Ive just bought one. Utterly fantastic motor car, comfortable, handling and performance that is just superb, and bloody good fuel economy if driven sensibly...
So why are they so cheap? I had the choice of a Porsche 928 or a new Hyundai...insurance through Shannons was more than reasonable, and so far as I can tell parts aren`t that much worse than my fathers Toyota Camry... what was it that devalued the 928 so dramaticly over the 911, the water cooled engine?, the fact that the engine was at the wrong end? the v8 instead of a flat 6? the lack of competition pedigree? Surely any hand built Porsche ( unlike the Audi built 924/944 ) should be worth more?
Why didnt the Porsche 928 achieve greatness??
Why is the Porsche 928 so unloved?
Started by
stuartbrs
, Dec 05 2003 14:50
99 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
Don Capps
-
- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 15:08
Until I actually drove one, I was not all that impressed with the 928. However, after that, I wished that I had the resources to purchase one. I thought it was an excelllent car and -- gasp! -- liked it better than the 911's I had driven.
A good question and I am not sure that there is a truly logical answer.
A good question and I am not sure that there is a truly logical answer.
#3
Brun
-
- 511 posts
- Joined: April 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 15:13
Although I've never driven one, I love that car. The looks and technology are wonderful. But you already gave the answer in your question - the engine's no boxer and it's on the wrong side of the car. In the eyes of most Porsche fans, that's reason enough to loath it.
#4
stuartbrs
-
- 801 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 15:16
when they first came out here in Australia my school mates and I always thought the contemporary 911`s looked better... but now that I have one parked in my driveway I just cannot believe how good looking a car it really is, and how wonderful it is to drive, its my everyday car and I do quite a few km`s up and down the east coast of Tassie, I wake up each morning now positively drooling over the journey to work, something that had become a chore untill I got the 928...
Didnt most of the works competition drivers prefer the 928 over the 911?
Didnt most of the works competition drivers prefer the 928 over the 911?
#5
stuartbrs
-
- 801 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 15:20
to Brun..
I suspect that your right, the Porsche purists want a flat six in the rear of the car...
but does any other manufacturer on earth have the same type cast problem that Porsche has?
Even Ferrari purists dont demand a front engined v12.. why did Porsche become so tied into flat 6`s mounted behind the rear axle? ( so far as their consumers are concerned )
I suspect that your right, the Porsche purists want a flat six in the rear of the car...
but does any other manufacturer on earth have the same type cast problem that Porsche has?
Even Ferrari purists dont demand a front engined v12.. why did Porsche become so tied into flat 6`s mounted behind the rear axle? ( so far as their consumers are concerned )
#6
Brun
-
- 511 posts
- Joined: April 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 15:49
Originally posted by stuartbrs
to Brun..
I suspect that your right, the Porsche purists want a flat six in the rear of the car...
but does any other manufacturer on earth have the same type cast problem that Porsche has?
Even Ferrari purists dont demand a front engined v12.. why did Porsche become so tied into flat 6`s mounted behind the rear axle? ( so far as their consumers are concerned )
Well, turn the question around: would Aston Martin build an air-cooled rear-engine design? Why certain designs are considered the-thing-to-have for one manufacturer and out-of-the-question for the other is, well, just illogical. It's all about image, gut feeling, emotion.
I don't think Porsche minds, though. After those few front-engine experiments, they turned on their heels and got back to the same old flat VW Beetle look with engines in the back. That's still what a Porsche sportscar looks like, today.
Hope I'm not standing on someone's toes here
#7
BRG
-
- 25,951 posts
- Joined: September 99
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 16:13
Of course, another symptom of Porsche purism has been the antipathy towards the 4x4 Cayenne. And historically, I recall that the VW/Porsche 914/6 was viewed very sceptically by purists (not without some reason, to be fair) as was the 924.
Whilst some other manufacturers are saddled with some sort of expectations - BMW don't make FWD cars for instance - it seems that Porsche is the most serious case - a sort of "Flat Six or Die" philosphy.
Whilst some other manufacturers are saddled with some sort of expectations - BMW don't make FWD cars for instance - it seems that Porsche is the most serious case - a sort of "Flat Six or Die" philosphy.
#8
bill moffat
-
- 1,411 posts
- Joined: October 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 16:19
...and the 928 had a 100% finishing record at Le Mans. In 1983 Patrick Gonin had the first of his many Le Mans adventures in a road-going 928S. The car was virtually standard apart from a rather impressive pearlescent paint job. The car rumbled around to finish first of the non-classifieds in "21st" position.
Patrick went on to more competitive machinery including Rondeau, Kremer Porsche and the frightening WR's. Patrick is a real gent and now runs the "Formule Nouvelle" hospitality group. If you want to treat yourself next year then book a Le Mans weekend with F.Nouvelle, you will not be disappointed !
