I still can’t believe how something like this could happened.
Strange is, that the German police will keep the file Depailler away from public until 2005.
Patrick Depailler remembered
Started by
tyrrellp34
, Aug 01 2002 06:53
193 replies to this topic
#1
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 06:53
I remember well when he said in July 1980 “... don’t speak about future, future is for other people....”
I still can’t believe how something like this could happened.
Strange is, that the German police will keep the file Depailler away from public until 2005.
I still can’t believe how something like this could happened.
Strange is, that the German police will keep the file Depailler away from public until 2005.
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#2
ghinzani
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 09:01
is there anything marking where he died now they have moved Hockenheim around?
#3
LittleChris
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 09:18
Let's also not forget Jean Behra who died at AVUS, 43 years ago today 
#4
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 10:07
No, nothing. Maybe the officials feeling guilty? 
#5
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 10:50
They all died at the very first day of August:
Depailler
Mitter
Bueb
Chamberlain
Duncan
Behra
And Niki Lauda had his accident at the Nürburgring
Depailler
Mitter
Bueb
Chamberlain
Duncan
Behra
And Niki Lauda had his accident at the Nürburgring
#6
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 10:56
The idol of Patrick Depailler was Jean Behra. For Patrick the 1st of August was a “Black tie day” like for Barry Boor the day when Jim Clark died.
Strange is just the fact that he died at the same day as his idol 21 years later. In Patrick’s hometown at August 1 in 1959 I. Bueb died at the circuit of Clermont-Ferrand
Strange is just the fact that he died at the same day as his idol 21 years later. In Patrick’s hometown at August 1 in 1959 I. Bueb died at the circuit of Clermont-Ferrand
#7
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 18:55
By the way.. Alain Prost was getting married at August 1, 1980
#8
No27
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 19:17
Alfa Romeo looked on their way with him, but never got it right after he left. What if...?
#9
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 19:52
Alfa have built a car which was very good. After 5 laps testing they made a new trackrecord at their own testtrack.
After skirts ban and Goodyear retirement it was not in use for `81
But they might be very good in 1981 with that car!
After skirts ban and Goodyear retirement it was not in use for `81
But they might be very good in 1981 with that car!
#10
Doug Nye
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 21:19
Ivor Bueb - same time as Behra - in hospital at Clermont-Ferrand????
DCN
DCN
#11
tyrrellp34
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 06:10
So, he (Bueb) didn’t die at the Clermont-Ferrand circuit?
#12
Hieronymus
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 07:55
I also read that Ivor Bueb died in a Clermont-Ferrand hospital on 1 August 1959. This was a few days after his accident on the Clermont-Ferrand circuit. Apparently his team was not happy with the hospital facilities and wanted him transferred. Due to his injuries, they eventually decided against this. Wonder if there is a different story??
With regards to Patrick Depailler. Surely we all have our favourite driver or drivers. I am please to say that Depailler is my all time favourite. 1 August 1980 - an extremely sad day. My biggest regret - I never had the opportunity to meet him.
Seems that Patrick was liked universally. I can't remember ever reading something negative or rude about him in the English press. This says quite a lot, since there is the tendancy sometimes to "have a go" at non-English (read British drivers).
Patrick had so many good qualities, I think. He was fast, courageous, technically skilled, dedicated and most of all, he loved every minute of being in a racing car. Sometimes it is difficult for me to find just one of these qualities in so many of the current GP driver.
Would like to hear if anyone on TNF ever had the opportunity to speak to Patrick and to hear your impression in this regard...........
With regards to Patrick Depailler. Surely we all have our favourite driver or drivers. I am please to say that Depailler is my all time favourite. 1 August 1980 - an extremely sad day. My biggest regret - I never had the opportunity to meet him.
Seems that Patrick was liked universally. I can't remember ever reading something negative or rude about him in the English press. This says quite a lot, since there is the tendancy sometimes to "have a go" at non-English (read British drivers).
Patrick had so many good qualities, I think. He was fast, courageous, technically skilled, dedicated and most of all, he loved every minute of being in a racing car. Sometimes it is difficult for me to find just one of these qualities in so many of the current GP driver.
