The ultimate database?

Greetings all.

I don't think I have ever written in this forum before, but I have been lurking for quite a while now.

What strikes me when I read many threads here is the enormous amount of knowledge that exists among the members... and the lack of a consistent and single place to collect all that knowledge. When I read the thread about drivers that died on track I thought: "Why doesn't anyone make a database of it, make it accessible from the web, give anyone the rights to add to it but have some editors that have to approve it before anything goes public". It wouldn't be so hard to do. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to do it then.

Now I read the thread about the members ongoing project and I thought: "Why not try to build the ultimate racing database?" A database with cars, drivers, races, tracks, organisers, manufacturers and what else that is needed. Make it a community effort with groups for content, proofreading, administration and development. Let anyone that have anything to contribute do so, but have a very strict checking procedure to make sure that it's not only the biggest but also the most accurate place of information on the internet.

If there is interest in such a project I think we should start with discussing what kind of information should be in it.

The most important tables as I see it (please fill in with more attributes) :
(not normalized)
Drivers
id
name
birthdate
deceasedate
...

Cars
model
manufacturer
production_date
chassi_no
...

Races
track
date
name
participants
...

Tracks
name
country
build_year
....

Organisers
name
country
...

This is a conceptual model. In a database there would also be relations between the tables such as cars -> drivers, manufacturers -> cars, tracks -> races etc.

So, what do you think?

/Per-Arne Liljedahl

Is there no way to edit the name of a thread?

Well, no replies so far, but I started to think a little more about how such a database should be constructed. I made a quick layout of the most basic parts of it as a basis for discussion:


Every table should also be able to link to a table with notes and a table with images. I'm sure that this model is too simple, but it is only meant as a discussion starter. A lot more attributes is also needed of course.

/Per-Arne Liljedahl

I think it is a great idea, albeit a huge undertaking!

One quick thought about the races table, is that there should be a reference to the category and class of the vehicle being used, and whether the race counts towards a championship, or is a non-championship or stand alone race.

Exactly the kind of feedback I want! Yes, there should be a table with classes. Probably connected to chassis and races. Or is there a possibility that one chassi could have competed in several classes? Several classes in one race should of course be possible. I'll modify the model tomorrow.

Setting up a database with a very simple web interface is no big deal. Getting quality data into it on the other hand...

My idea is to take it in steps. Start out with just drivers, add cars, connect cars to chassis and engines, add tracks and then races and organisers. I can make a start with the drivers database and web, but to be worthwhile it gotta have some community backing.

/Per-Arne Liljedahl

Wasn't something like this discussed about a year ago (at the instigation of Don Capps, IIRC)?

Hello, Per,

Oh, yes, I understand your project.

Eventually some day in the future - and "sooner than what one may think" - many of the racing databases that today are independent will converge and merge. This is inevitable - it is part of the process by which computers are changing our society (and that's all I will write here about computers and society, I promise...)

Even the tools for this "data merging" step are already out there, as any database software commercially available has at least reasonable data importing features.

Per, the database structure you proposed above is a good first step. May I make the following comments:

1.) I strongly recommend to add type "memo" fields to all records on subtables. Otherwise the database will be sterile, and will not tell stories - it will just be a bunch of numbers classified under rigid norms. Things like that are what give racing databases a bad name. (right, Don? )

2.) Sources. No research effort can be considered scientific without listing them. This is extremely important. I strongly recommend adopting the following principle: "the source listing is to be detailed to the point of allowing a person to retrieve all information contained in the database just by following it (the source listing)".

This may sound obvious, but very few databases follow this approach. We do.

3.) Data on countries should be contained by a table on its own. This is extremely advantageous (see post scriptum below). I suggest that this table have the following fields:
- country ID;
- country name;
- country abbreviation;
- country notes (memo type);

3.) Define the date format upfront. For the purposes of the research I am carrying out (Motorsport Memorial) we use "dd.MMM.yyyy". In order to make any computer with any setting able to deal with this we had to create a separate table for the months (there are other ways of going around this issue; we chose this one).

4.) Create a table for categories. Note: category and class are two different things. Category is what the Americans call "series" or "league".

5.) Create a table for type of cars (what I call "subtype of vehicles"), such as "single seater", "touring car", "stock car", "sportscar", "two-seater", "unknown" and other.

6.) Under the table "tracks", create a field for track variant.

7.) Extend the table "drivers" to include biographic information, such as:
- name ("usual name")
- full name
- date of birth
- place of birth
- country of birth (comes from table "country")
- citizenship (comes from table "country"). Note: some drivers have nore than one (my sister - not a racing driver - has three...)
- date of death
- place of death
- country of death
- age at death (many times, particularly regarding the early decades of racing, there is information on the age, but not on date of birth)
- memo (oh, yes)

8.) One of the most important things: how are the race results going to be displayed? How are the time differences going to be shown? By gap or by absolute timing?

9.) Important: do not "pidgeon-hole". Do not distort information to accomodate it to the database settings. It is the opposite: the database needs to be shaped (and re-shaped) to suit the data in it. Again, this may sound obvious, but very few databases have been developed this way - and that's why serious historians seldom welcome them (erm, was Guy Moll really Algerian? Just kidding, Don...)

Per, I don't want to overload you with comments. I just wanted to give you an initial feedback, and here it is.

