Amongst my many questions regarding the grand prix racing history, the one about the Monaco Grand Prix has always puzzled me the most. At its April 1929 inauguration, the Monaco Grand Prix had no Grande Épreuve status as had at that time the French GP, the Italian, Spanish, Belgian or the British GP. In its second year, 1930, Monaco was still considered one of the many international grand prix races, but one of importance. So, what was the status of this event in 1931 and 1932, did it change? I assume, it probably was still the same as before. But between 1933 and 1935 the Monaco GP must have obtained Grande Épreuve status because the event was part of the 1935 European Championship, which was formed by events of Grande Épreuve status only. On Tuesday, April 23, 1935, following the Grand Prix of Monaco, a special subcommittee of the International Sporting Commission (CSI) of the A.I.A.C.R. met in Monte Carlo for an important meeting. The following delegates were present: Noghès (Monaco), Pérouse (France), Fritsch and von Bayer (Germany), Mercanti and Prince del Drago (Italy), Langlois (Belgium), Sparrow (America) and Lindsay Lloyd (England).
Anthony Noghès, founder and President of the Automobile Club de Monaco, when did he begin to attend the CSI meetings on a regular basis and when did the ACM become member of the AIACR? And the Director of the Monaco Grand Prix, Charles Faroux, what did he have to say about this event in the Parisian newspaper l’Auto? They must have reported in detail each October about the outcome of the AIACR conference including decisions made by the CSI. A racing calendar for the following year was usually released after these October meetings and should have shown the Grandes Épreuves first, followed by the lesser international events including international hill climbs.
Who knows where this particular source, l’Auto, can be consulted in the French public library system. On the other hand, the Library at Centre Pompidou in Paris, which is a very accessible and friendly place, does not keep material older than 1945, I have been told.
What status had the Monaco GP during the thirties?
Started by
Hans Etzrodt
, May 08 2003 20:02
42 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
Ray Bell
-
- 80,232 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:27
The question has to be asked, Hans...
"How does an event ascend to the level of Grande Epreuve?"
I think this was probably on the minds of the ACM heads at that time, and undoubtedly they had a very Gallic plan to reach that point.
I would suggest that they turned on circumstances that made it hard for the major teams to resist turning out for this race (and don't forget it was a major showing for the Chiron/Carraciola team), and that following this path was intended to build a tradition that would see them included in the inner sanctum of GP events that mattered.
Another factor that might have played a part is the Depression. Recalling that non-necessities such as entertainment and gambling were among the most prosperous businesses in those times of hardship, is it possible that the economic situation in Monaco contributed to a more rapid rise than might otherwise be the case?
Also the setting... right in the midst of first class hotels, on the colourful Riviera, in tune with the rule-making country yet outside its direct grasp... it had the right ingredients for success.
And it needed that success... remember that there were other events taking place there all the time as well... boat races, aircraft races, was the tennis there too? It was a meeting place of international sports.
"How does an event ascend to the level of Grande Epreuve?"
I think this was probably on the minds of the ACM heads at that time, and undoubtedly they had a very Gallic plan to reach that point.
I would suggest that they turned on circumstances that made it hard for the major teams to resist turning out for this race (and don't forget it was a major showing for the Chiron/Carraciola team), and that following this path was intended to build a tradition that would see them included in the inner sanctum of GP events that mattered.
Another factor that might have played a part is the Depression. Recalling that non-necessities such as entertainment and gambling were among the most prosperous businesses in those times of hardship, is it possible that the economic situation in Monaco contributed to a more rapid rise than might otherwise be the case?
Also the setting... right in the midst of first class hotels, on the colourful Riviera, in tune with the rule-making country yet outside its direct grasp... it had the right ingredients for success.
And it needed that success... remember that there were other events taking place there all the time as well... boat races, aircraft races, was the tennis there too? It was a meeting place of international sports.
#3
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:38
@Ray, I'll agree in your interpretation about the Monaco GP and the special Monaco atmosphere, which helps Monaco to "raise" to the level of Grande Épreuve.
@Hans, what was the level of the Monaco GP after 1935, it wasn't a Grande Épreuve in 1939. Or means Grande Épreuve a special code for a special status of a race?
