A few BRP questions

After reading 8W game about Innes in BRP, I am left with few questions I'd like to ask you...

1. Why were they refused by Cooper (already being customers since '58)? Did it have anything to do with parting company with Yeoman Credit Ltd. (whose team bought the Coopers that season)?

2. After purchasing Lotus cars, Robinson made 1/63 (BTW, what's its correct designation- 1/63 or 63/1? both are used in 8W); how good was the car? Second thing that puzzles me is Stirling's involvement with the team, and why were they refused membership in FOCA and were given very could shoulder when they asked that their cars be inspected to show they deserve it? Why were the votes the way they were (Lotus and Ferrari nay, Cooper and Brabham yea)?

3. What became of Tony Robinson?

4. Slightly OT, but I am wondering about Cooper a bit... First there was Ferguson business, which seemed a bit out of character for the man, then the refusal of BRP order, and change of heart to vote for them for admission to FOCA... Can anyone shed more light on the matter (although I suspect the last decision could've had something to do with Stirling's involvement; he did clinch him WCC and win the first WDC race)?

Thanks in advance.

This is an entirely new language for me - BTW I can handle,but what on earth is '8W'?

DCN

http://8w.forix.com/

It's a bit like a light version of your Alien Craft pic...;)

Doug, it's a site run by Racer.Demon and Felix (among others), which for some time run quizzes; they'd post pictures from GPs (few from pre-war era, '50, '60, &c) and people would have to guess who/where/what/why &c, just from the photo. Many very knowledgeable people participated (too many to list) and reading through the posted answers is a real treat for un-experts like me (and sometimes for real experts as well). Take a look :

http://8w.forix.com/home.html

But before You get entangled in the whole thing, here's the link to aforementioned game: Millenium Game. And in case You have trouble with abbreviations some people use (like, IIRC, BTW, AFAIK, &c), You might find this little file useful.

Thank you - I'm in enough trouble with this website - I daren't venture into any others...DCN

I hadn't heard that Cooper refused BRP's order in 1961. It is possible that Cooper's capacity to build new cars was fully taken up with the works cars and those for Yeoman Credit, not to mention the Indianapolis programme. It is also possible that Yeoman Credit's agreement with cooper restricted the number of cars they could sell. I think it likely that by 1961 a team, particularly one with Moss conections, would look first to Lotus. Autosport for December 2nd 1960 said that it was more than likely that BRP would use a Lola F1 car!

I believe that the problem that prevented BRP joining FOCA was the resemblance of their car to the Lotus. The suspension arms were taken from one of the team's Lotus 24s.

Originally posted by Doug Nye
This is an entirely new language for me - BTW I can handle, but what on earth is '8W'?

DCN

Looked at it twice or so... take it from me Doug (and we share our vocation...), you could lose all your earning power if you delved into that!

....like you, I have enough trouble with Atlas F1....

....then again, I spend a bit of time in the Paddock Club!....

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Looked at it twice or so... take it from me Doug (and we share our vocation...), you could lose all your earning power if you delved into that!

At a rough estimate I spent about 80 hours researching and compiling my Summer 2001 entry - dunno about Marc and Alessandro ....

Originally posted by Ray Bell

....like you, I have enough trouble with Atlas F1....

....then again, I spend a bit of time in the Paddock Club!....

Understatement, Ray? How unlike you ....

Good question Wolf. I think Roger Clark is probably real close. There was concern about whether of not Lotus could build quality cars during the 1960 season so BRPy must not have had a choice. I know for the 1962 season, BRP considered switching from Louts due to concerns about their flimsy desigins. Colin Chapman had a reputation even then as someone who would opt for performance over safety.

Posted in 8W by Felix (I guess 'twas him, to be honest) :

So here came the end of the 1962 season, BRP had again lost its sponsor, and had to rethink its strategy. With Lotus having made clear that nobody but the works was going to take delivery of the monocoque Lotus 25 (that had given Clark second place in the '62 championship and was going to help him win the '63 title), the people at BRP decided that Tony Robinson should become a designer. Hence the BRP 1/63 car was born, a car that has always been accused of actually being a clone of the Lotus 24. Some deeper investigation proves that this was not the case, but it looks like it's a bit too late to restore that view now.
...
The bad news for BRP was that, incredibly, when they submitted their application to join the FOCA, it was rejected! The reason given was that BRP did not manufacture enough of their own components to qualify as constructors. It was inaccurate, but with just Cooper and Brabham on their side, there was not a lot BRP could do. Ferrari and Lotus were against, and BRM eventually agreed with their view. In a very last and desperate move, the BRP team offered their cars for inspection after the Mexican Grand Prix 1964. It is reported that nobody from the Association even bothered to come to see them.