Finally, the link below contains an image of the database behind Motorsport Memorial tables:

Structure of Motorsport Memorial database

Your comments on it are most welcome. Also, the Motorsport Memorial database is of public domain - I will be glad to send you a copy of it if you wish so.

Best regards,


Muzza

PS: I am just trying to make you learn from my errors, instead of repeating them.

PPS: This is a wonderful project. We have a unique opportunity ahead... We either take the lead and do it, or someone else, sooner or later, will.

Hi Muzza.

Great to see some encouragement. I searched the forum and saw that this idea had been discussed before and was a bit controversial. I agree that this will never be perfect, but I still think that we should try to capture as much knowledge as possible in an organized and free (as in beer AND speech) form. If I start doing anything I would probably release it under a license like GPL to make sure that it stays free.

My database model was just a 10 minute draft to get the discussion going. Don't take it too seriously.

Regarding your notes:
1. My intentions is to have all "memos" or notes as I call it in one table. All ids in the other tables should be globally unique so that you can easily reference it's corresponding memo or memos. The same same would apply to images. That way you can have one image or note that gets referenced in several places in the database. E.g. A picture of Jim Clark in a Lotus 49 at Zandvoort 1967would be referenced by Jim Clark, Lotus 49, Zandvoort as well as that specific race.

2. Good idea!

3. Yes, absolutely. There are probably more tables like that too.

3b. What is the reason that you don't simply use a date datatype for dates? If I would do it like that I would suggest the ISO format yyyy-mm-dd simply because that's the format that is easiest to sort.

4 and 5. That is something that needs to be clarified.

6. I think I rather do a child table so you can have separate data for each variant.

7. Oh yes. I just picked some random attributes and put in there when I did that model.

8. The presentation of the data should be completely independent of the way it is stored. E.g. Americans might prefer to see average speed and speed differences while the rest would like to see it as time. That is just an adjustment of the presentation program.

9. Yes, I agree fully.


I have to study your database a little bit more to be able to comment it in a meaningful way.

/Per-Arne

Sounds like it would make a good Wikipedia.
The software is on sourceforge.

Hello Per and scurrg,


Per, I am glad you received my comments well. I am no database expert whatsoever, so I just wrote what I learned the hard way!

Also, we both know that there are many different ways of solving the same problem - or achieving the same result - in databases, so my points merely reflect how I (with my limited experience and knowledge) would do it. I am sure more experienced programmers would come up with more refined solutions than mine!

The only point I did not understand very well on your posting was the one about the memos. I would prefer to keep notes (memo) about a driver within this driver record, notes (memo) about a team within this team record, etc. But, again, this is just the way I would do it - it may not be the easier/faster/better one.

One important point are the updates. This can drive one crazy, but it is very important to know what info was changed by whom based on what source, and when... We have a very simple (and rather unrefined) update tracking system at Motorsport Memorial. Think about this issue.

Also, make provisions not to delete a record if it is wrong or has been updated. Instead of deleting it, make the record "inactive". We do that with the "display?" field in the tblPersons - again, there are virtually endless ways of doing it; the most important thing is the concept of not deleting an outdated record.

scurrg, I love the concept of initiatives like the Wikipedia, to the point of repeating the words "open source project" just too often in this forum.

A limiting factor is that the people entering the data must be very knowleadgeble on motorsports. Data entering often becomes the bottleneck of any project involving data management. (particularly today, when data handling hardware and software and cheap and reliable enough to bear with enormous amounts with information).

A project with such high expectations cannot have just about "anyone" entering data - or results can fall in a spectrum going from the embarrassing to the catastrophic...

Keep it up,


Muzza

Per

Have you looked at the Scribble, scribble thread? That was an attempt at doing this in XML so we attempted to describe the information itself - not to normalise the data which is much harder.

I used the XML schema on one occasion for exchanging information with another site and there is still an XML search facility tucked away on my site.

I still think a taxonomy (i.e. a schema) should come before a database design.

Allen

Be wary of dates

01-02-03, or 1,2,3 can be

(a) 1st February 2003 (Common European)
(b) January 2nd 2003 (Common US)
© 2001 February 3rd (Common Database - and Canadians?)
(d) 2001 2nd March (Somebody might do it that way!)

There have been some extensive discussions trying to resolve whether a date was Type 1,2 or maybe 4.

Regardless of ISO standards, I recommend following the WHO and putting the Month in alphabetic characters (I think this is why Muzza uses a special look up. So that there is no confusion in 50 years time the year should be in full.

So you could have either:

(e) 2004 Jan 23, (maybe input as 2004 01 23 and translated) or
(f) 23 Jan 2004 (maybe input as 23 01 2004 and translated)

(e) is possibly easier to sort, but (f) is closer to what most people say and write.

Because of differences between months in different languages it migh be better to display as
23 January 2004

And this is probably the simplest issue! Have fun!



(BTW Funny this should come up today as I've just noticed that some people would write today as 1 23 04)

Nice concept.
Think about some satelite tables to store name changes.
Like tTrack and tTrackname
Where you can store the names on certain moments of tracks.
For example:

tTrack:
ID 1
name: Circuit Gilles Villeneuve

tTrackAlias
ID 1
TrackID 1
Name: Ile Notre Dame
Startdate '1-jan-1900'
Enddate '31-dec-1981'

ID 2
TrackID 2
Name: Circuit Gilles Villeneuve
Startdate '1-jan-1982'
Enddate '31-dec-2010'

Dont mean the data, but the concept.
Same structure is needed for team names.
You dont want to see 'Circuit Gilles Villeneuve' when you name a result of 1977.....
In the same way you can use binary coding for differences between the entrant names and the name you usely have for the team, or even abbreviations.