@Hans, what was the level of the Monaco GP after 1935, it wasn't a Grande Épreuve in 1939. Or means Grande Épreuve a special code for a special status of a race?
#4
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:40
To my knowledge this was determined by the CSI. Since not every AIACR member was accepted into the CSI Committee, it would be interesting to know when the ACM was accepted as member of the AIACR and possibly at that same time became also member of the CSI but not necessarily so. It could have happened at a later point in time.Originally posted by Ray Bell
..."How does an event ascend to the level of Grande Epreuve?"...
#5
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:43
Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
To my knowledge this was determined by the CSI. Since not every AIACR member was accepted into the CSI Committee, it would be interesting to know when the ACM was accepted as member of the AIACR and possibly at that same time became also member of the CSI but not necessarily so. It could have happened at a later point in time.
Fastes lap to you answering my question, only 2 min. Great.
#6
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 08 May 2003 - 22:02
I wrote about this topic, click on List Guidelines, next click item #2, once you get to the site: http://www.kolumbus....ellman/gpw0.htm The Monaco GP was not held in 1939.Originally posted by Holger Merten
...what was the level of the Monaco GP after 1935, it wasn't a Grande Épreuve in 1939. Or means Grande Épreuve a special code for a special status of a race?
#7
Marcor
-
- 1,198 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 10 May 2003 - 12:20
Hans, I've consulted L'Auto twice at The Bibliothèque François Mittérand (The big Library at Paris). This is not really a friendly place, too big. You had to ask a magnetic Research Car. It cost you 4.5 Euros for 2 days (valid 1 year). L'Auto is in microfilms. You can copy but you had to buy an other card, and You can't make it by yourself, so You had to wait and you loose many times...
In two days, I've read two bobbins of the year 1925 (January-March) and 3 of 1932 (April-September). See my 1000st post...
In two days, I've read two bobbins of the year 1925 (January-March) and 3 of 1932 (April-September). See my 1000st post...
#8
robert dick
-
- 1,300 posts
- Joined: October 02
Member
Posted 10 May 2003 - 12:59
L’Auto in the Bibliothèque Nationale (= Bibliothèque Mitterand) :
The access to the collections is easier if you have a “research certificate” from an university or technical school (just a piece of paper).
L’Auto is also available at the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers/Paris, and – in Germany - some incomplete collections at the TH Stuttgart, the TU Berlin and the Deutsches Museum/München.
The former Panhard archives and a lot of contemporary magazine collections have been included in the archives of the “Schlumpf Museum” (Musée National de l’Automobile) at Mulhouse (not far from Basel) – (I don’t know the exact content).
The access to the collections is easier if you have a “research certificate” from an university or technical school (just a piece of paper).
L’Auto is also available at the Conservatoire des Arts et Métiers/Paris, and – in Germany - some incomplete collections at the TH Stuttgart, the TU Berlin and the Deutsches Museum/München.
The former Panhard archives and a lot of contemporary magazine collections have been included in the archives of the “Schlumpf Museum” (Musée National de l’Automobile) at Mulhouse (not far from Basel) – (I don’t know the exact content).
#9
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 10 May 2003 - 13:28
@Hans, thanks for the Link to Leif's site.
@ Robert, didn't know that the Schlumpf Museum has a Library. They have a great collection of cars. But a Library? That would be great, Two new magazines with sources
not far from home.
@ Robert, didn't know that the Schlumpf Museum has a Library. They have a great collection of cars. But a Library? That would be great, Two new magazines with sources
not far from home.
#10
robert dick
-
- 1,300 posts
- Joined: October 02
Member
Posted 10 May 2003 - 13:51
Schlumpf :
The Panhard archives were included when the collection was renamed Musée National de l’Automobile. Later some magazine collections and other small factory archives have been added.
I don’t know the current situation. Fifteen years ago, the archives were easily accessible after having "pris rendez-vous”. Normally the archives were closed.
The current situation has to be clarified.
The Panhard archives were included when the collection was renamed Musée National de l’Automobile. Later some magazine collections and other small factory archives have been added.
I don’t know the current situation. Fifteen years ago, the archives were easily accessible after having "pris rendez-vous”. Normally the archives were closed.
The current situation has to be clarified.
