Pre-qualifying - late 1980s/early 1990s

When, between 1988 (or was it 1989?) and 1992 we had more than 30 cars turning up to each GP how did the authorities decide exactly which drivers/teams would have to prequalify?

In particular how was it that on some occasions one driver in a team would have to PQ and the other did not? For example in the first half of 1992 only Alboreto of the Footwork drivers had to PQ.

Thanks

Originally posted by arcsine
When, between 1988 (or was it 1989?) and 1992 we had more than 30 cars turning up to each GP how did the authorities decide exactly which drivers/teams would have to prequalify?

In particular how was it that on some occasions one driver in a team would have to PQ and the other did not? For example in the first half of 1992 only Alboreto of the Footwork drivers had to PQ.

Thanks

The rules said:

o Prequalifying takes place from 08:00 to 09:00 two days before
the race (three days before at Monaco). There is a
prequalifying session if a GP has more than 30 entrants.
The top 26 cars in the Constructors Championship over the
previous two half seasons are exempt from prequalifying; all
others must run in the prequalifying session. The four cars
with fastest times during prequalifying join the 26 exempt
cars in practice and qualifying.

Prequalifying was known (at least to UK fans) due to its early schedule as "The Wide-Awake Club", after a highly irritating childrens' breakfast TV show!

There was no PQ session at Kyalami - although 32 cars turned up, two of them were old Colonis brought by the Andrea Moda team, and these were chucked out ;)

Andrea Moda brought one car in Brazil, two in Spain.

I suspect the "one Arrows in PQ" was something to do with Fondmetal, who only had one car, being ahead of them in '91 - Fondmetal expanded to two cars in '92, so the "Wide Awake Club" for the first half of the season was two Andrea Modas, two Venturi Larrousses, one Arrows and one Fondmetal.

If at least one team didn't turn up there was no PQ session as there were only 30 cars present - hence when Brabham, Larrousse or Andrea Moda skipped races there was no prequalification.

At mid-season, Alboreto was promoted out of PQ and Tarquini's Fondmetal was relegated - so the "Wide Awake Club" consisted of a pair of Venturi Larrousses, a pair of Andrea Modas and a pair of Fondmetals...

Prequalifying was introduced in 1989, simply because no less than 38 cars had entered for the first GP. It was decided that the botton-four teams from previous seasons latter half had to pre-qualify, as well as all new teams. So at the first day of the 1989 Brazilian Grand Prix-weekend, Osella, Zakspeed, EuroBrun, Zakspeed and Coloni had to get up early. The new teams were Onyx and Brabham, the latter team returning from a sabbattical. Also, when a team expanded from a one to two car-operation, it was the second car that had to participate in friday mornings battlefield. This fate befell Volker Weidler (Rial) and Alex Caffi (Dallara). When AGS had replaced their initial first driver Philipe Streiff for Gabriele Tarquini, it was Joachim winkelhock who was also doomed to join in.

Next is from GrandPrix.com:

The Brabham team showed very quickly that pre-qualifying could be beaten and the first eight races Modena and Brundle were consistently successful in pre-qualifying and as they gained championships points in the races, so the threat of having of continue pre-qualifying in the second half of the season faded. Caffi also got through on most occasions which meant that in reality there were 10 cars were fighting for a single place.

The competition was so hot that at Monaco three of the top six in the race had started the weekend as pre-qualifiers, including third-placed Modena. Later in the year Johansson did the same trick in Portugal.

Pre-qualifying started at eight o'clock on Friday morning and lasted one hour. With so many cars and so many young drivers there were some mighty accidents as they were all using one-lap special qualifying tires. It was a time when he tire war between Goodyear and Pirelli was intense. Traffic could make the difference between success and failure and so huge risks were taken.

As the teams became ever-more competitive the line between success and failure became ever finer. Brundle cut it as fine as was possible in Monaco when he slipped in by just 0.021 second quicker than Ghinzani's Osella. In Canada Caffi began his flying lap just five seconds before the checkered flag and bumped Brundle on that very last lap.

At the French GP Johansson escaped pre-qualifying and managed to get his Onyx home in fifth place. The two points he scored put Onyx ahead of Minardi. It looked bad for the Italian team but a week later at Silverstone Pierluigi Martini and Luis Sala took their Minardis to fifth and sixth in the British GP - collecting three points and escaping pre-qualifying. It is one of Giancarlo's Minardi's best memories...

After the British GP the rankings were changed, based on the results of the teams for the two previous "half-seasons". Christian Danner's fortunate fourth place in Phoenix, Arizona at the start of the year meant that Rial became an automatic qualifier from mid-season onwards. Weidler never once qualified in the second part of the year. Nor for that matter did Danner in the second half of the year.

Brabham was promoted as was Caffi and into pre-qualifying dropped the two Larrousse cars (Philippe Alliot and Michele Alboreto). The results became closer and closer. At the German GP Michele Alboreto edged out Yannick Dalmas's AGS by the smallest possible margin available with the timing system - 0.001 second - and that in the closing minutes of the session.