Would like to hear if anyone on TNF ever had the opportunity to speak to Patrick and to hear your impression in this regard...........
#13
Ralliart
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 13:05
At the '80 LBGP, on the Saturday I believe, I came across Depailler who was talking with someone. I didn't want to bother him so I kept on walking. An opportunity lost, perhaps, but I would've gotten more out of any possible conversation then he would've and that's my personality. He was a great driver with an immense amount of guts. Is his son, Loic, still racing, I wonder?
#14
Doug Nye
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 13:21
Depailler was a Man, not a boy. He enjoyed riding motor-cycles and flying hang-gliders regardless of fairy contracts. Didn't do him much good when he famously filed a vertical flight plan in his hang glider and hurt himself, but never mind. It was more red-blooded than playing bloody tennis. He preferred not to wear the underclothes of his racing overalls. "Why don't you wear the thermal underwear?" - "Oooh, mon dieu - too bloody 'ot...".
When Jackie Stewart went bouncing up to him for the ABC (???) TV winner's interview on the finishline at Monaco after he had won there in the Tyrrell 008, Jackie gushed "Awww Pahtrick, this must be the greatest day of your life!!!!" - and cool Depailler shrugged and smirked and said "Yes, well, per'aps one of zem....maybe...".
A Man.
DCN
When Jackie Stewart went bouncing up to him for the ABC (???) TV winner's interview on the finishline at Monaco after he had won there in the Tyrrell 008, Jackie gushed "Awww Pahtrick, this must be the greatest day of your life!!!!" - and cool Depailler shrugged and smirked and said "Yes, well, per'aps one of zem....maybe...".
A Man.
DCN
#15
tyrrellp34
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 19:54
I am sure that he would have won the Championship in 1979 ;)
#16
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 08:38
Now it is 23 years ago!
What a shame for the German ONS!
What a shame for the German ONS!
#17
Hieronymus
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 09:22
Yes, indeed - 23 years ago. The whole tradegy occured between 11h30 and 13h00. Patrick crashed shortly after 11h30. He was air lifted to a hospital in Heidelberg - still alive. Shortly after his arrival at the hospital he was pronounced dead. The result of massive head and internal injuries.
Grand Prix racing lost one of his favourite drivers...a modest and brave man, that was passionate about the sport.
Grand Prix racing lost one of his favourite drivers...a modest and brave man, that was passionate about the sport.
#18
SennasCat
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 11:52
This was before F1 was even on TV in Australia. What actually happened??
#19
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 12:07
The rear suspension boke, meanwhile the driver was in the Ostkurve wich was taken in that time with approximately 270 Km/h. The catchfencing were not installed and the car crashed badly into the guardrail. Unfortunately the car was up side down and so the drivers helmet was broken after the inpact.
Patrick had no chance!
After that, the chicane was installed.
Patrick had no chance!
After that, the chicane was installed.
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#20
Hieronymus
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 12:26
Friday, 1 August 1980. The Alfa Romeo team, for whom Depailler was racing at the time, was at Hockenheim for private tests.
Patrick did a couple of laps. Entering the flat out Ostkurve, something broke on the car. It is generally believe that it was a suspension failure - some suggest a broken skirt. Depailler went off the circuit, head on into a armco barrier. The car flipped and also slide for some distance. No catch fencing was installed at this particular point. It was rolled up and kept behind one of the barriers. A major slip up by the Hockenheim people. Alfa Romeo was also to blame, since they allowed Depailler and Giacomelli to test, eventhough they were aware of the non-existance of catch fencing at the Ostkurve.
I don't think Alfa ever made a final statement to tell the cause of the accident. At first they tried to blame Depailler, by suggesting he could have suffered a heart attack or black out. In the weeks prior to this accident Depailler suffered about three suspension failures on his car. All in very fast corners like the Ostkurve. In France, I remember, he had a collosal shunt at Signes.
It was clear that their was something drastically wrong with the Alfa, but Patrick never pushed the issue. Carlo Chiti was in charge and this could most probably be why Depailler never was too critical. I understand that Chiti was somewhat of a dictator, that never excepted a driver's comments. Hear say, though.
