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Auto Union: mysterious history

Started by anjakub , Feb 29 2004 19:03

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94 replies to this topic

#1 anjakub

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 19:03

The interesting book about post-war history of Auto Union will appear in Germany during March. “Im Osten verschollen” leaves in the most widely known German publishing house Motor Buch Verlag. Author of the book – Nikolai Aleksandrov is regular writer of company Autonet. Preface to the book and the necessary explanations for the German readers wrote prominent historian - professor Peter Kirchberg.
Aleksandrov wrote about history racing cars Auto Union, which mysteriously disappeared at the end of the war. They arrive on the reparations in the USSR. The author searched for these automobiles even in the German mines, but in essence in the territory of Russia and Ukraine. His search led both into Lithuania and into Latvia. In the book are given unique, also never published illustrations.

Web link: www.autonet.ru/localnews/index.asp?topicID=3&newID=1797

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#2 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 February 2004 - 21:32

It should sell easily in Germany with such a title. I might consider purchasing the book if the price is acceptable.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 00:01

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
It should sell easily in Germany with such a title. I might consider purchasing the book if the price is acceptable.

€24.90 at Amazon.de

#4 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 09:46

I can hardly expect to hold the book in my hands and keep start reading.... And pictures please!
I ordered my book two month ago and have to wait until it will be in my post box.

As some of you may remember, Kirchberg and Aleksandrov wrote that article about the history of the AUs in Russia in 2002 in the German magazine Oldtimer Markt.

#5 Brun

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 10:22

I pre-ordered it a couple of months ago, too...

#6 hans stuck

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 14:19

is there / will there be an english translation?? :cry:

#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 21:56

Originally posted by hans stuck
is there / will there be an english translation??

I think it's unlikely. None of Kirchberg's previous Auto Union books have been translated :

Probably one of those subjects that English-language publishers don't believe will sell, but very few German motor sport books seem to see the light of day in other languages anyway. MotorBuch Verlag and Heel both publish some excellent stuff, but they don't seem willing or able to sell foreign rights in them.

#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 23:27

Ordered my copy today - according to Amazon.de publication is now expected week commencing April 21st.

And what goes around, comes around. About four months ago I was beaten out on eBay for a copy of Kirchberg's Auto Union GP Report: I was outbid at about 50 Euros with three seconds to go :mad:

Today I got one for 22 Euros!! :clap:

I could probably sell it on to Collectors Carbooks at a handsome profit, as they seem to think £95 (about 150 Euros) is a fair price :eek:

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2004 - 23:39

You think that's good?

I can give you a real bargain on the Sydney Harbour Bridge...

#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 00:08

No thanks, I'll settle for the AGP 50 Year History that's on its way from Oz (I hope!) - got that on eBay too ...

#11 Holger Merten

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 14:17

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Ordered my copy today - according to Amazon.de publication is now expected week commencing April 21st.

That sounds great, Richard! I didn't receive my journalist copy until today. You will be the first reader after Kirchberg.

Make a post here, if the book is in your postbox next week. :confused:

And enjoy the AU GP report, for me one of the best motorsport-books. A real Kirchberg.

#12 Henk

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 21:14

You better prepare for disappointment.

I ordered a copy on 22 March. Optimistically, Amazon’s computer expected delivery between 26 March and 2 April. It still hasn’t changed its mind.

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 22:06

Originally posted by Henk
You better prepare for disappointment.

I ordered a copy on 22 March. Optimistically, Amazon’s computer expected delivery between 26 March and 2 April. It still hasn’t changed its mind.

As an ex-bookseller, why does that not surprise me? :rolleyes:

Publication dates are always "moveable feasts"

I'm a patient man .... and if Holger's review copy hasn't arrived yet, I shan't hold my breath.

#14 Holger Merten

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 10:34

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Ordered my copy today - according to Amazon.de publication is now expected week commencing April 21st.

