Just recently I acquired Edmond Cohin’s book Historique de la Course Automobile 1881-1977, which states that the Grand Prix de France (for Voiturettes) and Coupe de la Sarthe (for Libre formula) took place concurrently on July 23, 1912. I can support this date only with Jean-Paul Delsaux’s book 100 ans de sport automobile Belge, in a roster of events on page 1912/2.
Question: Did Delsaux copy the date from Cohin? I suspect July 23 to be the wrong date! Does anybody have a different take on that?
All my other sources –books only- tell me that the Grand Prix de France (for Voiturettes) and Coupe de la Sarthe (for Libre formula) ran concurrently on September 9, 1912. Winners were:
1. Jules Goux (Peugeot L76) won the Coupe de la Sarthe for cars with unlimited engine size,
2. Paolo Zuccarelli (Lion-Peugeot 3-liter Voiturette) won the Grand Prix de France.
The Grand Prix de France had nothing to do with the Grand Prix de l’A.C.F., which took place on June 25-26, 1912. Here the winners were:
1. Georges Boillot (Peugeot L76, unlimited engine size) winning the Grand Prix and
2. Victor Rigal (Sunbeam 3-liter Voiturette) won the Coupe de "L'Auto", run concurrently.
1912 ? Grand Prix de France
Started by
Hans Etzrodt
, May 26 2002 06:00
24 replies to this topic
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#2
quintin cloud
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Posted 26 May 2002 - 07:44
The Dates that I have for the races that took place in France are as follows:
1912 Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France => 25-26 June at Dieppe
1912 Coupe des Voiturettes => 25-26 June at Dieppe
1912 Coupe de la Sarthe => 9 September at Circuit Le Mans
1912 Grand Prix de France => 9 September at Circuit Le Mans
1912 Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France => 25-26 June at Dieppe
1912 Coupe des Voiturettes => 25-26 June at Dieppe
1912 Coupe de la Sarthe => 9 September at Circuit Le Mans
1912 Grand Prix de France => 9 September at Circuit Le Mans
#3
Doug Nye
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Posted 26 May 2002 - 08:52
Hans - Grand Prix de l'ACF and Grand Prix de France meetings were definitely different events, on different courses as you and Quintin say, the first at Dieppe in mid-summer, the second at Le Mans in the Autumn.
#4
Vitesse2
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Posted 26 May 2002 - 11:18
Perhaps Cohin and/or Delsaux have confused the date of the 1912 race with that of the 1911 GP de France, which was held in July?
#6
alessandro silva
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Posted 27 May 2002 - 15:45
Hans,
you might want to add to your list the following source:
Pomeroy, The Grand Prix Car
GP ACF, 1912, June 25/26th
GP France, 1912, September 9th
I am puzzled though, since Cohin is usually reliable for dates of early races.
Also Lurani, in his excellent Storia delle Macchine da Corsa, Rome 1970, usualy gives dates of the main races, but is reticent about the 1912 GP de France.
you might want to add to your list the following source:
Pomeroy, The Grand Prix Car
GP ACF, 1912, June 25/26th
GP France, 1912, September 9th
I am puzzled though, since Cohin is usually reliable for dates of early races.
Also Lurani, in his excellent Storia delle Macchine da Corsa, Rome 1970, usualy gives dates of the main races, but is reticent about the 1912 GP de France.
#7
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 27 May 2002 - 22:01
Sandro- thanks again for your help in obtaining Cohin's book. I am really happy that I finally could put my hands on his great work. I labored through this book up to page 126 by only skimming a small part of the French text, primarily comparing the information with that in my list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949. This resulted in further research and update of my list to be completed very soon. I cannot spend more time with the book now because of all my other projects going on simultaneously and they do need my attention.Originally posted by alessandro silva
.....I am puzzled though, since Cohin is usually reliable for dates of early races.....
I found the following discrepancies:
Page 5 -
B.M.W. = Bayrische Motoren Werke
D.K.W. = Deutscher Kraft Wagen
E.M.W. = Eisenacher Motoren Werke
H.A.G. = Hessische Automobil AG
N.S.U. = Neckarsulm
Page 25- PAU-BAYONNE-PAU took place on April 6, 1899, NOT on March 25.
