Names, Titles and Terms

I have a lot of problems with translation of various names, titles and terms. Here are some of them.

First, races names like "Circuito di ...". For example, in 1948: Circuito di Vercelli, Circuito di Mantova, Circuito di Pescara, Circuito di Firenze, Circuito di Garda. Or French races in 1950: Circuit de Médoc, Circuit du Lac, Circuit de Grenoble, Circuit de l'Albigeois, Circuit de Rouen, Circuit de Périgueux. Even Brno races are titled "Masarykuv Okruh" at motorsport statistics sources. Was these names official? It looks like it's comfortable solution for motorsport historians when races didn't actually have any name like "Grand Prix ..." or "... Cup".

There is a page at http://www.grupponli...2011-6-1939.htm with cuts about Italian race in 1939. It took place in Rome at the street circuit called Circuito dell'Impero. Race name was always given as I Circuito dell'Impero (or I Trofeo dell'Impero). So that was official name of the race made by its organizers. Was it the same for other races with such a names?

As for Brno I doubt that Czech race organizers called the race Masarykuv Okruh. I guess that name was invented by historians who seeked for suitable name, similar to those used for French and Italian "unnamed" races.

There are various names for Albi races: Circuit de l'Albigeois or Grand Prix d'Albigeois. Which name is correct?

Hi Vladimir,you have hit on one of my favouite subjects! What you need to do is to find evidence from the time,like progammes ,posters,even the podium banner, if such a thing existed.
My favouite is the last round of the 1976 F1 championship held at Fuji. Almost all books and other reports call this the 'Japanese Grand Prix' but my evidence shows it was called 'F1 Race in Japan'
In reverse almost evey race in South America to this day is called a 'Grand Premio'
BTW does anyone know the Basque translation of 'Grand Prix' ?

There are various names for Albi races: Circuit de l'Albigeois or Grand Prix d'Albigeois. Which name is correct?

I believe Circuit de l'Albigeois. The term Grand Prix d'Albigeois is grammatically incorrect - would have to be Grand Prix de l'Albigeois.

I have 'Albi et ses Grands Prix 1928-1960' by Bernard Pelissier. Only race title I can find therin is Grand Prix d'Albi. Circuit map ;Circuit de Vitesse de l'Albigeois.Maybe some confusion here between name of race and name of circuit?

Originally posted by Rob29
I have 'Albi et ses Grands Prix 1928-1960' by Bernard Pelissier. Only race title I can find therin is Grand Prix d'Albi. Circuit map ;Circuit de Vitesse de l'Albigeois.Maybe some confusion here between name of race and name of circuit?

In fact it was a little more complex. The race was indefferently called GP de l'Albigeois or GP d'Albi a race run during the Circuit de Vitesse de l'Albigeois, including also motorbikes races.
In 1946 and 1948 the race was run in two heats as it was before the war and the organizers wanted such an event with two races, finding it was more spectacular. The only matter was that to be called a GRAND PRIX INTERNATIONAL, a race had to be run on at least 300 km and not in two or more heats. So in 1949 as they wanted two races there was a first heat on five laps called in fact qualifying race for establishing the starting grid! The race itself was on a little more than 300 km(301,9 km in fact). For 1950 they returned to two heats and lost the official name of Grand Prix; the event was called the XII° Circuit de Vitesse d'Albi. As it was, of course everybody, incuding newspapers and magazines, continued to call the race the Grand Prix d'Albi.

As for Brno I doubt that Czech race organizers called the race Masarykuv Okruh.

http://www.progcover...otor/brno35.jpg

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

The race was indefferently called GP de l'Albigeois or GP d'Albi a race run during the Circuit de Vitesse de l'Albigeois, including also motorbikes races.

Thank you for interesting story. What's difference between names "GP de l'Albigeois" and "GP d'Albi"?

Originally posted by sat
http://www.progcover...otor/brno35.jpg

Very interesting, but was "Masarikuv Okruh" title of the race or name of the racing circuit in this cover?

Look at how it may be with various events:

Crystal Palace Racing Circuit

June 24

Race for Grand Prix cars

...or...