#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 12:03

YIPPEEEE!!!!! IT'S ON ITS WAY!!!!!!

Subj: Ihre Amazon.de Bestellung wurde versandt (#XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX)
Date: 29/6/2004 6:03:38 am GMT Daylight time

Guten Tag,

unser Logistikzentrum hat den unten stehenden Artikel soeben verschickt!

Im Osten verschollen

#16 Holger Merten

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 12:10

Richard, we are all on the list. That could mean, that I will receive my issue also this week. Another nice piece of history to discuss herein the next weeks. Great!

#17 Henk

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 13:36

They changed the title….

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#18 Holger Merten

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 14:14

Sorry Henk, we forgot to inform you, that they changed the title. I was in contact with the Motorbuch Verlag. And the press dept. informed me two month ago about the change of the title.

#19 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 21:25

Who cares about the title?

At least they have a picture of a dual rear wheel car on the cover!

#20 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 01:12

My schoolboy German is going to get a full workout with this book. Glad to see that it is finally available, although it will take a while to find its way to Texas.

Does the statue behind the Type C/D have any significance?

#21 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 03:31

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
...Does the statue behind the Type C/D have any significance?

I cannot make out enough details in this small picture but it looks to me like a younger Ferdinand Porsche in the 30's. :rolleyes:

#22 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 06:23

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
I cannot make out enough details in this small picture but it looks to me like a younger Ferdinand Porsche in the 30's.

We will see, the one, who will receive the book first could proof that by posting some details from the pictures background. Perhaps there is a discription inside the book.

#23 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 07:19

Holger, I won't buy the book now, rather saving my money for the copy machines at the Basel library. Maybe you are kind enough and let me inspect the book coming October, so I can decide if I need to have it also.

#24 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 07:25

Hans, sure, every look will be possible. Enjoy our garden, we made several thinks new and have a deep look into the book.

#25 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 07:55

Holger, I will bring your favorite 'Red' for the evenings, if you like, or some of the special brew from the Münchner Oktoberfest. I will be there during the last week at the Wiesn and then ab nach Basel.

#26 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 June 2004 - 08:06

Hans, please send me your dates, cause there is a week for vacation planned in October.

#27 Brun

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 18:45

Just got my long overdue first copy of Kirchbergs latest Book, 'Dem Silder auf der Spur' (Tracking the Silver). It's available through Amazon and a co-production with Russia's leading motoring journalist Nikolai Alexandrow. Wonderful stuff!

Pages on the Sokol - with exactly the same information as we wrote on 8W 1 1/2 years ago. So nice to see that we were exactly right

There are some new pictures as well, I saw them at Wolfgang Beyer, but never got around to copying them. Won't have to bother now. And some new stuff, including snapshots from the DEFA motion picture that featured the Sokols... and pictures from the leftover bits of the second car in the Dresden Museum :eek:

And of course... loads and loads of stuff on what happened to the Auto Unions after the war, in Russia. Thoroughly researched. And a very, very interesting cliffhanger at the end - the author has found out that there's a more or less complete Auto Union Typ C that was smuggled back across the Ukrainian-Rumanian border somewhere around 1999 or 2000 and should currently reside in Germany... but no one knows where it is and who has it.

The book is in German, but I can recommend it to all Auto Union buffs here.

#28 Gary C

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 19:11

...............I wish now I had taken a lot more notice in my German lessons at school all those years ago...

#29 VWV

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 19:57

So what does the book say happened to the rest of Auto Unions that went to Russia? Do other bits and pieces of the cars still exist?

#30 Jonas

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 20:14

I can hardly wait until my copy arrives!!!

#31 Don Capps

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 20:28

Looks as if I am going to have to invest in this one myself.....

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 21:46

Originally posted by Gary C
...............I wish now I had taken a lot more notice in my German lessons at school all those years ago...

My sentiments exactly... then I'd have been able to echo Don's!