The Larrousse team started to arrive with a fleet of motorcycles which were stationed around the track to ensure that if one of the cars broke down, the driver could be returned to the pits in a hurry.

As the year went on frustration grew and so firings began. AGS dumped Jo Winkelhock and put Yannick Dalmas in. Pierre-Henri Raphanel, desperate not to waste his sponsorship switched to Rial, ousting Weidler. Foitek fell out with EuroBrun and was replaced by Oscar Larrauri and at Onyx Gachot talked faster than he drove and that gave the team the excuse to dump him in favor of JJ Lehto.

Pre-qualifying continued in 1990 but the numbers were down and by the end of the year it was no longer necessary, the extra teams had all died out.

Originally posted by arcsine
When, between 1988 (or was it 1989?) and 1992 we had more than 30 cars turning up to each GP how did the authorities decide exactly which drivers/teams would have to prequalify?

And I think if you look closely at previous seasons you'll find other instances of pre-qualifying. Off the top of my head, the British GP 1977...

TW

In Foro Historia TheF1.com (Spanish Forum) I posted a complete list of all drivers who run Prequalifying from 1988 to 1992:

1988

All GPs but San Marino (Larini failed scrutineering), Monaco (Modena DQ after missing weight check) and Mexico (Modena DQ for rear wing infringement)

• 21 Nicola Larini (Osella turbo) (from Germany to Australia)
• 22 Andrea De Cesaris (Rial Ford) (from Brazil to Great Britain)
• 31 Gabriele Tarquini (Coloni Ford)
• 31 Oscar Larrauri (EuroBrun Ford)
• 33 Stefano Modena (EuroBrun Ford)
• 36 Alex Caffi (BMS Dallara Scuderia Italia Ford)

1989 - 1st half-season

Brazil, San Marino, Monaco, Mexico, USA, Canada, France, Great Britain

• 7 Martin Brundle (Brabham Judd)
• 8 Stefano Modena (Brabham Judd)
• 17 Nicola Larini (Osella Ford)
• 18 Piercarlo Ghinzani (Osella Ford)
• 21 Alex Caffi (BMS Dallara Scuderia Italia Ford)
• 32 Pierre-Henri Raphanel (Coloni Ford)
• 33 Gregor Foitek (EuroBrun Judd)
• 34 Bernd Schneider (Zakspeed Yamaha)
• 35 Aguri Suzuki (Zakspeed Yamaha)
• 36 Stefan Johansson (Onyx Ford)
• 37 Bertrand Gachot (Onyx Ford)
• 39 Volker Weidler (Rial Ford)
• 41 Joachim Winkelhock (AGS Ford) (from Brazil to France)
• 41 Yannick Dalmas (AGS Ford) (Great Britain only)

1989 - 2nd half-season

Germany, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Japan, Australia

• 17 Nicola Larini (Osella Ford)
• 18 Piercarlo Ghinzani (Osella Ford)
• 29 Michele Alboreto (Lola Larrousse Ford)
• 30 Philippe Alliot (Lola Larrousse Ford)
• 31 Roberto Moreno (Coloni Ford)
• 32 Pierre-Henri Raphanel (Coloni Ford) (Germany and Hungary)
• 32 Enrico Bertaggia (Coloni Ford) (from Belgium to Australia)
• 33 Gregor Foitek (EuroBrun Judd) (from Germany to Belgium)
• 33 Oscar Larrauri (EuroBrun Judd) (from Italy to Australia)
• 34 Bernd Schneider (Zakspeed Yamaha)
• 35 Aguri Suzuki (Zakspeed Yamaha)
• 36 Stefan Johansson (Onyx Ford)
• 37 Bertrand Gachot (Onyx Ford) (from Germany to Italy)
• 37 JJ Lehto (Onyx Ford) (from Portugal to Australia)
• 40 Gabriele Tarquini (AGS Ford)
• 41 Yannick Dalmas (AGS Ford)

1990

USA, Brazil, San Marino, Monaco, Canada, Mexico, France, Great Britain, Germany, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Portugal, Spain.
Onyx retired after Hungary GP; EuroBrun and Life after Spain GP. For this reason, in last 2 GPs (Japan and Australia) there were no prequalifying.

• 14 Oliver Grouillard (Osella Ford)
• 17 Gabriele Tarquini (AGS Ford)
• 18 Yannick Dalmas (AGS Ford)
• 25 Philippe Alliot (Ligier Ford) (Germany and Hungary)
• 26 Nicola Larini (Ligier Ford) (Germany and Hungary)
• 29 Eric Bernard (Lola Espo Larrousse Ford) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 30 Aguri Suzuki (Lola Espo Larrousse Ford) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 31 Betrand Gachot (Coloni Ford)
• 33 Roberto Moreno (EuroBrun Judd)
• 34 Claudio Langes (EuroBrun Judd)
• 39 Gary Brabham (Life) (USA and Brazil)
• 39 Bruno Giacomelli (Life) (from San Marino to Spain)

1991

USA, Brazil, San Marino, Monaco, Canada, Mexico, France, Great Britain, Germany, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Japan, Australia