Indianapolis Motor Speedway

May 30

500 Mile Race

...or...

Masaryk Racing Circuit in Brno

August 7

Brno Grand Prix race



The problem is nowdays people often think of the past in terms of current Formula One world. Every race has its name, so every race in the past must have name. I suppose many races in the past did not have names if they weren't Grands Prix or Cups races. They just had a kind of description: "sport car race", "100 mile race" etc. Annual high class races for distance over 300 kms called Grands Prix were organizad by motor clubs or may be rare individuals, and these Grands Prix had country's, province's, city's or person's name in title showing who is responsible for the prize. Everyone could organize little race for any car category and donate prize money to see his (or some organisation) name in race title. That was another kind of races names (Glover Trophy, Nuffield Trophy, Prix de la Marne).

Next are names under question. If owner of a racing circuit wanted to have race meeting, but didn't find any sponsor for prize money, he organized race anyway, but there were no someone or something which name must be put into race title. Then there was just a description like "Race meeting at Goodwood".

These are just my thoughts, I don't know how in fact it used to be.

As for French and Italian "Circuit de/Circuito di" names I'd like to ask French and Italian members about meanings. Were they names or descriptions? Russian language is more difficult than many European ones and word-building in Russian is less comfortable as in English. Words in English are quite short and it's very usual to connect two or more short words to get new one. In many cases we in Russian can't do that. So trying to express races names and descriptions in Russian I have to understand whole name's and every it's words meaning.

For example, if I say about 1934 Brno race I can't say that Stuck won "Masarikuv Okruh" because "Masarikuv Okruh" is name of the circuit. Stuck didn't won circuit, he won race and prize.

But may be in French and Italian it's normal to call race only with venues name and then to say that driver won "Circuito di ..."?

Very interesting, but was "Masarikuv Okruh" title of the race or name of the racing circuit in this cover?

First 5 races at Brno was calles "Masarykuv okruh", as autoclub has no right call it Grand Prix.

And no Masarik...

Well, it couldn't be a Grand Prix, it was just a race, and I'm trying to understand, did it have a name, if yes was it "Masarykuv okruh", if no was "Masarykuv okruh" just a description. Is it normal in Czech to call race only with name of a curcuit? In Russian it's impossible.

I've just found this thread and I remember that I had an issue regarding the names of Indianapolis 500 with Don Capps himself. It was on another forum, where we have something like a game answering the questions. I asked the following questions: "Who, where, when and in what car set a record in WDC GP for biggest ever gap from pole position time; and started in the race after this 'record' time? [Mark Blundell, 1995 Japanese GP, McLaren MP4-10B, gap 15'04,617] Where and when was set a record in WDC GP for smallest ever gap between the best and the worst time on the starting grid? [Mario Andretti, 1970 Spanish GP, March 701, gap 1,800]"

One of the members of that forum answered this one: "The biggest gap between pole and last on the grid: 1956 German GP at the Nurburgring, Ottorino Volonterio in his Maserati A6GCM did 14'17''1 which was 4'25''9 from Juan Manuel Fangio's pole time of 9'51''2 in his Lancia Ferrari D50; he started the race in 19th on the grid and was not classified being 6 laps down at the end of the 22 laps GP. The smallest gap - 1958 Indianapolis 500, Bill Cheesbourg (1'03''138) from his 33rd place on the grid, was only 1''483 from polesitter, Dick Rathmann (1'01''655)"

Then I wrote that both answers were wrong and I gave him a clue: "Indy 500 wasn't WDC GP - just WDC event or WDC race".

But Don Capps had another point and he wrote that 'Some of us may wish to differ with that statement, since the International Sweepstakes was just as much a Grand Prix as any of its European counterparts and was, indeed, the first Grand Prix ever to be run for the CSI World Championship. So, I think he may have gotcha.....'

Talking about Indy 500 as a GP event was more than a big surpise for me, so I said that 'In USA, as I know, Indy 500 mile race never has been known as a 'Grand Prix' (it simply doesn't have this status). But yes, in Europe some journalists/magazines sometimes wrote about Indianapolis International Motor Sweepstakes as a GP event, but officially Indy 500 never has been named as a GP...'