#11
Egon Thurner
-
- 305 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 10 May 2003 - 14:00
Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Amongst my many questions regarding the grand prix racing history, the one about the Monaco Grand Prix has always puzzled me the most. ..... In its second year, 1930, Monaco was still considered one of the many international grand prix races, but one of importance. So, what was the status of this event in 1931 and 1932, did it change? I assume, it probably was still the same as before. But between 1933 and 1935 the Monaco GP must have obtained Grande Épreuve status because the event was part of the 1935 European Championship, which was formed by events of Grande Épreuve status only.
That question puzzles me too, since a long time. And I always wondered, why you have listed the Monaco GP as a Grande Epreuve since 1930.
But the next question is: If the Monaco GP was a Grande Epreuve during the years 1933 - 1935, what about the rules ??? For example the minimum-race-distance (5 hours, later 500 km) and maybe, for 1934 even the 750kg-rule (Venables) ?
#12
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 10 May 2003 - 15:18
I have to remove the Grande Épreuve status from the 1930-1934 races.Originally posted by Egon Thurner
...I always wondered, why you have listed the Monaco GP as a Grande Epreuve since 1930...
#13
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 18 May 2003 - 06:40
Robert, thanks for the lead. Once at the Deutsches Museum in München this summer, I will make a brief survey to determine what years & issues of L'Auto are available.Originally posted by robert dick
L’Auto is also available ... – in Germany - some incomplete collections at the TH Stuttgart, the TU Berlin and the Deutsches Museum/München...
#14
Don Capps
-
- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 19 May 2003 - 00:53
Let me muddy the waters by asking when did the CSI of the AIACR begin to first use the term Grande Epreuve? I was under the impression that this was a term which originated in 1934 or 1935 when the discussions concerning the European Championship were going on. Considering that the Swiss GP had a long and distinguished history of all of one year when it was included as a Grande Epreuve in the Euro Championship, Monaco getting such a coveted status had to have been a shoo-in....
That is, Unless I Am Very Much Mistaken.....
That is, Unless I Am Very Much Mistaken.....
#15
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 19 May 2003 - 08:34
The ALLGEMEINE AUTOMOBIL ZEITUNG (Wien) reported in # 22 of November 15, 1925 about the Paris meetings and the international sporting calendar. The calendar text began, ..." Further, the dates were determined of the following five Grandes Épreuves, which count towards the 1926 Automobile World Championship:Originally posted by Don Capps
...when did the CSI of the AIACR begin to first use the term Grande Epreuve? ...
May 30 - Grand Prix of Indianapolis
June 27 - Grand Prix of the French Automobile Club (Miramas)
July 25 - Grand Prix of Europe, organized by the Royal Spanish Automobile Club (San Sebastian)
August 2 - Grand Prix of the Royal English Automobile Club (500-mile race on the Brooklands track)
September 5 - Grand Prix of Italy."
It might indeed be of interest when the term 'Grande Épreuve' appeared first but for the issue at hand, the Monaco Grand Prix, it should suffice that the term 'Grande Épreuve' had been in use already for years.
#16
Don Capps
-
- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 19 May 2003 - 15:20
Hnas,
It was 1925!!!... 
Gulp, I just glanced at my notes (somehow getting 1935 out of 1925), made a quick leap to a wrong conclusion, and therfore was thinking the wrong championship.
Thanks for setting me straight! As usual.....
It was 1925!!!... Gulp, I just glanced at my notes (somehow getting 1935 out of 1925), made a quick leap to a wrong conclusion, and therfore was thinking the wrong championship.
Thanks for setting me straight! As usual.....
#17
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 31 August 2003 - 11:18
Here a snippet out of my recent acquisitions: AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #92 of Tuesday, November 7, 1933.
The Grand Prix of Monaco, as is generally known, belongs since one year to the official Grands Prix and will be held next year to the new racing formula. The regulations, according to which the distance has to be 500 km in length, will however not be applicable. The 1934 Grand Prix of Monaco will lead again over 100 laps of the 3.18 km long circuit, therefore 318 km.[signed] x.
Hence, by deduction, the 1932 Monaco Grand Prix was the first that possessed Grande Épeuve status.