Like, define 1 = Entry Name, 2=Normal name, 4=abbreviation

You then store the value 3 with the name McLaren if thats the entrant name and the normal name.
But most times you shall have something like:

tTeamAlias
ID: 1
TeamID: 1
Code 1
Name: Marlboro Team Mclaren Honda
StartDate: '1-jan-1988'
Enddate: '31-dec-1989'

ID: 2
TeamID: 1
Code: 1
Name: West McLaren Mercedes
StartDate: 1-jan-1999
Enddate:31-dec-2004

ID: 3
TeamID:1
Code: 2
Name: McLaren
Startdate: '1-jan-1972'
Enddate:'31 dec 2004'

ID: 4
TeamID:1
Code: 4
Name: MCL
Startdate: '1-jan-1972'
Enddate:'31 dec 2004'

Note: You have to use binary-filtering to get the correct name, but it reduces youre data-entry and its must more easier to keep an overview on the data and to keep it semantically correct.


Other Quez:
How do you store final results ?
How do you handle the 'point corrections' in years that not all results counted ?
How do you handle the 'shared drives' ?
How do you handle the 'driver contracts'
Where to store the 'other results' (Qual, Free Pract., FastLaps etc.)

And.. if you want to extend to all motorsports....

How do you handle race results that are divided into classes (ALMS, GT)
Races being run as 2 parts with an aggregate
People sharing the cars (LeMans, ALMS)

How would you store the different competitions and race seasons ?

I personally think the Forix design is pretty robust, but i cannot understand why people dont use binary coding more often.
I am pretty sure Forix cant give you a summation on how many times someone retired with an engine failure.
(Yeah, you can filter on the string 'Engine', but if you type 'Engine Broke' one time, youre done...)
If you define code 1= Retired and Code 2= Engine problem, code 4 = Classified
you can catch all possibilities of Retired with engine problem, BUT still classified
Retired with Engine Problem, and Retired just with 1 simple value.....
(7, 3 and 1 resp.)

And for those who think.. what the **** is he talking about...
Yes, I am a database developer
Yes, I already built it.....
Yes, all autosport has a place in it.
BUT, there is some difficulties on making it public, but i stand open for all conceptual discussions or help.

Maybe a nice idea, but I foresee one little problem. It takes me enough time as it is to update my webpage - I certainly don't have enough time to retrospectively edit the some 7000 files which make up my site. How would you plan to do things?

Hi Darren,
First.. dont stop with youre site as i regard it as 1 of the very best sources for results.
I am pretty sure that IF you had a full system to put the results in, it would make youre work easier.
As you only have to type drivernames, tracknames, teamnames and carnames only 1 time.
Then you use listboxes to choose from.
Never typo's again.
And if you get the files delivered in txt format, then you would be crazy to do anymore with it then post it, i am sure it eats alot of youre time already.

To import all you have into a database would indeed be a hell of a job, although i think that with using txt -> excel and some smart tricks to divide youre text files into columns already some 95% could be imported into such system automatically.
The rest of the 5% would be different writings of names, cars etc. and you will have to go through that by hand.
Still, hell of a job, but thats not because youre format, but simply because there is a LOT of data.

But think about the final result... you simply click on a driver in a result and it tells you all results of that driver in all other races EVER, with all those showings again clickable to the full results of that race.

There are very good F1 databases (Forix, the best)
There are pretty good 'more autosport' databases (Speedsport OK, MotorsportsAlmanac Good)
I dont know of a good database of Lemans and SportsCars, but youre site, wspr-racing and LeMans Register have the results (text based) covered very well.


But there is NOT 1 database covering ALL..................................................

Originally posted by David McKinney
Wasn't something like this discussed about a year ago (at the instigation of Don Capps, IIRC)?

At several points in the past this idea has been discussed. Per-Arne might wish to seach for "database" and see what gets dredged up from the murky depths of the TNF archives.

Once upon a time -- and not all that long ago really, I did sit down and design a rather extensive protocol for a motor racing database. Given the rather messy nature of some of the data, there were a few hiccups getting it to not choke and gag at times, but for the most part it was a fairly easy, straight-forward exercise. Once I did, I ran some data through it, massaged it to work fairly well -- it handled GP/F1, AAA/USAC/CART/IRL, NASCAR, Sports Car & pretty much whatever I threw at it -- and then dumped it.

What I could never fix was the most important data element to me -- the story. What I had was tons and tons of data, statistics, and Information. Yes, yes, I did make a few simple additions to allow it to be seamlessly inserted into an article or whatever.

However, the more I worked with it the more I realized that it was really just being more and more data-centric than I anticipated. There was no life behind its eyes.

Once it was filled up with data, you could just plunk in the things you wanted and out would spill lots of data. But, like Forix and all the rest of the existing dbases out there, the focal point would be the data and the statistics derived from that data.

Yes, data is important to the story, but only of it is integrated into the Story or used as a starting point for a diversion within the story.

Plus, there should be a certain amount of pain involved in research. However, that is another story for another day.

So, I dumped it.

I now laboriously tippy-type all the material into a Word document. It salves the Luddite in me.