After my last reply Don wrote that he had to take serious issue with this: "For starters -- and I hate to pop your bubble, there is NO -- as in none -- definition as to what is or isn't a "Grand Prix." There is no body on the Earth which can grant an event the "official" status of a "Grand Prix."...

The lead item in the 25 June 1938 issue of the Official Bulletin of the American Automobile Association Contest Board is entititled, "1938 Indianapolis Grand Prix." In the Official Program of the International Sweepstakes that same year, 1938, T.E. "Pop" Myers, the General Manager of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, writes about the Speedway and the International Sweepstakes once more adopting the "International Formula" and mentions that he thought that everyone would soon regard the International Sweepstakes as "the American Grand Prix.""

Finally I decided not to argue with Don and said that 'Unfortunately, I didn't know about that Official Bulletin of the AAA Contest Board. When I wrote about the "official" GP status I simply meant how the race was called. For example in 1950 Indy 500 had this name: "XXXIVth Indianapolis International Motor Sweepstakes"; or another example: "IInd United States Grand Prix" (Sebring'59). And all WDC rounds except 11 Indy races maintain in their names "GP" part. That is why I didn't count the Int. Sweepstakes as WDC GP events...

But after reading the information you kindly provided I think that the definition problem concerned with Indy 500 races and Grand Prix status is unstable the same as the "Formula 1"/"Formula A" definition problem...

So, in order to remove the problem point, just add "except the International Sweepstakes" in my second question.'

That was the story...

Originally posted by Kvadrat
Well, it couldn't be a Grand Prix, it was just a race, and I'm trying to understand, did it have a name, if yes was it "Masarykuv okruh", if no was "Masarykuv okruh" just a description. Is it normal in Czech to call race only with name of a curcuit? In Russian it's impossible.

In english it certainly is. 'Motor Racing- Brands Hatch- Date' used to be common. Nowdays the name of the headline championship is used for bigger meetings-'BTCC championship car races'

Originally posted by Kvadrat


Thank you for interesting story. What's difference between names "GP de l'Albigeois" and "GP d'Albi"?

The race was run on two towns territories: Albi which is the main town of the Tarn district and Saint-Juéry which is in Albi's suburb. So GP d'Albi is where the race is run. Albigeois with a "A" is an old term which in Middle age designated all what was depending of Albi's county; nowadays it's the Albi's region.

And it was just my 500 th post!!!

Jean-Maurice - congratulations to your 500!
Keep them coming. They are quite informative and very much appreciated.


Vladimir - I have once tried to name all major races by their correct English name on my list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949.
If you click at my signature below, it will bring you to my list on Leif Snellman’s home page.

Hans, you have Masaryk Circuit for 1934, Masaryk GP for 1935 and 1937 and Czechoslovakian GP for 1949. Only last name seems undoubtful for me.

There's a children game in Russia called Broken Telephone in which every player whispers in next one's ear few words which next player should repeat to another one. Then last player tells what he finally heard. Often it's very different from what said first player and it sounds funny. Translation of French, Italian, Spanish, Czech and other names via their English expressions can be Broken Telephone, so I try to find historical and even linguistic origins of races names. And I'm still sure that most of names other than "Grand Prix ...", "... Cup", "... Trophy", "Prix ..." are just descriptions. I need to find there origins to express them correctly in Russian.

Jean-Maurice, thank you very much for interesting notes on Albi. Do you know why they used words Albi or Albigeios in various years? And what about question on "Circuit de ..." names in French? Is it normal to call races with only circuits names?

Definitely official names of races in Czechoslovakia as in Hans' list

Originally posted by Kvadrat
Hans, you have Masaryk Circuit for 1934, Masaryk GP for 1935 and 1937 and Czechoslovakian GP for 1949. Only last name seems undoubtful for me...

