Dijon 1979; Arnoux versus Villeneuve...

Does anybody have a link to a video of the lap at Dijon in 1979 between Rene and Gilles???

Thanks!!!!

http://www.farzadsf1...979/Dijon79.mpg

That's the one that circulates the web - I wonder if anyone has a very high quality version

great clip!!! didn't know that one! thx!


Don't you just love the way the circuit looks? not as clean and professional as they look now, makes the whole image look far more exiting.

Thanks you very much Arturo

Sigh... Ye good 'ol days...

1 july 1979...impossible forget....
I'll tell to my sons...nephew...
Gilles is great.

What I like also is the quote by Arnoux afterwards:

The duel with Gilles is something I'll never forget, my greatest souvenir of racing. You can only race like that, you know, with someone you trust completely, and you don't meet many people like him. He beat me, yes, and in France, but it didn't worry me - I knew I'd been beaten by the best driver in the world."
-Rene Arnoux
Rene Arnoux on his classic battle with Gilles Villeneuve at Dijon, France, 1979.

Originally posted by Beamer
....Don't you just love the way the circuit looks? not as clean and professional as they look now, makes the whole image look far more exiting.

What's wrong with you people?!?
How can anyone say this?
Yes, the best thing would be if they still raced on cobbles, isn't it so?

Hrvoje

Originally posted by Vrba


What's wrong with you people?!?
How can anyone say this?
Yes, the best thing would be if they still raced on cobbles, isn't it so?

Hrvoje

I think that's taking the argument to the extreme. A lot of people have the opinion that the circuits have gotten a little too antiseptic, and, while safe, they seem to have lost that feeling of danger and adventure that was always a part of motorsport. Nowadays the drivers look more and more like a bunch of labs rats racing around in a maze instead of gladiators competing on the edge of disaster.

"You can only race like that, you know, with someone you trust completely, and you don't meet many people like him."

That is why, regardless of futile discussions on who was more talented - which is a matter of personal taste/bias - Gilles will over tower the likes of Senna, Schumacher, Montoya et all. Gilles was at the very least as gutsy and ballsy as them, but just as fair and trustworthy as a Mika Hakkinen. I don't think we'll ever have someone like that these days.

"What's wrong with you people?!?
How can anyone say this?
Yes, the best thing would be if they still raced on cobbles, isn't it so?

Hrvoje"

Actually, what's wrong with you........ how can someone prefer races where the leaders maybe pass each other once every three GPs after watching a video when you saw 2nd and 3rd in the race swapping places 4-5 times in 2 laps????? THAT was racing and no, there were no cobble stones. It was 1979 and F1 wasn't that much different from what it is today. Just more fun to watch, that's all.

Maybe you should apply for a position as personal assistant of Max Mosley, it seems you both have totally clear ideas on how to give this sport the final blow........

Originally posted by Vrba


What's wrong with you people?!?
How can anyone say this?
Yes, the best thing would be if they still raced on cobbles, isn't it so?

Hrvoje

That was great. Never seen that one before.

Originally posted by Vrba


What's wrong with you people?!?
How can anyone say this?
Yes, the best thing would be if they still raced on cobbles, isn't it so?

Hrvoje

If you had ever seen GIlles drive yourself, you would understand how silly your comment looks...

Originally posted by The Sensational
That's the one that circulates the web - I wonder if anyone has a very high quality version

There is a higher quality clip out there, I used to have it until I had to format my drive

Originally posted by RedFever
"You can only race like that, you know, with someone you trust completely, and you don't meet many people like him."

That is why, regardless of futile discussions on who was more talented - which is a matter of personal taste/bias - Gilles will over tower the likes of Senna, Schumacher, Montoya et all. Gilles was at the very least as gutsy and ballsy as them, but just as fair and trustworthy as a Mika Hakkinen. I don't think we'll ever have someone like that these days.

Has anyone ever had to denigrate Gilles to praise a multi-time champion?

