Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

BRM P207 identification

Started by Rainer Nyberg , Apr 23 2002 18:06

Please log in to reply

103 replies to this topic

#1 Rainer Nyberg

Member

1,768 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 23 April 2002 - 18:06

Can anyone connect a venue to the image below ?
The slow corner suggests Monte Carlo, but did BRM ever turn a wheel there in '77?
I have learned that they were present but thrown out of the event.

Maybe someone has images they can compare with?

I know that Conny Andersson entry sported different variations in how they applied the race number '35' on the front wings.

Posted Image

#2 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 23 April 2002 - 19:33

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
The slow corner suggests Monte Carlo, but did BRM ever turn a wheel there in '77?

Isn't every corner a slow corner in a P207?

I don't think they ran at Monaco - so you've got a choice of Jarama, Zolder or Anderstorp. That's such a tightly cropped picture that you may need someone to identify that dogdirt in the top-left corner!

Sorry!

Allen

#3 Rainer Nyberg

Member

1,768 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 23 April 2002 - 19:45

Yes I know the image is very close, that is why I suggested the comparing of images to find a match...

The 'race-number' looked like this at Jarama so that don´t match.

Posted Image

#4 Reyna

Member

630 posts
Joined: March 02

Posted 23 April 2002 - 19:46

Hi

Could be 1977 French Grand Prix (Dijon) ?

Rafa

#5 CSGPR

Member

221 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 23 April 2002 - 20:06

Hi

I Back that. The French Grand Prix at Dijon

best regards

#6 FEV

Member

909 posts
Joined: May 01

Posted 23 April 2002 - 20:17

Allen's well spotted dogdirt could also be leaves. I would therefore go for Zolder who has trees all around. And the tight corner hardly fits with Prenois IMHO.

#7 Frank de Jong

Member

1,830 posts
Joined: February 01

Posted 23 April 2002 - 20:22

The picture might have been taken in the pit area, from the roof of the pitbox - haven't been at the circuits mentioned, but in Zandvoort such a picture was very well possible.

#8 Felix Muelas

Member

1,209 posts
Joined: November 99

Posted 23 April 2002 - 21:48

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Isn't every corner a slow corner in a P207?

Sorry Rainer !
;)
Felix

#9 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 23 April 2002 - 22:04

Why did I forget Dijon? Because he used 207-02 for the first time at Dijon, which might explain the different livery.

Allen

#10 RaymondMays

Member

205 posts
Joined: January 99

Posted 24 April 2002 - 11:33

Do any of the P207's still exist? If so, does anyone know who owns them, or where they are?

Were they completely built at Bourne? Did Stanley-BRM still have the resources to do that?

Did they have a new engine, or an old design V12?

#11 Rainer Nyberg

Member

1,768 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 24 April 2002 - 13:56

Allen?

http://www.oldracing...asp?TypeID=P207

#12 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 24 April 2002 - 21:24

John Jordan still had 207/02 less engine and 207/01 in bits last time I checked. Ask me again tomorrow as I'm trying to get all the chassis ownership records together for Doug's BRM Vol II and I only have a week left (gulp!).

They were completely built at Bourne where Stanley-BRM still had most of BRM's resources. In fact, I'll be at the old engine shop tomorrow. The engine was the P200 (give or take), a derivation of the P192 (IIRC and I probably don't!) and was probably no different to the P142 from years before. I'll ask tomorrow.

Allen

#13 ensign14

Member

61,995 posts
Joined: December 01

Posted 24 April 2002 - 21:50

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I'm trying to get all the chassis ownership records together for Doug's BRM Vol II and I only have a week left (gulp!).

Counting the hours...

#14 RaymondMays

Member

205 posts
Joined: January 99

Posted 25 April 2002 - 11:49

I'm actually from Bourne (don't live there now, although parents still do). My grandmother's house was just opposite the factory in Spalding Road. I vaguely remember some activity there, although I was only three years old in 1977.