The Grand Prix of Monaco, as is generally known, belongs since one year to the official Grands Prix and will be held next year to the new racing formula. The regulations, according to which the distance has to be 500 km in length, will however not be applicable. The 1934 Grand Prix of Monaco will lead again over 100 laps of the 3.18 km long circuit, therefore 318 km.[signed] x.
Hence, by deduction, the 1932 Monaco Grand Prix was the first that possessed Grande Épeuve status.
#18
Egon Thurner
-
- 305 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 31 August 2003 - 11:24
Well, depends on how you read this note? What means 'belongs since one year'? Also possible, that the race on April, 4. in 1933 was the first one with 'Grande Epreuve-status' ?
#19
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 31 August 2003 - 11:41
Egon, I thought about it, of course. I would have expected the text to read "since this year" if it referred to the 1933 event. But I will look further while folding this humongous stack of DIN A3 copies one by one, numbering, sorting and binding. A tedious business it is.
Advertisement
#20
Egon Thurner
-
- 305 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 31 August 2003 - 11:52
Nevertheles, there are two important infos in this short note. First it says, that the Monaco GP was no Grande Épreuve until 1931 at least, and second it seems, that in fact the Monaco GP 1934 was officially accepted not to fulfill the 500km-rule.
Interesting also the term 'official Grand Prix'. Maybe we should carry that detail into the Grand Prix-status thread?
Interesting also the term 'official Grand Prix'. Maybe we should carry that detail into the Grand Prix-status thread?
#21
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 31 August 2003 - 12:23
It actually reads:Der Grosse Preis von Monaco, der bekanntlich seit einem Jahre zu den offiziellen Grossen Preisen gehört, wird nächstes Jahr nach der neuen Rennformel ausgetragen werden...
#22
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 31 August 2003 - 23:39
Here is more: AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #82 p3 of Tuesday, October3, 1933
Next Year’s Grand Prix Calendar. As has been reported in the issue before last, the provisional calendar for next years Grands Prix has been established at the recently held meeting of the International Sporting Commission [CSI] in Paris. It might have surprised in Swiss sporting circles that the planned Grand Prix of Switzerland was not mentioned in the list. This in no way means that either the registration of our Grand Prix did not occur or was not taken into consideration. In the International Sporting Codex the eight Grands Prix of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Italy, the Tourist Trophy from England, the 500-Mile race from Indianapolis are namely designated as preferred international events, so called “Grandes Épreuves”, which have the benefit of a certain privilege in regards of fixing dates. To this list was added this year the Grand Prix of Monaco. Once the Swiss Grand Prix can lock back to a few repetitions and thereby have proven to be a regular event, on the other hand through participation also have proven that it is an international event, then the National Sporting Commission will have the possibility to apply for recognition of our Grand Prix as such a “Grande Épreuve”.
Next Year’s Grand Prix Calendar. As has been reported in the issue before last, the provisional calendar for next years Grands Prix has been established at the recently held meeting of the International Sporting Commission [CSI] in Paris. It might have surprised in Swiss sporting circles that the planned Grand Prix of Switzerland was not mentioned in the list. This in no way means that either the registration of our Grand Prix did not occur or was not taken into consideration. In the International Sporting Codex the eight Grands Prix of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Italy, the Tourist Trophy from England, the 500-Mile race from Indianapolis are namely designated as preferred international events, so called “Grandes Épreuves”, which have the benefit of a certain privilege in regards of fixing dates. To this list was added this year the Grand Prix of Monaco. Once the Swiss Grand Prix can lock back to a few repetitions and thereby have proven to be a regular event, on the other hand through participation also have proven that it is an international event, then the National Sporting Commission will have the possibility to apply for recognition of our Grand Prix as such a “Grande Épreuve”.
#23
fines
-
- 9,647 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 01 September 2003 - 14:19
Thanks, Hans!
What a neat find!
__________________
But if the cause be not good
The king himself has a heavy reckoning to make
When all those legs and arms and heads
Chopped off in a battle
Shall join together at the latter day
And cry all 'We died at such a place'
Some swearing, some crying for a surgeon
Some upon their wives left poor behind them
Some upon the debts they owe
Some upon their children rawly left
I am afeared there are few die well
That die in a battle
For how can they charitably dispose of any thing
When blood is their argument?