Patrick went on to more competitive machinery including Rondeau, Kremer Porsche and the frightening WR's. Patrick is a real gent and now runs the "Formule Nouvelle" hospitality group. If you want to treat yourself next year then book a Le Mans weekend with F.Nouvelle, you will not be disappointed !
#9
CONOSUR
-
- 10,647 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 16:31
Originally posted by stuartbrs
...Utterly fantastic motor car, comfortable, handling and performance that is just superb, and bloody good fuel economy if driven sensibly...
Very true.Also very true. In addition, the dual-disc clutch led to lots of complaints as being very expensive to repair (though I never heard too much about it as the models years went on), so lots of automatics came to market....the water cooled engine...at the wrong end...the v8 instead of a flat 6...the lack of competition pedigree...
Other than that, the main problem for the car here in America was that it was perceived as being just plain ugly.
Shortly after buying a new Carrera, the local Porsche dealer invited me to test drive all the new models at a regional road circuit. By far, the 928 was the most enjoyable drive for all the reasons you listed above.
928s are probably the best 'sleeper' bargains on the market today. Enjoy your car. You got a good one.
#10
petefenelon
-
- 4,815 posts
- Joined: August 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 16:45
Originally posted by BRG
Of course, another symptom of Porsche purism has been the antipathy towards the 4x4 Cayenne. And historically, I recall that the VW/Porsche 914/6 was viewed very sceptically by purists (not without some reason, to be fair) as was the 924.
Whilst some other manufacturers are saddled with some sort of expectations - BMW don't make FWD cars for instance - it seems that Porsche is the most serious case - a sort of "Flat Six or Die" philosphy.
The Cayenne does suffer from looking like a Jeep Grand Cherokee surprised a 1960s 911 on a dark night though - it's a seriously ugly piece of kit.
I don't think Porsche has the "flat six or die" philosophy - it's Porsche fans and owners!
#11
Brian O Flaherty
-
- 2,668 posts
- Joined: May 01
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 16:47
Originally posted by BRG
Whilst some other manufacturers are saddled with some sort of expectations - BMW don't make FWD cars for instance
Until they went for the 'lets shoot fish in a barrel' rolling fashion item that is the new Mini.
#12
Ruairidh
-
- 1,074 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 16:49
As a 911 devotee, I think much of the generalizations above about Porsche owners are pretty correct. The die-hards like their P-cars to be traditional and racing based.
That "bad idea brilliantly executed" concept of having an air-cooled engine at the back of the car still (rightly or wrongly) sets my pulse racing Somewhat ironically, many people (myself included) are faster in more traditionally balanced cars but hey - who said love had to be rational?
As for the 928, they are very good cars in their own right with potentially prohibitive maintenance costs. As a long distance grand tourer they still are a great choice. They attract a very passionate ownership - but oddly I cannot think of any 911 owner who has one as well as a 911 (I'm sure they exist but I don't know them).
Incidentally to some degree the current 911 (the 996) has also failed to attract many of the die-hards (although the GT3 is beginning to attract more).
That "bad idea brilliantly executed" concept of having an air-cooled engine at the back of the car still (rightly or wrongly) sets my pulse racing
Somewhat ironically, many people (myself included) are faster in more traditionally balanced cars but hey - who said love had to be rational?As for the 928, they are very good cars in their own right with potentially prohibitive maintenance costs. As a long distance grand tourer they still are a great choice. They attract a very passionate ownership - but oddly I cannot think of any 911 owner who has one as well as a 911 (I'm sure they exist but I don't know them).
Incidentally to some degree the current 911 (the 996) has also failed to attract many of the die-hards (although the GT3 is beginning to attract more).
#13
Fortymark
-
- 5,929 posts
- Joined: April 03
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 18:44
It´s an great car! I have owned one and I miss it...
I´m actually looking for an -87 928S4 ClubSport but there aren´t many around. Lighter, stiffer and more powerfull. And yes, it´s faster than the GT or the GTS...
The 911 may be more fun to drive but the 928 is still great.
I´m actually looking for an -87 928S4 ClubSport but there aren´t many around. Lighter, stiffer and more powerfull. And yes, it´s faster than the GT or the GTS...
The 911 may be more fun to drive but the 928 is still great.
#14
Racer.Demon
-
- 1,722 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 19:09
Originally posted by Brun
Although I've never driven one, I love that car. The looks and technology are wonderful. But you already gave the answer in your question - the engine's no boxer and it's on the wrong side of the car. In the eyes of most Porsche fans, that's reason enough to loath it.
Same with "real" quattro vs. anything that isn't but is called "quattro" nonetheless. You have purists anywhere...