• 7 Martin Brundle (Brabham Yamaha) (from Great Britain to Australia)
• 8 Mark Blundell (Brabham Yamaha) (from Great Britain to Australia)
• 9 Michele Alboreto (Footwork Porsche and Ford) (from Great Britain to Australia)
• 10 Alex Caffi (Footwork Porsche and Ford) (from Great Britain to Australia)
• 14 Oliver Grouillard (Osella Ford) (from USA to Portugal)
• 14 Gabriele Tarquini (Osella Ford) (from Spain to Australia)
• 17 Gabriele Tarquini (AGS Ford) (from Germany to Portugal)
• 17 Oliver Grouillard (AGS Ford) (Spain only)
• 18 Fabrizio Barbazza (AGS Ford) (from Germany to Spain)
• 21 Emanuele Pirro (BMS Dallara Scuderia Italia Ford) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 22 JJ Lehto (BMS Dallara Scuderia Italia Ford) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 31 Pedro Matos Chaves (Coloni Ford) (from USA to Spain)
• 31 Naoki Hattori (Coloni Ford) (Japan and Australia)
• 32 Betrand Gachot (Jordan Ford) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 33 Andrea De Cesaris (Jordan Ford) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 34 Nicola Larini (Lambo Modena Team Lamborghini) (from USA to Great Britain)
• 35 Eric Van De Poele (Lambo Modena Team Lamborghini) (from USA to Great Britain)

1992

Brazil, Spain, San Marino, Monaco, Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Hungary. There were no prequalifying in remaining GPs.

• 9 Michele Alboreto (Footwork Mugen) (from Brazil to Canada)
• 14 Andrea Chiesa (Fondmetal Ford) (from Brazil to Germany)
• 14 Eric Van De Poele (Fondmetal Ford) (Hungary)
• 15 Gabriele Tarquini (Fondmetal Ford) (from Great Britain to Hungary)
• 29 Betrand Gachot (Larrousse Venturi Lamborghini)
• 30 Ukyo Katayama (Larrousse Venturi Lamborghini)
• 34 Roberto Moreno (Andrea Moda Judd)
• 35 Perry McCarthy (Andrea Moda Judd) (from Spain to Hungary)

Ciao,
Guido

Edit: 1988 added, as I forgot it!

Originally posted by Twin Window
And I think if you look closely at previous seasons you'll find other instances of pre-qualifying. Off the top of my head, the British GP 1977...

AFAIK pre-qualifying were run from 1977 to 1982 or 1983. I know for sure on the following GPs, but I could have miss some more:

• 1977 - Great Britain GP (I have no result)
• 1978 - USA West GP (run on Friday morning) : Patrese, Merzario, Lunger and Stommelen prequalified; Rosberg, Rebaque, Ongais and Daly didn't prequalify
• 1978 - Monaco GP: Patrese and Stommelen prequalified; Rosberg, Daly, Arnoux, Rebaque, Lunger, Merzario didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Belgium GP (run on Thursday May 11, one week before GP) : Stommelen, Rosberg, Arnoux, Giacomelli prequalified. After Tambay retired in practice, also Lunger (1st driver not prequalified) could run practice: he qualified 24th (last) and he arrived 7th.
  Rebaque and Merzario didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Spain GP (run on Friday morning) : Rebaque, Stommelen, Merzario, Lunger prequalified; Rosberg didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Germany GP (run on Monday June 26th, one month before GP) : Rosberg, Merzario and Merzario prequalified; Arnoux and Lunger didn't prequalify. Stommelen and Ertl were admitted to practice without prequalify.
• 1978 - Austria GP (run on friday morning) : Lunger, Ertl, Rebaque, Piquet, Arnoux, Rosberg, Merzario prequalified; Stommelen didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Netherlands GP (run on Monday July 31st, nearly one month before GP) : Giacomelli, Lunger, Merzario, Rosberg, Piquet, Arnoux and Rebaque prequalified; Ertl, Ongais and Stommelen didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Italy GP (run on Sunday September 3rd, one week before GP) : Rebaque, Piquet and Lunger prequalified; Ertl, Rosberg, Stommelen and Colombo didn't prequalify. Merzario and «Gimax» were admitted to practice without prequalify.
• 1979 - Monaco GP (run on Thursday morning) : Stuck and Mass prequalified; Brancatelli didn't prequalify; Rebaque retired for protest
• 1981 - Monaco GP: Tambay, Surer, Ghinzani and Gabbiani prequalified; Borgudd, Daly, Salazar, Henton and Warwick didn't prequalify
• 1982 - Belgium GP: I don't know who prequalified; De Villota and Paletti didn't prequalify
• 1982 - Monaco GP (run on Thursday morning) : Jarier, Mass and Warwick prequalified; T.Fabi, Paletti, Boesel, Serra, De Villota didn't prequalify

For sure there were no prequalify at Monaco 1980, but maybe be there were in 1983, and this could have been the last one.

Ciao,
Guido

I have re-read the original post and I think I went off on a tangent!

I should get more sleep - apologies...