Where was the engine shop, and what is there left of BRM there now?

Do you have any contact with Hall & Hall? If so which cars do they have at the moment?

http://www.hallsgara...o.uk/page3.html

http://www.racecar.c...wler/index.html

#15 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 26 April 2002 - 22:21

I was with Rick and Robert at Hall & Hall yesterday. They have the old BRM engine shop at Folkingham and it's a hive of activity now with at least eight preparation bays busy while I was there. They also have storage facilities in Bourne but they'd not thank me if I said where they were or what was in them!

They have many, many cars there, from a Maserati 250F to a Lola T70 via just about every desirable F1 car from the 1950's, 1960s and 1970s. But they are so busy they have no need to advertise so I guess I'd better not do it for them.

(And Doug, if you're reading this, you'll have a very solid first draft by the end of the weekend

)

Allen

#16 Doug Nye

Member

11,534 posts
Joined: February 02

Posted 26 April 2002 - 22:49

Allen - calm mate, mmmmmm, calmmmmm -

#17 RaymondMays

Member

205 posts
Joined: January 99

Posted 29 April 2002 - 12:35

One final question.

How can I find out where BRM cars are being displayed / raced / demonstrated (I have been to the Donington Collection).

I would love to see a P160 in the Thoroughbred GP series.

#18 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 29 April 2002 - 18:26

They're all in Donington or in Hall & Hall's lockups!

Come to Goodwood in June and you'll see lots of them.

Allen

#19 uechtel

Member

1,960 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 30 April 2002 - 14:25

I don´t think, that one of them will appear in the Thoroughbread series.

As far as I can recall the programme at the Nürburgring told, that this is only open to Cosworth V8 powered cars...

Or am I wrong here?

#20 David McKinney

Member

14,156 posts
Joined: November 00

Posted 30 April 2002 - 15:07

A BRM P160 (or was it a 180?) ran in the TGP series three or four years ago, and older P126/133 models also appear occasionally
Turbo cars are excluded however

#21 AndreasNystrom

Member

785 posts
Joined: December 01

Posted 30 April 2002 - 15:49

It rained at Zolder (atleast during qualify), so maybe not Zolder.. (edit: nope.. the number on the frontwing doesnt match.. just a 35 on it on the left side)
and at Interlagos, they had to remove the engine-cover so the engine wouldnt missfire.. i will see if i can find any more info about it.

its not argentina (did not make it to the start cause of the airplane didnt fit the car) , not zolder (rain) , not interlagos (no enginecover) , not kyalami (no working car, so they had to use an old car) .. thats for sure

about monaco "Iniquite followed iniquity, the team gave Monaco, scene of its greatest triumphs a miss". Doesnt sound like they was there? (that qoute was from Motorsport April 2001, page 48)

#22 stavelot

Member

80 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 30 April 2002 - 16:08

Originally posted by AndreasNystrom
so maybe not Zolder..
and at Interlagos, they had to remove the engine-cover so the engine wouldnt missfire.. i will see if i can find any more info about it.

its not argentina (did not make it to the start cause of the airplane didnt fit the car) , not zolder (rain) , not interlagos (no enginecover) , not kyalami (no working car, so they had to use an old car) .. thats for sure

about monaco "Iniquite followed iniquity, the team gave Monaco, scene of its greatest triumphs a miss". Doesnt sound like they was there? (that qoute was from Motorsport April 2001, page 48)

Not, not, not...

It remains Dijon - GP France.

#23 Maldwyn

Member

1,488 posts
Joined: August 00

Posted 01 May 2002 - 14:55

Originally posted by Allen Brown
you've got a choice of Jarama, Zolder or Anderstorp

Can't be Anderstorp because, if nothing else, this photo shows "Conny Andersson" clearly visible on the side of the cockpit.

#24 Allen Brown

Member

5,540 posts
Joined: December 00

Posted 02 May 2002 - 19:18

I'm sure it's Dijon and the first appearance of 207/02, which explans the different livery.