PS: Excel sucks very big, sour lemons as a "database." I often have this urge to throttle folks until their eyes pop out when they give me data in a dbase using Excel. The minimum level program for dbase is Access or its equivalent.

Darren,
I understand your point totally.
I am more the man for the figures, at least to store, and you are more with the story.
Just do what you like to do i would say, and stories are great too, but they dont let themselves stored easily in a database structure.
Best you can do is attaching specific stories with numbers to specific objects, but that would be a hell of a hell of a job, and when its a hell of a hell, the joy to do disappears and thats no good.

Maybe i was vague about it, but
I was definately not suggesting excel as database source, i just use it sometimes to fix up columns before importing into the database. (Search and replaces, split-columns etc.)
Thats when i clip-and paste textfiles.
I hate excel, but it just turns out to be handy, only for those purposes.....

And MsAccess is not too good for it too, myself i use SQL-server.
But thats more because the amount of data to be handled, Access is too slow for that.

As referred to by Allen and Don, this was discussed earlier - and each time discussions ran into the ground because of people wanting to create the ideal situation. There will never be any.

If this were to become an AtlasF1 effort, I'd say look no further than the Atlas-backed FORIX. It has some flaws but at least it's there, it's run professionally, it's now transfered to a more flexible and robust database environment and the owner is willing to expand beyond WCF1. It would save you all A LOT of work.

Felix and I - along with Richard, Roger and others - tried to get this off the ground some time ago, for non-championship Grand Prix events at least, but then the Atlas takeover came in between and we forgot about it. The site is now in the middle of a redesign but when that's finished I'm sure the idea could be taken up again.

As for the stories that make the results and statistics breathe - don't put them in a database... For me, I'm glad that 8W is still text-based. Pure and simple words, one after the other.

There is, obviously, a place for both the Story and the Data, there is ample evidence for that from the requests for information on this thread.

I haven't seen the FORIX data model, but like racer.demon I would be inclined to start from there. It does have a vast amount of data loaded into what appears to be a well structured database.

What we really need is a means of linking databases so that we could make use of what already exists. I know that Allen Brown and others did some work on this a while ago. The technology is relatively simple; it should be possible, for example for the Tracks table in the database to contain a link to the relevant map on Darren's site; assuming he agrees, of course.

If I may make some comments on the datamodel proposed by PAL:[list=1]
[*]I don't understand the link between Drivers and Races; surely the link from Drivers to Race Entries is sufficient
[*]Race-Entries should be linked to Engine-Chassis rather than Chassis
[*]The area around Drivers will need some modification to handle shared drives and long distance races with two drivers
[*]Teams and Chassis need a Period of Ownership (or something) between them.
[/list=1]
However, the real test of the model is to see whether it can cope with the history of the Maserati 250F

I wonder how many people are familiar with the Internet Movie Database? To me, it covers all the bases we are looking for - it has a cross-reference friendly system of film credits which you can use to follow the career of a given individual. It has space for individual users' reviews of films, which would work equally well for recording the stories behind the races which I think we are agreed brings life to the bare data.

After all, given a list of results you are no closer to establishing if it's a Monza '71 or a Jarama '81 sort of race. Equally, given a list of credits in a film you won't necessarily know if it was a Casablanca or a Plan Nine From Outer Space.

http://us.imdb.com/

My dream would be to see a searchable resource which revealed all the available information possible, not only big international events, but the humblest of club races. Only then would it be possible to really chart the career of a driver or car.

OK, if we're going to get into detail, cars turn up to races in different specifications so I have a table that I call an 'Instance' of a car which combines the car with its specification. So an instance may be Brabham BT29/23 with a 1.8-litre FVC engine. So the 'car' is Brabham BT29/23 and the 'specification' is 1.8-litre Brabham BT29-FVC. At the very next race it might have a 1.6-litre FVA.

I don't believe FORIX is the right place to start as it was designed for single-class, single-heat races. Most motor racing is much, much harder than that.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Allen

Originally posted by Roger Clark
However, the real test of the model is to see whether it can cope with the history of the Maserati 250F

Which is what I used for my model of the dbase -- needless to say, it gagged and choked a great deal until it finally could handle the shock without (too many) convulsions and deliver an (reasonably) accurate product. Needless to say, I worked to a level of great specificity and excruciating detail. To include heats, finals, shared drives, and so forth -- such as riding mechanics....

Then, I figured it out and I guess that if I can, so can anyone else.

However, I was using a flounder approach to this whole business: using a basic, readily available dbase that Normal Human Beings could used with an absolute minimum of training and that would allow easy transfer of data as updates occurred. This is what is always overlooked when everyone goes off half-cocked on these things. Making it Simple is The Real Challenge. Any idiot can devise a highly sophisticated system for Nerds, doing that for Luddites.... ah! that is indeed a true challenge.

Forix is okay, but lacks a good bit of what I would like to have and how I like to see it. But, I also didn't want to spend several years inputting data into what I developed (I called it RDB62.... ) when I could be writing instead.

Here's my attempt of building scheme for quite simple database which covers only informaion on races. I'm not professional database maker so I can understand something wrong. I'm just almost sure that I correctly imagine what kind of information I want to store and search. This database then can be correctly integrated into more complex one but at the moment my main intention is to keep HUGE list of races.

We talk very often on MEETINGS, not RACES themselves, so my first table is for meetings, which can consist of several various races for various categories and classes. These races (including heats) are in different table. These two tables are basis of this database. All other tables are just utility.