Steve, there is no video material of this accident, since it was during private tests. I have seen several photos of the accident, though, and from this one can understand the tremendous impact that the car took.
Patrick did a couple of laps. Entering the flat out Ostkurve, something broke on the car. It is generally believe that it was a suspension failure - some suggest a broken skirt. Depailler went off the circuit, head on into a armco barrier. The car flipped and also slide for some distance. No catch fencing was installed at this particular point. It was rolled up and kept behind one of the barriers. A major slip up by the Hockenheim people. Alfa Romeo was also to blame, since they allowed Depailler and Giacomelli to test, eventhough they were aware of the non-existance of catch fencing at the Ostkurve.
I don't think Alfa ever made a final statement to tell the cause of the accident. At first they tried to blame Depailler, by suggesting he could have suffered a heart attack or black out. In the weeks prior to this accident Depailler suffered about three suspension failures on his car. All in very fast corners like the Ostkurve. In France, I remember, he had a collosal shunt at Signes.
It was clear that their was something drastically wrong with the Alfa, but Patrick never pushed the issue. Carlo Chiti was in charge and this could most probably be why Depailler never was too critical. I understand that Chiti was somewhat of a dictator, that never excepted a driver's comments. Hear say, though.
Steve, there is no video material of this accident, since it was during private tests. I have seen several photos of the accident, though, and from this one can understand the tremendous impact that the car took.
#21
David Force
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 15:16
Patrick's son Loic turned up at the Charade circuit last week to see the F1 and F2 cars and just missed one of his fathers Tecno's which had unfortunately dropped a piston and returned home.
He was extremely enthusiastic about the prospect of seeing some of Patrick's cars now running in THE FORCE Classic Grand Prix series such as the Monaco winning 008, a 007 which will be at Nurburgring next weekend plus the earlier 004 which marked his debut. Tyrrell 001 will make its 're-debute' very fittingly at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on August 25th and Loic is hoping to be there.
He is no longer racing having done about seven years here and in the USA and proved to himself he could do it. His father was a special bloke and Loic is a super chap too.
He was extremely enthusiastic about the prospect of seeing some of Patrick's cars now running in THE FORCE Classic Grand Prix series such as the Monaco winning 008, a 007 which will be at Nurburgring next weekend plus the earlier 004 which marked his debut. Tyrrell 001 will make its 're-debute' very fittingly at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting on August 25th and Loic is hoping to be there.
He is no longer racing having done about seven years here and in the USA and proved to himself he could do it. His father was a special bloke and Loic is a super chap too.
#22
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 15:43
Originally posted by Hieronymus
All in very fast corners like the Ostkurve. In France, I remember, he had a collosal shunt at Signes.
The signes accisent was another problem. Patrick said the Mistral was the problem but the real matter was that you couldn't run through the Signes corner flat out, but Depailler tried it..
#23
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 15:45
Originally posted by David Force
He is no longer racing having done about seven years here and in the USA and proved to himself he could do it. His father was a special bloke and Loic is a super chap too.
Not really, because Loic was Vice Champion in 1999 with the Mosler Raptor in the US SCCA championship
#24
theunions
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 16:23
Originally posted by David Force
He is no longer racing having done about seven years here and in the USA and proved to himself he could do it.
Why did he stop, and what's he doing now?
#25
tyrrellp34
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Posted 01 August 2003 - 16:44
He stoped because of a money problem and is writing now for a famous frensh motorbike magazin
#26
SennasCat
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Posted 02 August 2003 - 04:19
Thanks everyone for quick and accurate information 
#28
Depa
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Posted 02 August 2003 - 22:46
David Force .. I wanted to only know if Loic it has tried some car of the father or if it has intention to make it ..and you even know if it has made some race in whichever category this year? Tanks
#29
David Force
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Posted 04 August 2003 - 17:36
Depa,
The Tyrrell 007 of Patrick will race at Nurburgring this weekend, also a Tyrrell P34, not sure if its Patricks or not. The Tecno F2 he raced will be at the Oulton park Gold Cup on August 25 along with Tyrrell 001 with, it is rumoured, a past driver at the wheel.
Loic would love to be reaquainted with one of these cars and it might happen.