#15
Brian O Flaherty
-
- 2,668 posts
- Joined: May 01
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 20:23
That's subtly different. In your comparison, the real 'Quattro' has quattro as the actual model name. The later cars just use the word to denote 4wd. But I am digressing. Do continue 
FWIW I am a big fan on the 928 and always wondered too why it seems to be under-appreciated. I put it down to what has to be very high running costs e.g. fuel, maintenance. and I do appreciate that it's looks aren't for everyone, and it does look on the ungainly side of heavy for a Porsche.
FWIW I am a big fan on the 928 and always wondered too why it seems to be under-appreciated. I put it down to what has to be very high running costs e.g. fuel, maintenance. and I do appreciate that it's looks aren't for everyone, and it does look on the ungainly side of heavy for a Porsche.
#16
Racer.Demon
-
- 1,722 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 22:02
Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty
That's subtly different. In your comparison, the real 'Quattro' has quattro as the actual model name. The later cars just use the word to denote 4wd. But I am digressing. Do continue
I can see where the confusion comes from but I meant something different - I wasn't talking about the car!
Instead I wanted to point to the different 4WD systems all named "quattro" by Audi whereas some 4WD purists would say that only the all-mechanical full-time auto-engaging 4WD quattro II system with the torque-sensing center differential is "the real quattro" system, as opposed to the later electronically aided and/or part-time systems which have been called "quattro" too, thereby disallowing the fact that these might be even better than the original system - which wasn't even the original...
But I will agree that this is totally OT and not even related to motor racing!
#17
CONOSUR
-
- 10,647 posts
- Joined: November 00
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 22:35
Don't you mean 928 Porsches?;)Originally posted by Racer.Demon
But I will agree that this is totally OT and not even related to motor racing!
#18
David Beard
-
- 4,997 posts
- Joined: July 02
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 22:49
A work pal of mine bought a 928 a few months ago, and I went with him to look at a few. He almost had me buying one too. They really are bargain basement in the UK, but even early ones are solid and tidy. They might be expensive if trouble arrives...but they actually seem to be pretty bomb proof. The most often recorded fault is that the pressure sensing system for the tyres fails...
#19
Bernd
-
- 3,313 posts
- Joined: October 00
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 23:20
928
944 Ugh Poor mans Porsche
914 There are no words
Somehow I don't think the Carrera GT is going to fall foul of this syndrome and it has a mid mount V10!!!
Out of curiosity how much was the car Stuart? $18000 or so?
944
Ugh Poor mans Porsche914
There are no wordsSomehow I don't think the Carrera GT is going to fall foul of this syndrome and it has a mid mount V10!!!
Out of curiosity how much was the car Stuart? $18000 or so?
Advertisement
#20
biercemountain
-
- 1,014 posts
- Joined: June 01
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 23:22
Originally posted by CONOSUR
Other than that, the main problem for the car here in America was that it was perceived as being just plain ugly.
I contend that the 928 was ahead of it's time from a styling perspective. Because it went against the "norm" people rejected it. I personally think it's a handsome car.
It had curves when everyone else was into angles.
Just look at the body style for the current Ford Probe and you'll notice that it takes most of it's design cues from the 928.
#21
rdrcr
-
- 2,727 posts
- Joined: June 01
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 23:31
I would imagine that the car's heavy weight contributed to much of that. In the racing guise, huge amounts of work (dieting) needed to be done to the car to get it on par with the competition. Though once done, it proved reliable if nothing else.Originally posted by stuartbrs
Ive just bought one. Utterly fantastic motor car, comfortable, handling and performance that is just superb, and bloody good fuel economy if driven sensibly...
So why are they so cheap? I had the choice of a Porsche 928 or a new Hyundai...insurance through Shannons was more than reasonable, and so far as I can tell parts aren`t that much worse than my fathers Toyota Camry... what was it that devalued the 928 so dramaticly over the 911, the water cooled engine?, the fact that the engine was at the wrong end? the v8 instead of a flat 6? the lack of competition pedigree? Surely any hand built Porsche ( unlike the Audi built 924/944 ) should be worth more?
Why didnt the Porsche 928 achieve greatness??
I sure loved mine, I had a '86 928S (the first year of the DOHC engine and ABS with the old body style, which I prefer over the S4) and kept it for a couple of years. I used the car as my everyday driver and a couple of times on track days. It had everything that an "exec-cruiser " needed, champagne and black leather everywhere, front and rear AC, the works, it was solid as a vault, rode well and was fast has hell. In fact, I saw 165 mph with no bother at all on a stretch of Fwy from San Diego to Temecula, CA. It may have had more to offer, but that was impressive enough for me.
Originally posted by Ruairidh
As for the 928, they are very good cars in their own right with potentially prohibitive maintenance costs. As a long distance grand tourer they still are a great choice. They attract a very passionate ownership - but oddly I cannot think of any 911 owner who has one as well as a 911 (I'm sure they exist but I don't know them).