Originally posted by Rene


If you had ever seen GIlles drive yourself, you would understand how silly your comment looks...

I've seen him.
I was talking about the looks of the circuits, didn't refer to Villeneuve at all.

Hrvoje

Originally posted by Williams


I think that's taking the argument to the extreme. A lot of people have the opinion that the circuits have gotten a little too antiseptic, and, while safe, they seem to have lost that feeling of danger and adventure that was always a part of motorsport. Nowadays the drivers look more and more like a bunch of labs rats racing around in a maze instead of gladiators competing on the edge of disaster.

Why should they be gladiators?
There's nothing wrong with safety.
I don't need the feeling of danger. It wasn't intentionally built into motorsport but instead was simply unavoidable in earlier years. Consequently, when we got rid of it I don't see what's wrong with it. It didn't contribute to excitement, at least for me.

Hrvoje

Supernatural Gilles. The stuff heart attacks are made of.
Best two laps ever captured in video?
Can this happen today?

Comparing the look of the circuit to those of today, I think the major difference is the lack of advertising hoardings all round the entire track. It looks safe enough (okay the run off areas are not as deep etc, but they are there and there are no walls or cliffs around), but it just looks more natural than todays circuits. Circuits today just look like they are there only to cater to television advertisers rather than the viewers.

By the way, I forgot to say, what sensational racing We could certainly do with some more of that occasionaly.

Originally posted by Vrba


Why should they be gladiators?
There's nothing wrong with safety.
I don't need the feeling of danger. It wasn't intentionally built into motorsport but instead was simply unavoidable in earlier years. Consequently, when we got rid of it I don't see what's wrong with it. It didn't contribute to excitement, at least for me.

Hrvoje

We are talking about appearances, not the reality. No-one said there was anything wrong wth safety, rather the way the circuits are so neatly (and samely) organized and bereft of character. I agree with you that the modern atmosphere has it's own compensations in terms of the excitement and interest in F1 racing today, but seeing footage like this is a reminder of how raw and spontaneous the sport once was, to me anyway.

Originally posted by Vrba


What's wrong with you people?!?
How can anyone say this?
Yes, the best thing would be if they still raced on cobbles, isn't it so?

Hrvoje

Someone's got Big toes here hasn't he....

Did I mention cobbles anywhere...???? Did I say F1 isn't fun anymore? It just looks more natural and pure. No matter what your opinion is on modern day F1, it does look a lot cleaner and more professional now than it did back then.

Originally posted by Beamer


Someone's got Big toes here hasn't he....

Did I mention cobbles anywhere...???? Did I say F1 isn't fun anymore? It just looks more natural and pure. No matter what your opinion is on modern day F1, it does look a lot cleaner and more professional now than it did back then.

True, I agree.
But I see no reasons for nostalgy for the past.

Hrvoje

I didn't see too many chicanes on that track

"Has anyone ever had to denigrate Gilles to praise a multi-time champion?"

Yes, in fact Gilles was denigrated an infinite amount of times both in 1978 and 1979 to praise multi-champion Niki Lauda. Poor Enzo Ferrari was attacked so violently by those who couldn't see beyond their stat scoreboard sheets for replacing Lauda with Gilles. They supported Lauda for saying "We'll see where I will be in two years and where Ferrari will be in 2 years" when he left the Scuderia. Needless to say, Ferrari won WCC and was 1st and 2nd in the WDC in 1979, while Lauda, humiliated in the comparison with Gilles, had announced his retirement. In about 30GPs, the million of Italian fans who already back then followed Ferrari had replaced their respect for the 2 time WDC with complete admiration for the little Canadian.

I never doubted Senna, Schumacher or Montoya's talent. Not do I really consider them entirely responsible for their unfair way of dealing with their duels on the track. Let's say Gilles was the last great driver of an era which ended with his death in 1982. Senna, Schumacher, Montoya, Prost instead are the result of another era characterized by millions of dollars, media and advertising, where winning at all costs is more important then winning like a man.