#33 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 July 2004 - 22:19

Originally posted by Jonas
I can hardly wait until my copy arrives!!!

Still waiting here too! I suppose Deutsche Post can get them to the Netherlands rather faster than to Sweden or Britain .... :

#34 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 00:18

Originally posted by Brun
Just got my long overdue first copy of Kirchbergs latest Book, 'Dem Silder auf der Spur' (Tracking the Silver). It's available through Amazon and a co-production with Russia's leading motoring journalist Nikolai Alexandrow. Wonderful stuff!

Glad to hear that the book is being shipped. I have very fortunately enlisted the assistance of a German friend to help me out with the difficult stuff. And she is very nice on the eyes as well! I always knew that my lack of proficiency in German would come in handy someday. :rotfl:

Originally posted by Brun
And a very, very interesting cliffhanger at the end - the author has found out that there's a more or less complete Auto Union Typ C that was smuggled back across the Ukrainian-Rumanian border somewhere around 1999 or 2000 and should currently reside in Germany... but no one knows where it is and who has it.

I cannot begin to imagine the horde of sleuths looking for this holy grail given this information. An authentic Type-C must be worth a kings ransom. I truly hope that the historians find it before the traders succeed.

#35 Brun

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 08:56

I must've read most of the book last night, being so eager to learn everything new. It's really good. Alexandrow talked to a LOT of people and fills up the big void that always existed when it came to researching the 'Russian edge' in the Auto Union story.

Up until know, the precise number of cars that went to Russia was always unknown. Most writers estimated 20, 25 Auto Unions making their way across the border. Alexandrow aims much lower, showing that it were probably 11 cars and a large load of parts. Some of them were taken apart in a Moscow research institute. One crashed in 1946 during a Soviet race, killing a dozen spectators. Several parts and perhaps complete cars have mysteriously disappeared. At the end, there's a table with the known history of each car until now. Interesting is the large number of bits and leftovers that he claims Karassik bought, with many Typ C-parts among them.

Even after all his work, there are large gaps left to fill, so the story still isn't finished. But he did way, way more than any Russian motoring journalist before him and for that only he already should be praised. By the way, the articles on autonet.ru that served as sources in our Sokol-story, were also his.

About the Sokol: Kirchberg gives some nice extra details, including pictures. We're going to use that to top up our articles on 8W soon ;) The same goes for the Auto Union Typ E. Not only shows the book the drawings of the 1.5 litre engine, it also confirms the rumor we heard on what happened to it. All parts of the (nearly completed) 1.5 litre Auto Union were stored in Chemnitz during the war. However, the warehouse in which they lay, burned to the ground in 1943 due to an electrical short. The fire took all parts with it

Of course, the lead on this mysterious Typ C alledgedly being smuggled into Germany only 4 years ago is very interesting, to say the least... If this book proves one thing, it's that there still are spectacular discoveries out there.

#36 duby

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 10:34

should i practice my germen for this book....?
is it worth it...?

#37 Racer.Demon

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 14:58

Originally posted by Brun
Most writers estimated 20, 25 Auto Unions making their way across the border. Alexandrow aims much lower, showing that it were probably 11 cars and a large load of parts. Some of them were taken apart in a Moscow research institute. One crashed in 1946 during a Soviet race, killing a dozen spectators.

It's even more amazing to realize what we don't know as opposed to what we have already unearthed. What about these "Soviet races"? I'm intrigued.

#38 Brun

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Posted 02 July 2004 - 15:04

Originally posted by duby
should i practice my germen for this book....?
is it worth it...?

YES.

#39 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 09:59

Originally posted by duby
should i practice my germen for this book....?
is it worth it...?

DEFINITELY!!

Got mine this morning .... only had a chance to look through the pictures so far, but it's a very impressive production, with some wonderful photos, not just of the Auto Unions: I think our Russian friends are going to be busy explaining some of these (if they'd be so kind ....)