Hi... I've owned 2 911's a new '78 SC and a tricked out, '73 911T Targa with a 2.7 S engine. Both were a ball to drive.I was going to post this in the "transporter thread" but this is ironically more fitting.
Sept. 1987, here I am with some "stuff" on our first outing to Willow Springs for some fun!
On why it "failed", I agree with many and I suspect that due to the Porsche purists outlook on such things - the 928 series suffered from an identity problem. But as far as I was / am concerned it was and still is, one of the best cars ever to come out of the Porsche factory.
They were a bit expensive to repair. Though the only problem I ever had was with the fuel pump and it cost over $800 to fix. The part was only $235 or so, but they had to remove the fuel tank to get at it - add $600 in labor! sheesh...
Fortymark, you're after a great one, the ClubSport is one helluva car.
Stuart, what model did you get?
#22
275 GTB-4
-
- 8,274 posts
- Joined: February 03
Member
Posted 05 December 2003 - 23:46
Originally posted by Brian O Flaherty
Until they went for the 'lets shoot fish in a barrel' rolling fashion item that is the new Mini.
Good one Brian!! But to be fair, the Bini's do have some redeeming qualities and will become a quasi-classsic one day.
Now, when Volkswagen starting building those sports models...what are they called again?.....porsh-arghs.....it started to go pear shaped around 914 time!!!
The 911 of the 1960's/1970's was an ellegant motor car. The newer cars are a styling disaster IMHO. :
#23
mp4
-
- 584 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 00:37
928s are probably the best 'sleeper' bargains on the market today. Enjoy your car. You got a good one.
My buddy once owned a 928...
Without a doubt, it was the most yummy car I have ever driven.
I have owned various 944s. They too, are a lot of fun but seem kinda simple when compared to a 928.
My brother has a 911. It's an excellent track car but a tad lacking, when it comes time to going on a trip.
When my finances are properly attended to, I aim to have a 928 S4 in my garage.
Cheers
My buddy once owned a 928...
Without a doubt, it was the most yummy car I have ever driven.
I have owned various 944s. They too, are a lot of fun but seem kinda simple when compared to a 928.
My brother has a 911. It's an excellent track car but a tad lacking, when it comes time to going on a trip.
When my finances are properly attended to, I aim to have a 928 S4 in my garage.
Cheers
#24
Don Capps
-
- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 00:41
Originally posted by Racer.Demon
But I will agree that this is totally OT and not even related to motor racing!
Your point being....?
#25
Wolf
-
- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 01:06
Originally posted by Ruairidh
That "bad idea brilliantly executed" concept of having an air-cooled engine at the back of the car still (rightly or wrongly) sets my pulse racing
"Bad idea brilliantly executed"- how dare You?!? You mean I have two "bad ideas not brilliantly executed" in my garage?!?
And none of them is Tatra either...;)
#26
Ian Stewart
-
- 258 posts
- Joined: October 03
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:17
Had three, consecutively, over an eleven year period. Beautifull cars. Had 'bad ideas' too, before and after.
Impossible to compare them. 928s do it one way and 'bad ideas' do it another. Both ways can be thoroughly 'bad', but they're hugely enjoyable!
Impossible to compare them. 928s do it one way and 'bad ideas' do it another. Both ways can be thoroughly 'bad', but they're hugely enjoyable!
#27
stuartbrs
-
- 801 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:23
Richard
The car I bought is a 1983 928S. The body is immaculate, the interior perfect...and the engine is..new! The previous owner is a mechanic with more money than sense, the original motor had cracked a block and was incorrectly repaired by the local Porsche dealership, they had relined the cracked cylinder bore which led to all sorts of dramas, the letter I found in the glovebox from Porsche states that they would never recommend relining a cylinder bore. So the guy I bought it from got it quite cheap, bought 3 (!) motors, stripped them all down, found the best one and then completely rebuilt it, I have all the receipts and all the work was carried out in accordance to Porsche procedures.
The engine is an absolute jewel, and is awesomely good on fuel if driven sensibly. On most of my trips it uses less fuel than the 1.3ltr Festiva I had been cursed with for the previuous few months. Of course, if you start giving it some it does start to churn through it a bit, but driven at the speed limits the fuel economy has been a very pleasant suprise.
And I feel that pictures never do the shape any justice at all, it really is a stunning looking motor car.
Also, can the Porsche v8 in the 928 lay claim to being the first clean sheet engine that Porsche produced? And was the car designed around the engine, or was the engine designed for the car?
The car I bought is a 1983 928S. The body is immaculate, the interior perfect...and the engine is..new! The previous owner is a mechanic with more money than sense, the original motor had cracked a block and was incorrectly repaired by the local Porsche dealership, they had relined the cracked cylinder bore which led to all sorts of dramas, the letter I found in the glovebox from Porsche states that they would never recommend relining a cylinder bore. So the guy I bought it from got it quite cheap, bought 3 (!) motors, stripped them all down, found the best one and then completely rebuilt it, I have all the receipts and all the work was carried out in accordance to Porsche procedures.