So at first we have list of meetings in chronological order (all those Grands Prix meeting with support races, Bank Holiday meetings and so on). Then from it you can explore races list for each particular meeting or sort races of particular name, in paticular venues, for particular classes and so on.

What can you say about it?

I've been working on a database using MS Access and VB6. It's only for F1 from 1950 though...



A couple of weeks ago, I started converting all of this to MySQL & PHP. I can see that it's going to take quite awhile to do this.

http://www.racing-database.com

&

http://www.sportsracing.de

...give an idea of just how ambitious such a project is.

You've got to get your schema right first.

Having just finished a painful exercise modifying my database to adjust the way drivers are held, I cannot recommend too highly spending a good long time really understanding the shape of the data you're going to hold. Collect lots of it in text form and then try fitting the most difficult examples into your database. Regularly throw the schema away and start again as you learn more.

Kvadrat's schema for holding meeting is not a bad start but you can't only think about F1 races (which is why I do not believe Forix is a useful model). A race might not start on the same date it finishes (Le Mans, early trials, races stopped halfway through and continued the following day) and you also need to allow for a variety of titles, many of which will be shared with events the next year. So the British GP is held every year but the Wendy Wools British GP and the RAC British GP are also titles needing to be held. Looking at your schema, I suspect country belongs only on Venue, not on Meeting; the same venue can have many names and formats - just look at Buenos Aires, Watkins Glen and Zeltweg - and I imagine date will be an attribute (i.e. a column), not an entity (i.e. a table).

The Scribble, scribble thread picked up on a number of these issues and I think it is a good primer for anyone who wants to start such an exercise. The XML schema that I developed for that exercise has been used on a number of occasions since that time and has proved reasonably successful. However, it does need to be enhanced to deal with shared drives and a range of other issues.

I'll be interested to see how you get on.

Allen

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
http://www.racing-database.com

&

http://www.sportsracing.de

...give an idea of just how ambitious such a project is.

A couple of nice examples. Notice that racing-database.com, having started out on F1 and F3000, can't cope with shared drives properly so you can't distinguish between a dead heat and two drivers sharing a car. On the other hand, sportsracing.de does a good job of the race results but holds little information on the race itself.

The same problem is being addressed in myriad inconsistent ways all over the Internet.

Allen

Speaking from experience, you must be able to handle the "gotchas".

I only record GPs from 1950 in my database, but I've had to do some extra coding to account for all of those shared drives (and points) back in the '50s.

For example, Moss & Brooks shared a Vanwall when they won the British GP in 1957. If you list the results of that race, you should show the shared drive, so each driver should show up twice. But remember that a driver can only start a race once, no matter how many times he "finishes" (Farina & Trintignant both finished 2nd & 3rd in the Argentine GP in '55). This can affect a points/start listing, for example.

...then there are drivers who finished but never started the race (shared drives again).

...what constitutes a "start" anyway?

...drivers can finish in the top six and not get points (same for constructors).

...drivers can finish out of the top six and be awarded points (when the F2 class ran with the F1 cars).

...Indy 500 (1950-1960). Was a "Grand Prix"... Right?

This is just an example of the things I've run into. So try to think of all of the exceptions to the rule, so to speak, and allow for them.

Allen, thank you for your notes.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Having just finished a painful exercise modifying my database to adjust the way drivers are held, I cannot recommend too highly spending a good long time really understanding the shape of the data you're going to hold. Collect lots of it in text form and then try fitting the most difficult examples into your database. Regularly throw the schema away and start again as you learn more.

Very good advise. I made attempts to make text tables but at that time I considered only big races and dodn't think on various other kinds of events and meetings. Here's a table:

Date		Day	 Country	   Venue					 Race									  Class									Information



1.01.38	 Sat	 South Africa  East London			   South African Grand Prix				  racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938za.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#za]3[/URL]

9.01.38	 Sun	 Argentina	 Mar del Plata			 Gran Premio de Mar del Plata			  Potenza Libre							[URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938gro.htm]2[/URL] 

15.01.38	Sat	 South Africa  Cape Town				 Grosvenor Grand Prix					  racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.jmfangio.org/c193804necochea.htm]9[/URL]

27.03.38	Sun	 Argentina	 Necochea				  Premio Ciudad de Necochea				 Potenza Libre							

2.04.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			Coronation Trophy						 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#coron]3[/URL]

3.04.38	 Sun	 Italy		 Brescia - Rome - Brescia  Mille Miglia							  sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#1]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-01.htm]5[/URL]

9.04.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Donington				 British Empire Trophy					 racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]

10.04.38	Sun	 France		Pau					   Grand Prix de Pau						 International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938pau.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#pau]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-01.htm]5[/URL]

18.04.38	Mon	 Great Britain Brooklands				Campbell Trophy						   Formula Libre							

18.04.38	Mon	 Australia	 Bathurst				  Australian Grand Prix					 racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]

23.04.38	Sat	 Ireland	   Carrigrohane			  Cork Grand Prix						   International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#cork]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-02.htm]5[/URL]

23.04.38	Sat	 Ireland	   Carrigrohane			  International Light Car Race			  1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#corkv]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-021.htm]5[/URL]

23.04.38	Sat	 Ireland	   Carrigrohane			  Handicap								  racing cars handicap					 

24.04.38	Sun	 Argentina	 Parana					Parque Urquiza (?)						Potenza Libre							

24.04.38	Sun	 Italy		 ?						 Coppa dei Colli Torinesi				  sport cars, Sport Nazionale			  [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=36913]7[/URL]