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
http://www.farzadsf1...979/Dijon79.mpg

Why not read about it too while you wait:

http://www.farzadsf1...om/features.php

Originally posted by Clone

Why not read about it too while you wait:

http://www.farzadsf1...om/features.php

The high bandwidth version can be found via this link at
http://www.farzadsf1...om/dijon79.html

Originally posted by RedFever
"Has anyone ever had to denigrate Gilles to praise a multi-time champion?"

Yes, in fact Gilles was denigrated an infinite amount of times both in 1978 and 1979 to praise multi-champion Niki Lauda. Poor Enzo Ferrari was attacked so violently by those who couldn't see beyond their stat scoreboard sheets for replacing Lauda with Gilles. They supported Lauda for saying "We'll see where I will be in two years and where Ferrari will be in 2 years" when he left the Scuderia. Needless to say, Ferrari won WCC and was 1st and 2nd in the WDC in 1979, while Lauda, humiliated in the comparison with Gilles, had announced his retirement. In about 30GPs, the million of Italian fans who already back then followed Ferrari had replaced their respect for the 2 time WDC with complete admiration for the little Canadian.

I never doubted Senna, Schumacher or Montoya's talent. Not do I really consider them entirely responsible for their unfair way of dealing with their duels on the track. Let's say Gilles was the last great driver of an era which ended with his death in 1982. Senna, Schumacher, Montoya, Prost instead are the result of another era characterized by millions of dollars, media and advertising, where winning at all costs is more important then winning like a man.

that's the really true.

Originally posted by The Sensational
What I like also is the quote by Arnoux afterwards:

I almost cried when I saw the video + these comments ...

Thanks for the memories !!!

Originally posted by RedFever
Gilles would have never closed on someone, he would have simply tried to pass him back at the next turn (watch Dijon 1979 for a lesson in crazy aggressive driving without punting...). [/B]

Unless of course he was driving an F1 car from say 1992-2002 when it was no longer possible to pass the guy at the next turn unless he makes a mistake. How many times in the last decade have two drivers swapped positions on back to back laps without a breakdown, driver error, or pit stop? Yes it's possible to still pass someone immediately after a pass if they have taken a line they can't hold to get by, but now days there are one or two spots per track that any passing is possible, and if you're slower at that spot on lap X, you're going to be slower on lap X+Y. It's not a matter of sportsmanship, it's the simple fact that if you let the guy by in todays F1, you'll never be able to pass him again.


GV had exactly zero occasions when he could be passed for the championship in a WDC deciding race, and yet people pretend as though they know how he would have reacted if he were in the Beneton in 1994, or the Ferrari in 1997. I don't have a complete understanding of my own motives or what I may or may not be capable of because of them. I'm certainly not one who would be comfortable stating with absolute certainly what someone would or would not do in a hypothetical situation they never found themselves in.

george, you have a point, but, there were plenty of incidents of cars not leaving room for each other back then as well.

One thing I'm certain of is there were a lot more drivers crashing into each other back then than do today, probably for the same reason, that passing was easier. Despite that every driver of the day went out of their way to praise Gv's on-track fairness. Another telling quote from Alan Jones, than man with whom GV had (by far) the most duels:

[just after having passed Gilles for the lead] "I've done it, and once I was into the lead I built up a bit of a cushion. But as soon as I backed off a fraction there was that bloody red ****-box in my mirrors again ! Villeneuve was unbelievable like that - I mean, he never gave up. He was the best driver I ever raced against, I think, and I certainly enjoyed my fights with him more than with anyone else, because I always knew exactly where I was with him. He'd never drive straight at you or edge you into a wall, or any of that stuff."

Originally posted by mtl'78
george, you have a point, but, there were plenty of incidents of cars not leaving room for each other back then as well.