TW

Originally posted by gdecarli
1977 - Great Britain GP (I have no result)

Villeneuve, Tambay, Jarier, Lunger and Henton made it, later joined by Merzario, Neve and deVillota; Purley, Kozarowitsky, Sutcliffe, Edwards, Trimmer, and McGuire failed to pre-qualify.

1982 - Belgium GP: I don't know who prequalified; De Villota and Paletti didn't prequalify

Warwick, Fabi, Jarier, and Boesel made it through.

[*]1978 - USA West GP (run on Friday morning) : Patrese, Merzario, Lunger and Stommelen prequalified; Rosberg, Rebaque, Ongais and Daly didn't prequalify

No such animal! I am sure you meant the Long Beach Grand Prix since there never was a USGP West.....

Originally posted by Don Capps


No such animal! I am sure you meant the Long Beach Grand Prix since there never was a USGP West.....

http://hometown.aol....nt121/LB76L.bmp

There was a United States GP East and West in the time that there was a GP at Long Beach and Watkins Glen, and then initially with Detroit after the demise of Watkins Glen.

But also the Pre Qualifying was an issue every year up to '83? at Monaco I believe the Theodores failed to pre qualify as there was an issue over tyres, but this was due to there only being 20 starters allowed until 1987.

32 cars............... those were the days

Originally posted by smithy
32 cars............... those were the days

39 in 1989! Actually the present 20 is the smallest average number of entrants per season since 1969. Asuming the same 20 drivers complete this season,this would be the smallest number of drivers to have has a chance at GP racing since it started in 1906.

Originally posted by gdecarli
AFAIK pre-qualifying were run from 1977 to 1982 or 1983. I know for sure on the following GPs, but I could have miss some more:

• 1977 - Great Britain GP (I have no result)
• 1978 - USA West GP (run on Friday morning) : Patrese, Merzario, Lunger and Stommelen prequalified; Rosberg, Rebaque, Ongais and Daly didn't prequalify
• 1978 - Monaco GP: Patrese and Stommelen prequalified; Rosberg, Daly, Arnoux, Rebaque, Lunger, Merzario didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Belgium GP (run on Thursday May 11, one week before GP) : Stommelen, Rosberg, Arnoux, Giacomelli prequalified. After Tambay retired in practice, also Lunger (1st driver not prequalified) could run practice: he qualified 24th (last) and he arrived 7th.
  Rebaque and Merzario didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Spain GP (run on Friday morning) : Rebaque, Stommelen, Merzario, Lunger prequalified; Rosberg didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Germany GP (run on Monday June 26th, one month before GP) : Rosberg, Merzario and Merzario prequalified; Arnoux and Lunger didn't prequalify. Stommelen and Ertl were admitted to practice without prequalify.
• 1978 - Austria GP (run on friday morning) : Lunger, Ertl, Rebaque, Piquet, Arnoux, Rosberg, Merzario prequalified; Stommelen didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Netherlands GP (run on Monday July 31st, nearly one month before GP) : Giacomelli, Lunger, Merzario, Rosberg, Piquet, Arnoux and Rebaque prequalified; Ertl, Ongais and Stommelen didn't prequalify.
• 1978 - Italy GP (run on Sunday September 3rd, one week before GP) : Rebaque, Piquet and Lunger prequalified; Ertl, Rosberg, Stommelen and Colombo didn't prequalify. Merzario and «Gimax» were admitted to practice without prequalify.
• 1979 - Monaco GP (run on Thursday morning) : Stuck and Mass prequalified; Brancatelli didn't prequalify; Rebaque retired for protest
• 1981 - Monaco GP: Tambay, Surer, Ghinzani and Gabbiani prequalified; Borgudd, Daly, Salazar, Henton and Warwick didn't prequalify
• 1982 - Belgium GP: I don't know who prequalified; De Villota and Paletti didn't prequalify
• 1982 - Monaco GP (run on Thursday morning) : Jarier, Mass and Warwick prequalified; T.Fabi, Paletti, Boesel, Serra, De Villota didn't prequalify

For sure there were no prequalify at Monaco 1980, but maybe be there were in 1983, and this could have been the last one.

Ciao,
Guido

Were those drivers admitted purely on their nationality ?

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
Were those drivers admitted purely on their nationality ?

IIRC, each organizer had some wild cards and they could admit whoever they want. Of course they decided according to nationality. I don't know why only Germans and Italians did it, I mean I don't know if there was a common rule or if any sigle organizer decided different rules for decided who had to prequalify and who not.

Ciao,
Guido

Hi Arcsine..

A looooooooooong time ago i posted som of the same quez.
You might wanna look at some results from that thread.

http://forums.atlasf...?threadid=31238]

Or searh for my username and then 'Prequalification'


Greetz
Ty

Just wondering, why was it that Caffi and not de Cesaris had to PQ in 1989? Caffi drove the single Dallara the previous year!!

Team decision: BMS had to prequalify one car only and they chose Caffi. I think because De Cesaris has a contract as first driver or something like this.
There are also some more examples: Alboreto in 1992, ...

Ciao,
Guido

Interesting, I always thought Alboreto would have definitely been first driver at Footwork in 1992, considering he'd driven for them for two seasons prior, had the lower number, and was just plain faster than Aguri Suzuki. Oh well...