I think there's a degree of tosh being talked about all this, but justifiably so after so many decades in which the Formula 1 Constructors' Association has wielded such power and clout under Bernie Ecclestone's stewardship. Andrew Ferguson of Team Lotus really created the F1CA - except today they call 'Formula 1' 'Formula One' so it becomes 'FOCA' which looks infinitely more polite in Italian.

The F1CA negotiated regularised start, prize and travel monies with GP organisers really from 1962-63ish forwards. They participated in The London Agreement and The Paris Agreement on financial terms, and constructors - as in Lotus, BRM, Cooper and newcomer Brabham - had more clout than private entrants, which included BRP. 'Proper' constructors like Scirocco and ATS didn't get a look in...too new on the block. The UDT-Laystall team - BRP managed - thought it was buying 'the latest' Lotuses when it ordered Type 24s with V8 engines for 1962. When Innes Ireland saw the Team Lotus van disgorge the first molnocoque Type 25 at Zandvoort he said to Colin Chapman "Fantastic - when do we get ours" and was driven demented by the answer "Oh we're not selling these to customers Innes - it's only a very experimental 1963 prototype".

BRP determined to match the monocoque technology - Tony Robinson and his chaps did a good job of tailoring it to pick up Type 24 corners - but when it came to cutting the financial cake the old established 'proper' constructors (by 1963-64 standards) didn't see why a team of tub-copiers should match their take.

I'm sure there's more to it than the above - but I think that's the bare bones of it. If there was any conspiracy or enmity or bad feeling it was minimal indeed - but with the UDT/BRP management never forget there were a few elderly, long-travelled pigeons coming home to roost...

Now - is the Oz GP on telly yet???

DCN

Cor! A 4 year old thread returns....

In Doug's Cooper book there are 2 pictures of the start of the Glover Trophy race at Goodwood in 1958. In both of them a very light Cooper can be seen. It is described as a British Racing Partnership entry, driven by Tommy Bridger (whatever happened to he?)

In the picture that is looking straight at the car I am sure I can detect a white circle on the nose with the number in it. This leads me to think that the extremely light green colour that was on the BRP cars in later years was present then.

Or am I making incorrect assumptions?

Can't answer that, Barry
All the pictures of the 1958 BRP F2 Cooper, with either Lewis-Evans or Bridger at the helm, show a very light-coloured car. To me it looks lighter than the famous BRP green, possibly even white, but then I never saw the car in the flesh

Tommy Bridger was a good 500cc Formula 3 driver who graduated to grand prix cars but I seem to remember Ken Gregory telling me that Tommy crashed the first BRP car he let him drive and also crashed the last BRP car he let him drive. Bridger and Peter Blond raced the Tojeiro-Climax at Le Mans and Tommy also raced a Borgward Isabella in saloon car events.
I last saw him about fifteen years ago in Scotland where he had moved. We talked about some of the old days - he and I did basic training in the RAF at Compton Bassett during our National Service - but he did not look a well man and I believe he died not long afterwards.

'3. What became of Tony Robinson?'
He now presents the archeaological programme 'Time Team' on Channel 4.

Autosport described the car as light green.

Just as well, Roger, mine's already sprayed! Light green, I might add.

Thanks Roger
It's the logical answer (in spite of my earlier musings)

Gary C

"He now presents Time Team on BBC"......Rubbish, wrong guy.

Tony Robinson lives in London is in reasonable form and just moved house. He will probably be at Silverstone for the Silverstone Classic meeting in July.

Maybe you have seen this...a couple of photos at LAT with the Bridger car...I plead colourblindness in this case...whatever you think!

http://www.latphoto....how=12&x=29&y=5

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

I must confess that I grabbed the wrong end of the stick after reading Graham's comment attributed to Ken Gregory. I imagined that what he was saying was that he gave Tommy Bridger a car - he crashed it - and he never gave him another one; i.e. it was both the first AND last car he gave him.

In case anyone else assumed the same as me, I had a brief scan through the 1958 race results and it appears that between the 2 crashes, at Goodwood and Casablanca, there was a 2nd place finish behind Ian Burgess at Crystal Palace.