Allen

#25 Rainer Nyberg

Member

1,768 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 02 May 2002 - 19:31

Well done Allen, and others suggesting Dijon :clap:

I am also now convinced that it is the only possiblity, the bodywork changes also suggests that for sure, the engine air-intakes are relocated on this car and it suggests a 'new' version of the 207.

Since Conny Andersson appeared with the original bodywork at Sweden, and he only did one face after that - Dijon - so that is the option left.

#26 Bonde

Member

1,072 posts
Joined: December 04

Posted 21 May 2005 - 20:04

While we're anxiously awaiting the good Mr. Nye's final volume of the BRM saga, I've got a question about the P207, prompted by the pictures recently posted on Micahel P's excellent site, specifically http://www.atspeedim...77_brm_p207_f1/.

The P207 shown here has a different radiator arrangement than any I've seen in 1977, but that's hardly suprisng, given that the 207 was initially prone to overheating, IIRC, and was probably modified in this respect several times in its life, including in AFX. However, what really caught my eye is the shape of the chassis tub structure: These have a sloped down (higher near the centerline of the car) upper surfaces, wheras the 'original' 207 had flat upper surfaces. My question is: Was this chassis structure shape a feature of both 207s throughout their lives, initially hidden by bodywork, or is it a distinctly different chassis structure that is used on this particular chassis? (I don't know which it is, as I can't see the marking plate in the otherwise very crisp photos).

#27 Pedro 917

Member

1,767 posts
Joined: August 02

Posted 21 May 2005 - 23:00

Maybe this can help : I found this blurry picture of Andersson in the Zolder pitlane 1977:

Posted Image

No number on the left front wing.

...and a distant picture of Andersson going into the Jacky Ickx chicane just before the start&finish line. It rained on Friday but Saturday was dry.

Posted Image

#28 GIGLEUX

Member

1,519 posts
Joined: April 03

Posted 22 August 2005 - 22:52

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
Well done Allen, and others suggesting Dijon

I am also now convinced that it is the only possiblity, the bodywork changes also suggests that for sure, the engine air-intakes are relocated on this car and it suggests a 'new' version of the 207.

Since Conny Andersson appeared with the original bodywork at Sweden, and he only did one face after that - Dijon - so that is the option left.

Photo of the car at Dijon in Autocourse 1977-78 page 123: NO N°35 on the left front wing!

#29 Rob G

Member

11,615 posts
Joined: April 01

Posted 23 August 2005 - 00:11

Another thing missing in Pedro 917's Zolder photos is the air intake on either side of the cockpit just below and in front of the rear-view mirrors. Is that also the case in the Dijon photo?

#30 Jorge Felix

Member

107 posts
Joined: November 00

Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:54

The picture Rainer uploaded is, in my opinion, from Anderstorp.
The following details can help...

Side by side we have the image of both drivers doing a left corner, going out of the pits.
Same sun position, same picture angle, same year... but Jarier is a little away from the point where
is Andersson.

Posted Image

Here is possible to see that at Anderstorp the P207 also have both "in front" engine air-intakes
and "rear" engine air-intakes. Two diferent cockpit designs... even two diferent rear wings, or, at
least, at one time with an extra sponsor (apart from GoodYear) and with only GoodYear.

#31 Andrew Kitson

Member

2,535 posts
Joined: July 03

Posted 23 August 2005 - 06:17

Both P207s are alive and well in Dave Finnigan's workshop in Gamlingay. Dave looked after John Jordan's collection for him but has now aquired all remaining cars including the M6B. One 207 is restored, beautifully, the other almost complete. The V12 of the first has run many hours on the dyno without problem. Dave has apparantly identified the fault in a specific area of the design of the original which caused so many failures and amended. Tests on the runway at nearby Duxford have confirmed this. The cars are for sale with the first due to go to the USA should the deal go through.