To be honest the pre-qualifying era is one of the periods of F1 which interests me the most. I can imagine it at the time being the motor racing equivalent of a football league relegation scrap, adding that extra bit of interest for the lesser teams.

Bloody 12-team limit

Originally posted by FerrariV12
and was just plain faster than Aguri Suzuki.

Maybe that's why he was choosen: he would have less problem to qualify than Suzuki...
Or he could have been choosen because of sponsor decision...
I don't know; I only want to say that if one team had two drivers and only one had to prequalify, they could choose what driver had to prequalify.
The only limit is that always the same drivers had to prequalify; it was not possible to rotate between two drivers...

Ciao,
Guido

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the prequalifiers for 89 and every successive year, were decided by the number of points the individual drivers for the first half year and the team for every following time. That is why Caffi rather than De Cesaris, but for Aguri and Michele I believe this was due to Michele being an existing driver for Footwork/Arrows and Aguri being the newcomer.

I think that is correct, but I am sure someone else in here has more knowledge about thge whole thing

No, IIRC they were decided only by the number of points each team scored in the last two halves of the year.
I mean: full previous year results for GP #1 to #8; then they counted only results form GP #9 to #16 of previous year and #1 to #8 of the current one.

Ciao,
Guido

Following on from what gilles said - I'm pretty sure it was decided by team order - but when only one car needed to PQ, perhaps that was decided on the Drivers Championship?? - Suzuki scored more points than Alboreto in 1991 (he was sixth in Phoenix and not even Alboreto could drag the 1991 Footwork anywhere near the points) - De Cesaris nabbed three points (for Rial) while Caffi didn't get any in Dallara's first year.

I remember the rules have been explained on German TV coverage when at the end of 1988 surprising knowledge came, that the rial team would have to send one car into prequalifying the next season in spite of having score 4 points, while Ligier with 0 points would have not. Originally it was said, that the team results of the previous two half-seasons would decide, with the best 13 teams would not have to take part in pre-qualifying. If not 13 teams would have scored points, then the "majority of best placings" would be the decider. This would have lead to the following results at the beginning of 1989 (so counting the complete 1988 results):

scored points 10 teams: McLaren, Ferrari, Benetton, Arrows, Lotus, March, Williams, Tyrrell, rial, Minardi

"safe" teams:

11. Lola
2 x 7th (Dalmas, Monaco + USA), 4 x 9th (Dalmas, Mexico + Hungary - Alliot, Belgium + Japan), 2 x 10th (Alliot, Canada + Australia), 1 x 11th (Dalmas, Spain), 2 x 12th (Dalmas, San Marino - Alliot, Hungary), 2 x 13th (Dalmas, France + England), 2 x 14th (Alliot, England + Spain), 1 x 16th (Suzuki, Japan), 1 x 17th (Alliot, San Marino)

12. Dallara
1 x 7th (Caffi, Portugal), 2 x 8th (Caffi, USA + Belgium), 1 x 10th (Caffi, Spain), 1 x 11th (Caffi, England), 1 x 12th (Caffi, France), 1 x 15 (Caffi, Germany)

13. AGS
1 x 8th (Streiff, Japan), 1 x 9th (Streiff, Portugal), 2 x 10th (Streiff, San Marino + Belgium), 1 x 11th (Streiff, Australia), 1 x 12th (Streiff, Mexico)

pre-quailfiers:

14. Coloni
1 x 8th (Tarquini, Canada), 1 x 11th (Tarquini, Portugal), 1 x 13th (Tarquini, Hungary), 1 x 14th (Tarquini, Mexico)

15. Ligier
2 x 9th (Johansson, Brasil + Australia), 2 x 10th (Johansson, Mexico - Arnoux, Portugal), 1 x 11th (Johansson, Belgium), 1 x 13th (Arnoux, Italy), 2 x 17th (Arnoux, Germany + Japan), 1 x 18th (Arnoux, England)

16. Osella
1 x 9th (Larini, Monaco), 1 x 12th (Larini, Portugal), 1 x 19th (Larini, England)

17. EuroBrun
1 x 11th (Modena, Hungary), 2 x 12th (Modena, Canada + England), 2 x 13th (Larrauri, Mexico - Modena, Spain), 1 x 14th (Modena, France), 1 x 16th (Larrauri, Germany)

18. Zakspeed
1 x 12th (Schneider, Germany), 1 x 13th (Schneider, Belgium), 2 x 14th (Ghinzani, Canada + Germany), 1 x 15th (Ghinzani, Mexico)


Then I think it had to do with "political balance" or or Balestre´s influence or whatever, but it was soon discovered, that this would have ruled the traditional Ligier team "out" with teams like Minardi, rial, Dallara, Larrousse and even AGS in.