The Tyrrell 007 of Patrick will race at Nurburgring this weekend, also a Tyrrell P34, not sure if its Patricks or not. The Tecno F2 he raced will be at the Oulton park Gold Cup on August 25 along with Tyrrell 001 with, it is rumoured, a past driver at the wheel.
Loic would love to be reaquainted with one of these cars and it might happen.
#30
Depa
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Posted 04 August 2003 - 22:58
Thanks David.
I hope that it is truth for Loic to drive. To me he would appeal to even if you can inform to me if this happened. My data are in the profile.
Thanks still
I hope that it is truth for Loic to drive. To me he would appeal to even if you can inform to me if this happened. My data are in the profile.
Thanks still
#31
David M. Kane
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Posted 05 August 2003 - 02:06
I saw Patrick race three live and I consider myself very, very lucky to have seen his win at Monaco in my only trip there.
He also had a wick sense of humor. I was lucky enough to be standing in the McLaren pits at Watkins Glen just after Hunt had come into the pits because part of his exhaust or some other part had flown off the car while Patrick
was right behind him. So here comes Patrick walking over with a naughty
grin on his face and he says, "James, I know you don't like me much, but
must throw things at me on the track?" I thought it was one of great comments of all time from a racing driver.
The best shots from the "Laps of the Gods" are those of Patrick.
I saw him in the rain in the six-wheeler...now that was special!
He also had a wick sense of humor. I was lucky enough to be standing in the McLaren pits at Watkins Glen just after Hunt had come into the pits because part of his exhaust or some other part had flown off the car while Patrick
was right behind him. So here comes Patrick walking over with a naughty
grin on his face and he says, "James, I know you don't like me much, but
must throw things at me on the track?" I thought it was one of great comments of all time from a racing driver.
The best shots from the "Laps of the Gods" are those of Patrick.
I saw him in the rain in the six-wheeler...now that was special!
#32
Hieronymus
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Posted 06 August 2003 - 09:06
Originally posted by David Force
... a 007 which will be at Nurburgring next weekend plus the earlier 004 which marked his debut.
David
Do you know who the present owner is of Tyrrell 004?
This was the car that Alex Blignaut bought from Ken Tyrrell. It was raced by Eddie Keizan in the 1973 South African Drivers' Championship. Eddie described the car being a "bit of a dog". Think he won a race in it, though, at Killarney near Cape Town.
After it was used by Keizan it went back to the UK again, I think, and was later bought by an American.
#33
David Force
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Posted 19 August 2003 - 16:33
Hi Hieronymous,
Tyrrell 004 is owned by John Dimmer, an American as you say. It was present at Monterey this weekend along with 002 which is owned by John Delane and driven on this occassion by his son Ryan as John himself drove 001 which is still owned by the Tyrrell family who have agreed with John that in return for his restoring the car he can race it in the FORCE series. Jackie Stewart demonstrated the car at Laguna and it has been flown immediately to Oulton Park where JYS will demo it again on bank holiday monday. Delane also has the 1968/9 Tyrrell transporter which was present and attracted more attention than the cars ! it is beautifully and sensitively restored and just fabulous. It was aTyrrell fest with 001, 002, 004, 005 an 007 a couple of 009 and an 011. Pics of one of the mechanics on the Monterey thread elsewhere are worth viewing...
It is expected that all the above will be in Europe next season.
Tyrrell 004 is owned by John Dimmer, an American as you say. It was present at Monterey this weekend along with 002 which is owned by John Delane and driven on this occassion by his son Ryan as John himself drove 001 which is still owned by the Tyrrell family who have agreed with John that in return for his restoring the car he can race it in the FORCE series. Jackie Stewart demonstrated the car at Laguna and it has been flown immediately to Oulton Park where JYS will demo it again on bank holiday monday. Delane also has the 1968/9 Tyrrell transporter which was present and attracted more attention than the cars ! it is beautifully and sensitively restored and just fabulous. It was aTyrrell fest with 001, 002, 004, 005 an 007 a couple of 009 and an 011. Pics of one of the mechanics on the Monterey thread elsewhere are worth viewing...