One thing I'm certain of is there were a lot more drivers crashing into each other back then than do today, probably for the same reason, that passing was easier. Despite that every driver of the day went out of their way to praise Gv's on-track fairness. Another telling quote from Alan Jones, than man with whom GV had (by far) the most duels:

Isn't there a similar quote from Mika about MS being a fair guy to race against?

I'm not here to kill or praise either Caesar, just watching with some amusement the squabble between you guys that seems to me to have gotten a tad metaphysical.

"Unless of course he was driving an F1 car from say 1992-2002 when it was no longer possible to pass the guy at the next turn unless he makes a mistake. How many times in the last decade have two drivers swapped positions on back to back laps without a breakdown, driver error, or pit stop? Yes it's possible to still pass someone immediately after a pass if they have taken a line they can't hold to get by, but now days there are one or two spots per track that any passing is possible, and if you're slower at that spot on lap X, you're going to be slower on lap X+Y. It's not a matter of sportsmanship, it's the simple fact that if you let the guy by in todays F1, you'll never be able to pass him again.


GV had exactly zero occasions when he could be passed for the championship in a WDC deciding race, and yet people pretend as though they know how he would have reacted if he were in the Beneton in 1994, or the Ferrari in 1997. I don't have a complete understanding of my own motives or what I may or may not be capable of because of them. I'm certainly not one who would be comfortable stating with absolute certainly what someone would or would not do in a hypothetical situation they never found themselves in."


Geroge, I don't think you have a point.

First, Mika Hakkinen showed that in the period you mentioned it was possible to become a WDC and it was possible to pass without lacking sportmanship. Mika was one of the most fair drivers of the last decade. Why didn't he find a way to crash into Irvine in Malaysia in 99? he could have won it then and there, but instead accepted the beating prodcued by having to fight alone against 2 Ferraris and the won fair and square in the last race. Besides, how come that the "punters" are also the "choppers"? don't you see consistency in how Monty or Schumi drive? why does it always happen to them? coincidence?????? all I know is that in Jerez 97 it was the first and only time I was ashamed of being a Ferrari fan and it wasn't even Ferrari's fault........my 2 cents worth....

Second, you must have never seen Gilles live or at least in an interview. Otherwise, you would have understood he was the most uncompromising person I have ever met. He had his own code of honor and he just was true to himself, not to you or me. For him, winning meant being better than the other guy on that specific track on that specific day. Punting him out and winning meant zero to Gilles. It is that simple. You don't need to fight for F1 WDC to show this in your personality. In fact, Schumacher break-tested Hakkinen already in F3 in macao and stole his trophy. Gilles in F. Atlantic had memorable fights with Keke Rosberg, over and over, yet neither one ever had to resort to lower himself to win a ****ing race

By the same token, Gilles valued fighting for a position more than relaxing and scoring points, hence getting into a position where the 1979 title, which he had pretty much controlled, slipped out of his hands. More mechanical problems than Jody and one silly obstinate race in Spain, meant h team order in monza and title to Jody. But the fact that Gilles so clearly had no problem following the order without any complain (right, Rubens?), shows his total committment and honesty. No, not even today he would have punted anyone. And if passing would have been impossible, then he would have moved to another series where passing was possible. He simply would have never accepted to win like Schumi (attempted) in Jerez or Senna in Suzuka. To him that was losing, not winning. He could have punted Pironi in Imola who was stealing his victory. He didn't because it wasn't his style. He lost the race, but he remained the moral winner and Didier the real loser.

Originally posted by RedFever
I think nothing else mattered in his life until very recently other than F1.