But the problem was, that an "individual" ranking would not have solved the problem either:

scoring points: 17 cars
(2 x McLaren, 2 x Ferrari, 2 x Benetton, 2 x Lotus, 2 x March, 2 x Arrows, 2 x Williams, 1 x Tyrrell, 1 x rial, 1 x Minardi)

"safe":

18. Lola #29 (Dalmas, Suzuki)
2 x 7th (Monaco + USA), 2 x 9th (Mexico + Hungary) 1 x 11th (Spain), 1 x 12th (San Marino), 2 x 13th (France + England), 1 x 16th (Suzuki, Japan)

19. Dallara #36 (Caffi)
1 x 7th (Portugal), 2 x 8th (USA + Belgium), 1 x 10th (Spain), 1 x 11th (England), 1 x 12th (France), 1 x 15 (Germany)

20. AGS #14 (Streiff)
1 x 8th (Japan), 1 x 9th (Portugal), 2 x 10th (San Marino + Belgium), 1 x 11th (Australia), 1 x 12th (Mexico)

21. Minardi #24 (Sala)
1 x 8th (Portugal), 1 x 10th (Hungary), 2 x 11th (San Marino + Monaco), 1 x 12th (Spain), 1 x 13th (Canada), 1 x 15th (Japan)

22. Coloni #31 (Tarquini)
1 x 8th (Canada), 1 x 11th (Portugal), 1 x 13th (Hungary), 1 x 14th (Mexico)

23. Lola #30 (Alliot)
2 x 9th (Belgium + Japan), 2 x 10th (Canada + Australia), 1 x 12th (Hungary), 2 x 14th (England + Spain), 1 x 17th (San Marino)

24. Ligier #26 (Johansson)
2 x 9th (Brasil + Australia), 1 x 10th (Mexico), 1 x 11th (Belgium)

25. Tyrrell #4 (bailey)
1 x 9th (USA), 1 x 12th (Italy), 1 x 14th (Japan), 1 x 16th (England)

26. Osella #21 (Larini)
1 x 9th (Monaco), 1 x 12th (Portugal), 1 x 19th (England)


and the unlucky ones:

27. Ligier #25 (Arnoux)
1 x 10th (Portugal), 1 x 13th (Italy), 2 x 17th (Germany + Japan), 1 x 18th (England)

28. EuroBrun #32 (Modena)
1 x 11th (Hungary), 2 x 12th (Canada + England), 1 x 13th (Spain), 1 x 14th (France)

29. Zakspeed #10 (Schneider)
1 x 12th (Germany), 1 x 13th (Belgium)

30. EuroBrun #33 (Larrauri)
1 x 13th (Mexico), 11 x 16th (Germany)

31. Zakspeed #9 (Ghinzani)
2 x 14th (Canada + Germany), 1 x 15th (Mexico)

Again this seems to have not been very much satisfying, so finally somebody "discovered" the very strange rule, that a team, which had only fielded one car could gain only one "safe" place, but nevertheless a two-car team would need only one good result for both cars. This automatically meant, that rial, Dallara and AGS each would loose one of their "safe" places and also Coloni - also in front of Ligier - would "free" only one of their entries and Ligier would just sneak in with their two cars in positions 25 and 26!

Originally posted by FerrariV12
Following on from what gilles said - I'm pretty sure it was decided by team order - but when only one car needed to PQ, perhaps that was decided on the Drivers Championship?? - Suzuki scored more points than Alboreto in 1991 (he was sixth in Phoenix and not even Alboreto could drag the 1991 Footwork anywhere near the points) - De Cesaris nabbed three points (for Rial) while Caffi didn't get any in Dallara's first year.

As far as I remember it was only the team´s decision who to enter as number one and who as number two driver. But usually this was the driver with the better results.

Hi all!

This era of 1989-1992 is one of my favourites, especially due to the pre-qualifying rule. I really loved this and I'm still very much interested in it. Therefore I have one request for all of you - could anybody please provide me the FULL 1989 pre-qualifying results (times) for all Grands Prix?
I thank you all in advance and thanks to all for this valuable information posted on this thread already!

Cheers!

Originally posted by scuderia
Hi all!

This era of 1989-1992 is one of my favourites, especially due to the pre-qualifying rule. I really loved this and I'm still very much interested in it. Therefore I have one request for all of you - could anybody please provide me the FULL 1989 pre-qualifying results (times) for all Grands Prix?
I thank you all in advance and thanks to all for this valuable information posted on this thread already!

Cheers!

Have you tried FORIX?

no i have not, because i don't have an account there...can't find much info about it on web.

I don't know whether you are able to read Russian - if you are, you can try this: http://stat.f1news.ru/gp.php?y=1989

Try www.formula1results.com

thanks guys, but unfortunately there is no full timed results for pre-qualifying from 1989. i did find 1990 and 1991 times thou, but still looking for 1989.

Haven't you noticed a barely visible light blue horizontal scrolling in the GP classification tables on F1News? Just pull it right - and there will be full times of those who DNQ and DNPQ.

Also there is ChicaneF1 site in the Net.

As an example try this page: http://chicanef1.dyn...ralia&type=qual

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Haven't you noticed a barely visible light blue horizontal scrolling in the GP classification tables on F1News? Just pull it right - and there will be full times of those who DNQ and DNPQ.