Now, if these men do not die well
It will be a black matter
For the king that led them to it
What a neat find!
__________________
But if the cause be not good
The king himself has a heavy reckoning to make
When all those legs and arms and heads
Chopped off in a battle
Shall join together at the latter day
And cry all 'We died at such a place'
Some swearing, some crying for a surgeon
Some upon their wives left poor behind them
Some upon the debts they owe
Some upon their children rawly left
I am afeared there are few die well
That die in a battle
For how can they charitably dispose of any thing
When blood is their argument?
Now, if these men do not die well
It will be a black matter
For the king that led them to it
#24
Felix Muelas
-
- 1,209 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 01 September 2003 - 21:10
Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
...In the International Sporting Codex .../... are namely designated as preferred international events, so called “Grandes Épreuves”, which have the benefit of a certain privilege in regards of fixing dates...
Well, THIS is really a curiosity...
Am I understanding correctly what the statement above is saying, simplifying the "conversion" from a Grand Prix status to a Grande Epreuve status by means of a "certain privilege in regards of fixing dates"?
Not bad for the headaches it has given historians over decades...
But is that all?
Felix
#25
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 02 September 2003 - 00:15
See my post #19, then you know that I am looking for more or at least make such an attempt.Originally posted by Felix Muelas
...But is that all?...
#26
Felix Muelas
-
- 1,209 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 02 September 2003 - 09:41
Sorry, Hans, no disrespect meant !
Actually I am "glued" to the screen expecting to see some of your discoveries being shared ;)
What I was actually meaning was that, after decades of a very free-minded and imaginative approach to the honourability (let's call it that way) and almost mythical essence of a "Grande Epreuve", the fact that the status looks, from that note, to be different from a Grand Prix just because it has some priority on the choice of dates...well, you might agree that it's a bit iconoclastic, after all...
Actually I am "glued" to the screen expecting to see some of your discoveries being shared ;)
What I was actually meaning was that, after decades of a very free-minded and imaginative approach to the honourability (let's call it that way) and almost mythical essence of a "Grande Epreuve", the fact that the status looks, from that note, to be different from a Grand Prix just because it has some priority on the choice of dates...well, you might agree that it's a bit iconoclastic, after all...
#27
alessandro silva
-
- 758 posts
- Joined: August 00
Member
Posted 02 September 2003 - 12:34
The status of Grande Epreuve gave the exclusive right of the date chosen by the single organisers. There were also lists of Epreuves à Priorité, of which each country had the right to a certain number proportional to their relative importance in motor sport. No other international racing was allowed in those dates provided that there was no conflict with the dates of the the Grandes Epreuves. The great sports car races, such as the Le Mans 24 hours or the Mille Miglia or the Tourist Trophy were Epreuves à Priorité, though the status of the TT is uncertain for the 30s, when some source lists it as a Grande Epreuve. The title of Grande Epreuve lost its importance with the introduction of the World Drivers Championship, since its rounds gained the same priviliges.
#28
Felix Muelas
-
- 1,209 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 02 September 2003 - 12:40
...but with the above explanation at hand it makes somehow a lot of sense.
Grazie Alessandro!
Grazie Alessandro!
#29
Egon Thurner
-
- 305 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 02 September 2003 - 13:01
Gentlemen, this becomes one of the most interesting thread of the last months. The next step to go seems very clear to me: compiling a full list of all 'Grande Épreuves' and of all 'Épreuves à Priorité'. Or is this work already done, and I just don't know?
Unfortunately, I feel and fear, I myself will be more a spectator than an active agent in this challenge.
Unfortunately, I feel and fear, I myself will be more a spectator than an active agent in this challenge.
#30
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 05 September 2003 - 06:03
Finally I found the preview: AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #35 p2 of Friday, April 21, 1933
GRAND PRIX OF MONACO
coming Sunday
Coming Sunday brings a climax in this year’s international automobile sporting season. For the fifth time the unequaled interesting Grand Prix of Monaco will be held in Monte Carlo. The significance of this unique circuit race increased from year to year and already this season it will be staged for the first time as official international Grand Prix. The Monte Carlo race holds a very special position in the international auto sport…
...and here the beginning of the race report: AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #36 p2 of Tuesday, April 25, 1933
Grand Prix of Monaco
Monte Carlo, 23. April 1933.