However, it must be said that when the car was driven by Stuart Lewis-Evans, as it was quite often that year, it achieved somewhat better results.

Thanks for the LAT link Mr. Announcer. I don't want to get started on the white/pale green kick again but I know that BRPea green was very, very light.

Bridger was the second driver for BRP in 1958.Drove when Lewis-Evans was otherwise occupied.Sadly both their careers seem to have ended at Casablanca.

'"He now presents Time Team on BBC"......Rubbish, wrong guy.'
Yes, that's right. 'Time Team' is on Channel 4, not the BBC.
Apologies Graham, I DO know who Tony Robinson is (BOTH of them!!), I just couldn't resist it !!

I was reading Motor Sport's report of the 1962 German GP last night (as you do) and there was a throw-away line from DSJ to the effect that although the organisers would have liked UDT drivers Innes Ireland and Masten Gregory to compete, they wanted nothing to do with Ken Gregory - hence the non-appearance of the UDT cars. Now the organisers accepted anything remotely resembling an F1 car in that year's German GP, so why the animus towards Gregory and the UDT cars - which were usually at the front end of the grid. No mention of a starting money dispute. Any ideas?

What an interesting question!

The relevant Sheldon 'Black Book' cites a starting money dispute. In Totally Fearless Joe Fan says:

The UDT team once again did not travel to the Nurburgring for the German Grand Prix on August 5th because their entry was refused for unknown reasons.

The 'once again' presumably refers to the team's non-appearance at that year's 1000 km race, which is mentioned a few pages earlier. Maybe this was where the ill-feeling started?

I suspect that any ill feeling went back to the 1961 Grand Prix, when UDT-Laystall entered but did not turn up. Sheldon says they were engaged in an American race, but I have been unable to find what it was. They did, of course, race at Brands Hatch the following day. Their drivers at Brands included Masten Gregory and you might expect him to be involved if they entered a race in America.

They had Lotus 19s at that time, didn't they?

Maybe tracking down what they were doing would help...

As far as I can see, the UDT-Laystall Lotus 19s didn't race in North America between 24 June and 30 September

With the transport of the time it is unlikely that anyone could have been at Brands and America on the same weekend? I think that BRP and several other teams used the same cars for F1 and ICF just changing the engines.I guess Gregory decided that getting back from the Nurburgring and changing engines overnight was not practical?

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I suspect that any ill feeling went back to the 1961 Grand Prix, when UDT-Laystall entered but did not turn up.

Did they actually enter? They don't appear on the entry lists shown in Sheldon and The Formula One Record Book. Gregory was entered by Camoradi but didn't appear as by then he'd left the team to join BRP, his first race for them being the Brands ICF race. If BRP didn't actually enter the '61 German GP, it seems a little harsh for the organisers to take exception to them the following year.

Hang on, there. Aren't U.D.T and B.R.P one and the same?

I thought the name change came about when U.D.T pulled its sponsorship and the team returned to being B.R.P as it was in 1959 when Stirling drove the B.R.M (amongst other things).

Sorry Barry, I've been using the names interchangeably, when perhaps I shouldn't.

(I do have this strange aversion to referring to teams (or cars) by the names of their sponsors.)

Moi aussi
The team was called UDT-Laystall in 1961, and most contemporary reports would have used that name rather than BRP

Hello BRP writers ,I wonder if any of you now about their transporter or support car???
I know of their UDT transporter in 1962 but what was before and what after, did they continue till the end in 1964 with that Commer and was it not the one that J.A.Pearce had in 1966 that burned???And if they had this Commer in 64 was it sold before the ItalinGP(6/9)???because on the 3(8 Brands Guards Tr. John Mecom had a Commer looking just like theUDT??????????????
Kind regards , Bjørn

3. What became of Tony Robinson?

As far as I understand it, Tony is still in good nick & still keeps links with the sport. But does anyone know a little more about him? I have him down as a Londoner, and must be around 80 years old by now?

Anyone know any more about this very talented, yet very under-rated chap?