The engine is an absolute jewel, and is awesomely good on fuel if driven sensibly. On most of my trips it uses less fuel than the 1.3ltr Festiva I had been cursed with for the previuous few months. Of course, if you start giving it some it does start to churn through it a bit, but driven at the speed limits the fuel economy has been a very pleasant suprise.
And I feel that pictures never do the shape any justice at all, it really is a stunning looking motor car.
Also, can the Porsche v8 in the 928 lay claim to being the first clean sheet engine that Porsche produced? And was the car designed around the engine, or was the engine designed for the car?
#28
Ruairidh
-
- 1,074 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:41
Stuart - I forgot to say congratulations before! One web resource you might want to check out is the 928 forum at http://forums.rennlist.com/ - the 964/993 forums have been a fantastic resource to me.
#29
Ruairidh
-
- 1,074 posts
- Joined: November 02
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 02:46
Originally posted by BRG
And historically, I recall that the VW/Porsche 914/6 was viewed very sceptically by purists (not without some reason, to be fair) as was the 924.
I agree that there were very few 914/6 enthusiasts in the UK. What is interesting is that, over on this side of the pond, the 914/6 both sold in great numbers and remains a car with a strong enthusiastic ownership pool - and some darn quick track examples to this day!
#30
stuartbrs
-
- 801 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 03:21
thanks Ruairidh
I will certainly check out that forum!!
I will certainly check out that forum!!
#31
stuartbrs
-
- 801 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 03:27
to Bernd
the car was 21,000, a little more than some examples I saw on the mainland, but the new engine and perfect body/mechanicals and interior swayed me to spend a little extra, plus the guy that rebuilt the engine is doing all servicing and only charging for parts and not labour.
Inusrance through Shannons was $650 per year ( which included my Mini as well!!! ) and they give me a free windscreen each year ( if needed ) without effecting my policy.
the car was 21,000, a little more than some examples I saw on the mainland, but the new engine and perfect body/mechanicals and interior swayed me to spend a little extra, plus the guy that rebuilt the engine is doing all servicing and only charging for parts and not labour.
Inusrance through Shannons was $650 per year ( which included my Mini as well!!! ) and they give me a free windscreen each year ( if needed ) without effecting my policy.
#32
ray b
-
- 2,951 posts
- Joined: January 01
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 05:50
I see the 928 as a better done vett or 450sl not realy a sportscar
and more of an american style turnpike GT then what they built before it
914-6 we thought was killed to protect the 911 from getting beat by it's
faster cheaper little brother, but Karmen's instant rust was a big problem too
I had a 1970 euro VW-porsche
dad had 1/2 doz 356's inc a twin cammer [wish I still had that one]
and more of an american style turnpike GT then what they built before it
914-6 we thought was killed to protect the 911 from getting beat by it's
faster cheaper little brother, but Karmen's instant rust was a big problem too
I had a 1970 euro VW-porsche
dad had 1/2 doz 356's inc a twin cammer [wish I still had that one]
#33
Racer.Demon
-
- 1,722 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 11:24
Originally posted by Don Capps
Your point being....?
My point on purism was on-topic, the ensuing explanation following a misunderstanding wasn't, so that's why...;)
#34
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 16:30
The Porsche 928 is the car my father said about oin 1979: I will buy this car, if I will be 60. Must call him, that's in a few month.
And some words about loves and unloved. The more popular a car is, look at a MB 300 SL, the more boring is it. But a 928 isn't boring, although it's not my favorite car, it is an interesting one in the history of Porsche, because it was on top the 911. Not a racing car, more usuable for the Champs Elysee, so what. Here in switzerland you can see many 928s - driven by women, like the boxter or the Audi TT!
And some words about loves and unloved. The more popular a car is, look at a MB 300 SL, the more boring is it. But a 928 isn't boring, although it's not my favorite car, it is an interesting one in the history of Porsche, because it was on top the 911. Not a racing car, more usuable for the Champs Elysee, so what. Here in switzerland you can see many 928s - driven by women, like the boxter or the Audi TT!
#35
Don Capps
-
- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 17:32
Originally posted by Racer.Demon
My point on purism was on-topic, the ensuing explanation following a misunderstanding wasn't, so that's why...;)
Needless to say,
, I have pretty much lost any sense of "purism" when things take the usual TNF detours and wander around a bit.... However, the point was correct and well-taken. When possible, nudges -- alongs with winks & nods (lots at times....) -- are made to get things back on something at least generally resembling "On Topic." I am a bit "generous" on various car topics since they do fit into this forum to an extent, but as long as they to a minimum that is the policy. Should they become more than an occasional thing, then action gets taken.