The names for the Czechoslovakian races are correct, as already so stated by sat. The names did indeed change over the years. The first time this event carried the national title was in 1949. I think it is a very good approach to read any information with a healthy amount of skepticism otherwise we are unable to correct some of the long standing mistakes. The information offered in my list has been checked and crosschecked by many competent people, who have also contributed excellent information to improve this list to its present level of accuracy. I am confident that the list is rather free of error.

If you find something wrong, please bring your proof to the table, so we can deliberate in a constructive manner.

Originally posted by Kvadrat
...I try to find historical and even linguistic origins of races names. And I'm still sure that most of names other than "Grand Prix ...", "... Cup", "... Trophy", "Prix ..." are just descriptions. I need to find there origins to express them correctly in Russian.

What I can recommend for you to do, to convince yourself of the truth of the information you intend to check for accuracy, is to do what many of the folks here at TNF have been done in the past. Make notes, make plans, then go to libraries of your choice and start searching in the primary sources only. You will need a great amount of time, money also since it will speed up your work doing photo copies or digital photography, whichever is the more appropriate, and then you need again more time and also patience. Eventually you will find what you are looking for.

I checked with Google and found my list of Grand Prix Winners 1895-1949 tranlated into Russian. I found that rather interesting, because I was never asked for permission and neither was Leif Snellman. Did you ever find that Russian list on the Internet? It may answer some of your questions.

Official names must be in Czech. Sorry if I look stupid, but learning motorsport history I see various and different kinds of names for races and try to understand their origins. If a race has OFFICIAL name it probably must be ONE OFFICIAL name. If there are more "official" names for the same race, one of them is definitely incorrect. Which one? The only chance to answer the question is to find origins of the name and such a names in various languages.

As for Brno races names. Tomáš Masaryk was first president of independent Czechoslovakia from 1918. Brno racing circuit was built in 1930. I don't know if it was already then named after Masaryk, who died in 1937. If curcuit got Masaryk's name already in 1930, there were some possible kinds of names of big international races in following years.

First of all they should decide to be or not to be their race an International Grand Prix. If yes they should find name for it. Country? Czechoslovakian Grand Parix. City? Brno Grand Prix? Circuit? Masaryk Circuit Grand Prix or Brno Circuit Grand Prix. Motor club? Something like Czechoslovakian Motor Club Grand Prix? Person? Masaryk Grand Prix.

So if races was called Masaryk Grand Prix, the person was its organizer or sponsor? Maybe Masaryk Grand Prix means "Grand Prix held at Brno racing circuit named after Tomáš Masaryk". And I'd like to know if Czech language allows to shorten long descriptions into such a names.

If the race isn't Grand Prix, it would have "Cup", "Prix" or "Trophy" NAME or just DESCRIPTION like "Race for Grand Prix cars at Masaryk racing circuit in Brno", which could be shortened to be more comfortable. If it's shortened to "Masaryk Circuit" ("Masarikuv Okruh") can anyone in the Earth explain this linguistic shortening process? Until this I still think "Masarikuv Okruh" isn't name or even description of the race, but is just an announcement of race's venue.

The inaugural race on September 28, 1930, the Masarykuv okruh (Masaryk Circuit) was successfully organized by the CAMS or Ceskoslovensky Automobilovy Klub pro Moravu a Slezsko (Czechoslovakian Automobile Club for Moravia and Silesia) with offices in the large town of Brno. The circuit, first called Brno-Ring, was then named after Czechoslovakia's commendable first Minister-President, Thomas Garrigue Masaryk. Because the challenge trophy carried Masaryk's name, the event gained significance of the highest order. The Brno race was the greatest motor sport event the Czechoslovakian Republic had ever seen.

Hans, you sent your last message while I was writing my previousa one...

I found Russian list you mention. It was made by TNF member flicker. He has links to you and your original list. That list doesn't answer question. One side of the problem is for several last years here in Russia correct spelling and writing is unpopular. In Soviet Union grammatical checking in publishing was very serious and one little incorrection in a book was so evident. After Iron Curtain fell and a business and kind of liberty or anarchy came here people became free not to use grammatical rules. My friend explained me that if they checked every word they never publish their magazine. Also there is a problem with names writing. The rules for names are almost totally different to ones used in English. Most translated publications is in English and people who badly learned in school and who now have freedom of incompetence adopted English rules for Russian names. It's real anarchy and reading books and magazines sometimes can't understand what they mean. The same name various magazines print in various ways.

