest, a time of 1'51-something, so that can't be right either...
#43
Vitesse2
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Posted 30 March 2008 - 13:47
As Ray said: comme Indianapolis! Encore en français:
Chez Alfa, ou Fangio et Farina se sont mis dès le premier jour a l'abri, on objecte qu'avec un tour en 1'51"7 Fagioli méritait lui-aussi la seconde place sur la grille!