It is expected that all the above will be in Europe next season.
#34
philippe7
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Posted 19 August 2003 - 19:23
David
Is the Force F1 race at Le Mans on 21/22 September still on ? I'm planning my week-ends to come...
Is the Force F1 race at Le Mans on 21/22 September still on ? I'm planning my week-ends to come...
#35
David Force
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Posted 20 August 2003 - 18:11
Phillipe,
Yes It is confirmed as on, two and two dont make force, but I have good information that the grid will be great including Tyrrell 001 and 007.
Yes It is confirmed as on, two and two dont make force, but I have good information that the grid will be great including Tyrrell 001 and 007.
#36
philippe7
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Posted 21 August 2003 - 05:17
Thank you David
That sounds just great . I Just need to wait a couple of weeks then !
That sounds just great . I Just need to wait a couple of weeks then !
#37
tyrrellp34
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Posted 14 November 2003 - 18:24
The bad thing regarding Depailler’s death is, that one could say, that the “holy” ONS Sicherheitsstaffel made a big mistake because they didn’t allow people to go out and help him.
For more than 20 minutes he was alone in the car and nobody was allowed to go out and look why he didn’t comes back. 20 minutes after his accident he was found and removed out of the car.... he died two hours later in Heidelberg....
For more than 20 minutes he was alone in the car and nobody was allowed to go out and look why he didn’t comes back. 20 minutes after his accident he was found and removed out of the car.... he died two hours later in Heidelberg....
#38
Hieronymus
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 07:05
Thanks Guido!!
You supplied me with photos that I have never seen before!
Tyrrellp34
I think Patrick was trapped for a while in the car and that the medical attendants tried to stabalise his condition. Surely he did not "disappeared" for 20 minutes. I think they immediately knew that he had crashed. . .?
You supplied me with photos that I have never seen before!
Tyrrellp34
I think Patrick was trapped for a while in the car and that the medical attendants tried to stabalise his condition. Surely he did not "disappeared" for 20 minutes. I think they immediately knew that he had crashed. . .?
#39
tyrrellp34
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 08:47
The car was up side down, his helmet was broken into two pieces. After he was removed out of the car, he was lying on the tarmac. The whole body was trembling and he had a massive rapid eye movement with no more pupillary reflex because they are open wide and than into small again..
Injuries like the one from Senna... after a broken helmet
Injuries like the one from Senna... after a broken helmet
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#40
T54
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 18:11
The car was up side down, his helmet was broken into two pieces.
The helmet worn by Patrick was a French-made GPA "clamshell" type. This helmet was very popular among F1-F2-F3 racers in the early 1980's and did not have a conventional strap. What one can see in the photos are parts of the torn black plastic bottom that appears to look like a flexible strap but really is a semi-rigid part.
Two red push-buttons retained the front and back hinged bottom parts of the helmet, while the one-piece aramid fiber top contained the polystyrene liner. This was a very advanced concept and was Snell-75 certified.
What appears to have happened is that one side of the retaining system was not fully engaged (it did not "snap" completely shut) and the helmet opened during the tremendous impact, tearing the front bottom hinged part from it. Would Patrick have survived if the helmet had been safely shut remains doubtful, as any helmet can only do so much until the violence of an impact exceeds its capabilities.
I had a couple of those helmets, designed by competent ex-F3 racers. They did the job fine, but it did happen a couple of times that the locking system was not totally engaged on one side, and I only found out DURING or AFTER the end of a race. Not a comfortable feeling...
Of course today, the spectacular progress made by several helmet companies (Simpson, Arai and especially Stand 21) render the GPA technically obsolete in every respect. But in 1980, it was state of the art.
Think of the horrendous and similar crash encountered by Yannick Dalmas a few years back at Indianapolis Raceway Park while testing a CART car. The Stand 21 helmet was reduced to a crackled eggshell, but it did its job and Yannick survived with a concussion.
One can blame everything and everyone in this accident, it remains that the net result is that Patrick is no longer with us.
Regards,
T54
#41
ghinzani
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Posted 17 November 2003 - 23:06
Dick Parsons was wearing one of those GPA helmets when he died at Silverstone in 86, a catch fence pole knocked it off IIRC. Also Gilles Villeneuve used one as well. When did they stop making them? I'm surprised Dalmas was wearing one - did GPA go bust?