#37
WDH74
-
- 1,360 posts
- Joined: March 03
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 18:41
I used to see a few 928s around, back when I was in high school, about ten years ago or more. Every once in a while one turns up on the road around here, but not nearly so often. I've never driven one, but always kinda liked 'em, and road tests always seemed favorable. Personally, though, I've never looked upon the 928 as a sports car as much as a fast GT car. In the States, "Porsche" is synonomous with the words "sports car", which to many people denotes a smaller, lightweight sort of car, and the big, heavy feel of the 928 probably put some people off.
-William
-William
#38
Mox
-
- 3,234 posts
- Joined: February 03
Member
Posted 06 December 2003 - 19:01
I think people expected Porsche to bring out a new "sportscar" like the 911.
Instead the brought out a GT-car. A "Grand Tourismo".
In my book, the 928 was an excellent GT-car, comfy, easy to drive, mid-range torque like mad. Wonderful daily drive.
Oh ... and the seats are amazing.
Great car.
Instead the brought out a GT-car. A "Grand Tourismo".
In my book, the 928 was an excellent GT-car, comfy, easy to drive, mid-range torque like mad. Wonderful daily drive.
Oh ... and the seats are amazing.
Great car.
#39
lanciaman
-
- 558 posts
- Joined: March 03
Member
Posted 07 December 2003 - 00:28
This may come under the "apocryphal story" heading:
I remember reading, several years ago, that the use of magnesium in the 928 actually led to the car losing mass: the article said that magnesium "evaporates" or degrades with time, resulting in weakened and lighter components. As I am not an engineer, I do not know the truth of this. The point was, as the 928 gets older, the car becomes lighter.
I wish the same were true for me.
(When the 928 was launched, it was considered the first "lifetime" car...supposed to last as long you do.)
I remember reading, several years ago, that the use of magnesium in the 928 actually led to the car losing mass: the article said that magnesium "evaporates" or degrades with time, resulting in weakened and lighter components. As I am not an engineer, I do not know the truth of this. The point was, as the 928 gets older, the car becomes lighter.
I wish the same were true for me.
(When the 928 was launched, it was considered the first "lifetime" car...supposed to last as long you do.)
Advertisement
#40
mp4
-
- 584 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 07 December 2003 - 06:37
Originally posted by Mox
Oh ... and the seats are amazing.
That is something I very much noticed the 1st time I drove one.
They were better than those in my 944s. Very similar, yet kinda different...
I also liked the way the steering wheel and dashboard was so adjustable...
Cheers
#41
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 08 December 2003 - 21:46
Okay back on topic. I found some pictures of the development of the Porsche 928 deep, deep in thze underground of all my unsorted pictures. As a owner of the orginal Audi 100 Coupé S, which was built between 1970 - 1976, it depends to my special interests, what happend with that model.
In the mid70s, Porsche used several cars, like an Opel Diplomat, a MB 350 SL and this particularly widened Audi 100 Coupé S to test the Porsche 928 engine and the chassis components in the south of France.
The Audi was opened in the middle, divided in two parts, then the engine was fitted in, and with some more metal the car was once again completed, but was a bit broader.
The second picture shows the same Audi Coupé, but also a 911 on testrun and an Opel Manta, which was used for 924 testruns. And last but not least for all safety a beetle.
I just wanted to complete the history of the Porsche 928 and the 924 a little bit more. There were three Audi Coupés built to test the Porsche and one MB 350 SL to test the engine. That's all. Afterwards Porsche made testruns with the bodies of prototypes of the 928.
In the mid70s, Porsche used several cars, like an Opel Diplomat, a MB 350 SL and this particularly widened Audi 100 Coupé S to test the Porsche 928 engine and the chassis components in the south of France.
The Audi was opened in the middle, divided in two parts, then the engine was fitted in, and with some more metal the car was once again completed, but was a bit broader.
The second picture shows the same Audi Coupé, but also a 911 on testrun and an Opel Manta, which was used for 924 testruns. And last but not least for all safety a beetle.
I just wanted to complete the history of the Porsche 928 and the 924 a little bit more. There were three Audi Coupés built to test the Porsche and one MB 350 SL to test the engine. That's all. Afterwards Porsche made testruns with the bodies of prototypes of the 928.
#42
stuartbrs
-
- 801 posts
- Joined: September 02
Member
Posted 08 December 2003 - 23:30
Those Audi 100 coupes are really smart looking cars... 
Very Aston Martin looking, are there many of them left?
Very Aston Martin looking, are there many of them left?
#43
Vicuna
-
- 1,607 posts
- Joined: March 02
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 08:51
How many classic sports cars never had a convertible option in their range?
Apart from limited model versions like the 959 and GTO etc.
Does it take for a cabriolet to be produced for it to be a true classic.