This race can lay claim to be not only the most original of its kind but in the brief period of its five year existence it has taken a successful development as no other sporting event on the continent. Therefore it does not surprise that the AIACR accepted this year’s race in the exclusive circle of the eight international Grands Prix. Also the best drivers of high repute followed the invitation to compete in the event that became so famous, so quickly…
GRAND PRIX OF MONACO
coming Sunday
Coming Sunday brings a climax in this year’s international automobile sporting season. For the fifth time the unequaled interesting Grand Prix of Monaco will be held in Monte Carlo. The significance of this unique circuit race increased from year to year and already this season it will be staged for the first time as official international Grand Prix. The Monte Carlo race holds a very special position in the international auto sport…
...and here the beginning of the race report: AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #36 p2 of Tuesday, April 25, 1933
Grand Prix of Monaco
Monte Carlo, 23. April 1933.
This race can lay claim to be not only the most original of its kind but in the brief period of its five year existence it has taken a successful development as no other sporting event on the continent. Therefore it does not surprise that the AIACR accepted this year’s race in the exclusive circle of the eight international Grands Prix. Also the best drivers of high repute followed the invitation to compete in the event that became so famous, so quickly…
#31
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:04
I have just changed that. The 1929-1932 events are marked now as regular international events, while the following Monaco GP races remain as Grandes Épreuves.Originally posted by Egon Thurner
...I always wondered, why you have listed the Monaco GP as a Grande Epreuve since 1930...
#32
Egon Thurner
-
- 305 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:22
As quoted, the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE worked out that the significance of this unique circuit race increased from year to year and that in the brief period of its five year existence it has taken a successful development as no other sporting event on the continent.
Hans , you should consider the race of 1929 not to be a major event - despite the great history of the race ..
Hans , you should consider the race of 1929 not to be a major event - despite the great history of the race ..
#33
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 06 September 2003 - 20:35
Granted, there were just a few of the top rung GP drivers attending at the first Monaco GP, yet with already famous Caracciola and similarly well known Bergkönig Hans Stuck present. So it was in my eyes an important international race without factory participation, although Caracciola and Stuck both had factory backing, others probably too.
#34
Leif Snellman
-
- 1,136 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 07 September 2003 - 09:19
So, when did CSI stop using the expression "Grande Épreuve"?
#35
Vitesse2
-
- 41,860 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 12 September 2003 - 10:55
Epreuves à Priorité for 1939, as announced in the Light Car, Nov 4th 1938 page 801.
2 Jan South African GP
16 Apr Monaco GP
22 Apr Cork GP
7 May Elaintarhanajo-Djurgaardsloppet
30 May Indianapolis
25 June Belgian GP
9 July French GP
23 July German GP
20 August Swiss GP
2 September Tourist Trophy
10 September Italian GP
24 September Masaryk GP
8 October Rio GP
Note that the TT was Britain's Epreuve à Priorité, rather than the Donington GP, and that comparatively minor countries like Ireland and Finland and even Brazil were included. In view of the prevailing international situation it's rather humbling to note that there was a Masaryk GP scheduled for 1939 - I've seen a contemporaneous note in the Autocar couched in rather incredulous language that there was going to be a race in Czechoslovakia at all.
Strangely, some other minor nations' scheduled GPs/major races were not Epreuves à Priorité: the Prix de Luxembourg on June 4th and the Polish GP (either June 11th or 18th) for example. Portugal had two races on the calendar - Estoril on June 4th and Vila Real on June 18th - but no Epreuve à Priorité.
So, it would appear that if the term Grande Epreuve had any official status, it was merely synonymous with Epreuve à Priorité as far as the calendar was concerned, which does nothing to sort out the exact status of the TT!
However, regarding Alessandro's point about no other racing on the dates of Epreuves à Priorité: the Coronation Trophy at Crystal Palace, the Cairo Rally and Circuit of Campione were all scheduled on the weekend of the [later cancelled] Monaco GP; the Hamburger Stadtpark races and Tripoli GP clashed with the Elaintarhanajo-Djurgaardsloppet; the Leinster Trophy was the day before the French GP and both the London GP and the Exhibition Grand Prix at Zurich were to have taken place on the same weekend as the Rio GP. Hmmm...