I found the same problem in flicker's list. Moreover he didn't translate "Circuit" names at all (Montenero Circuit and so on). So it couldn't be confident reference.

I trust you and belive in that you checked your data. So can you teach me and explain origin of "Circuit de/Circuito di" names? Can you confirm it's normal to say "Gonzalez won Circuito di Modena"? I ask this question because in Russian such an expression is impossible and I am to find correct translation. We can't say Gonzalez won circuit because he won race.

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The inaugural race on September 28, 1930, the Masarykuv okruh (Masaryk Circuit) ... Because the challenge trophy carried Masaryk's name, the event gained significance of the highest order.

Why not Masaryk Trophy?

Originally posted by Kvadrat
...can you teach me and explain origin of "Circuit de/Circuito di" names? Can you confirm it's normal to say "Gonzalez won Circuito di Modena"? I ask this question because in Russian such an expression is impossible and I am to find correct translation. We can't say Gonzalez won circuit because he won race.

I am not really the right person to give an explanation to your question since English is my second language, German my first.

I think you could write:

"Gonzales won at Modena"
or
"...won the Modena race"
or
"... won at Circuito di Modena.

But this needs confirmation by one of our British linguists.

Originally posted by Kvadrat
[B]Hans, you sent your last message while I was writing my previousa one...
.

How about "Gonzalez won Circuito di Modena race"?

Originally posted by Kvadrat
...Why not Masaryk Trophy?

Leiningen, with reserve driver von Morgen, won the challenge trophy of the president of the Czechoslovakian Republic. I do not know the accurate name of the trophy but the trophy did not lend its name to the race like at some British of Italian events. At the Masaryk circuit they raced for money: The overall winner was to receive 80,000 Koruny, the second 40,000, and the third 20,000 Koruny. Additionally, for the first three in each group, there were prizes of 15,000, 10,000, 5,000 K. Besides these high monetary awards a great number of special prizes were donated. One was the Junek Memorial Prize for the best seventh lap [it went to von Morgen], another the CAMS prize for the best time of the cars up to 1100cc.

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
I am not really the right person to give an explanation to your question since English is my second language, German my first.

I think you could write:

"Gonzales won at Modena"
or
"...won the Modena race"
or
"... won at Circuito di Modena.

Yes! But not "... won Circuito di Modena" (yet another correct way may be "... won Circuito di Modena race"). Does that mean we need to completely rethink way of writing such a names in English?

Another expample found at brilliant 8W 1947 Italian Championship survey. Picture caption: "The start at Caracalla". Caracalla was Rome Emperor who built famous baths named after him Terme di Caracalla. 1947 Rome race was around or near Caracalla Baths and the circuit was called Circuito delle Terme di Caracalla. So we can't say that race was "at Caracalla".

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Leiningen, with reserve driver von Morgen, won the challenge trophy of the president of the Czechoslovakian Republic. I do not know the accurate name of the trophy but the trophy did not lend its name to the race like at some British of Italian events. At the Masaryk circuit they raced for money: The overall winner was to receive 80,000 Koruny, the second 40,000, and the third 20,000 Koruny. Additionally, for the first three in each group, there were prizes of 15,000, 10,000, 5,000 K. Besides these high monetary awards a great number of special prizes were donated. One was the Junek Memorial Prize for the best seventh lap [it went to von Morgen], another the CAMS prize for the best time of the cars up to 1100cc.

So the race DIDN'T HAVE A NAME, it just had a DESCRIPTION. You may write how you like, and your favorite name is Masarikuv Okruh. OK. And I now know that in Russian it's 1934 Brno race for Grand Prix car or just Brno race.

About Brno race and their name see this thread:

http://forums.atlasf...4204#post354204

is possible is that Kvadrat know better as all other do, but "Masarykuv okruh" was not description .