At the more modest end of the scale - the Datsun 240Z.
A great but, like the 928, underrated sportscar.
Never went topless.
Just a thought that others will torpedo.
Apart from limited model versions like the 959 and GTO etc.
Does it take for a cabriolet to be produced for it to be a true classic.
At the more modest end of the scale - the Datsun 240Z.
A great but, like the 928, underrated sportscar.
Never went topless.
Just a thought that others will torpedo.
#44
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 08:54
Originally posted by stuartbrs
Those Audi 100 coupes are really smart looking cars...
Very Aston Martin looking, are there many of them left?
Yes they are looking more or less like the Fiat Dino Coupé. There are a fwe cars left.
10 in Switzerland, perhaps 100 or 200 in Germany, two or three in France, some in the Netherlands, some in UK, That's it. There are more MB 300 SL (Gullwing) on this planet.
#45
MarkWill
-
- 489 posts
- Joined: December 01
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 09:58
Just my thoughts here:
The original 928 was a car that had a reputation for having quite a few gremlins (strange locks which jammed, sporadic engine and dashboard electrical problems that came and went, manual gearbox which was initially unreliable - I think it was solved by using a Mercedes gearbox) plus the cost of maintenance was astronomical because space inside the engine bay was so limited (changing the two timing belts was quite a costly, time-consuming experience). A good friend of mine owned two of them in succession, believing that the second one would be a well-sorted version of the first, but he was wrong, and he spent LOTS of money on repairs once the warranty expired. I don´t think his was a unique experience either.
As the car evolved, many of these problems were addressed (although horrifically expensive service costs remained) but the car was now living with an image problem - unloved by the "air-cooled rear-enders" in the Porsche community, and dragging around its reputation gained in its early years. Plus Porsche was going through a bad financial phase when the car was at its best (late eighties/early nineties - thank god by then it had also lost that crazy zebra nylon interior) and seemed to blame its woes on the direction taken with the 928.
I have been looking for the right one for some time now, because I happen to think that these are the sexiest GT cars around, especially in S4 or GTS form.
Earlier this year I nearly picked one up - a late model S4 in immaculate condition - for $25000 CDN but I missed the opportunity. I still hope to find one for around that price next year. I own a 944 Turbo which I agree is pretty basic, but as a point-and-shoot car its a lot of fun (I disagree about its looks being considered poor- its just that there are so many around. They are great performance bargains).
The Audi 100 Coupé, Fiat Dino Coupé, and the Ford Granada Coupé are all pretty rare now, but only the Fiat seems to be entheused about (well, I suppose it deserves to be). Were the coupés a seventies phenomena?
The original 928 was a car that had a reputation for having quite a few gremlins (strange locks which jammed, sporadic engine and dashboard electrical problems that came and went, manual gearbox which was initially unreliable - I think it was solved by using a Mercedes gearbox) plus the cost of maintenance was astronomical because space inside the engine bay was so limited (changing the two timing belts was quite a costly, time-consuming experience). A good friend of mine owned two of them in succession, believing that the second one would be a well-sorted version of the first, but he was wrong, and he spent LOTS of money on repairs once the warranty expired. I don´t think his was a unique experience either.
As the car evolved, many of these problems were addressed (although horrifically expensive service costs remained) but the car was now living with an image problem - unloved by the "air-cooled rear-enders" in the Porsche community, and dragging around its reputation gained in its early years. Plus Porsche was going through a bad financial phase when the car was at its best (late eighties/early nineties - thank god by then it had also lost that crazy zebra nylon interior) and seemed to blame its woes on the direction taken with the 928.
I have been looking for the right one for some time now, because I happen to think that these are the sexiest GT cars around, especially in S4 or GTS form.
Earlier this year I nearly picked one up - a late model S4 in immaculate condition - for $25000 CDN but I missed the opportunity. I still hope to find one for around that price next year. I own a 944 Turbo which I agree is pretty basic, but as a point-and-shoot car its a lot of fun (I disagree about its looks being considered poor- its just that there are so many around. They are great performance bargains).
The Audi 100 Coupé, Fiat Dino Coupé, and the Ford Granada Coupé are all pretty rare now, but only the Fiat seems to be entheused about (well, I suppose it deserves to be). Were the coupés a seventies phenomena?
#46
Brun
-
- 511 posts
- Joined: April 02
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 10:20
Originally posted by MarkWill
The Audi 100 Coupé, Fiat Dino Coupé, and the Ford Granada Coupé are all pretty rare now, but only the Fiat seems to be entheused about (well, I suppose it deserves to be). Were the coupés a seventies phenomena?
The 100 Coupé S is now a car with its own group of fans. It's not a widespread classic, possibly because its engine is a little weak for a Coupé.