2 Jan South African GP
16 Apr Monaco GP
22 Apr Cork GP
7 May Elaintarhanajo-Djurgaardsloppet
30 May Indianapolis
25 June Belgian GP
9 July French GP
23 July German GP
20 August Swiss GP
2 September Tourist Trophy
10 September Italian GP
24 September Masaryk GP
8 October Rio GP
Note that the TT was Britain's Epreuve à Priorité, rather than the Donington GP, and that comparatively minor countries like Ireland and Finland and even Brazil were included. In view of the prevailing international situation it's rather humbling to note that there was a Masaryk GP scheduled for 1939 - I've seen a contemporaneous note in the Autocar couched in rather incredulous language that there was going to be a race in Czechoslovakia at all.
Strangely, some other minor nations' scheduled GPs/major races were not Epreuves à Priorité: the Prix de Luxembourg on June 4th and the Polish GP (either June 11th or 18th) for example. Portugal had two races on the calendar - Estoril on June 4th and Vila Real on June 18th - but no Epreuve à Priorité.
So, it would appear that if the term Grande Epreuve had any official status, it was merely synonymous with Epreuve à Priorité as far as the calendar was concerned, which does nothing to sort out the exact status of the TT!
However, regarding Alessandro's point about no other racing on the dates of Epreuves à Priorité: the Coronation Trophy at Crystal Palace, the Cairo Rally and Circuit of Campione were all scheduled on the weekend of the [later cancelled] Monaco GP; the Hamburger Stadtpark races and Tripoli GP clashed with the Elaintarhanajo-Djurgaardsloppet; the Leinster Trophy was the day before the French GP and both the London GP and the Exhibition Grand Prix at Zurich were to have taken place on the same weekend as the Rio GP. Hmmm...
#36
alessandro silva
-
- 758 posts
- Joined: August 00
Member
Posted 12 September 2003 - 12:13
a) Priorité is for the date. It is out of the question that it was a CSI official title pre/post WWII. It would be nice to know how the rule was applied.
b) It would be also nice to know if Grande Epreuve was an official CSI title and how it stood relatively to the the priorité. I do not think that it was synonymous.
As a further example, below Epreuves a priorité for 1948:
18/4 Rio,
25/4 or 2/5 Prague,
9/5 Helsinki,
16/05 Monaco,
31/05 indianapolis,
20/06 Belgium,
27/6 - 4/7 Polish Endurance race,
4/7 Europe (Bern),
18/7 ACF,
7/8 Zandvoort,
21/8 RAC TT,
5/9 Italy
We know that Prague, Poland and RAC TT did not take place and Zandvoort became a British Club event. On the other hand the Marseille organizers cancelled (had to?) their Grand Prix for conflicting date with Monaco.
b) It would be also nice to know if Grande Epreuve was an official CSI title and how it stood relatively to the the priorité. I do not think that it was synonymous.
As a further example, below Epreuves a priorité for 1948:
18/4 Rio,
25/4 or 2/5 Prague,
9/5 Helsinki,
16/05 Monaco,
31/05 indianapolis,
20/06 Belgium,
27/6 - 4/7 Polish Endurance race,
4/7 Europe (Bern),
18/7 ACF,
7/8 Zandvoort,
21/8 RAC TT,
5/9 Italy
We know that Prague, Poland and RAC TT did not take place and Zandvoort became a British Club event. On the other hand the Marseille organizers cancelled (had to?) their Grand Prix for conflicting date with Monaco.
#37
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 16 October 2005 - 11:06
I found one more snippet that caught my attention while leafing through my magazines. Thought it could be entertaining for some of you gentlemen.
The International Sporting Commission [CSI] of the A.I.A.C.R. held their traditional fall meeting in Paris on 23. September 1932. In No.80, pg.5 of the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE the Grands Prix dates for the 1933 season plus comments were announced as follows:
23. April: Grand Prix of Monaco
30. or 31. May: Grand Prix of America [Indy 500]
4. June: Grand Prix of France
25. June: Grand Prix of Italy
9. July: Grand Prix of Belgium
23. July: Grand Prix of Germany
2. September: Grand Prix of Great Britain
24. September: Grand Prix of Spain
It is noteworthy that the circuit race of Monte Carlo has now moved up also into the row of international "Grands Prix"; thereby this event now belongs ultimately to the international races of the official first class.