I found that comment above interesting. I think it was like that until he got married 95. After that I think it's one of the secrets behind his fantastic longlasting success? It's a bit of a cliche, I suppose. But I truly believe his wife and kids makes him being able to relax and recharge and not getting burned out from the hectic all consuming circus of being at the top of Formula One. And through them he has found the more or less perfect balance, as it seems? And I also beleive that they matter more to him than the racing does

Regarding Gilles, I remember him as the "wild" and dedicated man giving it his all, as shown in the great clip. I wasn't very old then and it was such a long time ago so I can't really say that I have a very clear memory of his racing. I seem to remember that he was a bit like Ronnie Peterson in his aproach though, which was obviously a plus in my book,as a Swede. You could say though, that the world and formula One was very different back then, which makes it hard to make comparisons between drivers now and then. I was a big Senna fan and I'm a rather big Schumacher fan now. I simply admire their skills and the level of excellence they have been able to refine their talents to. For me they are the two best drivers I've seen, when you consider the whole package of skills. I do agree that they were both highly controversial and that you could question their ethics though.

Originally posted by George Bailey


Unless of course he was driving an F1 car from say 1992-2002 when it was no longer possible to pass the guy at the next turn unless he makes a mistake. How many times in the last decade have two drivers swapped positions on back to back laps without a breakdown, driver error, or pit stop? Yes it's possible to still pass someone immediately after a pass if they have taken a line they can't hold to get by, but now days there are one or two spots per track that any passing is possible, and if you're slower at that spot on lap X, you're going to be slower on lap X+Y. It's not a matter of sportsmanship, it's the simple fact that if you let the guy by in todays F1, you'll never be able to pass him again.

Hell, I'll give credit where it's due and say that at Melbourne this year the short duel between Montoya and Schumi was F%$%$ brilliant, it gave me so much hope for this season. It was easily the most exciting stuff since Senna vs Mansell, and I honestly thought these two guys had the potential to give us a 2002 version of Dijon '79. Unfortunalty Schumi went back to his old tricks and Montoya sadly proved to be all too willing to do the same. I don't care to see drivers punt each other off and I haven't watched a GP in months.

Check out the best F1 wheel to wheel racing ever recorded.

Here is a high quality version of it:
25mb

http://www.farzadsf1...79/d79_xing.mpg

It's still THE Academy of overtaking this one. Probably as good as it gets and I doubt there will ever be something greater than this.

Originally posted by George Bailey
Isn't there a similar quote from Mika about MS being a fair guy to race against?

If there is, then I'd guess that Mika said it some time before the 2000 Belgian GP.......

Originally posted by kayemod


If there is, then I'd guess that Mika said it some time before the 2000 Belgian GP.......

...and perhaps before Macau 1990..

Originally posted by George Bailey


Isn't there a similar quote from Mika about MS being a fair guy to race against?

I'm not here to kill or praise either Caesar, just watching with some amusement the squabble between you guys that seems to me to have gotten a tad metaphysical.

I suppose the difference is that we have the proof MS is not.

Originally posted by Clatter


I suppose the difference is that we have the proof MS is not.

Can you post an MS video link that will have me on the edge of my seat as the Villeneuve vs Arnoux battle of 1979 did?

Originally posted by tojack


Can you post an MS video link that will have me on the edge of my seat as the Villeneuve vs Arnoux battle of 1979 did?

I was referring to the being fair to race against statement.

Originally posted by SchuOz
Here is a high quality version of it:
25mb

http://www.farzadsf1...79/d79_xing.mpg

Thanks SchuOz, I'd never seen more than a brief clip of this battle before - fantastic racing

For MS, maybe the battle with Wurz at Monaco, though both cars wound up out of the race ultimately ....

can u guys imagine GVi in GP Masters....

I am truly shocked by this thread!

What is going on when TNF discusses stuff from within the last 10 years???!!! (the MH/MS bit anyway)

;)

PS it's always nice to see peoples reaction to this clip when they see it for the first time, I showed it to one of my minions at work and had to scrape his jaw up off the floor afterwards.

Gilles was great - and so was Arnoux. He doesn't receive enough credit.

Originally posted by Sean L
Check out the best F1 wheel to wheel racing ever recorded.

It's not as good without Murray's commentary over the top.
And I'd venture to suggest that footage has been speeded up just a tad...