#42
T54
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 04:39
did GPA go bust?
GPA is alive and well but no longer belongs to the MOTUL oil company. Nowadays they just do motorcycle helmets.
I'm surprised Dalmas was wearing one -
Yannick was not, please read my message again. Yannick was wearing an early example of what is currently the best Snell-tested helmet, the Stand 21 F21 (see here: http://www.fransurf....9/F21-99-2.html ). It did what it was supposed to and saved his skull from being crushed.
As far as the GPA, engineered by an enthusiastic group of ex-F3 and F2 french drivers, there was really nothing wrong with this brilliantly designed helmet other than there are much better ones today. In 1980, there was no better helmet on the planet, period.
This is a GPA "SJ" helmet as used by a good number of the top F1-F2 racers in the late 1970's to mid 1980's. The red button on the side opens the front and rear clamshell halves encircling the bearer's neck. The most important is too make sure that the halves are securely locked, and it was not always easy to do with the then heavy rough nomex balaclavas and suit collars. So sometimes, it would appear to be locked but was really not. A clear "snap" could be felt when this was accomplished. GP drivers can be very distracted when putting their helmets on before a race...
Here is another worn by Eddie Cheever:
Remember that if a few people got killed while wearing a GPA helmet, many others died wearing other brands, from Bell to Arai to Shoei to Simpson to AGV etc... A helmet can only do so much and blaming one for someone's death is a bit over the top.
Regards,
T54
#43
ghinzani
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 10:55
Whoops, I stand corrected T54 - working nights at the moment, not all there.... Eddie Cheever I guess wore a GPA whilst at Ligier and Renault? He was sponsored by Nava helemts later in his career IIRC - perhaps whilst at Alfa, indicating they may be an Italian type. I also recall the GPA came in narrow and wide window versions. Were GPA owned by Motul in their glory days? Its just I wonder about ELF/Shell/Fina/Antat etc contracted drivers wearing products made by a rival? I also recall Bellof wearing a GPA whilst in F2/F1, and also Fittipaldi wearing a brazillian Bell copy whilst testing for Spirit in early 84 called a "Hells" !
Interested (and happy) to hear great strides have been made in helmet design and safety , I use a Shoei for my kartng - it seems very good, altho the strap can be a little fiddly if you are in a rush. I want to get graphics like Piercarlo's on it - does it harm the helemt having stickers applied or is it safer to get it painted? Sorry to ask so many questions but I've been seeking answers to my helemt questions for some time!
Interested (and happy) to hear great strides have been made in helmet design and safety , I use a Shoei for my kartng - it seems very good, altho the strap can be a little fiddly if you are in a rush. I want to get graphics like Piercarlo's on it - does it harm the helemt having stickers applied or is it safer to get it painted? Sorry to ask so many questions but I've been seeking answers to my helemt questions for some time!
#44
T54
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 16:17
Eddie Cheever I guess wore a GPA whilst at Ligier and Renault?
Actually he wore this one when at Osella, and I cannot recall what he wore when in the Renault F1.
Lots of drivers were using the GPA then.
Of course nowadays, it's just a matter of which company looking for instant and massive exposure is giving to and paying whom, and the entire top-level racing circus is now a big "safety equipment" whorehouse, with often the driver unable to chose his own equipment for his own safety... I have seen it often and personally heard top drivers complain about it. I am pleased to see that there are companies unwilling to play this game and stay above this virtual commercial prostitution for general public's consumption, while making such a superior product that their balance sheet is good indeed because the people who buy what they want rather than getting inferior freebies go straight to them.
I have read a lot of stupid and inane stuff over the years about stickers or paint compromising the structural integrity of a helmet, and all I can say is PHOOEY! Such stickers or paint thinners could at best damage the gel coat on the outer layer, and this is purely decorative and has no other actual function than providing a smooth surface...for paint.