And please no Masarik more, it is completely incorrect in Czech language

Originally posted by Kvadrat
...So the race DIDN'T HAVE A NAME, it just had a DESCRIPTION. You may write how you like, and your favorite name is Masarikuv Okruh. OK. And I now know that in Russian it's 1934 Brno race for Grand Prix car or just Brno race.

It was the Masaryk Circuit Race at Brno. To call it Brno race [in English] is definitely wrong. I never saw this anywhere in primary sources. That is all I have on this subject.

Originally posted by st59cz
is possible is that Kvadrat know better as all other do, but "Masarykuv okruh" was not description .

And please no Masarik more, it is completely incorrect in Czech language

You don't need to be so ironical, I just ask for explanation, and the question seem to be quite difficult as there's no plain answer.

Sorry for Masarik.

Hope this link will work: Marcel Lehoux information

So "okruh" in Czech means either "circuit" and "race"? It would be satisfactory explanation.

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
It was the Masaryk Circuit Race at Brno. To call it Brno race [in English] is definitely wrong.

I said about Russian.

Miloš Skorepa wrote in “Dejiny automobilovych závodù” on page 316
Masarykùv okruh – Velká cena Ceskoslovenska

By digging in my archives I found this about the 1949 race

1 to 3 are from the official entry form. Note it was written in Czeck and French!

4 is from a Brno newspaper.









Expect this can help.

I think there are several different issues here

The correct name of a race can only be in the native language as it is not always possible to translate literally.
For example, let us consider what was the world's premier race (premier in the English sense of 'foremost' rather than the French basic meaning of 'first').
The French used to title their premier race 'Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France' often shortened to 'Grand Prix de l'ACF' then later it became 'Grand Prix de France'
In English as we form a possessive differently it would generally be called 'French Grand Prix' for both official titles, although some would refer to the earlier title as 'Grand Prix of the ACF', which reads in English as very clumsy.

So, in Russian you can either
(a) Transcribe the name into the Cyrillic alphabet without translation. this presupposes that there is a 1 to 1 relationship between letters which I suspect is not the case (C,K,S?)
(b) Translate the name literally into Russian. Analogous to the English 'Grand Prix of the ACF'
© Translate into colloquial Russian, like the English 'French Grand Prix'. But as in English you lose the distinction between 'GP de l'ACF' and 'GP de France'

You then encounter the difficulty that a race was not always known or referred to by its official name. For example:

As a boy I used to go to the 'Nakuru Motor Races' four times a year. That was the name on the advertisments and on the programme cover. The meeting was so named to distinguish it from the 'Nakuru Races', which were horse races. (That probably tells you something about social priorities in a British colony!). The main race was for Formula Libre, or Formule Libre if you prefer the original French version. At one meeting it was titled 'The Kenya Grand Prix', at another 'The Nakuru Grand Prix', at another it was sometimes 'The Coca Cola Trophy' but at the fourth meeting it had no name. But nobody, not even the newspaper, bothered about the race title - It was always 'Vic Preston won the main race at Nakuru in a Lotus XX' or 'Henry Ayub won the motorcycle race at Nakuru on a Norton'. The only place the race title would appear was in the race results.

It was similar in England. At the May non-championship Silverstone meeting, which was run by the BRDC,the main race was the (non-championship) Formula 1 race. The meeting was sponsored by the Daily Express . Consequently this race was generally referred to as the 'Daily Express Trophy' race but I believe its official title was the 'BRDC International Trophy' as it carried on from a sequence of prewar races of that name. Possibly at this time its official title was the 'Daily Express International Trophy'. But it was always referred to as the 'Daily Express Trophy' . As sponsors of the meeting the Daily Express also presented trophies for these races so it was quite correct to see 'Graham Hill in a Lotus XI won the Daily Express Trophy sports car race'.

On the other hand, the other pre-season race at Brands Hatch was sponsored by the Daily Mail and officially titled the 'Daily Mail Race of Champions' but was almost universally known as the 'Race of Champions'.