7.05.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Brooklands				JCC International Trophy				  racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]

8.05.38	 Sun	 France		Montlhery				 Coupe de Paris							Formula Libre							[URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#4]4[/URL]

8.05.38	 Sun	 France		Montlhery				 1.5 litre sportcar race				   1.5 litre sport cars					 [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#2]4[/URL]

8.05.38	 Sun	 France		Montlhery				 2 litre sportcar race					 2 litre sport cars					   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#3]4[/URL]

8.05.38	 Sun	 France		Montlhery				 Grand Handicap Olazur					 sport car handicap					   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#5]4[/URL]

9.05.38	 Mon	 Brazil		Gavea					 Circuito de Gavea Nacional				Forca Libre							  [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp381.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#gavea]3[/URL]

15.05.38	Sun	 Libya		 Mellaha				   Gran Premio di Tripoli					International Grand Prix +			   [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938trip.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#trip]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-03.htm]5[/URL]

																									  1.5 litre racing cars

15.05.38	Sun	 Argentina	 San Francisco			 Campeonato Cordobes de Velocidad		  Potenza Libre							

21.05.38	Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			Sydenham Trophy / Grand Composite Meeting racing cars handicap					 

22.05.38	Sun	 Italy		 Palermo (Favorita Park)   Targa Florio							  1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#tf]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-04.htm]5[/URL]

22.05.38	Sun	 Belgium	   Antwerpen				 2 litre sportcar race					 2 litre sport cars					   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#6]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-02.htm]5[/URL]

22.05.38	Sun	 Belgium	   Antwerpen				 Antwerpen Grand Prix					  sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#7]4[/URL]

29.05.38	Sun	 Italy		 Parma - Poggio di Berceto Parma - Poggio di Berceto hillclimb	   sport cars, Sport Nazionale			  

30.05.38	Mon	 USA		   Indianapolis			  500 Mile Race							 International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938ind.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.motorsport.com/stats/champ/data/ch193801.pdf]6[/URL]

5.06.38	 Sun	 Belgium	   Chimay					2 litre sportcar race					 2 litre sport cars					   [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#front2]3[/URL]

5.06.38	 Sun	 Belgium	   Chimay					Grand Prix des Frontieres				 Formula Libre							[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#frontl]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-041.htm]5[/URL]

6.06.38	 Mon	 France		Montlhery				 Bol d'Or								  sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#8]4[/URL]

12.06.38	Sun	 Brazil		Gavea					 Grande Premio da Cidade de Rio de Janeiro Forca Libre							  [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#rio]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-05.htm]5[/URL]

12.06.38	Sun	 France		Peronne				   Grand Prix de Picardie					1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#pic]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-06.htm]5[/URL]

17-18.06.38 Fri-Sat France		Le Mans				   24 Heures du Mans						 sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#9]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-03.htm]5[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamquail.com/register/1938.htm]10[/URL]

19.06.38	Sun	 Italy		 Circuito delle Zappelle   Coppa Ascoli							  sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#10]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-04.htm]5[/URL]   [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=36913]7[/URL]

25.06.38	Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			London Grand Prix						 racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23964]8[/URL]

26.06.38	Sun	 Italy		 Napoli					Coppa Principessa di Piemonte			 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#piem]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-07.htm]5[/URL]

3.07.38	 Sun	 France		Rheims					Grand Prix de l'A.C.F.					International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp383.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938f.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#acf]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-08.htm]5[/URL]

3.07.38	 Sun	 Italy		 Argegno - Lanzo d'Intelvi Trofeo Val d'Intelvi hill climb		   touring cars, Sport Nazionale			[URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=36913]7[/URL]

9.07.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Donington				 Nuffield Trophy						   racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp383.htm]1[/URL]

9-10.07.38  Sat-Sun Belgium	   Spa					   Les 24 Heures de Spa					  sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#11]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-05.htm]5[/URL]

10.07.38	Sun	 France		Albi					  Grand Prix de l'Albigeois				 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp383.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#albi]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-09.htm]5[/URL]

10.07.38	Sun	 Italy		 Pontedecimo - Giovi	   Pontedecimo - Giovi hill climb			sport cars, Sport Nazionale			  [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=36913]7[/URL]

16.07.38	Sat	 Great Britain Brooklands				3 Hour Handicap						   sport car handicap					   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#12]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-06.htm]5[/URL]

17.07.38	Sun	 Italy		 Varese					1.5 litre racing car race				 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp383.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#varese]3[/URL]

24.07.38	Sun	 Germany	   Nurburgring			   Grosser Preis von Deutschland			 International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp383.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938d.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#d]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-10.htm]5[/URL]

5.08.38	 Fri	 France		Nice - La Turbie		  La Turbie Hillclimb					   ?										[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp383.htm]1[/URL]

7.08.38	 Sun	 Italy		 Livorno				   Coppa Ciano							   International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp384.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938cc.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#ciano]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-11.htm]5[/URL]

7.08.38	 Sun	 Italy		 Livorno				   1.5 litre racing car race				 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp384.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#cianov]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-111.htm]5[/URL]

13.08.38	Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			Crystal Palace Cup						racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23964]8[/URL]

13.08.38	Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			Crystal Palace Plate					  sport car handicap					   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#13]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-07.htm]5[/URL]