A further important point in the talks formed the regulation about the application of the title "Grand Prix". It was decided to leave the decision about the choice of the title "Grand Prix" to each national A. C., who at their own discretion can name events with this designation in their territory. Decisive for the bestowal of the title remains the significance of the race. Only an occasion of international importance may be named with it. The bestowal of the title "Grand Prix" in conjunction with the country’s name is solely reserved for the national A. C. in question.
The International Sporting Commission [CSI] of the A.I.A.C.R. held their traditional fall meeting in Paris on 23. September 1932. In No.80, pg.5 of the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE the Grands Prix dates for the 1933 season plus comments were announced as follows:
23. April: Grand Prix of Monaco
30. or 31. May: Grand Prix of America [Indy 500]
4. June: Grand Prix of France
25. June: Grand Prix of Italy
9. July: Grand Prix of Belgium
23. July: Grand Prix of Germany
2. September: Grand Prix of Great Britain
24. September: Grand Prix of Spain
It is noteworthy that the circuit race of Monte Carlo has now moved up also into the row of international "Grands Prix"; thereby this event now belongs ultimately to the international races of the official first class.
A further important point in the talks formed the regulation about the application of the title "Grand Prix". It was decided to leave the decision about the choice of the title "Grand Prix" to each national A. C., who at their own discretion can name events with this designation in their territory. Decisive for the bestowal of the title remains the significance of the race. Only an occasion of international importance may be named with it. The bestowal of the title "Grand Prix" in conjunction with the country’s name is solely reserved for the national A. C. in question.
#38
Vitesse2
-
- 41,860 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 16 October 2005 - 11:44
It's also noteworthy that the Tourist Trophy (the British event on September 2nd) is the only European event for non-Formula cars. This presumably means that it did have Grande Epreuve status, rather than merely being an Epreuve à Priorité.
#39
anjakub
-
- 612 posts
- Joined: October 01
Member
Posted 25 October 2005 - 17:20
Originally posted by alessandro silva
As a further example, below Epreuves a priorité for 1948:
18/4 Rio,
25/4 or 2/5 Prague,
9/5 Helsinki,
16/05 Monaco,
31/05 indianapolis,
20/06 Belgium,
27/6 - 4/7 Polish Endurance race,
4/7 Europe (Bern),
18/7 ACF,
7/8 Zandvoort,
21/8 RAC TT,
5/9 Italy
We know that Prague, Poland and RAC TT did not take place...
It is not truth. Polish event took place on 25 June - 4 July, but it was rally - XIV Miedzynarodowy Rajd Automobilklubu Polski (14th International Rally of Automobile Club of Poland), now known as Rajd Polski (Rally Poland).
In 1939 this event received from A.I.A.C.R. official name - Grand Prix Polski (Grand Prix of Poland).
Advertisement
#40
Ray Bell
-
- 80,232 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 25 October 2005 - 21:19
An interesting snippet, Hans...
I especially like the right of bestowal of the title falling to the ACN of the relevant country. Had there been any previous ruling on that?
I especially like the right of bestowal of the title falling to the ACN of the relevant country. Had there been any previous ruling on that?
#41
Hans Etzrodt
-
- 3,188 posts
- Joined: July 00
Member
Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:56
Ray, AFAIR this matter did not appear in prior reports about CSI or AIACR meetings.
#42
Ray Bell
-
- 80,232 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:19
Thanks Hans... that might have some bearing on some arguments about the place...
Like, for instance, the 1927 Australian Grand Prix.
Like, for instance, the 1927 Australian Grand Prix.
#43
Rob29
-
- 3,582 posts
- Joined: January 01
Member
Posted 26 October 2005 - 07:48
This certainly applies in UK,where the RAC (now MSA) will not allow any other event to be called Grand Prix.Originally posted by Ray Bell
An interesting snippet, Hans...
I especially like the right of bestowal of the title falling to the ACN of the relevant country. Had there been any previous ruling on that?