Page 29- NICE-MARSEILLE-NICE on March 26, 1900 only Ran from Nice to Marseille (see Rose).
Page 34- Torino-Bologna on November 24, 1901 was more of a private challenge, no real race.
Page 46- COUPE GORDON BENNETT took place on June 17, 1904, NOT on June 19.
Page 61- TARGA FLORIO took place on April 22, 1907, NOT on April 20.
Page 89- GRAND PRIX DE FRANCE took place on September 9, 1912, NOT on July 23, 1912.
I just realized that I never got this event right and hope the following is the correct version:Originally posted by alessandro silva
.....Lurani, in his excellent Storia delle Macchine da Corsa, Rome 1970, usualy gives dates of the main races, but is reticent about the 1912 GP de France.....
Sep. 9, 1912 - Grand Prix de France - Winner: Paul Zuccarelli (Lion-Peugeot L3), voiturette class.
Sep. 9, 1912 - Coupe de la Sarthe - Winner: Jules Goux (Peugeot L76), unlimited class.
Both races took place simultaneously on the Sarthe Circiut at Le Mans.
#8
FEV
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Posted 27 May 2002 - 22:24
Thanks for the updates on Cohin Hans ! I must have read each page of the book about a hundred times and still had miss some errors and disrepancies ! You will find quite a few of them I'm afraid. Most of those I can recall are in the post-1949 years so you probably don't care 
. For the era which interests you the most, the American races are pretty unreliable, some GP car type names are dubious for the 1920s-30s and I believe some results too. But still it remains my bible ! Hoepfully in ten years I'll have completed the revised edition 
. For the era which interests you the most, the American races are pretty unreliable, some GP car type names are dubious for the 1920s-30s and I believe some results too. But still it remains my bible ! Hoepfully in ten years I'll have completed the revised edition
#9
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 28 May 2002 - 00:34
Originally posted by FEV
.....Hoepfully in ten years I'll have completed the revised edition.....
Way to go, Frank! I wish I had your courage. Good Luck! Do you write in French or English?
#10
FEV
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Posted 28 May 2002 - 01:14
Thanks Hans, but you were my main source of inspiration and motivation on this so I am the one who thanks youOriginally posted by Hans Etzrodt
. I hope the courage won't fade with time.... I had problems making my mind between French and English but finally I started doing it in French because I feel more comfortable of course. On the other hand, English would widen the spectrum of people who might want to edit such a book but I am very far from having anything to show to an editor anyway !
#11
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 28 May 2002 - 07:06
Frank - from own experience I can confirm that English writing will become easier over time as you keep at it. It is easier than French or German. I think, your English has already a pretty good standard and you should feel safe writing your book in English. Because I am bilingual, I can claim to be in a similar situation as you and I simply keep hammering with two fingers along my keyboard, just to get my thoughts down. 8W forced me to improve my writing as did TNF here. Being bilingual does not help in my grammar I found out and this is hard to correct. I am a rather slow writer with help from a thesaurus plus various dictionaries and change my text often till it sounds right. Grammar problems again, I guess. But I get great enjoyment out of this and have a good time straightening out some historical facts – or so I think. And then how hard is it to find an editor? We have to ask David. But that comes much later. If you think of publishing one day, just look at the large English language market. That alone should make it easier to find a publisher for your work.Originally posted by FEV
.....I started doing it in French because I feel more comfortable of course. On the other hand, English would widen the spectrum of people who might want to....
#12
FEV
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Posted 30 May 2002 - 04:17
Hans : as always I am inspired by your thoughts and motivated by your encouragements ! I will so follow your advice and try to do it in English. It will probably be harder in the beginning and might take more time, but there's no hurry - I have a lifetime to do this ! Thanks
#13
Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 30 May 2002 - 06:05
Frank - you are spot on with your remarks. One main plus is that you will improve your English to the extent that eventually it might become as easy for you as your mother tongue.
Good Luck and Aloha,
Hans
Good Luck and Aloha,
Hans
#14
robert dick
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Posted 03 November 2002 - 14:54
Date for the GP de France 1912: monday 9th september.