Yes I did notice that already, but it's of no use. You see - the 4 guys who made it through the Pre-Qually have the time of the officila qualification instead of the pre-qualifying shown on that page. Therefore I only get the times of the 9 slower drivers out of 13 who participated in the GP weekend.

Originally posted by AAA-Eagle
Also there is ChicaneF1 site in the Net.

As an example try this page: http://chicanef1.dyn...ralia&type=qual

The same with this page. The times of the 4 guys that pre-qualified are not the times of pre-qualify but the times of official qualification and due to that I still won't get the full results of pre-qualifying.

But thanks for trying to help

I have a copy of the official computerised results and timing service for the 1989 season.

It lists all the prequalifying lap times.

If I get some spare time this weekend I'll post them here.

I have the FIA Yearbook for 1989, so I’ll start you off with Brazil:

Brundle (Brabham) - 1:27.764
Modena (Brabham) - 1:28.147
Foitek (Eurobrun) - 1:29.604
Larini (Osella) - 1:29.679
Schneider (Zakspeed) - 1:30.417
Caffi (Dallara) - 1:30.747
Ghinzani (Osella) - 1:31.150
Weidler (Rial) - 1:31.964
Raphanel (Coloni) - 1:32.019
Winkelhock (AGS) - 1:32.982
Suzuki (Zakspeed) - 1:33.079
Johansson (Onyx) - 1:35.232
Gachot (Onyx) - 1:37.932

Notes: Only one AGS for Joachim Winkelhock, Gabriele Tarquini did not race the other car, nor did Philippe Streiff, the scheduled driver. Because of this, five cars go through from pre-qualifying (they shouldn’t have, but they did).

Suitably refreshed, here I am with San Marino:

Modena - 1:27.350
Brundle - 1:28.197
Caffi - 1:29.346
Larini - 1:29.787
Gachot - 1:30.384
Foitek - 1:30.620
Ghinzani - 1:30.631
Johansson - 1:30.647
Winkelhock - 1:32.071
Raphanel - 1:32.267
Suzuki - 1:32.287
Schneider - 1:32.855
Weidler - 1:36.480

OMG! Thank you VERY VERY much subh!!!!! - I owe you bigtime!

Keep up the good work

Monaco '89

1 Modena (Brabham) 1:26.957
2 Caffi (Dallara) 1:27.098
3 Raphanel (Coloni) 1:27.590
4 Brundle (Brabham0 1:27.774
5 Ghinzani (Osella) 1:27.795
6 Johansson (Onyx) 1:27.821
7 Larini (Osella) 1:28.555
8 Schneider (Zakspeed) 1:28.610
9 Gachot (Onyx) 1:28.897
10 Foitek (EuroBrun) 1:29.423
11 Weidler (Rial) 1:29.498
12 Suzuki (Zakspeed) 1:30.528
13 Winkelhock (AGS) 1:32.274

Mexico '89
1 Brundle (Brabham) 1:21.770
2 Modena (Brabham) 1:22.211
3 Caffi (Dallara) 1:22.876
4 Johansson (Onyx) 1:23.288
5 Gachot (Onyx) 1:23.752
6 Foitek (EuroBrun) 1:24.351
7 Larini (Osella) 1:24.392
8 Weidler (Rial) 1:24.966
9 Schneider (Zakspeed) 1:25.418
10 Suzuki (Zakspeed) 1:25.658
11 Ghinzani (Osella) 1:26.065
12 Winkelhock (AGS) 1:26.754
13 Raphanel (Coloni) 1:34.357

About 1988:
Pre-qualifying took place during the first free practice session, hence pre-qualifying times are the same as practice times.

1988, 1st half
Brazil, Canada, USA, France, Great Britain
No pre-Q in San Marino (Larini failed scrutineering), Monaco (Modena DQ after missing weight check), Mexico (Modena DQ for rear wing infringement)

De Cesaris (Rial)
Tarquini (Coloni)
Larrauri (EuroBrun)
Modena (EuroBrun)
Caffi (Scuderia Italia)

1988, 2nd half
Germany, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Japan, Australia

Larini (Osella)
Tarquini (Coloni)
Larrauri (EuroBrun)
Modena (EuroBrun)
Caffi (Scuderia Italia)

Leo, you are right about 1988!
As I forgot in my post #5, I have just updated it, in order to have a complete list.

Ciao,
Guido

Phoenix 1989:

Brundle - 1:32.293
Caffi - 1:32.992
Johansson - 1:33.768
Modena - 1:33.924
Ghinzani - 1:34.281
Raphanel - 1:35.1102*
Foitek - 1:35.805
Larini - 1:36.470
Winkelhock - 1:36.498
Weidler - 1:36.583
Schneider - 1:36.610
Suzuki - 1:37.776
Gachot - 1:45.530

* it does say this, but I suppose could be .102

Montréal 1989:

Modena - 1:23.398
Larini - 1:24.550
Johansson - 1:24.764
Caffi - 1:24.778
Brundle - 1:25.275
Gachot - 1:25.952
Foitek - 1:26.365
Ghinzani - 1:26.807
Schneider - 1:27.073
Winkelhock - 1:28.545
Weidler - 1:31.455
Suzuki - 1:53.327
Raphanel - 1:59.693