As for the word 'Circuit' - in English it can mean a track as in 'Isle of Man TT Circuit' but it can also mean an event as in the 'Circuit of Ireland' rally. I believe the French and Italians have a similar dual usage.

It's a minefield and I think the only way you can handle it is with copious footnotes to your database.

Jean-Maurice, if you have higher resolution newspaper scan, please send me at v.kovalenko@rfc.tomsk.ru. I can see words "Masarykovu okruhu", but need to see the rest of the sentence.

D-Type, I agree with your opinion. In Russian, we have the same ways of foreign names expression. But we have some problems because of our names writing rules.

In English all words in a name begin with a capital letter. In Russian only first word of a name do. But whole name must be inside inverted commas, for example: "International Trophy". If name describes event or thing it's written without commas. Another example. There's Russian translation of Grand Prix term - like English 'Grand Prize'. Grand Prize may be cup or money. It's prize for winning race. So direct meaning of 'British Grand Prize' term is cup or money. If we call race 'British Grand Prize', we must add inverted commas, and correct writing must be "British Grand Prize". But there's also transcription of Grand Prix term which transcribed back into Latin letters is 'gran-pri'. This term means high level competition. And 'British Grand Prix (gran-pri)' is a direct description of a race so it's written without inverted commas.

Using such a rules I try to express in Russian every race's name and found that some races have strange names looking like just descriptions. These names are subject of this topic.

Czech and Russian are similar slavic languages so I can read Czech texts and understand some of content. There's word in Russian similar to Czech 'okruh'. In Russian it's pronounced 'okrug' and means 'county'. i.e. area around certain place. Related words in Russian have related meanings: round, lap. So I thought "Masarykuv Okruh" is a name of the circuit, and this is the same translation problem as the one with "Circuit de/Circuito di" names.

Hans, this might be the same sequence of possible expressions we discussed earlier:

"Stuck won at Brno"
or
"...won the Brno race"
or
"... won at Masarukuv Okruh"
or
"... won Masarukuv Okruh race".

But can we say "... won Masarikuv Okruh"?

To answer we must ask Czech friends about Masarikuv Okruh name meaning. I guess name "Masarikuv Okruh" in Czech texts belongs only to the circuit name.

So now I understand little better. Czech and Russian are both slavic languages, but not all what see similar is similar really. In Czech okruh is circuit (or "kolco" in Russian). But also you can say
"Hradecky okruh" and you mean that it is race in Hradec Kralove, who is an track also called "Hradecky okruh", naturally not permanent at that time. And when organiser call his race so it is absolutely OK in Czech.

'Grand Prize' was only ever used in the USA -American Grand Prize 1908-16.
The french title first used in 1906 translates as 'Grand Prize of the Automobile Club of France.Which became known as THE Grand Prix worldwide. Nowdays of course we are not even allowed to know how grand the prize is.Should really be the ...Bernie Ecclestone Benifit race.

I looked at higher resolution scans sent by Jean-Maurice and found that in 1949 names "Masarikuv Okruh" was used only for circuit.

"Ve středu byly uzavřeny přihlášky k nedělnim závodûm na Masarikuvě okruhu s výsledkem". I think this sentence is about Wednesday announcement of drivers list for Sunday's race at 'Masarikuv Okruh'. 'Závod na Masarikuvě okruhu' is 'Masaryk Circuit race', isn't it?

There's also message about 'závod na goodvoodském okruhu', i.e. race at Goodwood circuit.

st59cz, you said what I wanted to know: it's normal to call 'Masarikuv Okruh' race with the same name 'Masarikuv Okruh'. But when you say 'Masarikuv Okruh' how can you determine whether it race or circuit? And can you find other Czech quotations with 'Masarikuv Okruh' as a race name?

Originally posted by Rob29
'Grand Prize' was only ever used in the USA -American Grand Prize 1908-16.

I know. And this is another very interesting question: why in Britain term Grand Prix was in use from the beginning instead of its translation Grand Prize.