#32 Bonde

Member

1,072 posts
Joined: December 04

Posted 23 August 2005 - 13:39

Andrew,

Is this the first of Finnigan's P207s you mentioned?

http://www.atspeedim...77_brm_p207_f1/

#33 BRM MICK

Member

79 posts
Joined: October 04

Posted 25 August 2005 - 21:21

I have checked my 207 photos and none show the car running with the bodywork on the above link during Stanley BRM days.
However I have found a couple of Jordan BRM usingthe bodywork in 1980/82 .Finnigan was Jordan's mechanic I wonder why he never found a cure for the engine problems at that time??
I remember in a Motorsport article that the overheating problems were due to water pump design defect . It said the water was not circulating correctly. Very strange on a engine in constant use since 1968!!

#34 BRM MICK

Member

79 posts
Joined: October 04

Posted 26 August 2005 - 17:42

Now scanned photos

Pilette Oulton Park 1978 AFX Formula One . His best BRM result finishing 4th. Normal bodywork as per the end of 1977 Formula One season

Two of Tony Trimmer in the Jordan BRM version 1980 and the larger picture at Thruxton 1982.Both pictures have the revised bodywork as per the link.

A mystery picture as this 207 is running in Stanley BRM livery . Driver is not Teddy Pilette, I am not aware of any other driver being used by Stanley BRM in 1978?? . I cannot believe this picture was taken in 1977.??

#35 Andrew Kitson

Member

2,535 posts
Joined: July 03

Posted 27 August 2005 - 08:04

Originally posted by BRM MICK
I have checked my 207 photos and none show the car running with the bodywork on the above link during Stanley BRM days.
However I have found a couple of Jordan BRM usingthe bodywork in 1980/82 .Finnigan was Jordan's mechanic I wonder why he never found a cure for the engine problems at that time??
I remember in a Motorsport article that the overheating problems were due to water pump design defect . It said the water was not circulating correctly. Very strange on a engine in constant use since 1968!!

Not sure if Dave had anything to do with the engine rebuilds or engine development when JJ owned them, purely the mechanic who ran them. I will try to get hold of Dave and arrange a look at them for Doug and myself in the near future.

#36 MCS

Member

4,700 posts
Joined: June 03

Posted 27 August 2005 - 11:32

Originally posted by BRM MICK
A mystery picture as this 207 is running in Stanley BRM livery . Driver is not Teddy Pilette, I am not aware of any other driver being used by Stanley BRM in 1978?? . I cannot believe this picture was taken in 1977.??

Driver is Neil Bettridge (former FF2000 pilot and one-time BRM hopeful).

#37 Huw Jadvantich

Member

602 posts
Joined: July 04

Posted 27 August 2005 - 12:36

Going back to the original picture, I believe the picture is taken in the same place as the ATS, in the pits, particularly as Conny has his visor up, which would be unlikely if he were out on the circuit.

#38 Andrew Kitson

Member

2,535 posts
Joined: July 03

Posted 27 August 2005 - 13:26

Originally posted by MCS

Driver is Neil Bettridge (former FF2000 pilot and one-time BRM hopeful).

ah yes, was trying to think of the name that went with that crash helmet - looks like approach to Druids with shadow from footbridge over the track.

#39 Rainer Nyberg

Member

1,768 posts
Joined: October 00

Posted 27 August 2005 - 13:48

Just wanted to thank :up:

everyone for their input.

The ATS picture was convincing evidence.
Btw I hadn't seen the Volvo stickers on the ATS before either :eek:

#40 Richard Line

Member

61 posts
Joined: December 03

Posted 27 August 2005 - 14:01

Hi, I rebuilt the Tub and body work on this car a little while back. The car is now in the USA and has more than 400 race and practice miles on it now, since the beginning of this years historic racing season. "NO" Breakedowns. I was asked to finish off the the other tubs bodywork recently, and will find time soon. When this 207 is finished she will join the other in the US. Some of the moulds had been alterd to make bodywork for the 230, but I converted them back into 207 moulds.
Regards Richard

PS there are two body and tub shapes for the P207. Both should be racing in the US next year.