Paul Ricard 1989:

Gachot - 1:09.617
Johansson - 1:09.668
Caffi - 1:09.726
Modena - 1:09.917
Larini - 1:09.989
Brundle - 1:10.181
Weidler - 1:11.059
Schneider - 1:11.098
Ghinzani - 1:11.528
Raphanel - 1:11.953
Suzuki - 1:12.031
Foitek - 1:12.179
Winkelhock - 1:13.173

Silverstone 1989:

Gachot - 1:11.506
Larini - 1:11.766
Modena - 1:11.809
Brundle - 1:12.021
Johansson - 1:12.248
Caffi - 1:12.501
Foitek - 1:13.128
Ghinzani - 1:13.429
Dalmas (AGS) - 1:13.720
Schneider - 1:14.124
Raphanel - 1:14.206
Suzuki - 1:14.266
Weidler - 1:15.096

Hockenheim:

Gachot - 1:47.283
Johansson - 1:47.700
Alliot (Lola) - 1:47.746
Alboreto (Lola) - 1:47.919
Dalmas - 1:47.920
Larini - 1:48.301
Tarquini (AGS) - 1:48.558
Ghinzani - 1:48.564
Moreno (Coloni) - 1:48.567
Raphanel - 1:48.780
Foitek - 1:49.458
Suzuki - 1:49.527
Schneider - 1:50.455

Hungaroring 1989:

Johansson - 1:22.836
Ghinzani - 1:24.086
Alboreto - 1:24.323
Gachot - 1:24.412
Larini - 1:24.601
Alliot - 1:24.928
Dalmas - 1:25.571
Schneider - 1:25.613
Tarquini - 1:25.685
Moreno - 1:26.903
Foitek - 1:27.478
Suzuki - 1:28.113

Spa-Francorchamps 1989:

Johansson - 1:56.279
Alboreto - 1:57.509
Gachot - 1:57.720
Alliot - 1:57.748
Larini - 1:58.065
Ghinzani - 1:58.209
Moreno - 1:58.650
Tarquini - 1:59.432
Schneider - 2:00.713
Suzuki - 2:00.757
Bertaggia (Coloni) - ??????

Monza 1989:

Alliot - 1:26.623
Alboreto - 1:27.829
Larini - 1:27.980
Gachot - 1:28.344
Johansson - 1:28.588
Tarquini - 1:28.813
Moreno - 1:28.864
Ghinzani - 1:28.884
Schneider - 1:29.472
Suzuki - 1:30.085
Larrauri (Eurobrun) - 1:30.089
Dalmas - 1:30.382
Bertaggia - 1:31.606

Originally posted by subh

Spa-Francorchamps 1989:

Johansson - 1:56.279
Alboreto - 1:57.509
Gachot - 1:57.720
Alliot - 1:57.748
Larini - 1:58.065
Ghinzani - 1:58.209
Moreno - 1:58.650
Tarquini - 1:59.432
Schneider - 2:00.713
Suzuki - 2:00.757
Dalmas - 2:02,205
Foitek - 2:02.767
Bertaggia (Coloni) - 2:21,709

Originally posted by subh
Hungaroring 1989:

Johansson - 1:22.836
Ghinzani - 1:24.086
Alboreto - 1:24.323
Gachot - 1:24.412
Larini - 1:24.601
Alliot - 1:24.928
Dalmas - 1:25.571
Schneider - 1:25.613
Tarquini - 1:25.685
Moreno - 1:26.903
Foitek - 1:27.478
Suzuki - 1:28.113
Raphanel - 1:45,971

Originally posted by subh
Phoenix 1989:

Brundle - 1:32.293
Caffi - 1:32.992
Johansson - 1:33.768
Modena - 1:33.924
Ghinzani - 1:34.281
Raphanel - 1:35.110
Foitek - 1:35.805
Larini - 1:36.470
Winkelhock - 1:36.498
Weidler - 1:36.583
Schneider - 1:36.610
Suzuki - 1:37.776
Gachot - 1:45.530

Thanks - this book obviously has some omissions

Estoril 1989:

Johansson - 1:18.623
Alliot - 1:19.164
Moreno - 1:19.780
Alboreto - 1:19.869
Lehto (Onyx) - 1:20.880
Ghinzani - 1:21.021
Larraruri - 1:21.326
Tarquini - 1:21.881
Suzuki - 1:24.116
Schneider - 1:24.732
Bertaggia - 1:28.526
Larini - excl
Dalmas - excl

Jeréz 1989:

Larini - 1:23.566
Lehto - 1:23.958
Ghinzani - 1:24.586
Tarquini - 1:24.847
Johansson - 1:24.944
Moreno - 1:25.074
Alboreto - 1:25.646
Schneider - 1:25.673
Dalmas - 1:26.131
Suzuki - 1:26.609
Larrauri - 1:26.803
Bertaggia - 1:27.236
the book only shows times for three successful pre-qualifiers, but I assume Alliot was the fourth

Thanks all - I'm so happy that you have helped me out with this and I am thankful to you all! - Thanks again