As far as "older" helmets, I fell on my head hard several times wearing a supposedly crummy (according to Today's Moral Safety Police) Cromwell "glorified cardboard" helmet, and it saved my head every time. I also fell hard with a Bell Star, and it did the job. Of course, some impacts are harder than others, and when the person inside the lid is no longer with us, you know that the threshold has been reached. But in auto racing and in frontal-side impacts, it is generally more a question of brain rotation inside the skull than actual impact damage that causes death. There are of course notable exception like in the Donohue or Senna cases, where the helmets were overwhelmed by the actual impacts and could not prevent a major hematoma and an un-detected blood clot in one case, and direct penetration in the second. In the first case, the widow successfully sued Bell because "there was no warning as of the safety threshold" (meaning no warning label inside the helmet...), and there is no final determination in the second because (in a way, fortunately) the Italian justice and its "experts" are clueless regarding helmet construction and the Snell-90 and 95 standards... and the unusually light helmets worn then by top F1 drivers, helmets that were 500g lighter than the Snell-certified models despite the added paint AND the radio gear...
There were no such concerns at the time of Patrick Depailler's death, as it was normal to wear 3500g or more over your head, compared with 1500g today.
Regards,
T54
#45
gdecarli
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 17:20
Are you sure that Senna's helmet was under investigation by Italian justice? Or - better question - are you sure that is was the focus of its investigation?Originally posted by T54
there is no final determination in the second because (in a way, fortunately) the Italian justice and its "experts" are clueless regarding helmet construction and the Snell-90 and 95 standards... and the unusually light helmets worn then by top F1 drivers, helmets that were 500g lighter than the Snell-certified models despite the added paint AND the radio gear...
When there is a fatal accident, Italian justice MUST investigate why, because responsible (if there is any) MUST be punished. So surely they checked if Senna's helmet was legal according to rules, but Ayrton died because he was very unlucky. A helmet of course must have a hole in front of eyes and there is no transparent material so strong to stop a suspension at 200 km/h, unfortunately!
IIRC investigation was mostly about steering pipe, and according to our laws, this is an important investigation. If somebody (a mechanic or an engineer, in this case) works badly and this causes a death, he must be punished. If everybody works at state of art, nobody is guilty and nobody is punished.
Back to Depailler's accident, if it was in Italy I think that track's owners would have many problems because of lack of tyres and catches fences (the best safety system at that moment).
I hope I could explain our justice system (sorry for my English!), because I know that is quite different from British and American ones and that is why British teams have always many problems after deaths in Italy. Do you recall Lotus at Italian GP 1971? It was not an official Lotus...
Ciao,
Guido
#46
T54
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 18:07
Are you sure that Senna's helmet was under investigation by Italian justice? Or - better question - are you sure that is was the focus of its investigation?
No, what I am saying it that they did NOT investigate this aspect of the consequenses of the accident, because they do not have a clue.
The expert report at the trial points that "The front wheel's suspension arm pierced the three-time world champion's helmet. The brain damage was fatal." It did not say where on the helmet, but I was told by a Italian journalist friend that it was above the visor. IF this is the case (and the usual crash dynamics would show that this is correct), then there is a serious problem because the shell integrity may have been doubtful even at this speed and impact. The usual scenario for this often-seen type of accident would be the following:
-The car impacts the side wall at an unfavorable angle. The right front wheel assembly has no place to go but up, which it starts doing (see Donohue's or Mike Spence accidents as examples).
-At the same millisecond, the drivers body, head first, is projected towards the dashboard. the nylon safety belts (nylon being possibly the worst material to make safety belts from...) are no more than rubber bands in such an impact, theie adjustment tightening first, letting the driver''s head and torso accelerate in direct opposition to the G-forces of the impact, then the material itself starts stretching and stretching....
-The frontal part of the head and helmet collapses the steering wheel and starts rebounding.
-At this instant, a part of the sheared suspension meets and penetrates the helmet shell. It is very unlikely that it would be into the visor because of the likely head angle at this time.
But penetration of a foreign object into the shell alone would not kill immediately, and does not prove that it penetrated the brain. The medical report is quite vague there.