#41 BRM MICK

Member

79 posts
Joined: October 04

Posted 27 August 2005 - 14:09

hi

do you know which races it has been raced in this year, any source of pictures or any other info as to when the bodywork was first used

mick

#42 Richard Line

Member

61 posts
Joined: December 03

Posted 27 August 2005 - 16:51

The car is in california, not sure which races she has done. The only pics I have are a few digital and a whole load of ordinary pics I took as I striped and rebuilt her

#43 Bonde

Member

1,072 posts
Joined: December 04

Posted 27 August 2005 - 18:22

Richard,

I'm sure many of us would love to see some of those pictures! :love:

Any chance of posting some? Must've been interesting work to restore those BRMs.

Im curious as to how the two 207 tub shapes differ - and why they differ.

I'm glad these cars are being raced again - just too bad we can't hear the here in Europe.

#44 Richard Line

Member

61 posts
Joined: December 03

Posted 27 August 2005 - 18:42

I can mail you a couple of pics from when close to being finished, as I have no idea how to post them.
Richard

#45 Bonde

Member

1,072 posts
Joined: December 04

Posted 28 August 2005 - 00:06

Thanks, Richard, I'd appreciate that! :up:

I can post some of them for you if you like.

#46 Richard Line

Member

61 posts
Joined: December 03

Posted 28 August 2005 - 09:46

The tubs are in general Identical, However p207/02 had the sides modified to slope down . I dont know why, I think a clue may be to look at the shape of the 201. The slope on the 201 is much more radical. The 207 has a horizontal inner deck which creates fuel tank compartments below it. I suspect modifying the lower deck would have been a step to far in tryinhg to modify the chassis and would reduced fuel capacity in all four tanks.
Regards Richard

#47 Ray Bell

Member

80,253 posts
Joined: December 99

Posted 28 August 2005 - 09:59

This one?

#48 Richard Line

Member

61 posts
Joined: December 03

Posted 28 August 2005 - 10:05

#49 Richard Line

Member

61 posts
Joined: December 03

Posted 28 August 2005 - 10:07

Ray I cant get a mail to you with pics, keeps getting returned
Regs Richard

#50 Ray Bell

Member

80,253 posts
Joined: December 99

Posted 28 August 2005 - 10:11

Try r@ybell.net that should get to me... providing the total e.mail size doesn't exceed 3 megs...

Back to The Nostalgia Forum

Quick Navigation

BRM P207 identification

#1 Rainer Nyberg

#2 Allen Brown

#3 Rainer Nyberg

#4 Reyna

#5 CSGPR

#6 FEV

#7 Frank de Jong

#8 Felix Muelas

#9 Allen Brown

#10 RaymondMays

#11 Rainer Nyberg

#12 Allen Brown

#13 ensign14

#14 RaymondMays

#15 Allen Brown

#16 Doug Nye

#17 RaymondMays

#18 Allen Brown

#19 uechtel

#20 David McKinney

#21 AndreasNystrom

#22 stavelot

#23 Maldwyn

#24 Allen Brown

#25 Rainer Nyberg

#26 Bonde

#27 Pedro 917

#28 GIGLEUX

#29 Rob G

#30 Jorge Felix

#31 Andrew Kitson

#32 Bonde

#33 BRM MICK

#34 BRM MICK

#35 Andrew Kitson

#36 MCS

#37 Huw Jadvantich

#38 Andrew Kitson

#39 Rainer Nyberg

#40 Richard Line

#41 BRM MICK

#42 Richard Line

#43 Bonde

#44 Richard Line

#45 Bonde

#46 Richard Line

#47 Ray Bell

#48 Richard Line

#49 Richard Line

#50 Ray Bell

Sign In