The English translation of 'grand prix' is more accurately 'big prize'. At some stage we borrowed or inherited the word 'grand' from the French to describe something big or important. It's a tricky usage as we only use it sometimes for events, buildings, personages, but not for everyday objects.

We probably carried on using the word 'Grand Prix' in the same way as we did 'Kaiserpreis', 'Mille Miglia' and 'Targa Florio'. Using the word in its native language as it didn't need translation.

"Ve středu byly uzavřeny přihlášky k nedělnim závodûm na Masarikuvě okruhu s výsledkem". I think this sentence is about Wednesday announcement of drivers list for Sunday's race at 'Masarikuv Okruh'. 'Závod na Masarikuvě okruhu' is 'Masaryk Circuit race', isn't it?

It was two races on that Sunday at Masaryk circuit:


Velka cena Ceskoslovenska (F1 - 27 entries)

and

Cena mesta Brna (sportcars - 33 entries)

And was often says before, that it was first GP of Czechoslovakia at all .

Originally posted by Rob29
...Nowdays of course we are not even allowed to know how grand the prize is.Should really be the ...Bernie Ecclestone Benifit race.

Originally posted by D-Type


It was similar in England. At the May non-championship Silverstone meeting, which was run by the BRDC,the main race was the (non-championship) Formula 1 race. The meeting was sponsored by the Daily Express . Consequently this race was generally referred to as the 'Daily Express Trophy' race but I believe its official title was the 'BRDC International Trophy' as it carried on from a sequence of prewar races of that name. Possibly at this time its official title was the 'Daily Express International Trophy'. But it was always referred to as the 'Daily Express Trophy' . As sponsors of the meeting the Daily Express also presented trophies for these races so it was quite correct to see 'Graham Hill in a Lotus XI won the Daily Express Trophy sports car race'.

'Grand Prize' was only ever used in the USA -American Grand Prize 1908-16.

Actually, there was an interesting problem that cropped up concerning The Grand Prize Race and the newly dominent planked board tracks. With W.K. Vanderbilt II adamant about his Cup race being held only on a road circuit and the ACA likewise making it clear to the Cup Committee its wishes for the race to be held only on a road course, the speedway promoter were a but put out by not having the opportunity to run either of these events. Despite many requests and many rejections for The Grand Prize to be held on a speedway it was finally worked out that there would be a "Speedway Grand Prize" event at the Mayewood/Chicago Speedway in October 1916, one of the few times I can find the term "Grand Prize" used outside the ACA Gold Cup race.

Gigleux,

Is my memory correct when I said that the supporting races were titled 'Daily Express Trophy Sports Car Race', etc

Originally posted by D-Type
Gigleux,

Is my memory correct when I said that the supporting races were titled 'Daily Express Trophy Sports Car Race', etc

And what I posted was only to show you were right!

Originally posted by st59cz



It was two races on that Sunday at Masaryk circuit:


Velka cena Ceskoslovenska (F1 - 27 entries)

and

Cena mesta Brna (sportcars - 33 entries)

And was often says before, that it was first GP of Czechoslovakia at all .

What does word 'mesta' mean in this case? In Russian 'mesto' means 'place', it's chanched form 'mesta' means 'of the place'.

I found an information in book 'Mistrovství Evropy cestovních automobilù' that from 1937 there were Velka cena Ceskoslovenska race for over 1500 cc cars and Velka cena Brna for sport cars under 1500 cc.

Also I found little Czech dictionaly in my library. It says word 'okruh' means: 1) circle; 2) county; 3) circular road.

mesto = city (Prize of city Brno)


In 1937 it was Velka cena Masarykova for GP cars and Cena mesta Brna for Voiturettes (cars under 1500 ccm).

Originally posted by st59cz
Velka cena Masarykova

In this case did 'Masarykova' belong to Masaryk himself or to Masarikuv Okruh? Did he die before or after the race?

Originally posted by Kvadrat


In this case did 'Masarykova' belong to Masaryk himself or to Masarikuv Okruh? Did he die before or after the race?

Tomas Masaryk died the 14th of september 1937. The race was the 26th of september.