14.08.38	Sun	 Italy		 Pescara				   Coppa Acerbo							  International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp384.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938ca.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#acerbo]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-12.htm]5[/URL]

14.08.38	Sun	 Italy		 Pescara				   1.5 litre racing car race				 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp384.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#acerbv]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-112.htm]5[/URL]

15.08.38	Mon	 Italy		 Pescara				   Targa Abruzzi							 sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#14]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-08.htm]5[/URL]   [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=36913]7[/URL]

21.08.38	Sun	 Switzerland   Bremgarten				Prix de Berne							 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp385.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#berne]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-131.htm]5[/URL]

21.08.38	Sun	 Switzerland   Bremgarten				Grosser Preis der Schweiz				 International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp385.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938ch.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#ch]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-13.htm]5[/URL]

21.08.38	Sun	 Italy		 Stelvio				   Corsa dello Stelvio					   sport cars, Sport Nazionale			  [URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=36913]7[/URL]

27.08.38	Sat	 Great Britain Brooklands				JCC 200 Mile Race						 Formula Libre +						  [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp385.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#jcc]3[/URL]

																									  1.1 litre racing cars + 

																									  1.5 litre racing cars

28.08.38	Sun	 France		La Baule				  Grand Prix de La Baule					1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp385.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#baule]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-132.htm]5[/URL]

28.08.38	Sun	 Germany	   Grossglockner			 Grosser Bergpreis von Deutschland		 ?										[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp385.htm]1[/URL]

30.08.38	Tue	 Argentina	 Rosario				   Gran Premio de Rosario					Potenza Libre							

3.09.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Donington				 RAC Tourist Trophy						sport car handicap					   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#15]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-09.htm]5[/URL]

4.09.38	 Sun	 Italy		 Lucca					 Coppa Edda Ciano						  1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp385.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#edda]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-14.htm]5[/URL]

10.09.38	Sat	 USA		   Syracuse				  100 Mile Race							 International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.motorsport.com/stats/champ/data/ch193802.pdf]6[/URL]

11.09.38	Sun	 Italy		 Monza					 Gran Premio di Milano					 1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp386.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#milan]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-151.htm]5[/URL]

11.09.38	Sun	 Italy		 Monza					 Gran Premio d'Italia					  International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp386.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/19261949/1938i.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#i]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-15.htm]5[/URL]

11.09.38	Sun	 France		Montlhery				 12 Heures de Paris						sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#16]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-10.htm]5[/URL]

11.09.38	Sun	 Argentina	 Rafaela				   500 Millas Argentinas					 Potenza Libre							[URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#17]1[/URL]

17.09.38	Sat	 Great Britain Brooklands				BRDC Road Race							racing cars handicap					 

18.09.38	Sun	 Italy		 Modena					Circuito di Modena						1.5 litre racing cars					[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp386.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html#modena]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-152.htm]5[/URL]

25.09.38	Sun	 Switzerland   Maloja					Maloja Hill Climb						 ?										[URL=http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?threadid=48963]7[/URL]

25.09.38	Sun	 Argentina	 Olavarria				 Potenza Libre race						Potenza Libre							

2.10.38	 Sun	 Argentina	 Casilda				   Potenza Libre race						Potenza Libre							

5.10.38	 Wed	 Romania	   Feleac					Feleac Hill Climb						 ?										[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp386.htm]1[/URL]

9.10.38	 Sun	 Brazil		Jardim America			Grande Premio de Sao Paulo				Forca Libre							  

8.10.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			Imperial Trophy						   racing cars handicap					 [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#18]4[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/Gold-1938-11.htm]5[/URL]

8.10.38	 Sat	 Great Britain Crystal Palace			Imperial Plate							sport cars							   

15.10.38	Sat	 Great Britain Brooklands				Mountain Championship					 Formula Libre							[URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp386.htm]1[/URL]

15.10.38	Sat	 Great Britain Brooklands				Siam Trophy							   1.5 litre s/c, 1.5 litre u/s racing cars 

22.10.38	Sat	 Great Britain Donington				 Donington Grand Prix					  International Grand Prix				 [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp386.htm]1[/URL]   [URL=http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/grange/54/index2.htm]2[/URL]   [URL=file:///D:/formula1/seasons/1938/gp-38/doningtongp(22.10.38)/www.teamdan.com/archive/gen/1938/1938r.html]3[/URL]   [URL=http://www.racing-database.com/F1-1938-16.htm]5[/URL]

13.11.38	Sun	 Argentina	 Tres Arroyos			  Premio 250 Millas Ciudad de Tres Arroyos  Potenza Libre							[URL=http://www.jmfangio.org/c193805tresarroyos.htm]9[/URL]

??.??.38	?	   Portugal	  Vila Real				 Spor car race							 sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#19]4[/URL]

??.??.38	?	   Romania	   Bucharest				 Bucharest Grand Prix					  sport cars							   [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/prewar1938.html#20]4[/URL]





Information sources:



1. [URL=http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/main.htm]The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing[/URL]

2. [URL=http://members.fortunecity.com/quintin_cloud/index2.htm]Formula 1 Homepage of GP results & History[/URL]

3. [URL=http://www.teamdan.com/archive/almanac.html]The GEL Motorsport Information Page[/URL]

4. [URL=http://wsrp.wz.cz/]The World of Sports Prototypes Racing[/URL]

5. [URL=http://www.racing-database.com]Racing Database[/URL]

6. [URL=http://www.motorsport.com/index.asp]Motorsport.com[/URL]

7. [URL=http://forums.atlasf1.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10]The Nostalgia Forum[/URL]

8. [URL=http://www.ten-tenths.com/]10 Tenth Motorsport Forum[/URL]

9. [URL=http://www.jmfangio.org/index.html]Un tributo al chueco... Juan Manuel Fangio[/URL]

10. Other

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Kvadrat's schema for holding meeting is not a bad start but you can't only think about F1 races (which is why I do not believe Forix is a useful model).