As for the Ford Granada: that one is on its way up. The car is now very in vogue amongst 25- to 35-year olds, who love to drive the big, boring, bourgeoise 1970s cars. In Germany there's even this subculture ...
#47
karlcars
-
- 660 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 10:34
Answers to many of the questions in this thread, including the engine's origin, are in my book, which deals in depth with the 928 and its evolution.
To anwer the main question, the 928 raised the hackles of true Porsche enthusiasts because it was positioned, at its launch, as the eventual successor to the 911. That was indeed the plan at the time, and Porsche people were rightly unhappy to see their 911 menaced by this quite different car.
Had Porsche launched the 928 as a separate model, a GT car if you will, it would have been seen in a much better light by the truly shriven. This was realized belatedly by people like Peter Schutz, but by then it was too late.
To anwer the main question, the 928 raised the hackles of true Porsche enthusiasts because it was positioned, at its launch, as the eventual successor to the 911. That was indeed the plan at the time, and Porsche people were rightly unhappy to see their 911 menaced by this quite different car.
Had Porsche launched the 928 as a separate model, a GT car if you will, it would have been seen in a much better light by the truly shriven. This was realized belatedly by people like Peter Schutz, but by then it was too late.
#48
Holger Merten
-
- 1,836 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 12:09
@Brun, thanks for your comments about the Audi Coupé and the standing of a Ford Granada.
@Karl. I'll agree with you. The positioning of the car wasn't clear in the seventies. The 928 was going against an MB 500 SLC, or SEC. More a perfect boulevard racer for the states, than an agressic sports car for Europe.
@Karl. I'll agree with you. The positioning of the car wasn't clear in the seventies. The 928 was going against an MB 500 SLC, or SEC. More a perfect boulevard racer for the states, than an agressic sports car for Europe.
#49
rdrcr
-
- 2,727 posts
- Joined: June 01
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 17:38
This maybe of some interest. The first drawings showed the configuration of the drivetrain layout to be traditional Porsche.
Leonard Laub wrote:
"If you read the fine print, it shows an alternate engine position (a little further back) for use with an automatic transmission. The rear view of the engine shows an air conditioning compressor. The main title calls for the V8 engine to be five to six liters. That’s one sizable water radiator up front. Clearly, Porsche was ready to build, or at least consider building, a big, comfortable, powerful, water-cooled car.
However, the plan view shows the steering wheel axis (and the orientation of the driver) tipped off the main axis of the car, as in 911s and 356s, for the same reason, namely the encroachment of the front wheels’ steering clearance into front passenger foot area. The front engine location of the 928 fixed this, along with what would have been a serious balance and polar moment issue with that nice big engine hanging out the rear."
Toward that end, note how the half shafts run diagonally back to the wheels in order to get the CG a little further inside the wheelbase. Nice try guys, but the next one was a winner.
That nifty drawing of a rear-engined V8 Porsche has a bit more to reveal. It’s dated June 12, 1971 (and signed; anyone know Herr Gerber?) a period referred to in the book "Project 928" as one in which "development chief Helmut Bott had undertaken an extensive evaluation of engine placement and drive line models", of which this appears to be one.
The book also indicates that Porsche had rejected a mid-engine layout because "There was not enough space under the rear seat for the large, eight cylinder engine they preferred." At any rate, the results of this evaluation were boiled down to the front engine, rear transaxle layout of what became the 928 and presented to Dr. Ernst Fuhrmann, the then-head of Porsche and the man we have to thank for our cars, on his birthday, October 21, 1971.
The first photo in the book shows Wolfgang Eyb, design boss for the project, signing a schematic drawing of the car labeled "Sportwagenprojekt ‘K’" on March 19, 1972.
Meanwhile, something a bit distressing seems to have happened, because the June ‘71 drawing not only gives the engine’s displacement as 5-6 liters but also shows two cams on each cylinder bank. By late 1972, according to "Project 928", the 928’s engine had been set with one cam per bank; the Arab oil embargo led to the capacity being brought down to 4.5 liters.
Note: This was obtained from Pelican Parts. They acquired and scanned the original German Porsche 911/928 Prototype Blueprint. The print was created in 1971, and has a 911 part number on the drawing. Despite this link to the 911, the shape and form of the 928 is clearly visible.
#50
rdrcr
-
- 2,727 posts
- Joined: June 01
Member
Posted 09 December 2003 - 18:02
Holger, very interesting to see the Audi 100 and Opel "mule" photos... Thanks for those.
As all of you may be aware, Porsche has a true, 4-place design in the works. This soon to be released car is to compete with the Ferrari 456 series and others of the same caliber. You may also know, Porsche has been toying with the idea for some time...
As all of you may be aware, Porsche has a true, 4-place design in the works. This soon to be released car is to compete with the Ferrari 456 series and others of the same caliber. You may also know, Porsche has been toying with the idea for some time...