OMG! A D-type Jag! How did THAT get there? (page 126) A Mille Miglia BMW roadster?? (page 171)

#40 Racer.Demon

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 18:39

Agree with you there, Richard. Had the opportunity to browse Brun's copy yesterday, and I was amazed by the intriguing Russian machinery pictured in the book - there's a whole world out there of which we know nothing!

And what a thrill to see the 1957 movie versions of the Sokols turned into, well, streamliners of some sort! Those fenders look both awful and compelling at the same time... (I know, these remarks are worthless without pictures.

)

#41 Holger Merten

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 14:05

I didn't receive my copy until now by the publisher. :cry:

That makes me very, very angry, cause Brun sent me details of the book via SMS to the Nürburgring.
:mad:

Therefore I hope that my copy would wait at home yesterday after a spectacular 1000 km race in the European Le Mans Series at the Nürburgring. What a race... we had Ringweather. with sunshine and heavy rain changing hour by hour.... The race was won by two Silverarrows from the Audi UK team on position 1 and 2. :clap:

And they are not on the way to russia. :lol:

But this is the Nostalgia Forum, sorry.
:blush:

#42 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 14:44

Like they say (and you said to me once), Holger: **** happens!

For those like duby and Dennis who are worried their German might not be up to it: don't! Those of us whose first language is not German are fortunate that Alexandrov appears to have written the book in German himself - unlike Kirchberg's introduction, which is very hochdeutsch and which I really struggled with in places, it's in very simple language and easy to understand, providing you have more than a smattering of the way German works as a language. I only studied German to O-level (first examination level in the UK) and have had no problems at all! Except for assimilating all the new information anyway .... and that would apply whatever language it was in! As racer.demon has indicated there is so much for us Westerners to get our teeth into: there is much, much more than just the Silver Arrows stuff in it!

#43 Holger Merten

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 14:57

Yes Richard, thanks for the reminder...

Everything comes back. :rolleyes:

#44 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 15:01

Gotcha!

#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 21:10

Okay - for those who are interested, here's a rough summary of the fate of the Auto Unions. As Brun posted above, there were apparently eleven cars taken to Russia - 3 Typ D, 7 Typ C GP cars (including the C/D hillclimber - the Riga car) and 1 Typ C "Rekordwagen".

Of these eleven, only four complete cars are known/presumed to still exist, all of them Typ C chassis (again including the C/D) - but the whereabouts of one is unknown: the smuggled one Brun mentioned.

One Typ D was wrecked in testing in 1946 and it would seem that the remains were scrapped.

Two more (one each of Typ C and Typ D) were dismantled with no apparent trace of any remaining parts, chassis or engine.

Four further engines (three Typ C and a Typ D) exist, also from dismantled cars - the state or whereabouts (if any) of their chassis is not known.

So - perhaps still to be found: up to six more chassis and a couple of engines! Not including the wreck ....

#46 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 07:39

@ Brun 2005 will be the year to make holidays in russia!;)

AFAIK, your girlfriends speaks russian, that makes investigations easier.

#47 Brun

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 10:11

Well, her Russian is very very rusty, but I'll see if I can persuade her :lol:

Vitesse: of course, much of that stuff has come back in the West through the Karassiks, as the table at the end of the book shows.

#48 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 12:23

Originally posted by Brun
Vitesse: of course, much of that stuff has come back in the West through the Karassiks, as the table at the end of the book shows.

Indeed - the synopsis I did was a text version of the table. But in his foreword, Kirchberg says there were something like fifteen AUs extant in early 1939. Obviously, it's not beyond the bounds of possibilty that by the end of the season all but eleven had been destroyed/dismantled/cannibalised, but one wonders if there might be more cars to be found ..... somewhere .....

So are the large numbers of parts the Karassiks apparently got evidence of their destruction? Or did those all come from the cars dismantled in Russia and from pre-War stocks?