It's been for a long time that I realised that so called F1 (which in Common Knowledge means those WDC events) isn't correct way of understanding history. No. I'd like to build database for events of period before all motorsport divided into championships and series. It's difficult but interesting. So called F1 don't consider MEETINGS, it contains only WDC events thinking that they were the only in existence.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
A race might not start on the same date it finishes (Le Mans, early trials, races stopped halfway through and continued the following day)...

Good note, thank you.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
... and you also need to allow for a variety of titles, many of which will be shared with events the next year. So the British GP is held every year but the Wendy Wools British GP and the RAC British GP are also titles needing to be held.

I considered this and in Venues table made columns for "Description" and "Name". Description is for example Canadian Grand Prix which is simple and useful. Name is exact title which is Grand Prix du Canada until 1979, Grand Prix Labatt du Canada from 1980 to 1986, Molson Grand Prix du Canada in 1988, Grand Prix Molson du Canada from 1989 to ? and so on.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Looking at your schema, I suspect country belongs only on Venue, not on Meeting;

No, country belong to both Venue and Meeting and I think it will be better to made reference to country from Races table.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
the same venue can have many names and formats - just look at Buenos Aires, Watkins Glen and Zeltweg - and I imagine date will be an attribute (i.e. a column), not an entity (i.e. a table).

So every different format of the venue will have individual ID.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The Scribble, scribble thread picked up on a number of these issues and I think it is a good primer for anyone who wants to start such an exercise.

I think you mean this thread: Scribble, Scribble, Scribble? I will read it today.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
However, it does need to be enhanced to deal with shared drives and a range of other issues.

At the moment I don't want to deal with drivers and races results. But I will keep in mind notes on shared drives etc. Thank you.

SQL was mentioned. Is it better way than using MS Access?

Microsoft SQL is the next step up from Access. Microsoft SQL would be the way to go if you were expecing heavy usage but depeding on your server setup and number of processors can be costly.

I've been using MySQL recently and have been very impressed. It seems effectively as good as MS SQL Server but with the important advantage that it's free.

Allen

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I've been using MySQL recently and have been very impressed. It seems effectively as good as MS SQL Server but with the important advantage that it's free.

Allen

Free? Really? I know it's a lot cheaper than other databases, but free?!!

Originally posted by martinnolan
Hi all,

I have had a good read of the posts and wish you all the best with your developments. We undertook a very similar development to enter all grand prix results from 1950 into an online database.

Looks good, Martin. I'd be very interested in having another look when it's finished.

Originally posted by MCS


Free? Really? I know it's a lot cheaper than other databases, but free?!!

Free to download and develop on. It depends on how your hosting works as to whether to can host a MySQL db for free too. The ISP I use for OldRacingcars.com charges me £10 per annum for up to 150Mb which seems very reasonable. The ISP I use for another project I'll be launching in May (non motor racing so don't anyone get excited - unless you know what an R68(2000) is) charges nothing for your first three MySQL databases.

Allen

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Free to download and develop on. It depends on how your hosting works as to whether to can host a MySQL db for free too. The ISP I use for OldRacingcars.com charges me £10 per annum for up to 150Mb which seems very reasonable. The ISP I use for another project I'll be launching in May (non motor racing so don't anyone get excited - unless you know what an R68(2000) is) charges nothing for your first three MySQL databases.

Allen

Well, you live and learn, as they say. Thanks for this Allen. Very much appreciated!

(I shall investigate further)...

Apache + PHP + MySQL make a pretty good combination. While on the subject, phpMyAdmin is an excellent admin frontend for mysql.

And what if I develop database for PC, not web server? Is SQL still better?

I've developed an extensive database/statistics system using MS Access and Visual Basic 6, but it's a stand-alone system. Now, I've heard that Microsoft has stopped supporting VB in favor of VB.net.

I went thru a similar situation with DOS BASIC to Visual Basic several years ago, so I'm going to start developing something using open-source "free" products -- PHP and MySQL and (eventually) put all of this on the web.

My first "baby" steps: Total Driver Points 1950-2005. http://www.stevewyant.com/php/gpdb.php

This is a MySQL query that runs against my own database I've created. The Race table has 19,450 rows (records) in it, one record for each Grand Prix driver entry since 1950. The query looks at this Race table, and adds up all the points scored for each driver in each race (in other words, MS's total of 1,248 isn't actually stored anywhere; it's the sum of all the rows the query found where he scored points). The query also adds up total wins, 2nds etc. The result set is sorted by total by points and wins. It also gets the driver name from the Driver table and then nationality code from the Nationality table. I'm using PHP to run the query, and generate HTML tags to display the results on the screen.

(The fractions are just an experiment for now, I'll probabaly have to display the decimals instead)...

This is going to be a lot of work, but I think it's going to be fun.