Peter Bryant spent some time with Tony during his visit to The Gp at Silverstone this year and found him in good form .
Merv Therriault and I had a cup of tea with him 3 years ago in the BRDC clubhouse at the GP . I was very pleased when Tony said how much he admired the late Stan Ellsworth because I too had fond memories of Stan during his short stay at Lotus in the late '50s . Coming from a very organised team (Vanwall) , Stan found Lotus a little lacking in organisation at that time .
Tony agreed that as indicated in Alf Francis' book , Stan ,Alf and Tony himself were from an era that produced proper mechanics (as opposed to "engineers" !

taking this thread off tangentially - i have often wondered what the background was to the entry of a brp - brm for richie ginther in the non championship south african gp in 1966 - under the S.M.A.R.T banner i believe, which leads directly to the synergy between the 'family' team - BRP - and the Stirling Moss team - SMART. i also seem to recall a quote from Moss at the time that he was impressed with the power delivered by the (2 litre) brm engine- am i reading too much into this in wondering if this imples he had sampled the car before it raced in the GP? Am i remembering this correctly - do i read into it that Moss tested a current spec GP car 2 1/2 years after official retirement, ie at about the time that he has since been quoted as saying that he felt that his full powers of concentration etc had returned to him. Is there a bit more to this than appears on the surface?

or shall i get me coat...

peter

In the meantime Tony Robinson is a member here . He allready has posted on the transporter thread. Prhaps some of the unanswered questions here now could be up for renewal ?

Tony Robinson was interviewed about the 1963 BRP-BRM in the November/December 2007 issue of "Vintage Racecar" magazine. Here is part of that interview:

I thought it was time we looked at building our own car. If we were to do that it would have to be a monocoque car, not tubular. We had to keep up with the new trend. A meeting was convened at Papa Moss' dental surgery, in the Strand. [Actualy on Chandos Place, behind St Martin-in-the-Fields church.] I'm not a pen and paper man; just practical. I'm a builder. During the course of the season I kept a look out at how the Lotus 25 was constructed. I began to realize it wasn't too difficult to do. I made up a small section, a cross-section of the tub about 10 inches wide, and took it along to the meeting.

"We could use the suspension parts of the 24's; we had plenty of spares. We could simulate a monocoque chassis, in the style of the 25. It was to use a known factor rather than a direct copy. The suspension, wheels, and other parts were all known to us, too. I didn't make any detailed drawings of the car, just a few sketches to help me. My advantage was having a Lotus 24. I designed our first BRP around that, but using monocoque technology. I used the 24 shape to help with pick-up points for suspension and the like, the front bulkhead and driver positions.

"To manufacture the tub, I needed a good bunch of blokes around me, who were pretty good. I had Jim Chapman and George Woodward (both of whom went to Lola after the demise of BRP), Peter Downing (who went on to power-boat racing), Stan Collier (who went on to RALT), an apprentice named Bruce McIntosh (later responsible for much of McLaren's 'F1' road car, the Mercedes SLR McLaren, etc., before joining Gordon Murray as Head of Engineering and he additionally serves as FIA's Technical Representative for the GP2 racing series.), and Rod Gueran (who had previously served in the RAF as an airframe fitter). A good bunch of lads!

Source: http://www.britishra...DelBene-BRP.htm

taking this thread off tangentially - i have often wondered what the background was to the entry of a brp - brm for richie ginther in the non championship south african gp in 1966 - under the S.M.A.R.T banner i believe, which leads directly to the synergy between the 'family' team - BRP - and the Stirling Moss team - SMART. i also seem to recall a quote from Moss at the time that he was impressed with the power delivered by the (2 litre) brm engine- am i reading too much into this in wondering if this imples he had sampled the car before it raced in the GP? Am i remembering this correctly - do i read into it that Moss tested a current spec GP car 2 1/2 years after official retirement, ie at about the time that he has since been quoted as saying that he felt that his full powers of concentration etc had returned to him. Is there a bit more to this than appears on the surface?

or shall i get me coat...

peter

Before you get your coat, there was another partial return: In 1965 Stirling Moss drove in the Safari with Eric carlsson. The car retired in, shall we say, strange circumstances with the official story and countless contradictory rumours.

But we are wandering away from BRP.

We should understand that the BRP was essentially a management company, started by Ken Gregory and Alfred Moss. Stirling was a driver for them, but possibly not as often as they would have liked. S.M.A.R.T. was a separate operation, although, confusingly, used similar racing colours - mint green. The connection is obvious.

It is my opinion, after a fair amount of homework, that the BRP as a constructor was viewed as being dangerous because of the simple fact that as a management company they had sponsorship and indeed had had it since inception. Thus, they had buying power for driving talent which others could not match. And we should not forget that driving talent carried a higher premium then.