This is confirmed by Omnia (Paris), La Vie Automobile (Paris) and Motor Age (Chicago).
The GP de France for 3 liter "voitures légères" and the unlimited Coupe de la Sarthe were run together at the same time, not one after the other.
The circuit was the usual GP de France 54 km circuit near Le Mans (used in 1911, -12 and -13).
On sunday 8th september there was a motorcycle race on a shorter 18 km circuit: the "Coupe internationale des Motocyclettes", for motorcycles, tricars and voiturettes (voiturette in this case meant displacement under 1 liter).
This is confirmed by Omnia (Paris), La Vie Automobile (Paris) and Motor Age (Chicago).
The GP de France for 3 liter "voitures légères" and the unlimited Coupe de la Sarthe were run together at the same time, not one after the other.
The circuit was the usual GP de France 54 km circuit near Le Mans (used in 1911, -12 and -13).
On sunday 8th september there was a motorcycle race on a shorter 18 km circuit: the "Coupe internationale des Motocyclettes", for motorcycles, tricars and voiturettes (voiturette in this case meant displacement under 1 liter).
#15
paulhooft
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Posted 03 November 2002 - 19:15
I found a copy of Edmond Cohin’s book Historique de la Course Automobile 1881-1977,
in Paris some 5 years ago,
It was to good not to buy it
It is a 5 cm thick large Volume..
and holds a lot of imformation
On the outside of my Volume of the book, there is a big 2...
So I always thaught that there should be a Volume 1 with the book,
and wonder what is in it, this volume seems to be very complete in itself....
Can you give me a clue..
paul
in Paris some 5 years ago,
It was to good not to buy it
It is a 5 cm thick large Volume..
and holds a lot of imformation
On the outside of my Volume of the book, there is a big 2...
So I always thaught that there should be a Volume 1 with the book,
and wonder what is in it, this volume seems to be very complete in itself....
Can you give me a clue..
paul
#16
FEV
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Posted 05 November 2002 - 07:00
The "1881-1977" edition of Cohin's book was in fact the much improved version of the original 1966 version. I think that it is what the #2 on the book refers to. The first version of Cohin's 'Historique...' was very much similar to Monkhouse/King-Farlow's well known books, both in content and format. The only copy I saw was a hard bound, traditionnal novel format book. It contained only top 3 results, and this for much less races than what can be found in the second edition. Also, as I remember it, the 1966 edition does not have race stories and technical descriptions, the two main strengths of the 1981 version. Plus, as Cohin says it himself in the foreword of the second edition, the original version had numerous errors and omissions in it. I would say that if the original edition can have a sentimental (and/or pecunial ?) value for collectors, it is not an essential item for a reasercher, especialy if he already owns the 1981 edition.Originally posted by paulhooft
I found a copy of Edmond Cohin’s book Historique de la Course Automobile 1881-1977,
in Paris some 5 years ago,
It was to good not to buy it
It is a 5 cm thick large Volume..
and holds a lot of imformation
On the outside of my Volume of the book, there is a big 2...
So I always thaught that there should be a Volume 1 with the book,
and wonder what is in it, this volume seems to be very complete in itself....
Can you give me a clue..
paul
#17
robert dick
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Posted 05 November 2002 - 15:39
A map of the Le Mans circuit as used in 1911, -12 and -13 - length 54 km – ran anti-clockwise.
The famous ligne droite des Hunaudières of the current 24 h circuit is a part of this old track, now run in the opposite direction.
The famous ligne droite des Hunaudières of the current 24 h circuit is a part of this old track, now run in the opposite direction.
#18
Vitesse2
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Posted 05 November 2002 - 15:53
I've seen a copy of the first Cohin book in the library at Beaulieu (if you're a very good boy and it's quiet they let you browse through the shelves!) and can confirm FEV's assessment. It's very much based on King-Farlow from what I could see, although there are very brief notes on most races, but they add little to the results.
#19
robert dick
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Posted 06 November 2002 - 07:27
Correction: The old 54 km Le Mans circuit was run clockwise in 1911, -12 and -13.