A simple way to resolve this particular angle of things (and it won't bring back anyone to life) would be for the Italian magistrates to WEIGH the helmet, and compare the weight of this Bell M2 to a stock, Snell-certified unit. Snell has all the records on file. This would show if yes or no, someone took the grinder to the shell as it was then usual practice by several helmet companies, so as to please the always complaining drivers. It COULD explain part of the story, but any blame cannot be placed it the helmet's total weight minus radio and paint is within 5% of the Snell-certified weight, because if the helmet is kosher, the accident circumstances exceeded the ability of said helmet to protect the driver, and it was just plain bad racing luck, end of the story.
I can tell you now that there were a few things that DID change after this accident as I was privy to discussions and memos between top-level parties requesting that all helmets would be checked at tech inspection, weighed and marked. Meaning: there were serious questions asked. I left the industry shortly after and do not know what ensued.
Regards,
T54
#47
ghinzani
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 18:40
****! is the only word I can say... so are you saying that teams put pressure in drivers to lighten their helmets, or worse (and this really throws up some questions of sanity) drivers asked for their lids to be lightened and thus made unsafe?? Thats just bizzare... I'm not questioning what you are saying, just reflecting why their should be minimum driver weights like in karting cos thats just criminal. This is where the FIA should have been stepping in IMHO.
#48
dosco
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 18:46
Originally posted by gdecarli
Are you sure that Senna's helmet was under investigation by Italian justice? Or - better question - are you sure that is was the focus of its investigation?
When there is a fatal accident, Italian justice MUST investigate why, because responsible (if there is any) MUST be punished. So surely they checked if Senna's helmet was legal according to rules, but Ayrton died because he was very unlucky. A helmet of course must have a hole in front of eyes and there is no transparent material so strong to stop a suspension at 200 km/h, unfortunately!
IIRC investigation was mostly about steering pipe, and according to our laws, this is an important investigation. If somebody (a mechanic or an engineer, in this case) works badly and this causes a death, he must be punished. If everybody works at state of art, nobody is guilty and nobody is punished.
Back to Depailler's accident, if it was in Italy I think that track's owners would have many problems because of lack of tyres and catches fences (the best safety system at that moment).
I hope I could explain our justice system (sorry for my English!), because I know that is quite different from British and American ones and that is why British teams have always many problems after deaths in Italy. Do you recall Lotus at Italian GP 1971? It was not an official Lotus...
Ciao,
Guido
Guido:
Did anyone punish the track owner or designer for not placing energy-absorbent barriers in front of the concrete barrier at Tamburello?
IMO, if there were some type of barrier at that corner when Senna lost it, he probably would be with us today.
#49
T54
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Posted 18 November 2003 - 18:52
so are you saying that teams put pressure in drivers to lighten their helmets, or worse (and this really throws up some questions of sanity) drivers asked for their lids to be lightened and thus made unsafe?? Thats just bizzare...
NO for the teams, yes for the drivers! Please read again. What I am saying is that the DRIVERS complained that their helmets were too heavy (which they were then) and some employees of some helmet companies took the grinder to the shells, breaking the integrity of their construction since the fibers and the resin were now compromised, just so that they would make the drivers happy.
You must understand that all racing car helmets except ONE (that one being injected and not hand-laid) are made "upside down", the fibers being hand-laid and the resin added to it with spray and paint brushes, meaning that the resin accumulates in the top by gravity during the manufacturing process. This makes all production helmets top-heavy, and it was then a "normal" practice to gring some of the excess resin off.
The drivers never knew how this was done and never even questioned it because there is no greater ignorant about their own safety than most racing drivers. The teams had no clue either since for them, drivers suits or helmets are just a way to put their sponsors logos on them, and they are utterly ignorant about their inherent safety or lack of it.
Regards,
T54
#50
gdecarli
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Posted 19 November 2003 - 00:07
I'm not sure, but I think that after a long investigation, nobody was punished for Senna's death.Originally posted by dosco
Guido:
Did anyone punish the track owner or designer for not placing energy-absorbent barriers in front of the concrete barrier at Tamburello?
IIRC, only Frank Williams and Patrick Head were in troubles because of steering pipe broke, but also them were not punished.
For more details I should give a look to some articles, but I don't recall where exactly I have to look for.
Ciao,
Guido