As for the Lotus 'clone' issue, Tony was not and is not a copyist and I came away from our conversation with the impression that he was rightly offended by the suggestion that he was. I think he was right. He had, after all, come up the hard way via HWM and an association with Alf Francis. There is no bullshit about Tony.

Gregory's personal (and reputational) position had been weakened at the time by the unhappy coincidence of events which had recently taken place at another business, which involved the managing director and BRP's sponsors, not to mention the then Mrs. Gregory. All very awkward, as you may imagine. The chap involved was Robert Thornton. This may be the same bloke who had something to do with Gordon Keeble later on, but I can't be sure.

So I think it looks a bit like that, really. When I wrote about it (1997), feelings were still running high and, in the light of my subsequent investigations, limited though they were, I can quite see why.

The BRP F1 effort was a very good car, which is all we need to know. The stretched version, the 1965 Indianapolis car, was probably even better. In the hands of Masten Gregory, it nearly did the business. But no-one remembers that...

Before you get your coat, there was another partial return: In 1965 Stirling Moss drove in the Safari with Eric carlsson. The car retired in, shall we say, strange circumstances with the official story and countless contradictory rumours.

But we are wandering away from BRP.

i'm not sure i've still got the same coat 4 1/2 years after posting.

i think there was another safari run in 1968? and an aborted entry in '63 or '64.

you cant help making comparisons with Robert Kubica..

maybe i was reading too much into the original quote, but it did make it sound very much like Stirling had sampled the engine for himself. Probably just the 'boss' shaking the car down? i just find it odd that its never been mentioned since then except for this one instance..

Peter

Looking in some of my favourite books from time to time recently I happened to read a little bit deeeper into BRP stories, which leave to me the impression, that somehow they seem to have been like a black sheep. And this not only because they were not allowed membership in the F1CA, but already before. Now reading this thread seems to confirm my suspicion, that there must have been something, without finding some really satisfying explanation for this 'something'. As the discussions are some years old maybe in the meantime somebody could have got some newer insights?

 

To elaborate about this, a brief recapitulation of the team´s history. To my understanding it was founded by Ken Gregory and Alfred Moss around 1957 as kind of a 'backup' for Stirling Moss for occasions when he did not have a works entry somewhere. Besides that it was run mainly as a Formula 2 team until 1959. In 1960 with Yeoman sponsorship they progressed into a full-season 'customer' Formula 1 team with Coopers. Interestingly Stirling Moss preferred to carry on with Walker, but BRP/Yeoman were present at every Grand Prix besides Argentina (probably because of the distance) and Italy, where there was the boycott of all the British teams. Noteably BRP were present at Zandvoort (and with three entries!), while the German GP was for Formula 2 that year. The reason for my last remarks is, because in the following years BRP seem to have got problems in particular with the organizers of these two events. The Dutch seem to have been notorious to accept only entries they had explicitely 'invited', while the Germans seem to have had no comprehensive policy at all, admitting real no-hopers sometimes and refusing well-established teams and drivers on other occasions. The Belgians and French seem to have been similar reluctant in their policiies, but it seems they did not have objections against BRP.

 

Ok, so as written above, in 1960 BRP seems to have been treated very much as a quite normal 'private' team, but in 1961 (now renamed as UDT-Laystall) they were neither running at Zandvoort nor at the Nürburgring, One could assume, that the Dutch organizers would have maybe only invited 'manufacturers' (as had been quite a tradition in Grand Prix before), but in contradiction to that they accepted or even invited entries for the Parnell team (this year under Yeoman Credit sponsorship). And they even had two Camoradi entries as 'reserve'. And in Germany there were even a lot of pure 'privateer' entries (in the sense of owner/driver) like Ashmore, Marsh or Lewis.

 

In 1962 BRP was actually present at Zandvoort, but for the German GP in my records I have explicitely noted "entry refused" for Ireland and Gregory. Again, there were much less attractive entries (Lewis, Burgess, Shelly, Chamberlain even Collomb), so that is really asking for a background story!

 

In 1963 problems seem to have been settled, for BRP ran two entries throughout the season before Ireland got injured for the races in America. But then comes 1964 and BRP is absent again at Zandvoort and the Nürburgring, And I can absolutely see not any reason why somebody would turn down BRP, (at least a 'semi-constructor' and with a former Grand Prix winner as driver) and instead allow somebody like Bob Anderson to drive.