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#20
Jimmy Piget
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Posted 06 November 2002 - 20:06
Incidentally, I learnt last month that Edmond Cohin passed last year. Not a single line of obituary did appear in the whole of French motor press...
May I add, for having exchanged some letters with him, that he was so kind a man.
FEV, caution !
I'm afraid you cannot legally rewrite the Cohin book, let me explain why.
5 or 6 years ago, a man called Dominique P*** contacted me to do this kind of works (rewriting and updating), for an established French publishing company. What I understood is that this man bought the rights for the Cohin book, which Edmond Cohin approved when being told thet I was to rewrite.
But : 1. I did not accept to do so, when Dominique P*** clearly informed me that it'll be mandatory to cut largely in the pre-1950 information, in order to make seat for F1 results 1978-2000. My own opinion was, on the contrary, to length CanAm and F2 reports and to mention the main F3 events...
2. Cohin, as mentioned above, is now dead.
3. Dominique P*** has the dubious habit of going to court when somebody publishes things he owns (even if nobody else knows that he owns that). E. g., he sued Christian Huet for having displayed some photographs in his (splendid !) book on Gordini. Christian Huet assumed and proved that these pictures were given to him by none than Amedeo gordini himself, he was condemned to pay damages : Dominique P*** owned the negatives of them !
Cela étant, FEV, I guess it'll be useful creating a Cohin-like new book (i.e. not the same texts nor the same presentation, but with the same data)
Finding a Maison d'édition will be another "paire de manches", overall if your book is in French language...
May I add, for having exchanged some letters with him, that he was so kind a man.
FEV, caution !
I'm afraid you cannot legally rewrite the Cohin book, let me explain why.
5 or 6 years ago, a man called Dominique P*** contacted me to do this kind of works (rewriting and updating), for an established French publishing company. What I understood is that this man bought the rights for the Cohin book, which Edmond Cohin approved when being told thet I was to rewrite.
But : 1. I did not accept to do so, when Dominique P*** clearly informed me that it'll be mandatory to cut largely in the pre-1950 information, in order to make seat for F1 results 1978-2000. My own opinion was, on the contrary, to length CanAm and F2 reports and to mention the main F3 events...
2. Cohin, as mentioned above, is now dead.
3. Dominique P*** has the dubious habit of going to court when somebody publishes things he owns (even if nobody else knows that he owns that). E. g., he sued Christian Huet for having displayed some photographs in his (splendid !) book on Gordini. Christian Huet assumed and proved that these pictures were given to him by none than Amedeo gordini himself, he was condemned to pay damages : Dominique P*** owned the negatives of them !
Cela étant, FEV, I guess it'll be useful creating a Cohin-like new book (i.e. not the same texts nor the same presentation, but with the same data)
Finding a Maison d'édition will be another "paire de manches", overall if your book is in French language...
#21
Kvadrat
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Posted 05 September 2005 - 06:24
Look at picture in this page:
http://www.nationmas..._ACF_GP1912.jpg
Is it really ACF Grand Prix in Dieppe?
http://www.nationmas..._ACF_GP1912.jpg
Is it really ACF Grand Prix in Dieppe?
#22
Rob29
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Posted 05 September 2005 - 07:55
Looks like an oval?
#23
robert dick
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Posted 05 September 2005 - 08:33
Originally posted by Kvadrat
Is it really ACF Grand Prix in Dieppe?
A demonstration run of the 1912 GP Peugeot, most probably at the Vélodrome du Parc des Princes (Bois de Boulogne/Paris).
#24
Kpy
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Posted 05 September 2005 - 08:37
Originally posted by Kvadrat
Is it really ACF Grand Prix in Dieppe?
No. I'm afraid I can quite confidently tell you that it is not Dieppe, in 1912 or any other year. As to whether it's Boillot, I'll leave that question to someone more knowledgeable than I am. The image is too small for me to tell.
#25
Vitesse2
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Posted 05 September 2005 - 08:40
With banking that steep it has to be a velodrome. Looks like some sort of solo record run to me. Note the lap counter bottom left, which might be part of the cycling equipment, but might be used in a car record run too.
